Exclusion from mainstream primary

[Sickandtired]

This is the second time our 9 year old son has been excluded from his primary school in the last year. The headteacher wants him out. We could pursue a disability discrimination tribunal route but feel it's better for our son if we channel our energies into finding him a school that understands his needs and is willing to meet them. The school's view is that he has challenging behaviour caused by bad parenting, most recently allowing him to watch 'high school musical'. LOL

 

With a statement review coming up in a few weeks, we think we need to ask for a reassessment of his needs and a change of setting. We would like to find an independent school that specialises in HFA/AS as the local lea special schools cater for children with severe learning difficulties and/or physical disabilities.

 

Any thoughts/advice would be gratefully received!

Thank you!

[bensmum2]

Hi Just a quick one i cant offer you any help, but i can sympathise that you have been accused of bad parenting, and say you are not alone, our son was only diagnosed wirh asd in july this year at almost 14, just before diagnosis we were told we were the cause of his anxiety about school (he had been off for several months) and it was all about me not our son and if we didnt send him back in straight away they would put him on the child protection register. i sent him back the next day , he only managed half days and he started becoming violent for the first time ever , due to being forced back into mainstream with no help or understanding, once we got a diagnosis i asked the social services for help, 2 weeks later they assessed us as being such good parents we fully met all of our sons needs emotional and otherwise and therefore we were refused help!!!but at least we have on paper that we are great parents, in the end i had to deregister him from school and i am now home schooling him whilst we are appealing a refusal to assess. get yor son a new school , and then go down the dissability discrimination route because if noone stands up to these schools things will never change good luck xx

[Sally44]

This is the second time our 9 year old son has been excluded from his primary school in the last year. The headteacher wants him out. We could pursue a disability discrimination tribunal route but feel it's better for our son if we channel our energies into finding him a school that understands his needs and is willing to meet them. The school's view is that he has challenging behaviour caused by bad parenting, most recently allowing him to watch 'high school musical'. LOL

 

With a statement review coming up in a few weeks, we think we need to ask for a reassessment of his needs and a change of setting. We would like to find an independent school that specialises in HFA/AS as the local lea special schools cater for children with severe learning difficulties and/or physical disabilities.

 

Any thoughts/advice would be gratefully received!

Thank you!

 

Hi sick and tired!

Kathryn has just posted a guidance document issues by Speech and Language Therapy. As you are looking at reviewing the Statement I would recommend you have a read through it. You may find that SALT have not done indepth assessments, or have not identified needs and made recommendations to meet them regardless of resources as this guidance states that the LA should meet any 'mis-match' between needs and funding.

There is also lots of other 'interesting' items in this guidance which I have just started reading and commenting on in the topic. If your child does not have any input from SALT and he has HFA then I would question that as he needs to have difficulties with language/speech and social use of language to have got a diagnosis in the first place.

If you feel the guidance brings up any difficulties you are experiencing, then this should help you get a better idea of what you should ask them to do.

There are also the NAS and IPSEA who can give you advice. The NAS has an educational helpline and also has a tribunal service if you find yourselves heading that way because of changing you want making to the Statement or placement.

What needs do you feel are not being met? Or do you feel that needs have been identified, but recommendations not spelt out as to how to meet those needs?

Is the current Statement being fulfilled?

Hope that is of some help.

[Sally44]

You also want to make sure that the exclusion is recorded properly. I am sure others with experience of this will give you advice on that.

[Karen A]

http://www.ace-ed.org.uk/advice-about-educ...from-school.htm

This may be useful regarding exclusions.It is certainly worth making sure that all exclusions are legal and documented as per the ACE guidance.Please do ensure that you appeal and take every oppurtunity to give a view.Even in the worst case where there is a formal exclusion the fact that you have appealed will be useful.LAs and the Dfes do not consider it good practice for schools to permanently exclude pupils with SEN unless all other options have failed.It will be useful evidence for you even though it is difficult.

