Emotions and ASD

[LS2242]

Hi All

 

Sorry if this question sounds a bit niave and silly, but I would rather ask than wondering. Is it a part of an ASD to NOT know different emotions.

The reason I ask is that CAMHs have been doing sessions with myself and our son all through the holidays. During these sessions it became crystal clear that other than Happy and Sad my son didnt know the expressions of any others, nor could he identify how he felt through his episodes of anger, excitement, frustration, upset etc.. Anyway since this was discovered the CP wrote to me (as I have asked for everything in writing) saying the he struggles to identify other peoples thoughts, feelings and motivations. It is also evident that he struggles to even identify his own emmotional states or even thinking about them. This making the world difficult to predict as he struggles to identify why people do and dont do things. He also will struggle to think about why he has done things in the past or how he might feel. He will be very dependant on those around him to help him manage this

 

I feel pretty bad because I never even realsied this was an area of difficulty. As his mum I should have picked this up many years ago. Is this a part of AS???

[justine1]

Hi

 

I cant really say whether its part of ASD or not but not being able to recognise facial expressions showing emotions is (according to most professionals) a sign of ASD.

 

Sam cannot tell when I am in pain,when I am sad or when I am angry with whatever he has done.Like most people I recall my mum would give me "the look" when I did something wrong so its clear I could recognise the emotion from her facial expression.

 

However,if I said I am not happy or something is hurting me,he is more likely to respond,though not always sympathetic.He does recognise his own feelings/emotions, he will often say "X made me very sad" and his face will express this.In fact the ed psych said he is very emotional, but has no emotional problems, the fact he can express his feelings is a good thing and its usually with just cause.

[Tally]

I think what you're describing are several different things, all of which are commonly associated with AS.

 

Difficulty recognising facial expressions and other forms of non-verbal communication are very common difficulties in AS.

 

Difficulty understanding what another person may be feeling is also common in AS.

 

Difficulty understanding and verbalising your own feelings is yet another difficulty that is common in AS.

 

It can all combine to make the world pretty confusing and frustrating at times. Given your son may well have difficulty explaining his feelings to you, it's understandable you didn't realise!

[KarenT]

LS2242 - my ds is very similar but unfortunately no professionals have ever recognised it, which I find difficult to understand. He has never been able to say "I'm upset", "I'm angry", "I'm disappointed" etc and cannot articulate any meaningful expression about how he is feeling at all. However, his emotions are very powerful and he quickly gets frustrated at not being able to express himself appropriately, so the only emotion he can really show is anger, though he's making good progress at controlling it lately. I believe he's quite afraid of his feelings and that's part of the reason why he doesn't actually want to face them and understand them.

 

We recently started working on a Feelings Vocabulary to label emotions with words and pictures and give examples of how they apply. It's hard work because there's a lot he simply doesn't understand and I often have to put words into his mouth. I expect this is one of those things he has to be taught specifically because the instinctive understanding isn't there, but he is making progress. Interestingly, he's learning how to recognising feelings in other people better than he can see them in himself - we watch tv (Holby City is a favourite ) and try to work out what the characters are thinking, what they might do next, how they are feeling etc. The pause button comes in very handy, though it can take hours to watch a single episode!

 

OTOH my ds has always been able to judge reasonably well what other people's facial expressions mean, and has a wide range of appropriate ones himself. I guess this is typical 'spiky profile' stuff where some things come fairly easily but others, even very similar, are incredibly difficult.

 

The biggest problem for us now is in academic work. J has enormous difficulty in Literacy with writing anything with an emotional slant, even his own opinions. There's also an element of 'getting it right' with this type of work - Maths, Science and History are straightforward enough because there's a right and wrong answer but that's less obvious with expressing opinion, motivation etc. I've no idea where to turn with that as no professional we've ever been involved with will recognise this as a genuine problem.

