Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • Kris

      Depression, Mental Health and Crisis Support   06/04/2017

      Depression, Mental Health and Crisis Support   Depression and other mental health difficulties are common amongst people on the autistic spectrum and their carers.   People who are affected by general mental health difficulties are encouraged to receive and share information, support and advice with other forum members, though it is important to point out that this exchange of information is generally based on personal experience and opinions, and is not a substitute for professional medical help.   There is a list of sources of mental health support here: <a href="http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=18801" target="_blank">Mental Health Resources link</a>   People may experience a more serious crisis with their mental health and need urgent medical assistance and advice. However well intentioned, this is not an area of support that the forum can or should be attempting to offer and we would urge members who are feeling at risk of self-harm or suicide to contact either their own GP/health centre, or if out of hours contact NHS Direct on 0845 4647 or to call emergency services 999.   We want to reassure members that they have our full support in offering and seeking advice and information on general mental health issues. Members asking for information in order to help a person in their care are seeking to empower both themselves and those they represent, and we would naturally welcome any such dialogue on the forum.   However, any posts which are deemed to contain inference of personal intent to self-harm and/or suicide will be removed from the forum and that person will be contacted via the pm system with advice on where to seek appropriate help.   In addition to the post being removed, if a forum member is deemed to indicate an immediate risk to themselves, and are unable to be contacted via the pm system, the moderating team will take steps to ensure that person's safety. This may involve breaking previous confidentiality agreements and/or contacting the emergency services on that person's behalf.   Sometimes posts referring to self-harm do not indicate an immediate risk, but they may contain material which others find inappropriate or distressing. This type of post will also be removed from the public forum at the moderator's/administrator's discretion, considering the forum user base as a whole.   If any member receives a PM indicating an immediate risk and is not in a position (or does not want) to intervene, they should forward the PM to the moderating team, who will deal with the disclosure in accordance with the above guidelines.   We trust all members will appreciate the reasoning behind these guidelines, and our intention to urge any member struggling with suicidal feelings to seek and receive approproiate support from trained and experienced professional resources.   The forum guidelines have been updated to reflect the above.   Regards,   The mod/admin team
bid

Genetic key to autism found?

Recommended Posts

Karen A   
As i said - numbers sound scary... I've just looked similar statistics to yourself on the web, but in context, and in developing countries (with poor standards of food/hygience/medical support etc) fatalities from measles in typically stand at between 1 - 5 % of those infected.

In europe despite regular outbreaks deaths are rare: in 2005 in the whole of the european union - 12 fatalities.... this is not from a source that 'opposes' inoculation, it was from the first google hit i found that had statistics, and is in fact taken from a report on the efficacy of the immunisation programme:

 

linky plinky

 

Again, as i said, the statistics on the cervical cancer are so tiny that the only way the manufacturer's could 'pitch' the idea was to personalise it. Of course that will convince anyone who has been personally touched by the illness, but remember this vaccine only protects against one type of cervical cancer and that is one that had an absolutely miniscule mortality rate in the first place: effectively it's like including swine flu in statistics for 'death by colds'. Another way of looking at it would be to say that all car travel should be banned - because the number of fatalities per head attributable to RTA's among those who travel regularly are, statistically, much much higher than the number of fatalities that could be attributed to this type of cervical cancer among the half of the population who could develop it. I hope you will realise that I am in no way trivialising the impact that cervical cancer would have on someone who developed it or on their family. I am just commenting on the way that statistics can be manipulated to steer public opinion and perceptions.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

 

Hi.I should probably declare another conflict of interest on this.When I trained as a distict nurse the course was a joint course with health visitors.As promoting immunisation for under fives is a large part of the health visitors job it would be unusual if I was anti the MMR.I expect you probably think I was brain washed. :lol:;) Karen.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Karen A   
We've got measles and mumps here at the moment - and they appear to be quite dangerous - enough to hospitalise some students and we all have to have the MMR. (Well I guess they can't force, but there doesn't seem to be an opt out clause, which I think it good given the close proximity students live in).

 

I know personal anecdotes aren't facts, but my sister was the only one to have the MMR (as a baby - I had mine as a student a few years ago) in our family and she's the only NT. Neither my brother nor I had the MMR and we're both ASD.

 

Hi.Thanks for confirming regarding mumps.I thought I had heard about cases of mumps too but was not certain.A few years ago mumps was on the verge of extinction.

As mumps is more of an issue for men and older boys who can be really poorly and become sterile I don't think there will be many mums sending their lads to mumps parties.Karen.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lisac   

I know this might sound a bit daft, but, can you have the MMR at any age? Does it have to be when children are so young? Say, if a child had it at 5, 6 or 7, surely they would be more unlikely to develop autism then. What do you think ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bid   
I know this might sound a bit daft, but, can you have the MMR at any age? Does it have to be when children are so young? Say, if a child had it at 5, 6 or 7, surely they would be more unlikely to develop autism then. What do you think ?

 

I think so, because my 14 year old DD has just had a letter from our GP to say she didn't complete the MMR course, and inviting her for the booster.

 

Bid :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lisac   

Ah ok, so maybe vaccinating at an older age, may be safer than vaccinating at 1 years old, makes sense ? :)

Edited by lisac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mumble   
Ah ok, so maybe being vaccinating at an older age, will be safer than vaccinating a 1 year old, makes sense ? :)

Unfortunately not, because young children are most at risk of contracting measles and mumps.