 

I also posted some links and information re IPSEA and NAS on this thread that might be useful .

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=21112

 

If you have any other professionals involved at all it may be worth talking to them and ensuring that they are attending the review especially if they are supportive.Professionals might include CAMHS,SALT,ASD outreach.Parent Partnership may be supportive and may well be aware of local information regarding both SEN and exclusion although some are more helpful than others.Karen.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Karen A

[Sickandtired]

Thanks for your replies.

 

Not sure how to access the SALT info that Kathryn has posted - new to all this forum stuff. Please can you explain? Sure that it will be useful. Have just had the school's SALT (in house paid for by the school) say to us that our son's needs are purely behavioural and there's nothing she can do, having 'assessed' his language needs. Her summary was he is charming and was friendly to her. His verbal reasoning skills were only below average in a few areas. Yet his statement says he should get 10 hours of SALT a term!

 

Our son's statement has not been implemented as the school cannot understand that a bright child with language can have a disability. His anxiety is caused by his mother's over anxiety apparently. Although it's good to know that I'm not alone in being treated like this - it's shocking that 'professionals' can and do treat families in this way. If I start to give examples I'll rant and end up crying!

 

We could fight the school but have been there before with another ambitious results-driven school which unofficially excluded our son all the time. We need to get him somewhere where he will be understood and helped.

 

Thanks again for your thoughts and support!

 

 

 

 

[Karen A]

Thanks for your replies.

 

Not sure how to access the SALT info that Kathryn has posted - new to all this forum stuff. Please can you explain? Sure that it will be useful. Have just had the school's SALT (in house paid for by the school) say to us that our son's needs are purely behavioural and there's nothing she can do, having 'assessed' his language needs. Her summary was he is charming and was friendly to her. His verbal reasoning skills were only below average in a few areas. Yet his statement says he should get 10 hours of SALT a term!

 

Our son's statement has not been implemented as the school cannot understand that a bright child with language can have a disability. His anxiety is caused by his mother's over anxiety apparently. Although it's good to know that I'm not alone in being treated like this - it's shocking that 'professionals' can and do treat families in this way. If I start to give examples I'll rant and end up crying!

 

We could fight the school but have been there before with another ambitious results-driven school which unofficially excluded our son all the time. We need to get him somewhere where he will be understood and helped.

 

Thanks again for your thoughts and support!

 

Hi.Sorry lots of questions but I need more information before I can sugggest anything.

Does your son have a diagnosis and if so what is it ?

Does the SALT have experience or training in ASD ?

Does the Statement document that your son has ASD ?

Do you recieve any input from ASD outreach ?

What SALT input is documented in the Statement and what is it for ?

 

I do understand your frustration.Ben is 11 and has AS ,he is very bright and articulate and lots of people still do not understand that he could have SEN.He gets on great with adults who will talk about his interests.I have been told by numerous professionals that Ben is anxious because he picks up on my anxiety.Karen.

 

[Karen A]

I did not ask is the Statement review an Annual Review or an emergency review ?

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1763&a=6741

http://www.ace-ed.org.uk/advice-about-educ...ual-reviews.htm

These might be useful too.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Karen A

[Kazzen161]

Our son's statement has not been implemented as the school cannot understand that a bright child with language can have a disability. His anxiety is caused by his mother's over anxiety apparently.

 

You need to think carefully what you will say at the review.

 

It is disgusting that they are not implementing his statement and there are ways to deal with that if you wanted - or you could say "even with 10 hours of help he is still getting excluded/making no progress/etc" and therefore we feel his needs should be reassessed.

 

The LA are likely to offer to increase his hours before considering a different placement, unless his behaviour is very challenging.

 

I would be wary of telling the LA that you will be asking for an AS/ASD specialist school at this stage, as they are then sure to refuse to: review his needs/amend his statement/consider such a placement.

