advice on the new tribunal system please

[julie1]

hi, i need some advice on the new appeal system, im hopping someone will no a little about it. on the part Are there any issues the tribunal cannot deal with, the LA refused to name an independent school if the statement was at least a year old. By a year old im not sure what they mean, if the statement has been reviewed and changes have been made is the statement then new or will it always be a year old. any advice would be of help.

[call me jaded]

Sorry, why is the tribunal not able to deal with that?

 

The statement ages from the date it was first issued. Amendments and revisions are not a new statement, just changes to the existing one.

[julie1]

Sorry, why is the tribunal not able to deal with that?

 

The statement ages from the date it was first issued. Amendments and revisions are not a new statement, just changes to the existing one.

im not to sure i spoke to the lady from parent partnership and she said that she is not sure that i can go to tribunal to change part 4 on the statement, she said that the rules are different now and that she is looking into it.

[Sally44]

If you are saying that you want to change the placement in section 4, that you will need to overhaul the whole statement. The present statement has the school itemised in section 4 relevant to the contents of the current statement. So that school your child is presently at is considered by the LEA as "the nearest suitable school". If you disagree with that you need to gather evidence (via assessments and written reports) that the placement you are seeking is the 'only' and nearest most suitable school, especially as you are wanting an independent school. Is this a private fee paying school? If this school does involve any extra cost to the LEA they will try to keep the placement within their own schools and will usually take it to tribunal. You will also need the LEAs own professionals eg. SALT/EP to say or 'imply' that his progress in his current placement is not acceptable. Can you confirm what type of school your child is currently at?

Have a look on the IPSEA website because they have information about this. My understanding is that it is easier to move mainstream to mainstream or special to special school. It is much harder to change a placement from mainstream to special or special to mainstream or LEA funded to independent.

I think that once a statement has been made that you are supposed to wait a year until any changes are made. But I am no expert and I am sure others will post with greater detail. In extreme cases there can be an emergency review. But that is usually a last resort when the relationship between the school and child has broken down and the child is usually not in school.

The Parent Partnership should come back with the right information. But you can also contact ISPEA or the NAS or ACE as well.

[Kathryn]

Hi Julie

 

Only the tribunal procedure has recently changed: the law and the rules saying what you can appeal against, remain exactly the same.

 

If your child is in a LA school with an existing statement, you can request a change of school to another LA school. You can only do this if a year has passed since you last asked for a change or since the statement was last looked at formally, i.e. issued or amended in any way. If the LA refuse, you can then appeal part 4 only (not 2 and 3) so the tribunal is limited in what it can do.

 

It's only possible to request a change to an LA school of the same type (special or mainstream). If the statement has been in force for some time, and you now want an independent school, you can't make this kind of straightforward change of school request, because other changes would need to be made to the statement, as Sally said. You would probably have to wait until the statement was next amended e.g. following a review, in order to trigger an appeal against the whole statement, or force the issue by requesting a statutory reassessment.

 

I'm not sure of the background to your situation but I hope that clarifies things a bit.

 

K x

[julie1]

sorry pehaps i should have said my sons statement has just been amended we have just filled in the tribunal paper work we want changes made to part 2,3,4 I hope it goes ok. I have been told that i can go to tribunal for those changes so wish me luck. On part 2 my son is described as having aspergers not autism which is what the pannel wrote and told us he has. Is this important ?

[Sally44]

Are you saying that you have just had an Annual Review of the Statement, and you don't agree with it and are therefore going to Tribunal about parts 2, 3 and 4? When reference is made to 'less than a year old', I think they mean that if the Statement is new, or the Annual Review has been done and everyone agreed at that time and signed to say so, that you cannot then seek changes. There are exceptions such as an Emergency Review, but that is usually when the child is excluded and the education placement has broken down. Panel usually like to see that some time has been spent with the level of provision or school placement in the Statement so that there is sufficient time to be sure that it is, or isn't working. If that information is not correct, i'm sure others more knowledgeable than me will set me straight.

