Can Anyone advise me

[alexmum2]

Hi i have a question does anyone know the criteria for moving my ds(who is statmented for25hours) from a main stream school to a SEN school?

I have been told that it is not straight forward, and that they will not probably take him if they have no spaces; also what help and support can I expect to get from the school he is at. My DS has announced that he canot got back to his old school as the bullying is more that he can take; have spoken to the school several times re: this but they say that they have not witnessed any bullying; ds also has only one friend at the school and is on anti depressents at the moment for his anxiety.

[Kazzen161]

Hi i have a question does anyone know the criteria for moving my ds(who is statmented for25hours) from a main stream school to a SEN school?

I have been told that it is not straight forward, and that they will not probably take him if they have no spaces; also what help and support can I expect to get from the school he is at. My DS has announced that he canot got back to his old school as the bullying is more that he can take; have spoken to the school several times re: this but they say that they have not witnessed any bullying; ds also has only one friend at the school and is on anti depressents at the moment for his anxiety.

 

If it is a MLD school, generally they will only take children who are not working at mainstream level. You would have to be sure that the MLD school managed bullying well (the mix of children there could mean he is subject to more bullying). Yes, they can only take your child if they have a place - ring and ask them. Don't make any decisions without first visiting the school - there are good and bad SEN schools.

 

If the school are saying your child is doing well at the school, it will be hard to persuade the LA to change him to a SEN school. It is unusual for mainstream schools to support a transfer, unless things are really bad, as it is seen as a failure on their part. When was his last annual review? What was the outcome of it? (There is a question: is this placement still suitable?). You would need to collect evidence to show the school is not meeting your child's needs (as specified in his statement) - have you taken him to your GP/psychiatrist? Do you have records of the bullying and the school's response?

[alexmum2]

Kazzen 161 Last reveiw was in July bfore end of term; yes there are records of some of the bullying my ds has made a statement about one particular incedent where he was hurt. i have been around the SEN school several times and my son knows a couple of kids that go there, also he went to a birthday party for one of them recently and there were several of this boys class mates there my son was amazed to see that they were just the same as he was.

i am at my wits end as i have to phone the school tomorrow. the unfortunate thing is that the SENCO from last year has retired and a new one will be taking over on Wednesday. She no dought will have repotrs on my ds and his TA will have filled her in but this doesn't help our case. I know my GP will support the move as will the psychiatrist for CAMHS, but i am still sick with worry as he is quite adament he will not go back.

[Kazzen161]

If he refuses to go, take him to your GP and ask him to sign him off with anxiety. That way, the absences can be authorised, and the school may take some notice. You could call the Education Welfare Office (or whatever they call it now) and ask them to help - they are supposed to help school refusers. They can also get the school to take the bullying seriously. Your Health Visitor can also be useful in mediating between you and the school.

 

If the Review in July said the school was still an appropriate placement, then it could take a while to gather enough evidence to prove otherwise.

 

Have you looked at specialist schools too?

[bid]

If he refuses to go, take him to your GP and ask him to sign him off with anxiety. That way, the absences can be authorised, and the school may take some notice. You could call the Education Welfare Office (or whatever they call it now) and ask them to help - they are supposed to help school refusers. They can also get the school to take the bullying seriously. Your Health Visitor can also be useful in mediating between you and the school.

 

If the Review in July said the school was still an appropriate placement, then it could take a while to gather enough evidence to prove otherwise.

 

Have you looked at specialist schools too?

 

Kazzen is right, it's absolutely vital that you get your son formally signed off school on medical grounds, which includes anxiety.

 

Bid

[Sally44]

Do you know if the SEN school has any places available. And does your son fit their 'criteria'.

[bid]

Another point: you have to prove to your LA that your son's needs are not being/cannot be met within mainstream, rather than how good the special school would be for him.

 

Bid

[Sally44]

How much sway does 'parental choice' play when there is a mainstream and SEN school, both of which are saying they can meet the child's needs. Would they consider parental choice and also the fact that the child is suffering from anxiety etc.

[bid]

How much sway does 'parental choice' play when there is a mainstream and SEN school, both of which are saying they can meet the child's needs. Would they consider parental choice and also the fact that the child is suffering from anxiety etc.

 

A special school placement is only made when the needs of the child cannot be met within mainstream, so if this is the case it doesn't matter if the special school can meet them too, nor indeed what parental choice might be.

 

Bid

[Kathryn]

It's a stressful time alexmum, and good luck with speaking to the school today. Let us know how it went.