 

But yes, you can have it at any age - I was 26... :unsure: Better late than never. :rolleyes:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bid   

My two youngest didn't have the MMR as bubs, partly because of the possible autism link (littlest DS in particular had bowel probs at that age, too) and partly because their severe food allergy to egg meant they would have needed to have the vacs in hospital.

 

Actually, I have been thinking that I would be happy for them to have it now they are much older (11 and nearly 8).

 

Bid :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mumble   
My two youngest didn't have the MMR as bubs, partly because of the possible autism link (littlest DS in particular had bowel probs at that age, too) and partly because their severe food allergy to egg meant they would have needed to have the vacs in hospital.

That's why it's so important that those children who can have it do have it - as it then protects those who can't because they are not exposed.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My two youngest didn't have the MMR as bubs, partly because of the possible autism link (littlest DS in particular had bowel probs at that age, too) and partly because their severe food allergy to egg meant they would have needed to have the vacs in hospital.

 

Actually, I have been thinking that I would be happy for them to have it now they are much older (11 and nearly 8).

 

Bid :)

 

 

My sister always opposed MMR and every other vaccination offered when her children (4) were born, as a result refused them all. They are now fully grown adults with families and have never been really ill with anything. Lucky or what ? She believed in letting children develop natural immunities, and is still convinced current sterile conditions everyone insists on these days for children are the reason they don't develop that immunity. When our child was diagnosed autistic she said "I told you not to have MMR..."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
baddad   
When our child was diagnosed autistic she said "I told you not to have MMR..."

 

:o Don't you mean your ex-sister? I'd have disowned her! :blink::lol:

 

L&P

 

BD :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there are many causes, when I was pregnant with my 3rd child, as I was an older mum, I had about 10 scans, and the last one the operative held the ultrasound thingy on my stomache for what seemed like ages as she wanted me to see 'baby 'turn' - I actually felt heat and very uncomfortable, and guess what - a headline that week, said ultra sound scans and autism were linked. Great thinks I.

It wasn't until my child was born and he was three (before I knew he had Aspergers) I was in the park and a man I was chatting to said 'Is he special? I said 'What do you mean' and he said does he have autism? I said no as I had no idea what he was talking about. The reason this man had said this was because my son was looking at him in a certain way and this man worked in a autism unit. He said that the one thing a lot of the mothers have in common is that they had very stressful pregnancies, which I had, I was distraught through most of my pregnancy, I remember thinking at the time that this stress was not going to have a good effect on my unborn child.

My ex boss had a son who was severely affected by autism, and she was convinced that the MMR had caused it, as her son had reached all of the age appropriate milestones and then had the MMR and screamed for 2 days, then regressed, so badly he is in a home. I was told by a visting guest speaker who is an expert on Autism that the MMR can sometimes cause Autism.

But I realise now that my sons father has Aspergers or something very similar, his mother has OCD and other undiagnosed mental health problems, so I definately think it is inherited in some way.

I work in a place where there is a lot of Aspies, highly intelligent people, and although their people skills aren't great, their contribution to science is immeasurable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think there are many causes, when I was pregnant with my 3rd child, as I was an older mum, I had about 10 scans, and the last one the operative held the ultrasound thingy on my stomache for what seemed like ages as she wanted me to see 'baby 'turn' - I actually felt heat and very uncomfortable, and guess what - a headline that week, said ultra sound scans and autism were linked. Great thinks I.

It wasn't until my child was born and he was three (before I knew he had Aspergers) I was in the park and a man I was chatting to said 'Is he special? I said 'What do you mean' and he said does he have autism? I said no as I had no idea what he was talking about. The reason this man had said this was because my son was looking at him in a certain way and this man worked in a autism unit. He said that the one thing a lot of the mothers have in common is that they had very stressful pregnancies, which I had, I was distraught through most of my pregnancy, I remember thinking at the time that this stress was not going to have a good effect on my unborn child.

My ex boss had a son who was severely affected by autism, and she was convinced that the MMR had caused it, as her son had reached all of the age appropriate milestones and then had the MMR and screamed for 2 days, then regressed, so badly he is in a home. I was told by a visting guest speaker who is an expert on Autism that the MMR can sometimes cause Autism.

But I realise now that my sons father has Aspergers or something very similar, his mother has OCD and other undiagnosed mental health problems, so I definately think it is inherited in some way.

I work in a place where there is a lot of Aspies, highly intelligent people, and although their people skills aren't great, their contribution to science is immeasurable.

 

Unfortunately our children are not all like that, we shouldn't suggest it is the norm, it is like every other sector just the small percentage, who are 'rain men'. I just worry how they can cope when parents are no longer able to pick up their support, there is still so little for them. I lay awake at nights really worried when my son becomes an adult, there is just not a thing here. A lot they provide is 'play schemes aimed at 7/8 yr old disabled children none of whom share his autism and he is 14... they believe THAT is provision, I don't agree. I Only get access to that, because someone is 'doing me a favour' by letting the age limit (12) not apply. But he is showing signs of frustration with this already.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LizK   

The problem with the MMR-autism issue is the way it has been misreported and hyped in the media that you can barely see the wood from the trees and makes it hard to make a logical decision. You only have see the woefully irresponsible scaremongering headlines about swine flu in the press this week to get a flavour of this. Once you brush away the hype there are really only two things that are evident. Firstly from actually looking at the science there is little meaningful evidence or good quality research linking MMR and ASD and afaik no epidemiological evidence of ASD rates falling with the decline of MMR. Secondly though there are anecdotal cases reported by parents of ASD symptoms developing shortly after the MMR. How do you marry these two up? The large scale general conclusions to apply to a populatiom vs what might happen to an individual. If you are the 1 in 10000 child who has a severe reaction to a vaccine (as quoted by manufacturers) and ends up developing autism or other neurological impairment as a result then you don't really care what an epidemiological study states. If you are one of the 9999 children who don't react then protecting against the real harms of measles etc is important.