I would advise you to go to tribunal with the aim of making the Statement as strong as you can regardless of the placement. That will be your back up incase Panel do not award the school you are asking for and agree to whichever placement the LEA recommends. So you need sections 2 and 3 to be as detailed and specific as possible so that it is very clear what type of school environment your child needs.

Have you visited the independent school you are hoping to place your child at? Have you also visited other LEA schools which they might name, or even out of county placements that are suitable? I am asking that because if the cost of the independent school you want is more expensive than another LEA (out of county) placement then the LEA is going to argue that their perference is 'the nearest suitable school' and 'the best use of resources'. Of course that all depends on whether there are places available etc.

Are you getting any of your own reports or are you using a solicitor?

If not the NAS, IPSEA and ACE can give you alot of advice and support.

Karen A has posted a useful link in another forum about checking the statement to make sure it contains everything it should. Maybe you could PM her and ask for this link.

 

[Karen A]

http://www.afasic.org.uk/pdf/ProposedStatement.pdf

 

Hi.I think this is the information Sally mentioned.However I should say I usually post the information for people wanting to check Statements are tight enough for the level of discussion with LA .I think that if I was going to tribunal I would also ask for support from NAS ,IPSEA or ACE.I think it would be worth asking for someone from one of these charities to double check that there are no loopholes that they can see. Karen.

I will see if I can find the tribunal support information for you.

[Karen A]

http://www.autism.org.uk/advocacy

The NAS advocacy for education number is on this link.

[Karen A]

http://www.ipsea.org.uk/helplines.htm

IPSEA helpline is on this page.

[Karen A]

sorry pehaps i should have said my sons statement has just been amended we have just filled in the tribunal paper work we want changes made to part 2,3,4 I hope it goes ok. I have been told that i can go to tribunal for those changes so wish me luck. On part 2 my son is described as having aspergers not autism which is what the pannel wrote and told us he has. Is this important ?

 

Hi Julie.Have you ever had a diagnosis of autism or High Functioning Autism documented or confirmed by an NHS professional ? Is the panel the one that gave you a diagnosis ?

If so then it might be worth asking for confirmation from the professional so that you can ask for a change in the Statement.I would not think it is very important.However some people think that some LAs are more likely to offer more support for a diagnosis of HFA or ASD than one of AS .Karen.

 

[Kazzen161]

On part 2 my son is described as having aspergers not autism which is what the pannel wrote and told us he has. Is this important ?

 

If you apply to a school that specialises in AS, then they would not take your child if his dx is autism, and possibly vice versa, so it is good to get it accurate.

[julie1]

Thanks for your replys. my son has a diagnosis of autism, how ever thoughout the statement he is refered as having aspergers. This was made when he was 5 years old he is 13 now. he only got a statement in 2005 and it does say by the medical part that he needs 1/1 support ans speciallist teaching how ever he gets neither, as th LA did not include this into part 2,3 he has not made any progress in maths or english from 2005, but has managed to get level5 in science which is age appropiate. We have looked at the school we would like our ds to go to and our d1 is there we went to tribunal last october and she won her place, im just a bit worried as the tribunal system has changed and the peolpe i have spoken to do not no much about the new system. I have been trying to get in touch with ipsea but not got through yet, but will keep trying.

[bid]

If you apply to a school that specialises in AS, then they would not take your child if his dx is autism, and possibly vice versa, so it is good to get it accurate.

 

My son's residential special school for AS did also included HFA/autism in their application criteria.

 

Bid

[Sally44]

I know it is difficult to get through to IPSEA sometimes, but keep trying. You can also leave a message with the NAS for someone to come back to you.

I don't know what the changes to the tribunal system is, so can't comment.

If your son has a diagnosis of autism, I would personally want the references to Aspergers changed to autism. There is an automatic assumption that a child with Aspergers is high functioning.

And although the difference between an adult with HFA and good language and communication skills and an adult with Aspergers might be impossible to differentiate, the fact is that if a child has not acquired typical language development by the age of 3 then they fit the criteria for autism and not aspergers. If I am wrong I am sure someone will correct me.

