How to choose a Primary School - ASD child

[MrsD]

Hi all,

 

My son is due to start primary school next year. I have to submit my preference in November/December. I'm just about to start looking at schools. My son has been diagnosed with moderate ASD. We don't know yet whether he will need a statement, we are being referred to the Ed Psych. Currently there is funding in place at his pre school for one to one help, so I expect a statement may be likely although he has progressed amazingly well over the past few months.

 

I have been told that a special school is not an option as they will 'not look at him' because his ASD is not severe enough. He is a bright little boy and a few months ago he started talking.

 

He has a twin sister (non ASD), so ideally it would be beneficial for them both to attend the same school. It's all a bit daunting, I know nothing about schools as these are my first and only children.

 

Do you have any advice as to what I should be asking or looking at when I visit these schools?

 

Many thanks.

[JsMum]

 

 

 

I would be requesting an assessment of special educational needs striaght away, who has said that special school is a no way and did they do a full assessment of his SENs, there is communication, soocial, behavioural, emotional, mental developmental needs, they will have to address all of these and a statement would be best, especially to ensure he keeps his full time 1-1 support teacher.

 

It is ideal to have his statement in place from day one.

 

Look throw the helplines on this link and go throw them and start the process now, statementing can take upto a year so get the ball rolling as soon as possible.

 

Good Luck,

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=20381

 

 

JsMumxxxx

 

[MrsD]

Thank you. I'll look at the link.

 

It was the Portage Advisory Teacher at my son's review that told me a special school wouldn't look at him.

 

Dee

x

[justine1]

Hello

I think you should ask loads of questions,for example how would they manage his behaviour?will you be told of his good or bad days?if he is more advanced will they be able to give him more challenging work so that he wont be bored?will they be able to help him make friends?These are questions I would have liked to ask when my son started two years ago because my eldest son never needed help I never really questioned the school they attended now I regret it.If you know situations that happen alot try and put these scenarios to the school so they can give a detailed explaation of how they will cope.Dont be afraid to ask it is your sons future and he needs to be happy.Good luck.

[Karen A]

Thank you. I'll look at the link.

 

It was the Portage Advisory Teacher at my son's review that told me a special school wouldn't look at him.

 

Dee

x

 

Hi.If you request a Statutary Assessment of SEN then under the code of practice nobody should pre-emp the assessment by making suggestions about the sort of provision.So the portage teacher is not acting within the COP if she has already decided before you have even requested a Statutary Assessment.

If you think that your son might need a Statement in order to acccess the level of suppport he might need in school I think it would be worth requesting a Statutary Assessment sooner rather than later.SEN does include all areas of learning and not just accademic ability.Ben [age 11 has AS] has a Statement and is funded for support in mainstream despite being very bright so it can be done.

It is difficult to advise regarding choice of school as all children with ASD are different.Some cope well in mainstream with appropriate support while others are much more able to manage and learn within Specialist provision.

 

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1068

All the information you might need is included on the links on this page....especially choosing a school and extra help in school.

Karen.

.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Karen A

[Sally44]

If your son has only just begun to talk then that would suggest an ASD and not Aspergers. I presume SALT is already involved. Have they diagnosed a speech disorder?

I agree to ask for a Statutory Assessment.

Also contact your local LEA SEN department and ask them about the SEN schools in your area. Find out what their criteria is. Our LEA also has mixed mainstream and SEN schools. My son (age 8) has an SEN place at a mainstream school that specialises in ASDs. I had to find that out. No-one told me about it.

Even if the SEN schools within your LEA are not suitable for your child, that can mean your LEA has to pay for a place at a school within the neighbouring LEA. And the LEA would have to pay transport to and from school.

The SEN Code of Practice talks about a suitable educational environment to meet the SEN of the child. So his needs have to be identified and it has to be specified in the statement how those needs will be met in school.

The NAS run local day seminars about the SEN process including Statementing. If you contact them they should be able to tell you if a local group is running a similar seminar in the near future.

