Not Sure What to Think about this?

[tomsmum]

I have lurked and read the boards on this site for some time. I want some views on my son's new teachers approach to dealing with his outbursts which he has regularly in class. He is 10 years old and diagnosed with AS. He frequently becomes frustrated in class for many reasons eg others teasing, not being able to deal with noise and disruption from other children, not getting the teachers undivided attention to impart some knowledge that he feels is important to share with the teacher. He has always struggled to contain his temper but has progressed and the outbursts usually consist of making loud aggressive noises and or rolling around the floor in the middle of the room hence drawing more attention to himself. He has just started year 6 with a teacher new to the school. He has told me that she is picking on him and when I asked why he thought this he has explained that when he has an outburst she is automatically giving other children in the class house points for ignoring him.

 

I can't decide what I think about this previously he has had an area in the room that he is able to retreat to but this has not been implemented by the teacher and she has told him that she believes he is attention seeking. I don't disagree with her completely but i think there is more to it than that and that this method could add additional stress and hence start the cycle of deteriorating behaviour we have seen before.

 

I would be grateful for others views on this before I speak to the teacher as I say I can see some logic to this approach but I am not sure that in the long term it will be beneficial to him.

 

Thanks for any views you have.

[Sooze2]

Giving the other kids house points for ignoring him will just alienate him and encourage them to bully him surley, she obviousely has no idea what to do in this situation and even if he is attention seeking she is going about dealing with it totally the wrong way.

 

I would go and speek to her tomorrow if it was me and tell her what has worked in the past and suggest you both have a meeting with his old teacher and SENCO together so she can be taught the best way forward.

 

To be honest I would be totally livid about this. She sounds very hard faced and old school.

 

Just editing to say that my son would be in almost total meltdown in class if he was treated this way because his class mates opinions of him mean everything to him! He would then also come home and screem and shout at me every night and then before school out of frustration - you could point out to her that the way she is handling him is effecting your home life as a knock on effect.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Sooze2

[Kathryn]

Welcome to the forum tomsmum.

 

Obviously the teacher needs to help your son manage his frustration levels so that the disruptive behaviour is minimised, and maybe some adjustments need to be made to the environment as well.

 

I can see what she's trying to do but, agree with Sooze that there is a danger of alienating him further from the class. By rewarding them, she is actually drawing the other pupils' attention to his negative behaviour and reinforcing the idea that he is a nuisance. She might be better off giving him the housepoints instead, for good behaviour.

 

Is he statemented or getting any other support in class?

 

K x

[tomsmum]

Thanks very much for the quick responses my immediate reaction was that this approach was wrong but wanted some other opinions before I went into school.

 

He does not have a statement and does not have specific support in class. He does have some time during the week in a social skills group and a couple of sessions before school each week to discuss what is happening in class and the school that week with a chance to express any concerns he has.

 

After a major deterioration in his behaviour at school last December which resulted in him becoming very distressed and starting to self harm there are now several professionals involved CAHM's, Team Around School, SALT, OT and reassessment by Pead's for ADHD and ODD. However, trying to get a consensus of opinions from these professionals is proving virtually impossible and trying to get the school to then act on any of the recommendations is difficult to say the least.

 

The school are reluctant to go for a statement as he is not struggling academically quite the opposite in fact. I realise we could request a statutory assessment but feel that without the schools support this would be problematic. We try to maintain a good relationship with the school.

 

Your advice is much appreciated.

 

 

 

[Sooze2]

You could play it this way and say that it would be beneficial to the school staff for him to have a statement so the teachers had some support in dealing with him so they could concentrate on the rest of the class while his TA helped your son. This is how I played it with DS's school, saying how hard it must be for them to concentrate on teaching when he is being a pain and him needing constant redirection and supervision must be distracting and detrimental to his class mates learning. Sometimes saying what they must be thinking out loud for them helps a bit. Worth a try, I would deffinately go and see his teacher tomorrow morning though, I'm sure they don't realise that our kids tell us this stuff - my lot tell me everything - no secrets here - and part of DS's thing is his honesty your boy sounds very open too which I think is a great thing. xx

Edited September 10, 2009 by Sooze2

[Kazzen161]

At it's worst, this approach could just end up rewarding the children for annoying your son (eg: they are more noisy - he gets more upset - they get rewarded for ignoring him).

