Fighting at dinner table

[annross]

Hi, has anyone had this problem. My hubby (not son's father) always seems to want to argue with my son. We had him assessed privately (the school were doing nothing) and he has been diagnosed with Asperger's. Thing is my hubby picks on him at the dinner table about things, like using his knife and fork properly and not putting too much ketchup on and not using too much salt (these are specific things ongoing everytime!) I suggested to him that he changes how he speaks to son as I really can't be bothered with the fights all the time. Hubby says son is fine when he is on his own with him. Is it me that causes son to be like this (I don't take sides at the table) or is it just that his condition makes it easier to be on a one to one with someone? I have been trying for 12 years to get son to use cutlery properly so it's not like I am not trying! Hubby cannot understand son's condition, he keeps looking for the negative. He just sees him as awkward, cheeky and lazy and even the diagnoses has not helped hubby!! I have been at my wits end over son who is due to go to high school and now I think I will scream if hubby does not change his attitude.

[justine1]

Hi

It reminds me alot of my step father,he was the same way with my brother(except he has not got AS) and he would complain about everything he did.My mum was constantly in the middle.My stepfather even said it was wrong for my brother to hug my mum,at the time he was 16,he thought it was inappropriate

He also said that my brother was "more mature and a better person" when my mum was not around.

 

It is hard because I can believe that in some ways,all children do seem to act "well behaved" when around others,usually because they know they cannot get away with any "bad behaviour", but at the same time it may be that the constant negative comments from his step dad have made his slightly scared/nervous of him and has prehaps changed his behaviour accordingly.

 

I know you say you cannot take sides but ultimatley if your husband is making your son feel bad and your son has low self esteem then I think you should stick by your son.

In my mums situation she soon realised that my step father had alienated us from her(even went as far as sending us both abroad) and so she divorced him three years ago after 10yrs of marriage.

 

I think try and see things with an open mind though,if he is only trying to help your son this is different to him constantly nagging/having a go/teasing him.

I tell my son with AS how to use cutlery but I do not put pressure just show him how.With things like salt and ketchup I put on the side of his plate and tell him once its finished he cant have more, that is all he is having because this is a health issue so is important I monitor it.

[baddad]

Hi -

 

I think you have to put this into context: Is your partner 'picking' on your son, or are the expectations he has of him reasonable?

If your son is putting too much salt or too much ketchup on his food then it is entirely reasonable to say 'don't put so much salt/ketchup on your food' - both are very 'bad' additions to any meal (salt is obvious, but have you seen the sugar content of most ketchups? Often cited these days as a significant contributor to tooth decay). Likewise, if he is using his knife and fork inappropriately, using fingers etc and is able to demonstrate better table manners that's entirely reasonable too. What's unreasonable, in those circumstances, is your son arguing back, and for you to be 'backing him up' instead of showing your son solidarity and agreement between both parents (regardless of whether he is your son's biological father your partner is fulfilling that role and should be supported by you in maintaining it). Your son's autism is irrelevent - it doesn't make him incapable or excuse him from 'reasonable' expectations, and going along with it because it is easier in the short term is going to make things much harder in the long term.

As far as the cutlery thing goes, it could be related to poor motor skills (but don't take that as a 'given' or offer it to him as an excuse), in which case cutting him some slack is a reasonable course of action. Having said that, gentle prompts and reminders and an expectation that he tries to use his cutlery appropriately for at least some of the meal are also reasonable, and entirely necessary, because if you don't have that expectation he can never develop better skills. You can't teach a child to ride a bike without sitting him on a bike. Likewise, you can't teach a child how to hold a knife and fork properly without getting him to hold a knife and fork properly...

One other part of your post stands out:

Hubby cannot understand son's condition, he keeps looking for the negative. He just sees him as awkward, cheeky and lazy and even the diagnoses has not helped hubby!

 

There is absolutely nothing about a diagnosis of autism that precludes a child from being awkward, cheeky and lazy - they are not part of the diagnostic criteria. Most children, especially if given the opportunity or excuse, will be awkward, cheeky and lazy if and when it suits them, and can be incredibly, thoughtful, considerate and industrious when it suits them too. That also applies to adults, but children are a lot more obvious about it usually and it's perfectly natural childhood behaviour. The difficulty parents of autistic children face is differentiating between what might be an issue of 'understanding' or development and what is, basically, perfectly normal 'exploitative' behaviour. Often I think that can be far more emotionally difficult for mums than dads, because mums take negative behaviours in their child personally - as some sort of negative judgement about their parenting or their child's 'nature' - whereas dad's see them as a 'challenge' (which is, BTW, sometimes an equally flawed way of looking at it if there's a bit of an 'alpha male' thing going on!). You've just got to be realistic about it, and see your kids as kids, rather than as unrealistic models of childhood perfection who are being compromised by 'autism'.