 

I am quite angry with the media hype and biased info on both sides as it made it very hard to make an informed decision about MMR. And even though I logically could find no credible evidence linking the two the fear generated by the media was a bigger influence than rationale science. It is only know when DS is 7 years old that I can finally bring myself to arrange his MMR booster after procrastinating for three years and I still feel quite wobbly about it all.

 

http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/ This article is quite interesting

 

Going slightly off at a tangent but read some interesting research looking at home videos taken of autistic children when they were babies. Even though the parents often reported the symptoms of ASD developing around 12-18mths (MMR time) there was actually signs on the videos of autism in the children when they were much younger i.e. the autism was already there

 

Lx

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing with mumps and measles is that they are 'safer' to contract when younger. Yes, I know, I know, there have, are and always will be those who have a particularly bad reaction to the virus, where severe damage is wrought or possibly even death, but again, the likliehood of this happening is small. Even chickenpox carries such a risk- people have died from chickenpox, but most parents I know are keen for their kids to get this over with in childhood-a bit like the measles parties someone mentioned earlier! :rolleyes:

My boys have both had all their jabs, though with the littley, I waited until he was nearly four to get him immunised. (He had chickenpox at eight weeks old, btw, and suffered quite badly through it, poor wee mite! I had a scabby baby for WEEKS!) I just don't agree that it's sensible to introduce multiple pathogens into a wee baby's body at such a young age. One at a time, yes.......

It's feasible in the sense that babies are likely to be exposed to an illness such as this whether they're young or not. Their bodies have an immature immune system but as thousands of parents will testify, they can usually cope with an illness and get through it relatively unscathed. But now we're giving two month old babies injections containing no less than FIVE different pathogens!

The laboratory-produced pathogens themselves will never be anywhere near as virulent as those roaming free in the wild, if you like. They are deliberately much-weakened (in order to reduce the risks to the recipient). Some are not live but others (such as polio...I think!) need to be live in order to get the immune system to react to them properly, therefore invoking the production of cells that will remember the characteristics of the invading pathogen. This means that if the recipient should be exposed to the pathogen again, the immune response will be much quicker . Production of pathogen destroying cells that are specific to that pathogen will occur far quicker and much of the symptoms and horrendousness of having the measles, mumps, etc should be avoided.

Now think about a two month old baby. They've been in sterile conditions since conception and have only been exposed to illnesses for 2 months......only 56 days during in which to develop resistances to germs and viruses, excepting those that may have been passed on from Mum (though by this stage, this passive immunity has 'worn off'.....)

Now, hey ho, let's whack five pathogens right into their bloodstream and leave 'em to it.....I just don't think this is sensible. Where in the world would they be exposed to three, let alone five of these pathogens at one time??

I don't care what people can quote at me (though as always, laydeez and gents....and Baddad!! ;) )I respect your right to disagree and have your own opinions! What's the problem with spacing it out a little bit more? Again, I understand the governments' stance, in that they are trying to provide babies with a safety net against illnesses that can be frankly devastating, and that the more time that elapses between each jab, the less protected the child is, but I cannot agree that they've got the balance right. I'm almost sure that when my eldest received his first jabs, it was a 3-in-one jab- with a side order of polio, perhaps.

Now, we're at a 5-in-one jab- and the pressure to accept this is probably greater than it was when vaccinations were first introduced.

What next? New vaccinations are being developed all the time...case in point, the new cervical cancer jab. Had I a daughter, I would actually be getting her vaccinated, but science advances constantly. Will our our children be facing a 10-in-one vaccination programme for their own newborn offspring??

I do actually think vaccination is a good thing- we may well be seeing the result of the drop in uptake in 10, 15 years time when unvaccinated adults contact the measles, mumps and suchlike and become terribly ill, perhaps suffering lifelong damage as a result. It may well be the case that many more foetuses will be damaged when their unvaccinated mothers contract these illnesses. Adult men could be rendered sterile, pregnant women may suffer mumps-induced miscarriages...all unpalatable thoughts, but realities nonetheless.

I just wish that the process of vaccination could be less harsh......5 in one is just too many. (IMO, of course.)

 

Anyhoo, below is a link to a gov'mnt site type thing with info on vaccination programmes, for anyone interested.

http://www.immunisation.nhs.uk/Immunisation_Schedule

 

For what its worth, I've had both my lads vaccinated and neither suffered to greatly form it. My aspie lad has ALWAYS been special, I knew it almost from the outset so on a personal level, there's no link here between his condition and the MMR.

 

Rearding the genetic debate, I honestly can't say WHAT I would do if a test became available. I had absolutely no prenatal testing done during either pregnancy as I knew I would not have terminated if anything was found.

Now though, I'm not so sure. I already have a child who needs more attention and time than the typical child and I feel stretched as it is sometimes, trying to give both my boys some quality time. Often, with my older son, I feel a lot of out time is not quality, but spent trying to deal with different aspects of his condition, or with the various agencies involved with him. And the littley misses out. It can be wretched.

So I can't imagine how I would cope with another special needs child thrown into the equation. Would it be fair to ANY of them? Then again, the foetus has a right to life...arrgh!! I personally, have terribly mixed feelings on this issue, with regards to the discovery of a severely disabled child. I know too well the hell my Dad went through when his body let him down, and there he was left with a brilliant mindbut unable to perform the most basic of tasks for himself....He must have been screaming with frustration inside. I know he was....oh, arrgh, it's a question that is never going to have a black and white answer, it's all down to personal feeling ,opinions and experience.....