 

As others have said, to have a chance of getting a special school place you will need to show sound educational reasons why the mainstream school (and any other mainstream school for that matter) isn't suitable for your child. Bullying - whilst extremely distressing for your son and you, is not necessarily enough evidence in itself, as they LEA might just suggest that the school deal with it better, or suggest a move to another mainstream school.

 

If you feel there is enough professional evidence to support the change to a specialist school, you could request a statutory reassessment, with a view to getting a new statement at the end of it, naming a specialist school. It's a lengthy process though, especially if you are are forced to appeal.

 

K x

[Sally44]

Although, as you say, bullying is probably not going to be considered a reason to move to a SEN school, could her son's response to the bullying be more relevant ie. someone with an ASD has less language/social skills to deal with it themselves or to seek help from an appropriate adult, and the fact that he is on anti depressents hold some sway.

But apart from that, you need to be able to demonstrate how the mainstream school is not meeting his needs, or is not the best use of the LEA's resources ie. the resources would be best used in a SEN environment.

Does the mainstream school meet his educational, social, sensory etc needs?

Does the SEN school teach any life skills that the mainstream school does not.

Also make sure you get doctors notes for any sickness or depression/anxiety/stress or behavioural issues that you think are due to him not coping mainstream. I've recently had to do this myself because my son was vomiting due to anxiety. We had to be referred to the childrens' hospital to see the paediatrician, who agrees that he appears to have no underlying medical condition causing this to happen and therefore she is writing to the school nurse to explain that they cannot send him home for 48 hours every time he is sick, and that they should consider his anxiety/stress/or sensory needs. So at least I now have that on record.

[Sally44]

A special school placement is only made when the needs of the child cannot be met within mainstream, so if this is the case it doesn't matter if the special school can meet them too, nor indeed what parental choice might be.

 

Bid

 

 

The reason I queried this was because someone did post that their parental choice of an SEN school was agreed to, eventhough her child 'could' have gone mainstream (from an academic point of view - I think). Obviously there was a place available, but in this case the parent did not have to go to tribunal over it. I think this is probably a very isolated case, as you say, most LEAs look at mainstream as the first choice and parents have to demonstrate how that is not working or will not work.

[alexmum2]

Hi all,

tried several times to contact ds mainstream school today without success; in the end i wrote a short letter addressing it to the new SENCO explaining that Alex will not be back in school on thursday as due to his stress and anxiety we as a family were taking a break away and would be in contact with her on our return.

Explained that it was a decision only made recently, thats way the school was not infromed earlier.

Went to the school to deliver this by hand,there were several members of the reception staff around so i handed it to one of them; however I did ask if i could speak to the SENCO if she was available. Unfortunately she couldn't be found.

Made a call to Ed Wefare asking what the criteria was and how I would stand legaly if my son (due to metal strees ect) could not return to school; he was very helpful and gave me a contact number for an Ed welfare officer who was attached to the school, needless to say i called this number and left a message as there was no one around to take my call.

Also contacted SEN school no reply so again dropped a letter to the head requesting appointment, contact another SEN school (which i have heard several good things about) spoke to secretary who gave me her email to contact her on our return to arrange appointment she was very helpful and sounded concerned. Thats all i can do for the present. Also contacted Parent Partnership for advise no one available left message. Senco from ds mainstream school did not get back to me. Thanks will try to enjoy our break but this hanging over us will not help.

[Daisydot]

Hi Alexmum, sounds like its all very stressfull at the moment. hope the following helps a little.

 

If, as you said, your GP and CAHMS would support the move to a SEN school, and you can get your GP to sign Alex off as a school refuser on the grounds of Anxiety, I would have thought that was a very good start. The LA I work for provide home tuition for pupils who are school refusers (we actually see a lot of this and it usually eventually ends in a move from mainstream to a SEN school). Anything from CAHMS or a Consultant is much more powerful than from a GP. The only thing is, its not necessarily a quick process and you will need to stand your ground and be patient and consistent in stating your child's anxiety and phobia about school. Every LA does thing slightly differently, but home ed may be worth asking for whilst things are sorted out. Also, its important to keep talking to the school and the Education Welfare Officer, so that they see Alex as a school refuser (also known as a school phobic) rather than a persistant absentee.

 

Good luck.

 

You could also contact IPSEA or a solicitor.

[bid]

Hi Alexmum,

 

You must get a letter from your GP or your son's consultant saying he is unfit for school on medical grounds. Without this your LA can say you have chosen to remove your son from education.