 

FWIW mealtimes in my home are regularly interspersed with reminders and prompts to my son not to eat with his mouth open, which he does find difficult, because dyspraxia/lax muscles make chewing movements uncomfortable. It is getting easier, though, which would not be the case if I didn't prompt him. I don't have to remind him about cutlery much at all anymore, but it has been an issue in the past. I bought a cheap cutlery set with big, ceramic handles which gave him a better 'grip' advantage but without differentiating him (because everybody used the same cutlery). He/we hardly ever have ketchup, so on the odd occassion we do have chippy chip-chips (as Harry Hill would say) he does go a bit over board, but as long as it's not ridiculous I can just ignore it as a one-off. I can state with absolute conviction that he does not suffer any sort of self-esteem issues regarding these things, or regarding me prompting him on them. He gets a huge amount of positive reinforcement and praise for other things, and for any/all efforts he puts into modifying any negatives, and this more than makes up for it.

 

Hope that's helpful

 

L&P

 

BD

[trekster]

Hi, has anyone had this problem. My hubby (not son's father) always seems to want to argue with my son. We had him assessed privately (the school were doing nothing) and he has been diagnosed with Asperger's. Thing is my hubby picks on him at the dinner table about things, like using his knife and fork properly and not putting too much ketchup on and not using too much salt (these are specific things ongoing everytime!) I suggested to him that he changes how he speaks to son as I really can't be bothered with the fights all the time. Hubby says son is fine when he is on his own with him. Is it me that causes son to be like this (I don't take sides at the table) or is it just that his condition makes it easier to be on a one to one with someone? I have been trying for 12 years to get son to use cutlery properly so it's not like I am not trying! Hubby cannot understand son's condition, he keeps looking for the negative. He just sees him as awkward, cheeky and lazy and even the diagnoses has not helped hubby!! I have been at my wits end over son who is due to go to high school and now I think I will scream if hubby does not change his attitude.

 

Autistics can be ok with one other person but have difficulties in groups. When was the diagnosis? There is a program run for parents called "HELP!" by the NAS. Would your hubby read up on aspergers? i feel uncomfortable around a dinner table because it physically hurts and eye contact is more common at a dinner table. i tend to eat with one hand and use a spoon for some meals. Personally i dont think there is a way to hold cutlery properly and your husband doesnt seem to understand that saying "dont use too much ketchup" can be difficult for your son. "too much" is an abstract concept also "dont" could be missed from your sons hearing so he might hear "use too much ketchup" instead!

[annross]

Hi, thank you all, I do think the issue with hubby is that he is looking to be the dominant male! It's not so much that he tells son off about cutlery/ketchup and salt (which we only ever have with chips) it's the way he does it! If my son is still having problems cutting up food at 12 then obviously it is a problem, is it not? but he sees it as son being lazy (and no, it's not that, honest...) When he puts too much ketchup on plate (because he finds it hard to regulate his hands) hubby sees that as defiance! I realize that my son can be cheeky, lazy etc but I can sense this, hubby can't. He is trying but he has no patience at all. I suppose I should be glad that he at least acknowledges is lack of patience!

[baddad]

Hi, thank you all, I do think the issue with hubby is that he is looking to be the dominant male!

 

But surely he is? In the same way that you are the dominant female, and would expect to be if you had a daughter. Alpha males and females are normal and necessary in any group dynamic - they are, effectively the 'role models' and it is their attention - positive and negative - that keeps the group functioning.That's not to say that your partner is going about it in the right way - i couldn't possibly know - but 'siding' with your son isn't going to help the situation in any way. Certainly expect your partner to be more tolerant and to think about how he says things and why, but the same goes for your son too. Maybe your son does find it hard to regulate his hands - mine certainly does because of his dyspraxia - but if he puts too much ketchup on his plate every time he eats then perhaps there's an element of defiance too which you are unwilling to acknowledge? Try him with apple sauce or something he doesn't like, with a firm expectation that he has to eat what he puts on his plate. If his control skills increase dramatically depending on his like or dislike for the 'dressing' then he's pulling a fast one and you, by berating your partner about it, are encouraging and rewarding him. If that sounds a bit too confrontational, then there's a much easier solution - when your son puts too much on his plate just scrape some off again. If your son complains that he doesn't want to lose what you are scraping off then again he is 'pulling a fast one' - because (if you think about it) he can actually only be complaining about the principle of having a 'reasonable' serving of ketchup with his meal...