 

I can't see any purpose/justification for giving house points for ignoring him. The children in the class I am a TA in, are used to ignoring one child (even if he is under their table) - a quiet reminder to them is all that is needed. They see it as helping him to calm down.

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Totally agree with Sooze.

 

I think that's outrageous giving children house points for ignoring your son's behaviour. I agree that it can be good to praise kids who are behaving well and attempting to ignore ones that are not (if appropriate). I feel this is creating divisions (alienating) and places emphasis on the fact that your son has difficulties.

 

Caroline.

[Karen A]

Hi.Sorry I am a bit late to this.

I have Ben who is 11 and has AS.He has just started in year 7.

Ben was I think very like your son.He has just started at secondary.Although he still has some difficulties he is doing much better than a year ago.

I think one thing that has made a difference is some intensive support in a structured way in learning what he does need to do when he wants the teacher to listen or when he is frustrated.Rewarding the other pupils would work well as a general strategy for NT pupils but it will not help your son to learn what he needs to do instead.

We also have a system for a refuge for Ben if he becomes frustrated or anxious.It worked well in primary with clear understanding that it was not a sanction but a place to help Ben to be less worked up.He has not needed it at secondary.

Ben has had weekly psychotherapy and fortnightly ASD outreach support to help him with the issues you mention for three years so it does take time.

Ben has a Statement for 15 hours plus delegated funding via a Statement.

We have ongoing difficulties in obtaining agreeement amongst professionals as we have input from numerous agencies.As you may gather from current threads elsewhere I am yet to resolve these. I call myself a ''Care Coodinator'' so do appreciate your frustration.

Ben does not struggle accademically either but SEN does not have to relate to just accademic ability it is supposed to cover all areas of school life.

When Ben was almost excluded and was spending time hiding under tables he certainly could not access the curriculum.

Karen.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Karen A

[mummy]

I was shocked when I read this post. The teacher giving away house to points to others kids for ignoring him? I think that's outrageous! Yes by all means a gentle reminder to them but how about supporting your son so he doesn't get into tht kind of state in the first place.

 

Why has his quiet area been discontinued? In my opinion a time out card or a 'kit-kat' (have a break) table are vital. And I sincerely hope that the teacher starts rewarding your son for his good behaviour. What she is doing is humiliating him by drawing attention to his 'bad' behaviour. Is this not discrimination?. It is certainly very poor professional practise!

 

You must spend some time with the teacher and your son together to find a way you can all best help him Find out what his triggers are and how these can be avoided, instead of trampling him when he is down.

Good luck

Mummy x

[puffin]

I think that the teacher's behaviour is outrageous she is setting your child up to be bullied - I think that you should contact the head at once

 

I would be seriously questioning why your child's coping mechnism - a quiet room - has been taken away when it is obvious that he is not coping. It sounds as though the teacher is not making reasonable adjustments - it might be a good idea to contact IPSEA for advice

http://www.ipsea.org.uk/

 

It sounds as though this teacher has no clue how to deal with AS - are you sure that this is the right school for your child

[JsMum]

 

 

 

I would put in writing a letter of concern to your senco and request that the current teacher follow the previous recommendations of a zone area for your son, you have evidence that without this your son is becoming very distressed.

 

I would also share your concerns that other children are been treated more favourbly and it may meet the criteria for Disability Discrimination you can gain more information from Ipsea as already been recommended.

 

I would push for an assessment straight away as you have evidence to show that your son is having considerable difficulties in Behaviour, emotioanal, and mental distress, all under the SEN Code of practice, children do not need to be acidemically low to gain a statement, my son is gaining level 5 in subjects and he is in a specialist school.

 

Are you in any local parent support groups for parents of children with Aspergers Syndrome?

 

I think its positive that he is eager to share his enthusiasum with his teacher and this needs encourgaing for him to remain interested in his education, it is clear from what you have written he requires 1-1 support.

 

I would push for a statement, it can take upto a year so it will be in time for when he starts year 7 secondary school where he is going to need far more intensive support and transition plans for him to cope in a mainstream secondary.

 

Good Luck.

 

JsMumxxxx

 

[tomsmum]

Thanks for all the responses I have finally been given an appointment to see the teacher on Thursday of this week.