Even if your child can attend mainstream school he is going to need substantial input from SALT, probably on a weekly basis, with a nominated TA practising out these skills daily in school. He may need teaching in small groups and supporting during playtime and dinnertime. All of this can be provided. But it is about getting the right people to carry out these supports and therapies. Sometimes you can get that provided into a mainstream school. But remember that the individual teachers will not have that experience of expertise. Or sometimes you get that in an SEN only or a mixed mainstream and SEN school.

But don't automatically believe anything you are told. Always check it against the SEN Code of Practice, the Parent Partnership, the NAS and IPSEA. Unfortunately parents reguarly find out they have been misinformed.

 

There was also an interesting Guidance for Speech and Language Therapists that was posted in the education section. That might be useful reading for you to see what the SALT department is supposed to be doing. Especially as your child has a speech difficulty (or disorder) associated with an ASD. It might be worth writing to them to ask them directly if their assessments have identified a Speech Disorder. Children with a Speech Disorder cannot be discharged from SALT for their entire school years. And SALT are responsible for social interaction skills and social language as well as just speech.

[Karen A]

I Especially as your child has a speech difficulty (or disorder) associated with an ASD. It might be worth writing to them to ask them directly if their assessments have identified a Speech Disorder. Children with a Speech Disorder cannot be discharged from SALT for their entire school years. And SALT are responsible for social interaction skills and social language as well as just speech.

 

Sally.I am sure I am repeating myself.However I feel the need to take issue with the inference that ASD/HFA is a speech disorder wheras AS is not.ASD is by definition a disorder of Social Communication.AS is as much a disorder of Social Communication as HFA.

Also I have still found no evidence anywehere to support the belief that children with a speech disorder cannot be discharged from SALT for their entire school years.

Karen.

 

 

[MrsD]

Thanks to everyone that replied. As a result of the info given to me I have now:

 

Requested a Statutory Assessment for my son - I am currently writing the Parental Evidence! On 12th November I will know if the assessment will go ahead.

 

I have obtained a copy of the SEN Toolkit and Code of Practice.

 

I have spoken to an outreach worker at a primary school (10 miles away) who runs a CAIRB for autistic children which is attached to a mainstream school. Apparently, to be a candidate for a placement, my son would have to have a statement and complex needs. ????DOES ANYONE HAVE EXPERIENCE OF A CAIRB????

 

Our designated mainstream school is a definite no no, we visited the other day. My son's behaviour was terrible while looking around, it's a very large, busy primary school and was too much for him. (This is going in my parental evidence with the telephone number of the SENCO who showed us around!)

 

My head is spinning with visiting schools, talking to Parent Partnership, NAS, Special Education Team and the Outreach Worker. I'm learning as I go along.

 

Yes, SALT has been involved for some time with my son (and my daughter who has had speech delay/clarity issues).

 

Some days I wonder about my son's diagnosis of 'moderate ASD' and think he will be fine in a mainstream school. On a bad day, I know he will not

 

Many thanks again.

[Karen A]

Thanks to everyone that replied. As a result of the info given to me I have now:

 

Requested a Statutory Assessment for my son - I am currently writing the Parental Evidence! On 12th November I will know if the assessment will go ahead.

 

I have obtained a copy of the SEN Toolkit and Code of Practice.

 

I have spoken to an outreach worker at a primary school (10 miles away) who runs a CAIRB for autistic children which is attached to a mainstream school. Apparently, to be a candidate for a placement, my son would have to have a statement and complex needs. ????DOES ANYONE HAVE EXPERIENCE OF A CAIRB????

 

Our designated mainstream school is a definite no no, we visited the other day. My son's behaviour was terrible while looking around, it's a very large, busy primary school and was too much for him. (This is going in my parental evidence with the telephone number of the SENCO who showed us around!)

 

My head is spinning with visiting schools, talking to Parent Partnership, NAS, Special Education Team and the Outreach Worker. I'm learning as I go along.

 

Yes, SALT has been involved for some time with my son (and my daughter who has had speech delay/clarity issues).

 

Some days I wonder about my son's diagnosis of 'moderate ASD' and think he will be fine in a mainstream school. On a bad day, I know he will not

 

Many thanks again.