I would agree that if your son consistently has problems cutting up food at twelve there is a problem, and that needs to be addressed in better ways than just 'having a go at him'(In my first post I mentioned buying a cutlery set with bigger handles - effectively the same thinking as 'large grip' pencils for writing - which would seem a good starting point). But correcting him, quietly and with consideration, is going to be part of that process. So the answer is compromise; to expect your partner to do the correcting quietly and considerately, but then to back him up in that and to have an expectation that your son take the constructive criticism you are both offering in an appropriate and reasonable manner. Let's face it, if hubby is in a situation where it's the two of you against him he's in a no-win situation, which is not going to be very nice for him and will, ultimately, make everybody's lives more miserable, because the continutity of the natural parent and child roles will be constantly undermined. Your son won't know whether he's coming or going as far as consistency goes, and there is tons of evidence to show that that will not be beneficial in terms of his behaviour.

 

HTH

 

L&P

 

BD

[keith1]

Aspergers boys don't fit into the power hierarchies that exist in all animal kingdoms. Your husband, and anyone of a nominally heigher rank, will feel a strong need to assert their authority. This will often lead to violence if they don't have the words. You can explain that his authority isn't being questioned but it's his animal instincts, not his intellect, that are in play. It's just nature. You have a better chance of explaining this to your son and helping him act submissive. In these situations it's up to the person with Aspergers to take control because only they can reason beyond their animal nature.

 

Basically, your husband will never stop feeling threatened until your son learns to manipulate him or leaves home.

[Suze]

Aspergers boys don't fit into the power hierarchies that exist in all animal kingdoms. Your husband, and anyone of a nominally heigher rank, will feel a strong need to assert their authority. This will often lead to violence if they don't have the words. You can explain that his authority isn't being questioned but it's his animal instincts, not his intellect, that are in play. It's just nature. You have a better chance of explaining this to your son and helping him act submissive. In these situations it's up to the person with Aspergers to take control because only they can reason beyond their animal nature.

 

Basically, your husband will never stop feeling threatened until your son learns to manipulate him or leaves home.

 

 

......................?????..........hhhmmmm..........not sure about that keith.

 

........my son would laugh at me if I told him that.

 

any how have to totally disagree...power hierarchies and violence?...what about reasoning talking and give and take,

 

[keith1]

......................?????..........hhhmmmm..........not sure about that keith.

 

........my son would laugh at me if I told him that.

 

any how have to totally disagree...power hierarchies and violence?...what about reasoning talking and give and take,

 

Is that what other monkeys do? Talking between human males is a way to establish hierarchy without using violence. Non-Aspergers people don't respond to reason, only to power. Dress it up in whatever comforting social lie you want.

 

This is a specific problem annross is having and deserves to be met honestly, head on. Yes, your husband needs to be the dominant male. Your son can't give him the non-verbal cues to allow this. Your husband will not be satisfied and NO AMOUNT of talking to him will work. Your son, on the other hand, can be talked to. Failing that, just keep them apart when there's a female (including yourself) around - at least until your son is big enough to defend himself.

Edited June 18, 2010 by keith1

[baddad]

Is that what other monkeys do? Talking between humans is a way to establish hierarchy without using violence. Non-Aspergers people don't respond to reason, only to power. Dress it up in whatever comforting social lie you want.

 

This is a specific problem annross is having and deserves to be met honestly, head on. Yes, your husband needs to be the dominant male. Your son can't give him the non-verbal cues to allow this. Your husband will not be satisfied and NO AMOUNT of talking to him will work. Your son, on the other hand, can be talked to. Failing that, just keep them apart when there's a female (including yourself) around - at least until your son is big enough to defend himself.