 

Without this you will find yourself in an extremely vulnerable position, both with regard to the LA meeting your son's needs, and also legally with regard to unauthorised absence.

 

Bid

[Daisydot]

Hi again, Alex Mums

 

Bid is right, you must get your GP to sign Alex off as soon as you can.. I note you have already contacted Parent Partnership. I would encourage that you keep calling them and get their help - I found them a huge help and they will be able to advise you how to proceed with your LA.

[Sally44]

It is also important not to give the impression that you are prepared to home educate yourself. So make sure they understand that if your son cannot attend school due to medical grounds, that the LA will have to send in tutors whilst the placement issue is resolved (and find out what the LAs responsibility is regarding that. They have to provide an education service, not someone who comes for a couple of hours a week). Any suggestion you are prepared to home educate yourself will mean the LA could push along that route as it means they are no longer responsible for funding, therapies etc as you will have effectively taken over.

Also very important to get GP/CAHMS or other professional/consultant letter confirming all this. You need written evidence from a professional that your son is refusing school due to a medical condition (ie. anxiety/depression/stress etc)

[alexmum2]

Yes DaisyDot Bid

I intend to take him to our GP when we return we also have an appointment with the Nero Physiology dept at our local hospital this was asked for by our physiologist from CAHMS, as i know he will not be able continue as he is; the saddest thing is that he wants to learn he enjoys most of his lessons it's just the other kids in his class and some staff that he has a really serious problems with.

[Karen A]

It is also important not to give the impression that you are prepared to home educate yourself. So make sure they understand that if your son cannot attend school due to medical grounds, that the LA will have to send in tutors whilst the placement issue is resolved (and find out what the LAs responsibility is regarding that. They have to provide an education service, not someone who comes for a couple of hours a week). Any suggestion you are prepared to home educate yourself will mean the LA could push along that route as it means they are no longer responsible for funding, therapies etc as you will have effectively taken over.

Also very important to get GP/CAHMS or other professional/consultant letter confirming all this. You need written evidence from a professional that your son is refusing school due to a medical condition (ie. anxiety/depression/stress etc)

 

Hi.I thought I would mention.I do not think there is any legal obligation for the LA to send in tutors.I have been taking a breather over the summer and have not checked for a while.However the last time I checked the LA only was obliged to provide appropriate alternative arrangements.This might be in the form of work provided by school,a pupil referal unit [which could be a general PRU] or home tuition. Where home tutoring is provided a minumum of five hours per week is allowed.Also there is no obligation to make alternative arrangements until a pupil has been out of education on medical grounds for fifteen days.

I am very unsure what the LA would consider the situation to be where a pupil has not returned after the summer break.I think that unless a pupil has sustained a specific injury during the holiday there may be an increased risk of the pupil failing to be registered on the school role for the year.

 

I think it would be worth obtaining advice and in documenting very clearly that you currently wish your child to remain on the school role.Karen.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Karen A

[Karen A]

Hi.I think it might be difficult to obtain any support from the LA for the time being if you have stated that you are taking a break away with your son.The LA may well say that if your son is well enough to be away with the family then he is well enough to be at school.As such the abscence may well be regarded as unauthorised.I do not think that the LA will count the time away towards the ten days of medical abscence before they need to make alternative provision.I am concerened that the LA may class this as unauthorised abscence which could create difficulties.It is certainly very important to obtain specific authorisation for this abscence as bid has said.

 

Edited having checked my facts.The LA needs to make arrangements for alternative provision after 15 days ..

http://publications.teachernet.gov.uk/eOrd...S-0025-2002.pdf

This is the publication re medical needs in case it is helpful.Karen.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Karen A

[Kazzen161]

The LA can consider aspects other than education in their choice of placement if those needs are specified in the statement (eg: emotional; behavioural; life, independence and social skills).

 

If two schools can equally meet the needs of the child, then the LA must go for the "most efficient use of resources" (ie the cheapest).

 

If a child is so anxious he cannot actually attend the school, then he is not accessing an education. You would have to convince the LA that he would attend another school. The first thing that the LA will want is for the mainstream school to sort out the bullying.

[Kathryn]

If two schools can equally meet the needs of the child, then the LA must go for the "most efficient use of resources" (ie the cheapest).