 

This week has not improved for him. He has been in trouble for calling his teacher an 'idiot'. This was following an incident where he lost his temper and after calming him-self down successfully some kids in the class were making fun of him he (as he has been told to do) reported this to the teacher who responded with "I am not surprised that they laughed at you I nearly laughed myself". After he called the teacher an idiot the headteacher was called who told him he was acting in such an infantile manner that he was going to call the head teacher of his previous infant school and have him sent back. This is the school that treated him so badly that he is still having counselling to help him cope with it.

 

At the end of last term after a rough time around christmas things were settled and he had started to show some of his true potential. It seems that every time this happens the school either thinks they have cured him or they just forget everything and have to start again.

 

It just seems so difficult to get the health professionals and schools to work together for his best interests.

 

It really helps to get advice and support from people on here who understand what it is like as sometimes I think I sound like a cracked record to family and friends.

 

 

 

 

[Karen A]

Thanks for all the responses I have finally been given an appointment to see the teacher on Thursday of this week.

 

This week has not improved for him. He has been in trouble for calling his teacher an 'idiot'. This was following an incident where he lost his temper and after calming him-self down successfully some kids in the class were making fun of him he (as he has been told to do) reported this to the teacher who responded with "I am not surprised that they laughed at you I nearly laughed myself". After he called the teacher an idiot the headteacher was called who told him he was acting in such an infantile manner that he was going to call the head teacher of his previous infant school and have him sent back. This is the school that treated him so badly that he is still having counselling to help him cope with it.

 

At the end of last term after a rough time around christmas things were settled and he had started to show some of his true potential. It seems that every time this happens the school either thinks they have cured him or they just forget everything and have to start again.

 

It just seems so difficult to get the health professionals and schools to work together for his best interests.

 

It really helps to get advice and support from people on here who understand what it is like as sometimes I think I sound like a cracked record to family and friends.

 

Hi.Ben has just moved to secondary school and appears to be doing well.

However I thought I would relate one experience from the previous school.

The norm at the previous school was to threaten to send children who were troublesome to the HT.The threat was expected to encourage them to behave.

Having worked his way through various members of staff one afternoon Ben was then told he would be sent to the HT.Ben responded by taking the oppurtunity with open arms.

He spent about an hour with the HT voicing his views on policy,procedures etc etc in an ever escalating scenario.Eventually I was called to take Ben home.

The school did learn that threats did not help in difffusing the situation.

Karen.

 

[tomsmum]

I can really relate to your story. Last year Tom took to running out of class the teacher said that if this happened Tom would go straight to HT . So surprise surprise it carried on happening cue time sat in the headteachers office have a nice chat.

 

They really don't get it do they?

 

Thanks for the support.

 

Dawn

 

 

[puffin]

Are you sure that you want your child to be in this school?

 

My DD 13 AS/ADHD was placed in a class with a teacher who refused to support her AS needs - they also removed access to a quiet room which was a major self calming mechanism and the situation escalated into pyshical bullying by the teacher who strangely enough was the school's self professed autism expert (who bother to ask her calmly and clearly to do something when it is quicker to physically drag the child around) - things just became a negative spiral until one day we just decided that enough was enough.

 

Since she moved away from the class to an SEN unit - she has not looked back academically or behaviourally - I think that the teacher's behaviour directly contributed to the breakdown at the placement - out kids need consistency - yet she never knew how the teacher was going to react. Funnily enough she didn't have this problem with the non "autism" trained staff - and the SEN unit arrnaged for her to attend classes not taught be this teacher (music, drama, woodwork, textiles).

[tomsmum]

We have had such a bumpy ride with the school yrs 3 and 4 were good year 4 in particular where he had a very good newly qualified teacher and that year got a head teachers award for good behaviour and achieved very well academically. Last year was ok after a rocky start and lots of input from outside agency. 9 days into a new term and everything is undone. My heart is telling me to remove him but I will meet with them on Thursday and see if there is a way forward. It seems that each teacher is a law unto themselves rather than learning from their colleagues experience about what works and following the IEP they all have their own views on how to deal with children with AS. I would like to see if they treated kids with more visible disabilities in the same way.