 

Sorry, Keith, I have no idea where you're getting your info from but to suggest that people who don't have Aspergers are incapable of responding to reason is totally wack! More often round here you'll find the suggestion being put forward (which I totally disagree with, BTW) that people with AS or autism are incapable of responding to 'reason', and that it is unreasonable of non-as people who can reason to expect them to! (now there's a 'comforting social lie' that really does need challenging!)

 

Anyway, all very much , unless your suggestion that the OP needs to isolate her son to keep him 'safe' is intended as practical advice(?) I really, really hope not.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Suze]

Is that what other monkeys do? Talking between human males is a way to establish hierarchy without using violence. Non-Aspergers people don't respond to reason, only to power. Dress it up in whatever comforting social lie you want.

 

This is a specific problem annross is having and deserves to be met honestly, head on. Yes, your husband needs to be the dominant male. Your son can't give him the non-verbal cues to allow this. Your husband will not be satisfied and NO AMOUNT of talking to him will work. Your son, on the other hand, can be talked to. Failing that, just keep them apart when there's a female (including yourself) around - at least until your son is big enough to defend himself.

Sorry must have missed something ...."Is that what other monkeys do?".......what does this quote mean can you explain your meaning or insinuation behind this.........and "non-aspergers people don,t respond to reason only power"....rubbish where do you get these wild judgements/facts? from.........I,m not trying to dress up anything into a comforting social lie........I,m a parent of a teenage aspergers boy who responds well to reasoning , give and take, and not some alpha male power struggle

as you have suggested will work for Annross,s son.

 

..........

Edited June 18, 2010 by call me jaded
fix code for quote

[JsMum]

 

Some Ideas I came up with to improve the Table Manners.

 

A visual chart to remind him that he is to use cutelry, not too much tomotoe cetchup, and other habits your hubby wants your son to achieve.

 

An Assessment from a OT to look at any alternative cutelry sets and maybe some hand/eyes exercises.

 

A reward chart when he achieves the tasks at dinner table.

 

An fun activity that your hubby and your son can do together to help build a positive relationship and increase the likely where your hubby can Praise your son.

 

Maybe some family counciling to look at the relationship of his step father if it is that you feel your hubby critises your son too much.

 

Id be tempted to video a tea time session and then play it back together and look at how things could be improved, sometimes it might be we need to reduce cammands/instructions or break them down, allow more time for the information to be processed ect....

 

JsMumx

 

 

 

 

 

[Tally]

If ketchup and salt are recurring issues, maybe you could serve them differently. If they were on the table in a bowl, he could put some on a spoon and you could help him make sure it's a sensible amount before it goes onto the plate. This way, you could also place a limited amount on the table in the first place, rather than the whole bottle.

[JsMum]

good tips there, thats why I buy jars of table scauces. not the glass bottles that are very difficult to get the scauce to pour out, can you not buy scauces that are reduced salt, and reduced sugar, like a weight watcher type scauce, it may even pour out of the bottle better.

 

 

JsMumx

 

 

Edited June 18, 2010 by JsMum

[winston]

Annross, it does read as though your son is 'playing' you here with your husband. children know how to work parents in order to get what they want, AS or NT they all develop methods to manipulate a situation to meet their needs.

the fact that your husband says he is fine when you are not there suggests to me that your son has figured out how to put you two against each other quite successfully, especially when coupled with the fact that you are putting the emphasis on your husband needing to change.

My own children seem to have a few major goals in life, and one is to divide the authoritive figures and undermine any control, thereby transferring it to them!

Sometimes I feel we (parents and children) have got into a scrum where the power is in the middle thrown about the strongest pushers will win.

This is when we (parents) have to make an effort to take a step back, voice our differences (away from the children) , attempt to understand the other persons views and so come to a compromise, then get back to being a united parenting force which gives the children consistency, security and makes our lives so much easier.

Looking at your son through your husbands eyes may be difficult, but this is what you are asking him to do for you, your husband may be feeling that his opinion doesnt count, that you feel you know best and he knows nothing, which will only alienate him, he will fear the children will not respect nor trust his views and opinions, and to be honest they probably wont if you are always arguing them.

talk talk talk and when you think youre done, talk some more, you are both intelligent adults and between you , with some give and take ,you can work out a strategy to make your son/husband relationship a better one.

Edited June 18, 2010 by winston

[winston]

If ketchup and salt are recurring issues, maybe you could serve them differently. If they were on the table in a bowl, he could put some on a spoon and you could help him make sure it's a sensible amount before it goes onto the plate. This way, you could also place a limited amount on the table in the first place, rather than the whole bottle.