 

 

[Daisydot]

Sorry to hear you are having a tough time at the moment. Our parenting skills were questioned and I was threatened with social services ! I was also accused of being a trouble maker by the head teacher after I had asked for our son to be moved to an appropriate school for children with severe speech & language difficulties! You are not alone.

 

If your son's statement says 10 hours SALT a term then he must have been assessed at some point in the past and the results of which considered to have been considerable speech and language problems. Otherwise, he wouldnt have got the 10 hours SALT - they dont give SALT out lightly ! My son with SEVERE language problems, had 10 hours per term on his statement originally (it wasnt anywhere near what he needed).

 

It is also a fact that many children with behaviour difficulties have underlying speech & language difficulties. ICAN have a document on this subject on their website, and I expect Afasic will have similar.

 

I would definitely change your son's school. Ask for the LA to support you, if they wont, do it yourself. I would also get an independent Speech & language therapist to assess your son if you can afford it because SALTs who work for Local Authorities are often constrained by LA's telling them what they can and cant say. There is a document posted elsewhere on this forum about Recommendations for SALTs and the SEND Tribunal. Its a great document and hopefully it will eventually filtre through to all therapists, but it hasnt yet. IF you dont want to go down the independent route, I would insist that your son's speech & language difficulties are reassessed by the current therapist.

 

Good luck

 

 

[Karen A]

Hi.I thought a link to the SALT info people are talking about may help as you are new and might not know where it is.

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=22441

Karen.

[Kathryn]

Have just had the school's SALT (in house paid for by the school) say to us that our son's needs are purely behavioural and there's nothing she can do, having 'assessed' his language needs. Her summary was he is charming and was friendly to her. His verbal reasoning skills were only below average in a few areas. Yet his statement says he should get 10 hours of SALT a term!

 

Is it possible then, that the SALT will be discharging him on this basis, and the statement will be amended accordingly? If so, you could quietly let this happen, and then appeal against parts 2,3 and 4 of the amended statement. This might be a quicker route to getting what you want.

 

K x

[Sickandtired]

Hi.I thought a link to the SALT info people are talking about may help as you are new and might not know where it is.

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=22441

Karen.

 

Thank you!

[Karen A]

Is it possible then, that the SALT will be discharging him on this basis, and the statement will be amended accordingly? If so, you could quietly let this happen, and then appeal against parts 2,3 and 4 of the amended statement. This might be a quicker route to getting what you want.

 

K x

 

 

Kathryn I just wanted to say what a clever person you are to spot such a cunning scheme.

[Sickandtired]

Kathryn I just wanted to say what a clever person you are to spot such a cunning scheme.

Good point, which I'll bear in mind. Thanks everyone for all the advice. REally helps.

[Sickandtired]

You need to think carefully what you will say at the review.

 

It is disgusting that they are not implementing his statement and there are ways to deal with that if you wanted - or you could say "even with 10 hours of help he is still getting excluded/making no progress/etc" and therefore we feel his needs should be reassessed.

 

The LA are likely to offer to increase his hours before considering a different placement, unless his behaviour is very challenging.

 

I would be wary of telling the LA that you will be asking for an AS/ASD specialist school at this stage, as they are then sure to refuse to: review his needs/amend his statement/consider such a placement.

 

It is disgusting.

Thanks for your advice. You make some very good points. We'll listen, ask questions and tread very carefully. We know there's no point appealing to the governors (until recently I was one!) and we'd rather focus our energies positively to help our son rather than go down the DD route at this stage. Though if we meet with resistance we will have no option.

 

 

[Sickandtired]

Hi.Sorry lots of questions but I need more information before I can sugggest anything.

Does your son have a diagnosis and if so what is it ?

Does the SALT have experience or training in ASD ?

Does the Statement document that your son has ASD ?

Do you recieve any input from ASD outreach ?

What SALT input is documented in the Statement and what is it for ?