 

Do you know what CAIRB is abbreviation for ?

I have not come across it.

 

[MrsD]

Do you know what CAIRB is abbreviation for ?

I have not come across it.

Communication and Interaction Resource Base

 

Here's a link (hope I'm allowed to post it) with more information on a CAIRB http://www.the-castle-primary.devon.sch.uk/pages/CAIRB.htm

Edited October 13, 2009 by MrsD

[Kazzen161]

I looked at several resource bases when looking for a school for T. I would imagine your child would need a Statement, and also that the places will go very quickly (there are only 8 places for the 7 years).

 

Different resource bases work in different ways (eg: in the social skills/SaLT/independence skills they provide; in how much time the child is expected to spend in the mainstream part; in how much TA support they get; in how much support they get at break times), so you need to ask lots of questions.

[Sally44]

Sally.I am sure I am repeating myself.However I feel the need to take issue with the inference that ASD/HFA is a speech disorder wheras AS is not.ASD is by definition a disorder of Social Communication.AS is as much a disorder of Social Communication as HFA.

Also I have still found no evidence anywehere to support the belief that children with a speech disorder cannot be discharged from SALT for their entire school years.

Karen.

 

Please stop bringing this up all the time. I am not making a difference. ASD includes Aspergers, eventhough Aspergers has a different criteria. And I am not saying ASD/HFS IS a speech disorder. However difficulties with speech and communication and the social interaction side of speech is PART of the diagnosis. And the level of speech difficulties are usually greater than a child with a diagnosis of Aspergers because the criteria for Aspergers states 'typical language development up to age 3', which those with an ASD/HFA/Autism/Kanners autism or whatever name is given to the diagnosis do not have. Language difficulties can be much greater than everyone suspects, especially when a SALT is not involved, or when a SALT has done insufficient assessments or does not have experience of both autism and speech disorders.

Typically there are big differences between expressive and receptive speech. So if a child can talk it is thought they also understand verbal instructions and can process auditory information. Not so. It cannot be assumed without assessments. Also the time it takes the child to access their verbal memories and put together speech may be so delayed that they cannot keep up 'in real time' in the classroom, but might be able to hold a one to one conversation. Again assumptions cannot be made without assessments.

And I think a SALT should be specifically asked to state whether the child has a speech/language/social communication 'delay' or a 'disorder'. If they state 'delay' then that means that they believe the child should catch up at some time in the future. It is impossible for a child to get a diagnosis of an ASD without speech/language/social communication difficulties because it is part of the criteria. So those difficulties have to be lifelong or you lose the diagnosis. Therefore I personally do not see how they can 'catch up' because that would mean they no longer fit the diagnostic criteria and therefore should lose that diagnosis if SALT feel they have no difficulties, and those difficulties have to be significant to even get a diagnosis in the first place. For example 'literal interpretation of language' is not a 'delay' and will remain for life.

I was told by the LEA SALT themselves that a speech/communication 'disorder' means it is for life. And that means lifelong speech and language and social interaction difficulties. Within our LEA SALT are not involved at all in secondary mainstream schools unless your child has a speech disorder. That is what my LEA SALT informed me. Have you spoken with your own LEA SALT department?

[Sally44]

Thanks to everyone that replied. As a result of the info given to me I have now:

 

Requested a Statutory Assessment for my son - I am currently writing the Parental Evidence! On 12th November I will know if the assessment will go ahead.

 

I have obtained a copy of the SEN Toolkit and Code of Practice.

 

I have spoken to an outreach worker at a primary school (10 miles away) who runs a CAIRB for autistic children which is attached to a mainstream school. Apparently, to be a candidate for a placement, my son would have to have a statement and complex needs. ????DOES ANYONE HAVE EXPERIENCE OF A CAIRB????

 

Our designated mainstream school is a definite no no, we visited the other day. My son's behaviour was terrible while looking around, it's a very large, busy primary school and was too much for him. (This is going in my parental evidence with the telephone number of the SENCO who showed us around!)