 

great idea, I can see us doing this for ours when they are older, at the moment we sauce their dinners for them, all except the eldest who is very capable, too many accidents with sauce up the walls and floor...a little ramekin for each sauce type would be ideal.

 

 

[winston]

good tips there, thats why I buy jars of table scauces. not the glass bottles that are very difficult to get the scauce to pour out, can you not buy scauces that are reduced salt, and reduced sugar, like a weight watcher type scauce, it may even pour out of the bottle better.

 

 

JsMumx

 

we buy Heinz reduced salt and sugar tomato ketchup, they havent noticed the difference.

problem is its in a squeezy bottle and the valve is difficult to master, even for this adult.

[JsMum]

we buy Heinz reduced salt and sugar tomato ketchup, they havent noticed the difference.

problem is its in a squeezy bottle and the valve is difficult to master, even for this adult.

I know sometimes these squezzy bottles are hard to master, what about snapping off the nozel and then transferring into those saucebottles that are in chip chops/cafes, there usually colour coordinated, brown, red, yellow, I remember woolworths selling good sauce bottles/containters, Lakeland might have something for sauces.

 

JsMumx

 

found this http://www.lakeland.co.uk/squeeze-bottles/...e/product/12323

 

 

Edited June 18, 2010 by JsMum

[winston]

I know sometimes these squezzy bottles are hard to master, what about snapping off the nozel and then transferring into those saucebottles that are in chip chops/cafes, there usually colour coordinated, brown, red, yellow, I remember woolworths selling good sauce bottles/containters, Lakeland might have something for sauces.

 

JsMumx

 

found this http://www.lakeland.co.uk/squeeze-bottles/...e/product/12323

 

they are good, I like the idea. i found the retro shaped ones that your description brought to mind!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kitsch-Red-Tomato-...8532&sr=8-1

 

 

[keith1]

I'm just saying, IF the conflict is about being the alpha male then, out of the AS person and the non-AS person, the AS one has a far better chance of seeing the situation objectively and learning to act in a way that reduces the tension.

[annross]

Hi, thanks all. I will change the bottle to a dish or go back to putting sauce on plate for son. The salt issue only occurs occaisonally so that not too bad. The problem is more that my hubby starts on son even before he gets the sauce out but I feel if he would make an effort to say 'let me help you with that' rather than full blown 'don't put too much on' things might be better. I try to explain this to hubby but he just thinks I am getting at him and I don't take sides at the table in fact I try to ignore it all...... I will go back and try to get some help for both myself and hubby to understand a bit more about condition and take the sauce bottle away!

Thanks all for your advice.

[trekster]

......................?????..........hhhmmmm..........not sure about that keith.

 

........my son would laugh at me if I told him that.

 

any how have to totally disagree...power hierarchies and violence?...what about reasoning talking and give and take,

 

i dont think it's to do with control personally.

[trekster]

Annross, it does read as though your son is 'playing' you here with your husband. children know how to work parents in order to get what they want, AS or NT they all develop methods to manipulate a situation to meet their needs.

 

Thats not true of all AS kids, i happen to be one of them even as an adult.

the fact that your husband says he is fine when you are not there suggests to me that your son has figured out how to put you two against each other quite successfully, especially when coupled with the fact that you are putting the emphasis on your husband needing to change.

My own children seem to have a few major goals in life, and one is to divide the authoritative figures and undermine any control, thereby transferring it to them!

Sometimes I feel we (parents and children) have got into a scrum where the power is in the middle thrown about the strongest pushers will win.

This is when we (parents) have to make an effort to take a step back, voice our differences (away from the children) , attempt to understand the other persons views and so come to a compromise, then get back to being a united parenting force which gives the children consistency, security and makes our lives so much easier.

Looking at your son through your husbands eyes may be difficult, but this is what you are asking him to do for you, your husband may be feeling that his opinion doesnt count, that you feel you know best and he knows nothing, which will only alienate him, he will fear the children will not respect nor trust his views and opinions, and to be honest they probably wont if you are always arguing them.

talk talk talk and when you think youre done, talk some more, you are both intelligent adults and between you , with some give and take ,you can work out a strategy to make your son/husband relationship a better one.

 

How does this explain his problems with coordinating cutlery and sauce bottle pressure?