 

I do understand your frustration.Ben is 11 and has AS ,he is very bright and articulate and lots of people still do not understand that he could have SEN.He gets on great with adults who will talk about his interests.I have been told by numerous professionals that Ben is anxious because he picks up on my anxiety.Karen.

Thanks Karen,

 

My son's diagnosis is high functioning autism. The in-house SALT appears to have limited experience with dealing with ASDs. In fact she was an attendee at a recent pct 'intro to autism' training day that I was a parent speaker at in July! SALT provision is to help with social communication skills. He is supposed to have 31 hours of TA support, which he clearly does not have.

 

The ASD outreach worker has not seen my son for at least a term and seems to be avoiding me/him. She must know what's going on but all I've had from her is 'keep on smiling and doing your great work' comments. Not sure what to make of that.

 

Has it not occurred to these people why we are anxious and perhaps we wouldn't be if they did not give us cause!

 

Thanks again for your advice.

 

[Karen A]

Thanks Karen,

 

My son's diagnosis is high functioning autism. The in-house SALT appears to have limited experience with dealing with ASDs. In fact she was an attendee at a recent pct 'intro to autism' training day that I was a parent speaker at in July! SALT provision is to help with social communication skills. He is supposed to have 31 hours of TA support, which he clearly does not have.

 

The ASD outreach worker has not seen my son for at least a term and seems to be avoiding me/him. She must know what's going on but all I've had from her is 'keep on smiling and doing your great work' comments. Not sure what to make of that.

 

Has it not occurred to these people why we are anxious and perhaps we wouldn't be if they did not give us cause!

 

Thanks again for your advice.

 

If you are hoping to get the Statement amended as per Kathryn's excellent suggestion it would be worthwhile getting the SALT provision tightened up so that it specifies that a SALT with experience of ASD is required.

31 hours of TA support sounds to me like almost full time.In my area very few pupils obtain support at this level it would probably the maximium available in mainstream.

ASD outreach should also be involved more regularly if they are documented explicitly in the Statement I would have expected.

I am not often this outspoken but I think some people are having laugh.

 

I think it would certainly be worth contacting either IPSEA or NAS [education advocacy] for some detailed advice regarding what your best course of action should be.

They both offer excellent individual support.It may take a while.However as long as there are some changes however small at the review you should be able to appeal as Kathryn suggests.So you should have some time to obtain specialist advice.Karen.

[Karen A]

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry this is rather naughty of me but I have been in a similar situation and so have some awareness.

 

quote]'keep on smiling and doing your great work' comments. .................''So I don't have to.'' ..............perhaps.

 

[Karen A]

http://www.ipsea.org.uk/

This is the IPSEA number.

 

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=143&a=9995

This is the NAS advocacy for education number.

Karen.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Karen A

[Kazzen161]

He is supposed to have 31 hours of TA support, which he clearly does not have.

 

If the school are not providing the help as per his Statement, it might be difficult to get a change of placement. The first thing the LA will do is ask why the school are not providing all the hours (unless the school are very good at covering it up).

 

It might be worth looking at number 7 on:

 

http://www.ipsea.org.uk/sevenfixes.htm

[Sickandtired]

Sorry this is rather naughty of me but I have been in a similar situation and so have some awareness.

 

quote]'keep on smiling and doing your great work' comments. .................''So I don't have to.'' ..............perhaps.

 

Quite!!!

[Sickandtired]

If the school are not providing the help as per his Statement, it might be difficult to get a change of placement. The first thing the LA will do is ask why the school are not providing all the hours (unless the school are very good at covering it up).

 

It might be worth looking at number 7 on:

 

http://www.ipsea.org.uk/sevenfixes.htm

 

Thank you. I will!

[Sickandtired]

If you are hoping to get the Statement amended as per Kathryn's excellent suggestion it would be worthwhile getting the SALT provision tightened up so that it specifies that a SALT with experience of ASD is required.

31 hours of TA support sounds to me like almost full time.In my area very few pupils obtain support at this level it would probably the maximium available in mainstream.