[Kathryn]

This week has not improved for him. He has been in trouble for calling his teacher an 'idiot'. This was following an incident where he lost his temper and after calming him-self down successfully some kids in the class were making fun of him he (as he has been told to do) reported this to the teacher who responded with "I am not surprised that they laughed at you I nearly laughed myself". After he called the teacher an idiot the headteacher was called who told him he was acting in such an infantile manner that he was going to call the head teacher of his previous infant school and have him sent back. This is the school that treated him so badly that he is still having counselling to help him cope with it.

 

Ouch - not very helpful responses!

 

 

You said in an earlier post:

 

The school are reluctant to go for a statement as he is not struggling academically quite the opposite in fact. I realise we could request a statutory assessment but feel that without the schools support this would be problematic. We try to maintain a good relationship with the school.

 

It might be worth bringing this up at the meeting and discussing it as a possiblity, even if you have discussed it before. The school might be willing to think again in the light of his recent problems. You're right in saying that it's easier to go down the statementing route with the school's support, but it's not impossible without it, and requesting an assessment would at least force all the agencies and the school to work together, within a particular timeframe, to look at your son's problems in a focused way.

 

Good luck for Thursday,

 

K x

 

 

 

[AS_Teacher]

Thanks for all the responses I have finally been given an appointment to see the teacher on Thursday of this week.

 

This week has not improved for him. He has been in trouble for calling his teacher an 'idiot'. This was following an incident where he lost his temper and after calming him-self down successfully some kids in the class were making fun of him he (as he has been told to do) reported this to the teacher who responded with "I am not surprised that they laughed at you I nearly laughed myself". After he called the teacher an idiot the headteacher was called who told him he was acting in such an infantile manner that he was going to call the head teacher of his previous infant school and have him sent back. This is the school that treated him so badly that he is still having counselling to help him cope with it.

The "I nearly laughed myself" comment needs to be raised in this meeting. Try to stay positive and calm. He's has several very good years there by the sounds of things. If you do decide to take him out of there make sure you've exhausted all other options first. Good luck on Thursday.

[Sally44]

Statements are not just for children who are struggling academically. There are even gifted children with statements if their needs are such that hours of support, or staffing provision, or therapies or strategies need to be secured via a statement. The school could be receiving any extra funding needed from the LEA to meet your sons needs. That is what the SEN Code of Practice says.

Get in touch with your local parent partnership as well as they can come to any school meetings with you to give support, advice and to take notes of what is said and agreed. Your son's behaviour is due to his diagnosis. You cannot 'cure' being on the spectrum by punishment, ignoring behaviour alone. I personally would put in writing the things that have happened and say that you find it unacceptable for a vulnerable child to be treated like that. There are so many postive things that could be done. But the school sounds like they are just being confrontational. Is there an autism outreach teacher that can go into school?

My son has a statement and alot of the provison centres around speech and language therapy, work on social skills, dedicated TA support throughout the day, small group work etc. It also allows the school to use other strategies and approaches that they don't have funding for eg. computer software.

The NAS runs local day seminars about the SEN statementing process. It is worth contacting your local NAS group and finding out when they expect to run the next seminar.

You don't need the school to agree with you. Sometimes schools have so little experience and expertise in autism that they don't actually know what they could do or what is available.

[tomsmum]

I had a meeting with the teacher and I am now more concerned than ever. For a start we were time limited as she was late and school was due to start in 15 minutes. She then proceeded to talk at me for 10 minutes without pausing for breath. I was trying to build bridges and not alinate her as I am concious that I will have to send my son into her class everyday. She has described the class and the problems she has. Apparently there are around 10 children whose behaviour is unacceptable and she says she needs another 2 weeks of zero tolerence and rewarding others to in her words "break them and make them comply". She has not been able to implement the measures in my son's IEP as she does not have time or in the case of an area to withdraw the space in the classroom.

She also said that she had a number of children who were not able to access the curriculum due to learning difficulties and if she had to allocate resources to them or my son she would have to chose them. I did say well surely this would then prevent my son from accessing the curriculum. I asked her if she was saying that they needed additional resources for my son should they not consider applying for a statement she said that this would be a lot of effort on their part which they would not see any reward for as it would be put in place for secondary school (he is in YR6).

On a more positive side she said his behaviour had been better for the last two days.

 

Needless to say I am not happy with this and as suggested in the previous post I have contacted parent partnership and they are arranging a meeting with the school ASAP and I will be requesting a stautory assessment myself if the school do not.