All I know for sure is that I can't judge anyone on this kind of thing....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The problem with the MMR-autism issue is the way it has been misreported and hyped in the media that you can barely see the wood from the trees and makes it hard to make a logical decision. You only have see the woefully irresponsible scaremongering headlines about swine flu in the press this week to get a flavour of this. Once you brush away the hype there are really only two things that are evident. Firstly from actually looking at the science there is little meaningful evidence or good quality research linking MMR and ASD and afaik no epidemiological evidence of ASD rates falling with the decline of MMR. Secondly though there are anecdotal cases reported by parents of ASD symptoms developing shortly after the MMR. How do you marry these two up? The large scale general conclusions to apply to a populatiom vs what might happen to an individual. If you are the 1 in 10000 child who has a severe reaction to a vaccine (as quoted by manufacturers) and ends up developing autism or other neurological impairment as a result then you don't really care what an epidemiological study states. If you are one of the 9999 children who don't react then protecting against the real harms of measles etc is important.

 

I am quite angry with the media hype and biased info on both sides as it made it very hard to make an informed decision about MMR. And even though I logically could find no credible evidence linking the two the fear generated by the media was a bigger influence than rationale science. It is only know when DS is 7 years old that I can finally bring myself to arrange his MMR booster after procrastinating for three years and I still feel quite wobbly about it all.

 

http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/ This article is quite interesting

 

Going slightly off at a tangent but read some interesting research looking at home videos taken of autistic children when they were babies. Even though the parents often reported the symptoms of ASD developing around 12-18mths (MMR time) there was actually signs on the videos of autism in the children when they were much younger i.e. the autism was already there

 

Lx

 

 

What I do know is my son at that early age showed considerable intelligence, was ahead of the game, and this was commented on by the visiting nurse. To go from that to a total shut down in 72 hours was completely unexpected by everyone, the ONLY link was that jab. What the press said after made no impressions on me, I went by the evidence presented to me and the nurse, it made total logic the MMR was a trigger. Unless they are suggesting because my son showed clever at that age, that was the clue to being autistic ! It was 2 years before he spoke again really, and the new nurse we saw said "His dad is deaf that is why he is autstic..." Perhaps researchers should examine this statement ! Now we know hearing loss is why our kids are autstic.... the level of sheer ignorance with the medical profession was alarming, had I not watched a TV show about autism and suggested that to my GP he would not be diagnosed now......little wonder we did not believe them over MMR, they were more interested in burying any research into that, than examining IF it did contribute. We as parents were then left in doubt, and in limbo. We are to this day. I'm not looking for someone to blame, I just want to know how it happened.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Emum   
What I do know is my son at that early age showed considerable intelligence, was ahead of the game, and this was commented on by the visiting nurse. To go from that to a total shut down in 72 hours was completely unexpected by everyone, the ONLY link was that jab. What the press said after made no impressions on me, I went by the evidence presented to me and the nurse, it made total logic the MMR was a trigger. Unless they are suggesting because my son showed clever at that age, that was the clue to being autistic ! It was 2 years before he spoke again really, and the new nurse we saw said "His dad is deaf that is why he is autstic..." Perhaps researchers should examine this statement ! Now we know hearing loss is why our kids are autstic.... the level of sheer ignorance with the medical profession was alarming, had I not watched a TV show about autism and suggested that to my GP he would not be diagnosed now......little wonder we did not believe them over MMR, they were more interested in burying any research into that, than examining IF it did contribute. We as parents were then left in doubt, and in limbo. We are to this day. I'm not looking for someone to blame, I just want to know how it happened.

 

I'm still not sure that's conclusive proof. My DD met all her milestones early, and the HVs and my family used to laughingly call her "Little Einstein". She could feed herself with a fork and spoon when she was 10 months old, and her speech was bang on target at a year. She had her MMR at 13 months and continued to be a bright little spark, with no impact at all on her development, and suddenly shut down when she was around 18months, and now has a diagnosis of autism with severe learning difficulties. My understanding that a sudden regression and loss of previously well engrained skills is very very common with ASDs and it goes without saying that sometimes this will occur at around the same age as the MMR is given, but this does not prove a link.

 

I was interested to read Karen A's posts as we live in the same London borough, and I am aware that we have a much higher incidence of children being diagnosed with ASDs than the national average (the last figures I saw were about 3% as opposed to about 1% nationwide). It is interesting then if we have a much lower take-up of MMR.

 

From my own point of view, I would much rather have a child with autism than a child who has died from a wholly preventable disease, and I also feel a responsibity to those children with impaired immunities who can't have the vaccination but who would die or be seriously disabled if exposed to these conditions, along with those unborn children who might be exposed in the womb. For that reason, notwithstanding that I have a child on the spectrum, I do intend to give the MMR again to my new baby unless I am advised on medical grounds that I should not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
florrie   
I would much rather have a child with autism than a child who has died from a wholly preventable disease

 

This is the media hype again, leading many people today to believe that children will die if they don't have the vaccine..