 

My head is spinning with visiting schools, talking to Parent Partnership, NAS, Special Education Team and the Outreach Worker. I'm learning as I go along.

 

Yes, SALT has been involved for some time with my son (and my daughter who has had speech delay/clarity issues).

 

Some days I wonder about my son's diagnosis of 'moderate ASD' and think he will be fine in a mainstream school. On a bad day, I know he will not

 

Many thanks again.

 

 

As you will no doubt find out a diagnosis in itself is not enough to warrant a Statement. However there are many difficulties that go under the 'umbrella' of an ASD and when you tease them out and how they affect your own child it can then become apparant that the child does have 'complex' needs.

 

For example my own son has a diagnosis of an ASD. He also has Sensory Integration Disorder. SID is very common with those with an ASD and some ASD behaviours are due to SID. But by listing the two separate disorders and how they affect the child it begins to build up a more complex picture of the child.

For example my own son does not feel extreme pain. What are the repercussions of that. Well firstly he does not recognise that he could injure himself. If he does injure himself he does not tell anyone because (a) although his expressive speech can be age appropriate, he has a speech disorder, uses echolalia, does not understand the need to communicate to others - therefore he would not tell anyone - and this example has happened on numerous occasions; and ( his sensory system does not register pain as we do. So staff do have to watch his behaviour and ask him if his leg is hurting him if he limps etc. At the other extreme slight touch can cause him to scream in pain, hit out, run away etc.

But writing about and explaining the above you begin to build up a much more 'complex' picture of your child.

So you do need to spell out each difficulty, the extent of it and give examples.

Let me give another example. My son likes to hide. He likes to play hide and seek. But he may hide without telling me we are playing that game. So he can just 'disappear' infront of my eyes. He also has no understanding of time and therefore can hide all day. He has no understanding of voice tone and therefore cannot tell if I am angry, distressed etc. He also withdraws into himself and becomes oblivious to the outside world and therefore I could be calling his name and he won't even hear me. And even if he can hear me he might just be thinking he is 'winning the game'. Again, what does that mean on a day to day basis. It means I always have to keep my eyes on him or hold his hand. I cannot leave windows or doors unlocked at home. I cannot take him somewhere and leave him to play and know he would come back! And I have examples of him getting out of the house and going into the road, or getting out and knocking on a friends house at 10.00pm - and I didn't even know he had left. Again this builds up a picture which is becoming more complex.

Then there are all the speech and language and social communication difficulties. So I can ask him to do something and he does not respond because he does not understand. Or I can say something that causes a meltdown because he wrongly interprets what I have said eg. 'don't you want to go swimming?' (which I have said to try to hurry him up), is processed as 'you don't go swimming', so he thinks I have changed the plans. I have to repeat instructions continually, and I have to sequence him otherwise he does things in the wrong order. He needs extra time to process auditory information and to gather his thoughts to speak. He needs to be taught social skills otherwise he does not engage with others. Give examples of how your child plays, or attempts to play. How other children react to them and how they react to being approached by other children.

Hope that gives you some ideas.

[JsMum]

Requested a Statutory Assessment for my son - I am currently writing the Parental Evidence! On 12th November I will know if the assessment will go ahead.

 

 

Dont forget you can Appeal if they turn down the SA so please do go all the way, I have a 12yr old and he has only just recieved a dx in ASD and he has a whole new communication conponant in his statement, I hugely recommend a private Speech and language Assessment also a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Inte...le_for_Children.

 

Write down in detail areas where a mainstream school will not be able to meet your sons special needs.

 

Look at the whole development. seperate them out, communication, language, speech, interaction, social context, behavioural, emotional, mental health and intelligence, my son is intelligent but can not apply this to every day tasks and activites.

 

My son is in a specialist school that caters for special needs children with an average to high Intelligence so they can not suggest just because he is bright he cant access a special school, there is specialist schools too, like schools that cater just for communication and language disorders ect....

 

Good luck with your reply but if they turn it down just appeal.

 

Go all the way.