 

Thanks for the support I am sure that I will be back looking for more advice and hopefully in time I will be able to offer support to others.

 

Dawn

 

[Sally44]

As you don't have a statement at this stage, your child's IEPs and any reports or advice given to school by SALT/EP etc are very important. If the teacher has said that she cannot implement his IEP, then I would talk to the parent partnership about that and set about wording a letter to her to 'clarify' what was discussed at your meeting. And put in that letter exactly what she said to you, and what the actual position is ie. IEPs should be SMART (specific, measurable, attainable, relevant and time limited). If needs have been identified that are not being met, or areas identified and targets identified on his IEP which are not being met, then that needs to be recorded at the IEP meetings you have in school. This is your evidence that school is not doing what is needed.

PP can go to these meetings and should be able to advise you/school to ensure that targets are SMART.

For example, at my son's last school he had a target 'to identify 50% of the numbers 0-10'. This was not a smart target as it does not state 'when' this will be practised or how often. They did not say how they would 'measure' if the target had been achieved. To identify 50% of the time does not demonstate learning as it also means that 50% of the time he could not identify them. They had no idea of relevant strategies or approaches to use. They did not give a time limit of when he should achieve that by. At the next IEP meeting they did not want to 'record' that he had not achieved that target, and the teacher said that as he was becoming increasingly frustrated with this work that they had decided to move him onto the numbers 11-20. Fortunately that was the first IEP meeting I took the PP along to. She ensured they did record that he had not reached that target. On other targets she insisted that they recorded that he had actually regressed and knew less than previously. She insisted that they seek advice from the Educational Psychologist etc. All of this was evidence I submitted towards the statement. You need to have at least 6 months worth of IEPs to submit along with the request for an assessment.

I was also fobbed off for around 3 years at my son's previous school. They also seemed not to want to put in the initial 'effort' required to actually secure the funding and extra staffing needed to meet his needs. Their approach seemed to be to let him fail until I moved him.

As he is in year 6 he really needs a statement prior to secondary school. And having a Statement gives you access to other educational options. Unfortunately many of these options are usually already full. But if you get the Statement as specific and enforceable and relevant for your child as needed, then that gives you the amunition you need to go to tribunal to request a certain school placement if you can demonstrate that previous placements have not worked and that your son did not have his needs met and did not make progress.

But you are starting in the right direction. Take the marathon runners approach to it. Be methodical and systematic. Check everything you are told and ensure that they do everything by the book. Use the SEN Code of Practice, the PP and any other organisation such as the NAS to get clued up about the process.

The whole point of the statementing process is so that schools are not 'choosing' which pupils to support out of the funding and staff they already have. If she is saying that they are not and cannot meet his needs then he needs a Statement to legally secure the support he needs to make progress in all areas of development, not just the academic ones.

And there have been legal judgements made that 'education' means a child 'learning the skills needed to become independent as an adult'. So that includes social skills, language skills, life skills on top of academic ones.

[Sally44]

And even if you remain mainstream at secondary stage, a specific statement will mean all his needs and how those needs are going to be met will be identified in that Statement. Again the NAS or IPSEA can look at the statement prior to it being finalised and can give advice to you. Remember to contact the NAS about any forthcoming SEN/Statementing seminars and get a copy of the SEN Code of Practice. That in itself is an eye opener about what the LEA/School should be doing.

Also most LEAs have a SEN criteria on their website. You usually have to type in SEN Criteria into the search option, but again that can give you alot of information about what the SEN process is within your LEA. You may find that school have not been doing the things they are responsible for. If that is the case, then you can remind school of their obligations, otherwise the LEA can simply request that the school first comply with their obligations, so it is worth knowing what they are.

[Sooze2]

I would be going to Parent Partnership for advise ASAP and also telling the school SENCO that you want her to start the Statementing process. Has the Educational Phychologist been to see him lately, if not ask Parent Partnership or SENCO to get them in to see him because this is totally outrageous. They are just fobbing you off with sob stories at how hard it is for them which isn't your concern, your only concern is your son and if they help him they help themselves at the end of the day. It sounds like the SENCO isn't doing her job if all the "difficult" kids are causing havoc in the class because they and their parents are probably in the same boat as you - totally frustrated!

 

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