ASD outreach should also be involved more regularly if they are documented explicitly in the Statement I would have expected.

I am not often this outspoken but I think some people are having laugh.

 

I think it would certainly be worth contacting either IPSEA or NAS [education advocacy] for some detailed advice regarding what your best course of action should be.

They both offer excellent individual support.It may take a while.However as long as there are some changes however small at the review you should be able to appeal as Kathryn suggests.So you should have some time to obtain specialist advice.Karen.

 

It beggars belief doesn't it!?!

 

That is good advice. Thank you. OUr son returns to school tomorrow (God help him!). We have been given 15 minutes of the headteacher's precious time. Will be interested to hear what he says. Have spoken to clued up NAS advisor who is now on the case with us. Thankfully!

[Sickandtired]

Hi Just a quick one i cant offer you any help, but i can sympathise that you have been accused of bad parenting, and say you are not alone, our son was only diagnosed wirh asd in july this year at almost 14, just before diagnosis we were told we were the cause of his anxiety about school (he had been off for several months) and it was all about me not our son and if we didnt send him back in straight away they would put him on the child protection register. i sent him back the next day , he only managed half days and he started becoming violent for the first time ever , due to being forced back into mainstream with no help or understanding, once we got a diagnosis i asked the social services for help, 2 weeks later they assessed us as being such good parents we fully met all of our sons needs emotional and otherwise and therefore we were refused help!!!but at least we have on paper that we are great parents, in the end i had to deregister him from school and i am now home schooling him whilst we are appealing a refusal to assess. get yor son a new school , and then go down the dissability discrimination route because if noone stands up to these schools things will never change good luck xx

Have to say, Home schooling seems like the best option (academically) for our son. But what about his (lack of) social skills? When schools exclude children with SEN - and ASD particularly - it's not just from school but their peer group! I'd be grateful for any top tips you may have. Thanks!

[Sickandtired]

Sorry to hear you are having a tough time at the moment. Our parenting skills were questioned and I was threatened with social services ! I was also accused of being a trouble maker by the head teacher after I had asked for our son to be moved to an appropriate school for children with severe speech & language difficulties! You are not alone.

 

If your son's statement says 10 hours SALT a term then he must have been assessed at some point in the past and the results of which considered to have been considerable speech and language problems. Otherwise, he wouldnt have got the 10 hours SALT - they dont give SALT out lightly ! My son with SEVERE language problems, had 10 hours per term on his statement originally (it wasnt anywhere near what he needed).

 

It is also a fact that many children with behaviour difficulties have underlying speech & language difficulties. ICAN have a document on this subject on their website, and I expect Afasic will have similar.

 

I would definitely change your son's school. Ask for the LA to support you, if they wont, do it yourself. I would also get an independent Speech & language therapist to assess your son if you can afford it because SALTs who work for Local Authorities are often constrained by LA's telling them what they can and cant say. There is a document posted elsewhere on this forum about Recommendations for SALTs and the SEND Tribunal. Its a great document and hopefully it will eventually filtre through to all therapists, but it hasnt yet. IF you dont want to go down the independent route, I would insist that your son's speech & language difficulties are reassessed by the current therapist.

 

Good luck

Thanks Daisy. Can't tell you how much I appreciate everyone's support and advice. I will Check out ICAN also. Thanks again!

[Karen A]

Have to say, Home schooling seems like the best option (academically) for our son. But what about his (lack of) social skills? When schools exclude children with SEN - and ASD particularly - it's not just from school but their peer group! I'd be grateful for any top tips you may have. Thanks!

 

Hi.There are several people on the Forum who Home Ed so I it can work very well for some people.However please bear in mind that if you derigister a child with SEN the LA are no longer under any obligation to provide any SEN input or support at all.Hence they may be very pleased.

If a child is excluded the LA still have a responsibilty to make arrangements for education to be provided by other means.