I am not saying that those with Aspergers don't have difficulties in the same areas, as they obviously can and do.

But by concentrating on a diagnosis of Autism and what they means and how it affects your child, you may get more support in terms of hours and staffing arrangements in the Statement, and that in itself will be a reflection on the Placement. And check with the placement you are after what their entry criteria is. Some special schools just say 'language and communication disorders' as a cover all for the umbrella of ASDs, whilst others are more specific to diagnosis. Does the placement you want offer any trial period eg. my son went for 3 days to one school to see how he fitted in and the school's EP, SALT and OT all observed and wrote a report about him. It might be useful, but it can also be seen that the school has a vested interest. But there are organisations that have no vested interest, such as Dyslexia Action, and they can produce reports that you can use at tribunal.

You have evidence that he has not improved in some areas of learning consistently over time, and you also have proof that he is of at least average intelligence to have attained a typical level in science. That is also going to be a good way of indicating the type of Placement he needs as he is on the national curriculum and is getting typical results in that subject. That would indicate that he needs specialist teaching by staff with experience and expertise in teaching children with autism.

This is my personal opinion from mine and other friends experiences. I would concentrate on getting the statement as specific as possible so that it reflects the type of placement that he needs, and hopefully that ties in with the placement you are after. If you then fail to get that placement as the LEA has come up with a nearer more suitable school that is a more efficient use of their resources, then at least the support your child receives will be appropriate to his needs. If you concentrate too much on the placement and fail to achieve that, and then fail to have written reports and proof of all your child's needs to go into section 2 and then specified in terms of hours and staffing provision in section 3, then you will have lost on both fronts.

But well done on getting a place for one of your children, and I hope you have the same outcome with child number 2.

[Karen A]

Thanks for your replys. my son has a diagnosis of autism, how ever thoughout the statement he is refered as having aspergers. This was made when he was 5 years old he is 13 now. he only got a statement in 2005 and it does say by the medical part that he needs 1/1 support ans speciallist teaching how ever he gets neither, as th LA did not include this into part 2,3 he has not made any progress in maths or english from 2005, but has managed to get level5 in science which is age appropiate. We have looked at the school we would like our ds to go to and our d1 is there we went to tribunal last october and she won her place, im just a bit worried as the tribunal system has changed and the peolpe i have spoken to do not no much about the new system. I have been trying to get in touch with ipsea but not got through yet, but will keep trying.

 

IPSEA can get busy but don't give up.

Karen.

 

[Karen A]

You have evidence that he has not improved in some areas of learning consistently over time, and you also have proof that he is of at least average intelligence to have attained a typical level in science. That is also going to be a good way of indicating the type of Placement he needs as he is on the national curriculum and is getting typical results in that subject. That would indicate that he needs specialist teaching by staff with experience and expertise in teaching children with autism.

 

Why would it indicate that ?

Ben is expected to obtain a level 5 in literacy and science in year 6 SATS .

Surely a different profile in some areas to others just demonstrates that a child might have difficulties in some areas and not others.This is not unusual in ASD.I am not sure how the fact that a child might be at the expected level in some areas and not in others supports the need for specialist teaching by staff with experience in ASD.

An argument based on emphasis that a child is able in some subjects is more likely to lead to the view that they should be able to cope in mainstream than to support the view that Specialist Provision is needed in my opinion.

 

Julie I thought I should say.I am not saying that specialist provision is not appropriate .You have far more experience than myself having been through the process already.I just think if it has been stated already that specialist teaching is needed there might be another way to provide evidence rather than emphasising that your son is able in some areas.

I have spent the last three years attempting to increase awareness in school.The Head Teacher has always thought Ben could not possibly have SEN or AS because he is not significantly behind his peers.Karen.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Karen A

[julie1]

Thank you so much for your ideas and words of encouragment. WOW today i was sent a letter from my sons school saying that they are supporting me at tribunal, the letter contains lots of information on how needy he is, and also that he will need so much post 16 support. This has given me yhe idea that i might be able to discuss post 16 at the same time at tribunal. I dont no if this is aloud have to look into it. The school we want our son to go to has a 6th form so it could be worth a try. Thanks Karen for the numbers still having trouble getting through but wont give up trying.