 

The mainstream school will generally be the cheaper option, but it depends. Sometimes LA's purchase a certain number of places at maintained special schools: they are funded whether the places are filled or not. If the school is undersubscribed the LA may be willing to go with parental preference for the special school on the basis that the place is already funded and so won't cost them any extra. I know of a case where this happened.

 

K x

[alexmum2]

Kathryn Hi,

I believe that the school my son wishes to go to is over subscribed therefore I know i will have difficulties in getting him a place; it's my job to convince the LEA that main stream is not the place for him ; I know his mental state will only get worse if they give us no choice but to keep him in mainstream, I cannot afford to let this happen.

It's saddens me to think that there maybe other children out there like ds who suffer like him, everyday because they can't cope in a main stream situation, and that they are only there because of the money issue.

[Daisydot]

It's saddens me to think that there maybe other children out there like ds who suffer like him, everyday because they can't cope in a main stream situation, and that they are only there because of the money issue.

 

Its happening to children all the time in the LA I work for. Decisions are based on money and or politics and rarely what is best for the child and never parental preference. Its a very sad enditement of our education system.

[JsMum]

is on anti depressents at the moment for his anxiety.

 

Is his medication been monitored, the fact he cant take any more is a real concern, I would be very vigilant of his behaviour and moods, how long has he been on his Anti Depressants, also does your son have moderate learning difficulties, it may be unsuitable to place him in a MLD school if his primary needs are social, mental and emotional, if he is a bright and inteligent young man, it may not meet his abilities, I would look at spersific specialist schools that meet his social impairments and focus on rebuilding his ability to cope with the bullies, the monderate learning difficulties special school our LEA tried to place my son on a visit in the playground I witnessed a group of boys targeting a lone boy, bullying is in all schools it is how the school deal with it that is essential.

 

I personally would look at the social, emotional, mental health needs and push for these to be met, prefrably in a specialist school.

 

JsMumxxx

 

[Kazzen161]

Kathryn Hi,

I believe that the school my son wishes to go to is over subscribed therefore I know i will have difficulties in getting him a place; it's my job to convince the LEA that main stream is not the place for him ; I know his mental state will only get worse if they give us no choice but to keep him in mainstream, I cannot afford to let this happen.

 

You also need to have a good idea of the school the LA will offer should you succeed in showing that mainstream is not right. The next school needs to be the right one if your child is to recover and blossom.

[alexmum2]

Kazzanne161 yes i know this however if LEA say that there is only one place avalible in the counthat does not if fell meets ds needs) then where do I go from here?

[baddad]

You also need to have a good idea of the school the LA will offer should you succeed in showing that mainstream is not right. The next school needs to be the right one if your child is to recover and blossom.

 

I think the above is sound advice - an inappropriate specialist school could be just as damaging as an inappropriate mainstream.

 

You need to research what is available, make your choice about which can best meet his needs and then gather evidence to show why. That means showing why the schools you've rejected can't meet his needs as well as showing why the ones you've approved can. The first bit - including the current school - should be your current priority, because until you've established to the LEA's satisfaction (which basically means having such a strong hand that they can't ignore it) that his needs aren't being/aren't able to be met the second bit won't even be considered.

 

If you only identify one school that can meet his needs in County you'll need to back that up with evidence of why: what that school offers that no other school can, and why/how that lack of provision/expertise makes the other schools inappropriate. If that only appropriate school is genuinely oversubscribed (it's surprising how often schools listed as oversubscribed can sometimes make room to squeeze in 'just one more' when there are no other options and the LEA agree) then you have two choices: argue for out of County provision or make some compromises regarding the in-county alternatives. Sometimes it's just not possible to get the 'right' school, and you just have to weigh up the pro's and cons and go for the 'least wrong' one. In either case you have to show the LEA why.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Karen A]

Hi.I was also thinking that if the main issue you are having is with bullying it is worth bearing in mind that specialist schools can have trouble with bullying in just the same way as mainstream.

There have been cases on the Forum in the time I have been here of parents having major concerns about bullying in Specialist Provision.

 

This might be the case even more so where the school is not specialist ASD provision but also caters for children with other learning difficulties which might include BESD.Also staff in none ASD specialist provision for learning difficulties may not be aware of the Social Communication Difficulties that may make children with ASD more vulnerable to bullying.

Karen.

[Kazzen161]

I agree with Bid - research and find the school that is right for your child, then prepare your case to back that up.

 

I had to prove 20+ schools could not meet my child's needs before the LA (reluctantly) agreed to send him to the school I had already identified as right for him (and even that one was not "perfect").