 

The facts are only 2 unvaccinated children have died from measles since the the vaccines came out. They were both ill children,who had immune system problems which is why they weren't vaccinated, this was on medical advice. They would almost certainly have been ill had they had the vaccine and may have died anyway. There are more children than that that have died after MMR vaccines http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/he...ab-1048237.html

 

I also know someone whose child died after MMR jab and on another forum I go on someone said a neighbour of there's child died after MMR jab too. For most people it is safe but it not safe for everyone, there should be an investigation as to why some children have adverse reactions and probably the reason they don't is because compensation costs to all those who have been harmed would be massive

Edited by florrie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Karen A   
This is the media hype again, leading many people today to believe that children will die if they don't have the vaccine..

 

The facts are only 2 unvaccinated children have died from measles since the the vaccines came out. They were both ill children,who had immune system problems which is why they weren't vaccinated, this was on medical advice. They would almost certainly have been ill had they had the vaccine and may have died anyway. There are more children than that that have died after MMR vaccines http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/he...ab-1048237.html

 

I also know someone whose child died after MMR jab and on another forum I go on someone said a neighbour of there's child died after MMR jab too. For most people it is safe but it not safe for everyone, there should be an investigation as to why some children have adverse reactions and probably the reason they don't is because compensation costs to all those who have been harmed would be massive

 

Hi.I have nursed children with leukemia which is one of the main causes of seriously impacted immunity.My mum also died from mylodysplasia a condition which involves the failure of the bone marrow leading to a gradual decline in immunity.Emums comments regarding the impact of reduced immunity in the population due to reduced numbers of vaccinations are very true.Individuals with severely reduced immune systems due to those diseases mentioned cannot recieve immunisations becuse they would then be likely to contract the disease.They are therefore reliant on there being a sufficient level of immunity within the community due to immunisation.When the level of immunisation within the community drops below a certain level then the level of immunity within the community is reduced and the likelihood of an outbreak increases with the increased likelihood that vulnerable individuals [like those with mylodysplasia and leukemia ] may become infected.For individuals with seriously compromised immune systems measles and mumps can be fatal.During the last year of my mums life I was working in a nursery.Each time a child attending the nursery became unwell with a possible infection I had to consider the risk of visiting my mum and possibly taking an infection with me.So it is worth bearing in mind that immunisation that is taken up by those within the community who can be immunised is one of the few ways to protect these individuals from contracting measles,mumps and reubella.Karen.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
baddad   
Hi.I have nursed children with leukemia which is one of the main causes of seriously impacted immunity.My mum also died from mylodysplasia a condition which involves the failure of the bone marrow leading to a gradual decline in immunity.Emums comments regarding the impact of reduced immunity in the population due to reduced numbers of vaccinations are very true.Individuals with severely reduced immune systems due to those diseases mentioned cannot recieve immunisations becuse they would then be likely to contract the disease.They are therefore reliant on there being a sufficient level of immunity within the community due to immunisation.When the level of immunisation within the community drops below a certain level then the level of immunity within the community is reduced and the likelihood of an outbreak increases with the increased likelihood that vulnerable individuals [like those with mylodysplasia and leukemia ] may become infected.For individuals with seriously compromised immune systems measles and mumps can be fatal.During the last year of my mums life I was working in a nursery.Each time a child attending the nursery became unwell with a possible infection I had to consider the risk of visiting my mum and possibly taking an infection with me.So it is worth bearing in mind that immunisation that is taken up by those within the community who can be immunised is one of the few ways to protect these individuals from contracting measles,mumps and reubella.Karen.

 

Hi again... just a brief interlude into this thread and not batting for any particular side...

I agree the above makes perfect sense, but think it's a good reason why the goverments should do the one thing they can do that would seriously effect the take up figures - support parents in seeking and obtaining individual vaccines...

T'was a long time ago I admit, but when I did the research part of my HND on MMR take up, the small survey I took indicated that only around 1% of parents would refuse individual vaccines against statistics for MMR running at (I think, from memory) around 12-13%, and of the additional 11-12% that would take ind vaccines almost all said they would be willing to pay a contribution or to pay for private inoculations. The sticking point (haha) was that the single vaccines weren't available in big enough quantities - something that would have been resolved years ago if the manufacturer's had responded (or been pressured to respond) to market forces rather than setting their own standards and being backed on that by the government...

A spin that involves taking higher social responsibility from goverment and making targets of genuinely concerned parents is a spin 'too far' in my estimation...

If you take the politics and money out of this debate you are left with some simple and obvious solutions. Even the money issues aren't insurmountable - just a bit complicated - but the politics is the real turd in the toilet bowl...

Anybody who has any doubts about politicians should watch Gummer feeding his daughter a burger at the height of the BSE/CJD scare again, Blair hedging questions about his own baby's inoculations, or Ms Smith defending her choices about her child's schooling. :)

 

L&P

 

BD :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm still not sure that's conclusive proof. My DD met all her milestones early, and the HVs and my family used to laughingly call her "Little Einstein". She could feed herself with a fork and spoon when she was 10 months old, and her speech was bang on target at a year. She had her MMR at 13 months and continued to be a bright little spark, with no impact at all on her development, and suddenly shut down when she was around 18months, and now has a diagnosis of autism with severe learning difficulties. My understanding that a sudden regression and loss of previously well engrained skills is very very common with ASDs and it goes without saying that sometimes this will occur at around the same age as the MMR is given, but this does not prove a link.

 

I was interested to read Karen A's posts as we live in the same London borough, and I am aware that we have a much higher incidence of children being diagnosed with ASDs than the national average (the last figures I saw were about 3% as opposed to about 1% nationwide). It is interesting then if we have a much lower take-up of MMR.