[Karen A]

Thank you so much for your ideas and words of encouragment. WOW today i was sent a letter from my sons school saying that they are supporting me at tribunal, the letter contains lots of information on how needy he is, and also that he will need so much post 16 support. This has given me yhe idea that i might be able to discuss post 16 at the same time at tribunal. I dont no if this is aloud have to look into it. The school we want our son to go to has a 6th form so it could be worth a try. Thanks Karen for the numbers still having trouble getting through but wont give up trying.

 

 

Hi.I was thinking today.You are probably having trouble getting through because I feel like I have spent the last few days posting links to help lines for numerous people all in rubbish situations.Perhaps that is why they are busy.

Sounds like some positive news for you anyway. Karen.

 

[Kazzen161]

, and also that he will need so much post 16 support. This has given me yhe idea that i might be able to discuss post 16 at the same time at tribunal. I dont no if this is aloud have to look into it. The school we want our son to go to has a 6th form so it could be worth a try.

 

I don't think the Tribunal will base their decision on whether it has got a 6th form (and the LA might fight harder against it because it has - knowing that they are likely to end up paying for even longer). Statements are subject to review, so if the LA object to him staying on you would have to go back to Tribunal. However, you could say that if he did go to this school, it would be a bonus that IF he needs to stay on, then there would be continuity. The LAs know that once a child is in specialist provision, those schools know the right things to say to ensure they get to stay on at 16+.

[Sally44]

Hi.I was thinking today.You are probably having trouble getting through because I feel like I have spent the last few days posting links to help lines for numerous people all in rubbish situations.Perhaps that is why they are busy.

Sounds like some positive news for you anyway. Karen.

 

Maybe your referals should have a direct line like the red telephone line in Batman

[Karen A]

Maybe your referals should have a direct line like the red telephone line in Batman

Just wish there was a superhero somewhere so that the calls were not needed.

 

[Sally44]

That is brilliant if school are supporting you.

I'm not sure on Statements post 16, but I know they don't automatically end at 16. I would check it out through one of the agencies previously mentioned ie. NAS, ISPEA etc.

If you get the placement you are after you may not even need to bring up 'post 16'. If that school already has SEN children in the 6th form then the Statement provision might just continue. Highlighting post 16 provision to the LEA might give them an extra reason to contest the placement, so I would find out about it beforehand.

Have you ever contacted Social Services with regard to services they might be able to give your son? It might be worth finding out about what is available as there has been a big push recently by the NAS about adults with ASDs in the community and highlighting the need for support through social services.

My family did involve SS with my older sister when we wanted to help her move into her own flat. My sister has learning disabilities. She eventually moved out when she was in her forties and she lives independently with support.

But if he is going to need alot of support with learning life skills then a social worker experienced in ASDs would be really useful.

[Kathryn]

Hi Julie,

 

As your son is only 13, it's best not to rely too much on the post 16 argument: it is not a major part of your case and the tribunal will not focus on it. Tthey will want to know about his needs now, not in the future. Although a statement can continue until a child is 19 if he/she is enrolled in a school, when your son reaches 16 the LA may well try to cease the statement anyway on the basis that there is adequate provision for him at his local FE college. So that's a separate battle for the future.

 

Regarding the new tribunal system, don't worry about it too much. As I said before, the rules haven't changed and the tribunal will still base their decisions on the same legal principles. As I said before, only the process has changed: i.e. the timings for sending in evidence and other paperwork, and you might find the system has improved since your last appeal - there will be a lot more pressure on the LA to defend themselves before the hearing date, for example. You can get telephone support from IPSEA or the NAS to guide you through the process. In the meantime, if you have any particular questions about the new system, I may be able to help you, so feel free to ask.

 

K x