Discipline

[NickyB]

Hello all. Please can I ask your opinions/advice.

 

DS (6 - HFA) has had behviour problems for some time - specifically hitting and kicking if he doesn't get his own way. Me and DH have decided that it's time we took control of the situation, as he seems to think he's in charge

 

We have started to send him to sit on the stairs (on the 3rd step, to be precise!) if he hits or kicks, as it was the most boring place we could think of sending him. As you can imagine, he doesn't like this (which is the idea!!), and he gets VERY angry when we enforce it - to the point where he completely loses it, and screams uncontrollably. He will resist sitting on the 3rd step, and will scream and fight to move to another one. Our feeling is that we must stick to our guns and insist he does what we say.

Earlier today, I had to send him to the step, and it took a while to get him there, then he burst into tears and held me really tight for the time that he was there. Then once the time was up, he hit me again so back to the step he went.

The hitting and kicking has actually got more frequent since we started this, which I think is him trying to see if we mean it. He keeps saying 'you won't send me to the step if I hit you' and then does just that.

 

I'm having a moment of self- doubt and wondered if you think it's a reasonable punishment, and am I being a bit pedantic insisting on a particular step. I just feel like I want to have complete control, rather than letting him decide where to sit.

 

Not sure if any of that made sense, but I'd welcome your opinions and advice if you managed to understand it

 

Thanks

 

Nicky <'>

 

 

 

 

[frogslegs]

I think you are doing the right thing. You cannot let him control the family. You need to explain when you are both calm that you do not accept whatever behaviour you have a problem with and the consequences. When he hits you put him on step or in a room where he is safe and can scream and have a tantrum without harming himself (I had to use the bathroom for my son and hold the door so that he would not get out until calmed down).

When finished (6 years old=6 minutes time out)praise him as soon as he is good. Sometimes it is easy to fall into a negative rutt of bad behaviour that makes everyone into a bad mood all the time, so when crisis is finished, forget it and move on and use positive language for any good thing done even when he is simply playing quietly.

When my son was young, his behaviour was completely out of control and we used (through health visitor) Webster Stratton method which I would recommend to anyone. Good luck.

[Karen A]

Hi Nicky .I think you are doing exactly the right thing.If you have said the third step then stick with it.We found that any attempts to establish control are always met with resistance at first.However if you given in on the third step rule that in my book is like showing that you will give an inch...which just invites another attempt to see how far the line can be pushed.I know it is hard work at first.However if you both stick to the third step rule then your son will cotton on after a while that you are serious.Karen.

 

 

[sonj186]

Hi NIcky,

 

i also use the step, cam gets 1 warning then its off to the step. i dont wait with him though he has to sit it out on his own for 6 mins (1 for each year off age) and the time starts when he is sitting quietly i also remove any toys etc that he could amuse himself with it works for us now the threat off going to the step is usualy enough, but you have to follow it through and stick to your guns with it.

 

sonj

[NickyB]

Thanks everyone. It's reassuring to see your comments - I think that's all I needed, really. It's just so bloomin' hard when you're in the middle of it and it's difficult to see an end

 

frogslegs, you're absolutely right about getting into a cycle of focussing on the bad behaviour. We are also praising every bit of good behaviour, and trying to move on from a meltdown as soon as we can.

 

What would I do without this place?

 

<'> <'> <'>

[dooday24]

sending u a big hug nicky u r doin really well

and i think i need to take a leaf out yr book in dealing with reece bad behavour as u say it is soo hard but we need to perservere

 

goodluck with it all we can do this im always arouind if yer wanna chat

 

love donnaxxxxx

[Sally44]

One thing I wanted to mention incase it is relevant is that sometimes our children can keep showing bad behaviour because they are seeking the predictable outcome.

I have discussed this with our AAT as well (in the past) and she has also come across it in schools. Ie. the child learns that if they misbehave something happens, and sometimes that punishment can become a reward (eventhough we don't see it or intend it to be that way).

So a child struggling in the class (not understanding the language or task requirements of lessons) might misbehave to be sent to the headteachers office, or for time out to escape the less structured environment they could not cope with.

I have known of other children to misbehave because they get their parents undivided attention then and sometimes more physical and predictable contact.

I'm not saying that is the case. And you are right in what you are doing. But i'll just put it out there for you to consider.