 

From my own point of view, I would much rather have a child with autism than a child who has died from a wholly preventable disease, and I also feel a responsibity to those children with impaired immunities who can't have the vaccination but who would die or be seriously disabled if exposed to these conditions, along with those unborn children who might be exposed in the womb. For that reason, notwithstanding that I have a child on the spectrum, I do intend to give the MMR again to my new baby unless I am advised on medical grounds that I should not.

 

It begs the question of there is agreement MMR can cause issues with a small percentage of our children, then why aren't these issues researched and we are told what the risks are ? We were just shouted down, because they were in the brown stuff after a mass boycott. Children are still suffering from MMR, and it is an accepted 'risk', this suggests they KNOW what the risks are. So why not tell us ? And if they don't know why should we risk our children's health ? Better autistic than blind or deaf ? so there is a hierarchy of disabling acceptance ? small comfort to us isn't it ? I'm left thinking, if I hadn't opted for MMR, maybe.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mumble   
I agree the above makes perfect sense, but think it's a good reason why the governments should do the one thing they can do that would seriously effect the take up figures - support parents in seeking and obtaining individual vaccines...

The trouble with individual vaccines is the time-frames and the gaps between them. Even if you have the full course there is a much longer time you are left at risk, but the biggest problem is that many don't fully understand/don't complete the course of individual vaccines. That issue is virtually eliminated with a combination vaccine.

 

By having individuals 'at risk' for longer or 'at risk' without being aware, you are back to the public health at large issue made clear by other posters; some individuals cannot have the vaccine and so rely on the greater majority being immunised for their own health. Where this doesn't happen lives are being put at risk.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
baddad   
The trouble with individual vaccines is the time-frames and the gaps between them. Even if you have the full course there is a much longer time you are left at risk, but the biggest problem is that many don't fully understand/don't complete the course of individual vaccines. That issue is virtually eliminated with a combination vaccine.

 

By having individuals 'at risk' for longer or 'at risk' without being aware, you are back to the public health at large issue made clear by other posters; some individuals cannot have the vaccine and so rely on the greater majority being immunised for their own health. Where this doesn't happen lives are being put at risk.

 

Yerse... but better 99% inoculation over three years than 83% over for ever! :)

I'm sure more children's lives are at risk from letting them wander the streets at school lunchtimes looking for chips because they won't eat Jamie Oliver's healthy options than from M, M and R put together.. but that's a completely different issue and well worthy of it's own rant anyway! :lol:

 

L&P

 

BD :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mumble   
I'm sure more children's lives are at risk from letting them wander the streets at school lunchtimes looking for chips because they won't eat Jamie Oliver's healthy options than from M, M and R put together.. but that's a completely different issue and well worthy of it's own rant anyway! :lol:

I could say something here about survival of the fittest... :whistle:

 

Children who go out in search of artery clogging 'food' are not putting others at harm by their actions, they are only potentially putting their own health at risk. By not being vaccinated/having your child vaccinated when they can be, you are putting others at risk.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
baddad   
I could say something here about survival of the fittest... :whistle:

 

Children who go out in search of artery clogging 'food' are not putting others at harm by their actions, they are only potentially putting their own health at risk. By not being vaccinated/having your child vaccinated when they can be, you are putting others at risk.

 

i actually meant RTA's - but as i'm only being contentious it doesn't really matter! :lol:

And they put the lives of miserable old sods at risk too - we're drpping like flies in t/wells from 'angry' heart attacks and exploding spleens because we cant get served in Tesco's metro 'cos of all the bleedin' secondary skool kids... Yaggggggggggghhhhhhh whipping's too good for 'em.... children in need? I'll tell you what they need - a bl00dy good kick up the a*se... if i had my way i'd.............

 

(fx - dull explosion in distance. Cut to mushroom cloud blossoming over mid Kent.)

 

:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Karen A   
i actually meant RTA's - but as i'm only being contentious it doesn't really matter! :lol:

And they put the lives of miserable old sods at risk too - we're drpping like flies in t/wells from 'angry' heart attacks and exploding spleens because we cant get served in Tesco's metro 'cos of all the bleedin' secondary skool kids... Yaggggggggggghhhhhhh whipping's too good for 'em.... children in need? I'll tell you what they need - a bl00dy good kick up the a*se... if i had my way i'd.............

 

(fx - dull explosion in distance. Cut to mushroom cloud blossoming over mid Kent.)

 

:D

 

I can tell you don't live near me.There is a simple answer.....keep the gates locked at lunch time. :lol::lol:

 

Have you escaped from filming grummpy old men by the way.......or did the high wire get to you. :lol:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
florrie   
I had to consider the risk of visiting my mum and possibly taking an infection with me.So it is worth bearing in mind that immunisation that is taken up by those within the community who can be immunised is one of the few ways to protect these individuals from contracting measles,mumps and reubella.Karen

 

I understand what you are saying, but a child with measles would not be at nursery. There are lots of things you can do to build natural immunity, homeopathy remedies work well, in fact vaccination was originally based on homeopathy,not to mention healthy diet high fruit and veg for vitamin C etc.

 

It is my opinion because of what I've experienced and witnessed that it is not safe for some children and it is not always possible to know who it is safe for, but if you have allergies or bad reactions to things then you will be likely in this group, some people that have reacted badly to vaccines or other pharmaceuticals have undiagnosed mitochondrial diseases, which is a rare neurological disease. I've just discovered I've got one. The substances do not get metabolised either because of damaged mitochondria, or because substances have damage mitochondrial functioning. Mitochondria disease kills you eventually with multiple organ failure. Some children if they have this may die may die on an MMR jab, or if they contracted measles, hopefully if it is diagnosed, they would not be given the jab anyway, but there are very few specialists who diagnose, and they ususally only get diagnosed if they are on life support of some sort, as at this point it has become obvious that they are severely affected.