 

JsMum

 

[Karen A]

Please stop bringing this up all the time. I am not making a difference. ASD includes Aspergers, eventhough Aspergers has a different criteria. And I am not saying ASD/HFS IS a speech disorder. However difficulties with speech and communication and the social interaction side of speech is PART of the diagnosis. And the level of speech difficulties are usually greater than a child with a diagnosis of Aspergers because the criteria for Aspergers states 'typical language development up to age 3', which those with an ASD/HFA/Autism/Kanners autism or whatever name is given to the diagnosis do not have. Language difficulties can be much greater than everyone suspects, especially when a SALT is not involved, or when a SALT has done insufficient assessments or does not have experience of both autism and speech disorders.

Typically there are big differences between expressive and receptive speech. So if a child can talk it is thought they also understand verbal instructions and can process auditory information. Not so. It cannot be assumed without assessments. Also the time it takes the child to access their verbal memories and put together speech may be so delayed that they cannot keep up 'in real time' in the classroom, but might be able to hold a one to one conversation. Again assumptions cannot be made without assessments.

And I think a SALT should be specifically asked to state whether the child has a speech/language/social communication 'delay' or a 'disorder'. If they state 'delay' then that means that they believe the child should catch up at some time in the future. It is impossible for a child to get a diagnosis of an ASD without speech/language/social communication difficulties because it is part of the criteria. So those difficulties have to be lifelong or you lose the diagnosis. Therefore I personally do not see how they can 'catch up' because that would mean they no longer fit the diagnostic criteria and therefore should lose that diagnosis if SALT feel they have no difficulties, and those difficulties have to be significant to even get a diagnosis in the first place. For example 'literal interpretation of language' is not a 'delay' and will remain for life.

I was told by the LEA SALT themselves that a speech/communication 'disorder' means it is for life. And that means lifelong speech and language and social interaction difficulties. Within our LEA SALT are not involved at all in secondary mainstream schools unless your child has a speech disorder. That is what my LEA SALT informed me. Have you spoken with your own LEA SALT department?

 

Just to start by saying that it is not always me that brings this up.I cannot be held responsible for others also raising the issue.

 

It is now widely recognised that the distiction between HFA and AS mainly comes down to termonology and the personal view of the doctor providing a diagnosis.AS is a speech disorder in exactly the same way that ASD is a speech disorder .I am saying that ASD is a speech disorder and it is widely recognised as such.ASD is a disorder rather than a delay.There is nothing within the diagnostic criteria to say that children with AS have less difficulty with speech it says purely that there was no significant delay in speech before the age of three.Incidently Ben did not have typical language development at all.It is now recognised that he has an over formal unusual manner of conversation which he does not adapt to informal situations.Ben is currently in trouble at school every day because this is seen by staff as being arogant and smart.Arguably Ben has as many difficulties as if he had been labled as having HFA and in some ways more because he has to cope in an environment where his needs are less obvious.I am sorry but I will continue to bring this issue up.I take issue with the idea that Ben somehow has less need for speech therapy or other intervention on the basis of him having appeared to use words early.At the end of the day the use of words is what the appropriate use of language refers to.

 

Ben also had much greater difficulties with language than the SALT suspected.She saw him weekly for 18months and never raised the issue of ASD because Ben appeared to have speech within norms except for dysfluency.The SALT was not an ASD specialist.The SALT never saw Ben interacting with his peers.Perhaps if she had we would have had a diagnosis of AS before last November.Ben was seen regarding dysfluency when he was three.

As an individual who has been active on the Asperger and ASD Forum for a few years and where increasing numbers of members have AS I will challenge missinformation about AS wherever it comes from.Professionals are often far to quick to assume that because people with AS appear to have normal speech they have fewer needs for support.

Our LA don't have a SALT department.SALT provision comes within the NHS.The desision to discharge a patient is based on a clinical decision regarding current need for treatment.If there is documentation on a Statement of SEN to say that there is a current need for SALT input then that is a different issue.The whole basis of current funding and provision within the NHS is in episodes of care.Even patients with conditions which are regarded as lifelong have episodes of care.There is no funding available to keep people on indefinitely on the basis of termonology.Anyway your argument appears to assume that because an individual has a disorder they will continue to have the same need for support.If an individual will continue to have a disorder because it is lifelong despite therapy surely that just demonstrates that the therapy is ineffective.