Does your son understand that what he does hurts you? He might not understand that. My son used to bite until I bit him back one day (not hard, but enough for him to understand what he was doing to me). He got very upset with me and said 'you have hurt me'. And I told him 'when you bite me it hurts just like it hurts you'. And he did stop after that. He does still hurt me unintentionally because he doesn't understand how I feel things. He also has sensory integration disorder, and his senses are all over the place.

I use my son's bedroom as a time out place. Not as punishment. I use timeout to try to stop it escalating on both sides ie. him getting angry and me getting impatient with his non-compliance. So, if he misbehaves he gets a slow count to 3, by which time he should have complied. If he doesn't he goes to his room for around 8 minutes (a min for each year). And I tell him why he is going to his room ie. because you did xxx and did not stop when I told you to. Now go to your room to calm down. Then I will go to speak with him about what happened. If he is not calm I will leave him again for another 5 minutes, until he is calm enough to talk about what happened. This seems to work. I don't think I would manage to contain my son on one step, because usually when he gets upset he will start thrashing about and getting abusive. So in his room he can move about - but I leave him on his own to think about what has happened. I find he just keeps ranting if I am there.

[Sally44]

I forgot to say why I posted my previous post!

In one of your posts you said that you had sat on the stairs and your child had hugged you for the duration (and you had probably hugged him back).

He might like that. And if he likes that type of deep pressure and he knows he can get it if he hits you, then that will be what he does. If he does like deep pressure and hugging, then teach him an appropriate way to ask for it. You could start by asking him if you can hug him - then ask him if it makes him feel good. Then you would eventually work towards him asking you to hug him.

But he may also be just repeating the scenario a number of times to establish that that is the routine that follows. So consistency is vital. But I think it would be better not to be sat with him. He should be on his own during timeout.

 

[NickyB]

I forgot to say why I posted my previous post!

In one of your posts you said that you had sat on the stairs and your child had hugged you for the duration (and you had probably hugged him back).

He might like that. And if he likes that type of deep pressure and he knows he can get it if he hits you, then that will be what he does. If he does like deep pressure and hugging, then teach him an appropriate way to ask for it. You could start by asking him if you can hug him - then ask him if it makes him feel good. Then you would eventually work towards him asking you to hug him.

But he may also be just repeating the scenario a number of times to establish that that is the routine that follows. So consistency is vital. But I think it would be better not to be sat with him. He should be on his own during timeout.

 

Thanks sally. That's a very interesting point. He does ask for hugs quite regularly, but I hadn't though of as him seeking out 'deep pressure'. I'll have to be careful that he doesn't see it as a reward for bad behaviour. Thanks for that.

 

[Mum of 3]

Hi Nicky,

 

I know just where you're at right now. We had a very similar rule to yours, but when we told the Ed Psych that we were having such trouble getting him to stay on the step, they told me to stop bothering-he just doesn't 'get' cause and effect. This is true, but unfortunately, they weren't really able to replace it with anything that works when G goes into meltdown.

 

I haven't any good advice, as I'm struggling to deal with this myself. I have found that totally ignoring G can work, as can telling him, 'right, I'm bored with this now, I don't want to play anymore...' etc, when he is trying to get a rise out of me. As he gets older, he is beginning to be able to be 'talked out of' bad behaviour if I catch it in time.

 

Like this morning, he was just winding up to a paddy, so he wouldn't have to get ready for school, and I reminded him how much nicer it is in the morning when he doesn't have a paddy. A bit of negotiation (I agreed to help him get dressed, which he likes), and we were on our way. At the same time, he got lots of big squeezes for co-operating and being a 'good boy', so he got the positive reinforcement.

 

Doesn't always work that well though...

[KarenT]

J never got the time-out step either, it just made matters horribly worse and we stopped it. Once J gets to meltdown there's nothing you can do but let it run its course, and our best action is to not let it get that far in the first place. Prevention, in our experience, is far more effective than dealing with the aftermath.

 

Personally, I think you have to make a judgement as to whether the child is winding you up or is genuinely distressed about something. The first needs disciplinary measures to teach them it's not appropriate (consequences etc) and the second needs support and reassurance. But it can take years to work out the difference as our children can be very manipulative.

 

We looked at triggers that set him off and made plans to work around them, then teach him how to cope with them, and strategies for calming down if he does lose control. Every child is different and although time-out is the recommended first step strategy, there are no guarantees that it will work for everyone. You just have to find out what's best for your child, and there are no overnight solutions, I'm afraid!