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=20380

This link contains lots of information on home education if you are thinking about it.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Karen A

[fitzron]

I totally sympathise with you . Schools seem to find it difficult to understand that a bright child can still have SENS .The lack of awareness and understanding is staggering ! Your situation is not that dissimilar to my own. For some reason schools seem to treat bright pupils with ASD purely as a discipline issue rather then giving them the support they need to fulfil their potential which is a legal right enshrined in the Code of Practice.

 

 

 

 

[minerva]

Have to say, Home schooling seems like the best option (academically) for our son. But what about his (lack of) social skills? When schools exclude children with SEN - and ASD particularly - it's not just from school but their peer group! I'd be grateful for any top tips you may have. Thanks!

 

 

Sickandtired my son was out of school for 4 1/2 years while certain messes were dealt with. In my experience professionals blaming the parent is the easiest and cheapest option to solve. Then if their input doesnt work they can merely say that you cant have followed it as they wanted you to and therefore relieve themselves of any blame!!

 

As for socialising, he found it very difficult in any big groups. We tried dance, cubs, scouts, kung fu, swimming, kick bosing and possibly a few more besides! He didnt settle into an out of school club until he started Drama class....it was expensive....but he actually managed to stay there for 3 years!! The longest he'd managed to stay anywhere!! And it did his confidence the world of good!

 

The school was called Helen O'Grady Drama Academy, Is there anything similar in your area?

 

He is now in Air Cadets as his passion is aircraft but he does miss drama.

 

 

 

 

[madme]

How did it go today?

[Sickandtired]

Hi.There are several people on the Forum who Home Ed so I it can work very well for some people.However please bear in mind that if you derigister a child with SEN the LA are no longer under any obligation to provide any SEN input or support at all.Hence they may be very pleased.

If a child is excluded the LA still have a responsibilty to make arrangements for education to be provided by other means.

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=20380

This link contains lots of information on home education if you are thinking about it.

 

Thanks Karen for the info. The school did float the idea of home ed with me a while ago... just in passing (hmmm) so maybe that's what they and the LEA are hoping we will do. Problem solved from their point of view!

 

 

[Sickandtired]

Sickandtired my son was out of school for 4 1/2 years while certain messes were dealt with. In my experience professionals blaming the parent is the easiest and cheapest option to solve. Then if their input doesnt work they can merely say that you cant have followed it as they wanted you to and therefore relieve themselves of any blame!!

 

As for socialising, he found it very difficult in any big groups. We tried dance, cubs, scouts, kung fu, swimming, kick bosing and possibly a few more besides! He didnt settle into an out of school club until he started Drama class....it was expensive....but he actually managed to stay there for 3 years!! The longest he'd managed to stay anywhere!! And it did his confidence the world of good!

 

The school was called Helen O'Grady Drama Academy, Is there anything similar in your area?

 

He is now in Air Cadets as his passion is aircraft but he does miss drama.

Hi Minerva,

We tried scouts too - disaster! And Kung fu (think he'd love this if he got into it but didn't last the first session...). Will google Helen O'Grady drama and see what comes up.

 

[jordansmum33ok]

Hi,

i went on all the parent groups and just went with the system in that if they thought it was my parenting then id try anything.. now more qualified than most off the so called proffesionals but at least they cannot blame me.

 

My son was excuded numerous times from primary an almost was permentantly excluded until i moved areas and we fought for a statement..

best advice i can give is read everything very carefully, and def call NAS and IPSEA as they have been great for me.

 

Good luck

[minerva]

Hi Minerva,

We tried scouts too - disaster! And Kung fu (think he'd love this if he got into it but didn't last the first session...). Will google Helen O'Grady drama and see what comes up.

 

 

I understand that lol

 

Cameron was thrown out of Kick boxing on his first class the rest he managed about 2 or 3 classes before being "asked to leave" as it were lol

 

I think Drama was definately good for him! Good luck with finding something he enjoys :-)