In my area there are no children who obtain ongoing SALT long term as far as I am aware whether they have ASD,HFA or any other diagnosis and whether in secondary or primary school.There are I think two specialists SALTS covering the ASD specialist school and all of the mainstream primary schools.They also conrtibute to diagnostic assessments.It would be completely impractical for those SALTS to provide ongoing SALT for the whole of each child's time in school on the basis of a label 'disorder'.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Karen A

[Sally44]

I would be more than happy if all children regardless of diagnosis of ASD/AS etc were all thoroughly assessed by a SALT because I do agree with you that those with AS, although they may 'appear' more capable from a language point of view they can tend to get into greater difficulties because those around them 'expect' their skills to be typical, when very often they are not. A child that has no speech is generally treated differently to a child that has AS and is verbal. But they may have very similar language processing difficulties, although it maybe to varying degrees.

It maybe that with your son the fact that he was verbal managed to enable him to get by for so many years. Now he is older and his language or social communication deficits are becoming more noticeable to you and he needs input to address this. School may not see that and just feel he is being naughty or disruptive.

Have you looked at the ongoing assessment process called SCERTS? This is something all professionals involved can use to see where the areas of strength and weakness are with language and social communication. There are also very specific Assessments or questionnaires that parents can fill out to show what social communication and language skills your child has. These cover all areas such as eye gaze, gestures, voice tone, keeping on topic, turn taking in conversation, literal interpretation of language, joining in, initiating conversation, repairing interaction breakdowns, etc etc. Lots can be done, it is just getting the responsible person to do it!

[Karen A]

I would be more than happy if all children regardless of diagnosis of ASD/AS etc were all thoroughly assessed by a SALT because I do agree with you that those with AS, although they may 'appear' more capable from a language point of view they can tend to get into greater difficulties because those around them 'expect' their skills to be typical, when very often they are not. A child that has no speech is generally treated differently to a child that has AS and is verbal. But they may have very similar language processing difficulties, although it maybe to varying degrees.

 

 

I agree completely.However even a thorough assessment by a SALT may not pick up Social Communication Difficulties if the SALT is not a specialist in ASD.As I said Ben had weekly SALT for 18 months but the SALT never spotted the possibility of ASD.

Karen.

 

[Sally44]

My son was under the SALT for 3 years and they did nothing in the area of social communication, until I put a request in writing for that area to be assessed as it was an area of difficulty he had to have to have got a diagnosis in the first place. I also requested a SALT with experience in ASDs. I got a phone call from the head of SALT within a week and the only SALT with experience in ASDs was assigned to my son (she was based some 40 miles away!). But we shouldn't have to be the ones overseeing everything. And I am sure it also happened because we were on our way to tribunal. Since the tribunal the LEA have recruited another SALT who was based at an ASD only school and she now works with my son.

[Karen A]

My son was under the SALT for 3 years and they did nothing in the area of social communication, until I put a request in writing for that area to be assessed as it was an area of difficulty he had to have to have got a diagnosis in the first place. I also requested a SALT with experience in ASDs. I got a phone call from the head of SALT within a week and the only SALT with experience in ASDs was assigned to my son (she was based some 40 miles away!). But we shouldn't have to be the ones overseeing everything. And I am sure it also happened because we were on our way to tribunal. Since the tribunal the LEA have recruited another SALT who was based at an ASD only school and she now works with my son.

 

I did not add that when the CAMHS consultant refered Ben to the ASD specialist SALT she knew within an hour of meeting Ben that he would meeet the criteria for an AS diagnosis.

 

[peaches]

Find a school who have had experience of children with autism, not just one but several. Make sure they have time for you when you visit. Dont just go on the OFSTED reports, but do read them. Is the head approachable and interested? Is the SENCO knowledgeable? Visit as many as you have to until you feel comfortable.