 

Karen

x

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Good for you both. Stick to your guns. I found with my son that his behaviour actually got worsen before it got better. He then came to realise that I meant business and was fully prepared to carry out and impose any sanctions that I said I would.

 

I give my son two warnings just so as there's no mistaking what's been said. I must confess that I tried time out but felt for R it didn't work (he's physically too large to handle and the situation can quickly escalate into something physical), since the idea is to get them to sit and calm down, think about their actions, and basically get them to control their emotions. Myself and my son attended a day twice a week over 3 months. It was a programme based on Carolyn Webster-Stratton's programme. What wasn't made known to me at the time was the fact that the programme is not designed for children on the spectrum. It can benefit them, but there's no specific research based upon ASD kids. I discovered that because I emailed Carolyn. Basically, there were some strategies that worked and others that created more problems than we originally had. But, instead of time out, if R kicks off or behaves badly, he's warned that he'll get X taken away for the remainder of the day (this is a sanction on the programme, but usually only after time out). He can behave horrendously as a result, but will suddenly switch out of it, which makes me think it works for us. I believe that it's also important o give rewards for good behaviour.

 

Best wishes.

 

Caroline.

Edited April 20, 2009 by cmuir

[baddad]

Thanks sally. That's a very interesting point. He does ask for hugs quite regularly, but I hadn't though of as him seeking out 'deep pressure'. I'll have to be careful that he doesn't see it as a reward for bad behaviour. Thanks for that.

 

 

Hi Nicky - offering another spin on that that has nothing to do with deep pressure. If he hugged you all the time he was on the step then that meant you didn't leave him alone there/weren't enforcing the sanction. He may not have liked the cuddle as much as his freedom, but an enforced cuddle rather than an enforced sanction is probably preferable in his mind. I'm all for all the positive reinforcement stuff being mentioned - praise when he's good etc - but the reality is that doesn't work without concrete boundaries and clear sanctions... One thing everyone agrees upon is that the behaviours arise from a 'gap in understanding'. How can you bridge a 'gap in understanding' by making it more complex and confusing? Naughty goes on step is easy. Naughty might go on step if all else fails and mum/dad get so frustrated that they give up on the 'nice' methods is anything but easy. Children do not have the same powers of reasoning as adults, and they can't attain those powers of reasoning for themselves. Trying to treat children as responsible, reasonable adults is like trying to teach a fish to walk: they don't have the capacity, inclination or understanding for it.

 

L&P

 

BD

[NickyB]

Hi Nicky - offering another spin on that that has nothing to do with deep pressure. If he hugged you all the time he was on the step then that meant you didn't leave him alone there/weren't enforcing the sanction. He may not have liked the cuddle as much as his freedom, but an enforced cuddle rather than an enforced sanction is probably preferable in his mind. I'm all for all the positive reinforcement stuff being mentioned - praise when he's good etc - but the reality is that doesn't work without concrete boundaries and clear sanctions... One thing everyone agrees upon is that the behaviours arise from a 'gap in understanding'. How can you bridge a 'gap in understanding' by making it more complex and confusing? Naughty goes on step is easy. Naughty might go on step if all else fails and mum/dad get so frustrated that they give up on the 'nice' methods is anything but easy. Children do not have the same powers of reasoning as adults, and they can't attain those powers of reasoning for themselves. Trying to treat children as responsible, reasonable adults is like trying to teach a fish to walk: they don't have the capacity, inclination or understanding for it.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

thanks, BD - food for thought

[thomastank]

Hello, I wanted some advice too so thought I'd add to this thread too, hope you don't mind?

 

I'm reading 1-2-3 Magic - anyone done it? It tells you to give the child 3 warnings for behaviour and then time out, so much the same as what you are doing. We've had nightmares with the step and the tantrums get worse but 123 recommends that you send them to their room. I've sent my son up twice today and both times he's been upset but calmed down to do his 4 minutes so it all seems good, the only thing is, am I being too 'kind' by sending him to his room rather than the step? (he has toys in his room). The next time I was counting him he stopped by no. 2 so he obviously didn't want to go back to his room.

 

thanks for your help (again). . . .!!!

[Karen A]

Hello, I wanted some advice too so thought I'd add to this thread too, hope you don't mind?

 

I'm reading 1-2-3 Magic - anyone done it? It tells you to give the child 3 warnings for behaviour and then time out, so much the same as what you are doing. We've had nightmares with the step and the tantrums get worse but 123 recommends that you send them to their room. I've sent my son up twice today and both times he's been upset but calmed down to do his 4 minutes so it all seems good, the only thing is, am I being too 'kind' by sending him to his room rather than the step? (he has toys in his room). The next time I was counting him he stopped by no. 2 so he obviously didn't want to go back to his room.