 

At the end of the day, we all have different opinons and views on it and I don't think much is going to change what those are.

 

I really wish that people would be taken seriously when they say there child had severe reactions after MMR, and that it would be investigated before stating it is safe. One poor woman whose child disability started after MMR, she was treated as psychiatric which then tipped her over and she killed herself and her child, some people think it is proof she was psychiatric and others believe she cracked up over her child being harmed by MMR, it is enough to make you crack up..

 

I would only have vaccination if Ihad another child if they could guarantee 100% that there would be no adverse reaction and they can't guarantee that. It is even on their own literature on side effects that it can cause death if your child is not 100% well at the time of vaccination

Edited by florrie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Emum   
I understand what you are saying, but a child with measles would not be at nursery.

 

Only if they have a psychic mother! The incubation period for measles is 7-14 days. Therefore the child could easily be at nursery and highly infectious for several days before any symptoms are obvious.

 

Being too old to have been given the MMR, and having been exposed to measles inadvertently during this pregnancy (and to chicken pox by a mother who knew her child was infectious and didn't tell), I'm less than impressed by those who put more vulnerable children and babies at risk needlessly, and had anyone suggested to me that any harm to my unborn baby was down to my low orange consumption, they'd have got pretty short shrift.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Karen A   
I understand what you are saying, but a child with measles would not be at nursery. There are lots of things you can do to build natural immunity, homeopathy remedies work well, in fact vaccination was originally based on homeopathy,not to mention healthy diet high fruit and veg for vitamin C etc.

 

It is my opinion because of what I've experienced and witnessed that it is not safe for some children and it is not always possible to know who it is safe for, but if you have allergies or bad reactions to things then you will be likely in this group, some people that have reacted badly to vaccines or other pharmaceuticals have undiagnosed mitochondrial diseases, which is a rare neurological disease. I've just discovered I've got one. The substances do not get metabolised either because of damaged mitochondria, or because substances have damage mitochondrial functioning. Mitochondria disease kills you eventually with multiple organ failure. Some children if they have this may die may die on an MMR jab, or if they contracted measles, hopefully if it is diagnosed, they would not be given the jab anyway, but there are very few specialists who diagnose, and they ususally only get diagnosed if they are on life support of some sort, as at this point it has become obvious that they are severely affected.

 

At the end of the day, we all have different opinons and views on it and I don't think much is going to change what those are.

 

I really wish that people would be taken seriously when they say there child had severe reactions after MMR, and that it would be investigated before stating it is safe. One poor woman whose child disability started after MMR, she was treated as psychiatric which then tipped her over and she killed herself and her child, some people think it is proof she was psychiatric and others believe she cracked up over her child being harmed by MMR, it is enough to make you crack up..

 

Hi.I do appreciate that you feel strongly about this.However the fact that one women killed herself and her child because she believed that her child was harmed by the MMR is what she believed.In my opinion it amounts to using one persons tragic story to attempt to influence others.

I feel pretty well qualified to say that.My 16 year old brother committed suicide in the middle of his O levels.Although I believe he probably committed suicide due to exam stress which was tragic it does not provide an argument for everyone else not sitting GCSES

Edited to add.I would like someone to be able to gaurentee that my sons won't committ suicide during their O levels but there is no such gaurentee.Ben will almost certainly be taking SATS next week because to prevent him making progress in life because of my anxiety based on my extreme experience would not be logical.It would also do him more harm than good.

Edited by Karen A

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
florrie   
Hi.I do appreciate that you feel strongly about this.However the fact that one women killed herself and her child because she believed that her child was harmed by the MMR is what she believed.In my opinion it amounts to using one persons tragic story to attempt to influence others.

I feel pretty well qualified to say that.My 16 year old brother committed suicide in the middle of his O levels.Although I believe he probably committed suicide due to exam stress which was tragic it does n

 

Hi Karen

 

I'm very sorry about your brother, that must have been very traumatic for you and your family, I agree in that case and others there are quite a few children who commit suicide at GCSE's someone I was at school with someone who did too.

 

Yes and this particular case is isolated as far as i'm aware but it wasn't reported in a way to attempt to influence others, it was reported as she was mentally ill person who believed her child was harmed by MMR because she was delusional, that is the bit that influences others as far I can see, I believe that too when I first heard it. I was shocked when I found out the truth from someone who knew her on another forum. The only person it influenced was me and perhaps a few others who share the same view, but it didn't influence the majority who believe the reporting of the mainstream media.

 