 

thanks for your help (again). . . .!!!

 

 

If the room appears to be working and as long as he does not regard going there as fun I would not change it if it works.As long as he is not just calming down because he has found the toys I would not worry.I think what is important is that you follow through on what you have said.If you change it it is more likely to be confusing.

We have used both the step and the bedroom at various times.I have no option now but to remove myself from the room and shut the door.Ben is as tall as me. Karen.

 

[baddad]

Hello, I wanted some advice too so thought I'd add to this thread too, hope you don't mind?

 

I'm reading 1-2-3 Magic - anyone done it? It tells you to give the child 3 warnings for behaviour and then time out, so much the same as what you are doing. We've had nightmares with the step and the tantrums get worse but 123 recommends that you send them to their room. I've sent my son up twice today and both times he's been upset but calmed down to do his 4 minutes so it all seems good, the only thing is, am I being too 'kind' by sending him to his room rather than the step? (he has toys in his room). The next time I was counting him he stopped by no. 2 so he obviously didn't want to go back to his room.

 

thanks for your help (again). . . .!!!

 

Personally, I think the basic principles of 1 2 3 magic, adapted for the individual and used in conjunction with all the other stuff (star charts etc), are absolutely spot on...

I think the difference between room/step is a grey area... My own son started with just a hallway door being held closed on him for 2 to 2 minute intervals, then moved to the step (by choice) when he could face the shut door without trying to kick it down and then progressed to his room by choice when he needed longer periods of Time Out...

Stopping at 2 or 3 is what it's all about - people misunderstand and say 'why does he/she always make me get to 2/3, without really considering the fact that before 1,2,3, Magic they could have given two dozen warnings without it making a blind bit of difference!

 

Glad to hear it's starting to come good.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

(Oh PS Nicky B - that bit about not trying to reason/kids not being able to reason is me paraphrasing one of the basic principles of 123 Magic )

Edited April 20, 2009 by baddad

[jordansmum33ok]

One thing I wanted to mention incase it is relevant is that sometimes our children can keep showing bad behaviour because they are seeking the predictable outcome.

I have discussed this with our AAT as well (in the past) and she has also come across it in schools. Ie. the child learns that if they misbehave something happens, and sometimes that punishment can become a reward (eventhough we don't see it or intend it to be that way).

So a child struggling in the class (not understanding the language or task requirements of lessons) might misbehave to be sent to the headteachers office, or for time out to escape the less structured environment they could not cope with.

I have known of other children to misbehave because they get their parents undivided attention then and sometimes more physical and predictable contact.

I'm not saying that is the case. And you are right in what you are doing. But i'll just put it out there for you to consider.

Does your son understand that what he does hurts you? He might not understand that. My son used to bite until I bit him back one day (not hard, but enough for him to understand what he was doing to me). He got very upset with me and said 'you have hurt me'. And I told him 'when you bite me it hurts just like it hurts you'. And he did stop after that. He does still hurt me unintentionally because he doesn't understand how I feel things. He also has sensory integration disorder, and his senses are all over the place.

I use my son's bedroom as a time out place. Not as punishment. I use timeout to try to stop it escalating on both sides ie. him getting angry and me getting impatient with his non-compliance. So, if he misbehaves he gets a slow count to 3, by which time he should have complied. If he doesn't he goes to his room for around 8 minutes (a min for each year). And I tell him why he is going to his room ie. because you did xxx and did not stop when I told you to. Now go to your room to calm down. Then I will go to speak with him about what happened. If he is not calm I will leave him again for another 5 minutes, until he is calm enough to talk about what happened. This seems to work. I don't think I would manage to contain my son on one step, because usually when he gets upset he will start thrashing about and getting abusive. So in his room he can move about - but I leave him on his own to think about what has happened. I find he just keeps ranting if I am there.

 

 

hi, this is totally my son.. on all his school reports he has to be held to be calm

im thinking that its actually became the norm for him and he likes it..plus way out off something he finds difficult..

 

At home when he has a red mist moment i tell him straight away go to your room... ok he hits out at objects on the way and in his room im know he is swearing shouting.. banging his head.. but he is getting no action from me

he calms down then he comes down an says sorry we then discuss why he got angry and also the payment plan for breakages!

 

he is 12..