I attempted suicide about 9 years ago,as I couldn't cope, and I was also experiecing side effects from seroxat that got worse and worse, and the same kind of thing was done to me, which is why I know it goes on. I was stitched up and records were covered up, to complicated to go into full details here, it was bizarre, and complex. I was struck off, my gp list by another gp after suicide attempt in order to deflect from his abusive attitude toward me and in order to deflect from his own behavior to stitch up the helpful gp, I think he was hoping this would cause such distress that I would do it again so he could stitch the other one up well and truly, as I got aletter saying we had an inappropriate relationship and he had decided it could not continue, he did not explain what this inappropriate relationship was, I think he was so angry he felt anyone who wanted to help that was inappropriate, so the other one ended up having to resign, I was so distressed that I nearly did do it again, but then that would have given the other one "proof" of the inappropriate relationship so he could pin it on the other one, so I refused to play into his handsit was appalling, terribly distressing to realise they will do this stuff to you in order to cover up and it also succeeded in deflecting from harm done to me, from over dose of seroxat, after I was not able to control direction or speed of gross motor control when i tired tomove I would go flying across the room, when I had a drink it would go fast over my shoulder instead of mouth. It blew my pupil put me in coma, the A&E doctor told my partner I'd got some brain damage, and since then I've not been able to organise I've lost 30 points of IQ,my memory is so bad, I can't go anywhere because I get lost, I can't answer a phone, it has become difficult to distiguish the milder type Asperger type symptoms I had before and the problems since seroxat, as they are similar but Ihave far more difficulties now since seroxat than before. I wasn't able tolook after my asd son after, which I had done before and he even ended up mentally ill on the streets for two years at 16, amixture of trauma from what had happend to me and also as he could not get benefits, and I could not cope with his violence, which started after seroxat, he never spoke to me again after that, as he said once I didn't care about him, no one would help, I begged everyone the NAS, doctors social workers etc but our MP eventually helped and my ex partner then had to fight on discrimination grounds as they wanted to stick in a home for problem kids that would have finished him off, he eventually got a bedsit and is now after a long time and lot of the right kind of support for him, which means allowing his idiosycracies, from my expartner is able to work and even pay his rent, his motivation though was that he didn't want to end up like me, who he sees as a complete loser. He really only remembers his childhood from age 12 when I had suicide attempt and no longer coped,he has no recollection of the good times. He has very little verbal ability so is more autistic than aspergers

 

That is why I feel so strongly because 2 severe reactions to pharma in one family, and there is no acknowledgment of these things doing harm to people. I'vehad no support or acknowledgement whatsoever from medical people, it took me a year to get off seroxat, with severe withdrawal effects, 5 years later I was even given seroxat again, and it had what is known as kindling affect and had severe reaction and seizure within hour of first tablet, when I told psych he just reccommended a higher dose and ignored the reactions I'd been experiencing

Edited by florrie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Karen A   
Hi Karen

 

I'm very sorry about your brother, that must have been very traumatic for you and your family, I agree in that case and others there are quite a few children who commit suicide at GCSE's someone I was at school with someone who did too.

 

Yes and this particular case is isolated as far as i'm aware but it wasn't reported in a way to attempt to influence others, it was reported as she was mentally ill person who believed her child was harmed by MMR because she was delusional, that is the bit that influences others as far I can see, I believe that too when I first heard it. I was shocked when I found out the truth from someone who knew her on another forum. The only person it influenced was me and perhaps a few others who share the same view, but it didn't influence the majority who believe the reporting of the mainstream media.

 

I attempted suicide about 9 years ago,as I couldn't cope, and I was also experiecing side effects from seroxat that got worse and worse, and the same kind of thing was done to me, which is why I know it goes on. I was stitched up and records were covered up, to complicated to go into full details here, it was bizarre, and complex. I was struck off, my gp list by another gp after suicide attempt in order to deflect from his abusive attitude toward me and in order to deflect from his own behavior to stitch up the helpful gp, I think he was hoping this would cause such distress that I would do it again so he could stitch the other one up well and truly, as I got aletter saying we had an inappropriate relationship and he had decided it could not continue, he did not explain what this inappropriate relationship was, I think he was so angry he felt anyone who wanted to help that was inappropriate, so the other one ended up having to resign, I was so distressed that I nearly did do it again, but then that would have given the other one "proof" of the inappropriate relationship so he could pin it on the other one, so I refused to play into his handsit was appalling, terribly distressing to realise they will do this stuff to you in order to cover up and it also succeeded in deflecting from harm done to me, from over dose of seroxat, after I was not able to control direction or speed of gross motor control when i tired tomove I would go flying across the room, when I had a drink it would go fast over my shoulder instead of mouth. It blew my pupil put me in coma, the A&E doctor told my partner I'd got some brain damage, and since then I've not been able to organise I've lost 30 points of IQ,my memory is so bad, I can't go anywhere because I get lost, I can't answer a phone, it has become difficult to distiguish the milder type Asperger type symptoms I had before and the problems since seroxat, as they are similar but Ihave far more difficulties now since seroxat than before. I wasn't able tolook after my asd son after, which I had done before and he even ended up mentally ill on the streets for two years at 16, amixture of trauma from what had happend to me and also as he could not get benefits, and I could not cope with his violence, which started after seroxat, he never spoke to me again after that, as he said once I didn't care about him, no one would help, I begged everyone the NAS, doctors social workers etc but our MP eventually helped and my ex partner then had to fight on discrimination grounds as they wanted to stick in a home for problem kids that would have finished him off, he eventually got a bedsit and is now after a long time and lot of the right kind of support for him, which means allowing his idiosycracies, from my expartner is able to work and even pay his rent, his motivation though was that he didn't want to end up like me, who he sees as a complete loser. He really only remembers his childhood from age 12 when I had suicide attempt and no longer coped,he has no recollection of the good times. He has very little verbal ability so is more autistic than aspergers

 

That is why I feel so strongly because 2 severe reactions to pharma in one family, and there is no acknowledgment of these things doing harm to people. I'vehad no support or acknowledgement whatsoever from medical people, it took me a year to get off seroxat, with severe withdrawal effects, 5 years later I was even given seroxat again, and it had what is known as kindling affect and had severe reaction and seizure within hour of first tablet, when I told psych he just reccommended a higher dose and ignored the reactions I'd been experiencing

 

Hi Florrie. >:D<<'> >:D<<'> It sounds as though yourself and your family have been through some very tough times.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×