 

Karen

x

[charlotte]

hi

 

i am 30 and have AS and have worked with children on the spectrum for over ten years now (though i will readily admit i am always learning). i certainly experience what you are saying about reading others emotions as i find it difficult unless the emotion is at one end of the scale or the other (happy or sad) and clearly expressed laughing big smile or crying. outside this i can be aware with those i know well that something is not right but unable to place in what way. I became aware only a few months ago that eyes show expression (though i can not read this) and this was through a discussion on work placement with a speech and language therapist (which i am training to be).

 

you should not feel bad ASD is a very complex thing and learning goes on happening. my parents are still very much learning about me

 

Hi All

 

Sorry if this question sounds a bit niave and silly, but I would rather ask than wondering. Is it a part of an ASD to NOT know different emotions.

The reason I ask is that CAMHs have been doing sessions with myself and our son all through the holidays. During these sessions it became crystal clear that other than Happy and Sad my son didnt know the expressions of any others, nor could he identify how he felt through his episodes of anger, excitement, frustration, upset etc.. Anyway since this was discovered the CP wrote to me (as I have asked for everything in writing) saying the he struggles to identify other peoples thoughts, feelings and motivations. It is also evident that he struggles to even identify his own emmotional states or even thinking about them. This making the world difficult to predict as he struggles to identify why people do and dont do things. He also will struggle to think about why he has done things in the past or how he might feel. He will be very dependant on those around him to help him manage this

 

I feel pretty bad because I never even realsied this was an area of difficulty. As his mum I should have picked this up many years ago. Is this a part of AS???

[Minime72]

I'm constantly asking my OH what's wrong and he always replies nothing why do you think something is wrong? Sometimes he just wants to unwind after work then I'm constantly badgering what's wrong thinking he's in a mood, I've sone something to upset him etc etc because I'm reading his weary expression as anger.

[baddad]

Hi Ls2242 -

Expressed in the way the CP has expressed it this does sound extremely scary, and certainly if you've only just become aware of this 'facet' of autism then it would be natural to be concerned. Having said that, though, the reality isn't quite so all-encompassing as it may at first sound, and while all autistic people have some degree of compromised understanding in these areas the degree varys enormously depending both on the individual and on the practical skills they are taught/can learn to help compensate.

The key, often, is in the individual developing the understanding that their skills in these areas are compromised, because then they can develop practical strategies to help. If you take something like eye contact, many people with autism, when taught the social 'norms', can compensate by making indirect eye contact (looking at the tip of the nose or the chin) or even more directly by just explaining to people 'Oh, I sometimes have difficulty making eyes contact' (whether they choose to directly ascribe this to autism or just present it as a personal thing). Many adults late dx'd with autism developed such strategies for themselves, and it's now suggested that some people with autism don't have any difficulty in making eye contact at all, so, as i say, traits like these needn't be all encompassing.

 

There's an old joke about two psychiatrists meeting in a hallway: the first says 'hello' and the other one thinks 'hmmmm... I wonder what he meant by that?' Many autistic people seem to think like that - compensating for their inherent inability to 'read' others by a process of questioning and evaluation. They can often have great insight into the motivations of others purely and simply because they do evaluate everything rather than assuming 'wysiwyg' (what you see is what you get), because they are aware that what they see may not be the whole story. Unfortunately, this doesn't always extend to their own most personal interactions, because they make judgements about them based on emotional responses rather than the more reliable 'logical' (at the risk of sounding Mr Spockish) ones! A recent thread on the forum concerned body language/arm movements etc, and while for many people on the spectrum these things will always present difficulties both in demonstration and interpretation these are skills that can be learnt and, if necessary, 'faked' (and by faked, I mean in a potentially good/helpful way - not in the way that a confidence trickster might use them!).

 

As far as personal emotions go, the idea that autistic people are 'unemotional' is a bit of a myth. If you look through forum posts you'll see all sorts of emotions being expressed - anger, frustration, disappointment, irritability, impatience etc etc. Quite often the problem lies in expectation - these perfectly normal emotions getting labelled as 'autistic' emotions, with a lowering of expectation along with accommodation as a consequence. The 'balancing' emotions (consideration, patience, acceptance, love...) may be more difficult to learn (exactly as they are for NT children - which is why the terrible twos and turbulent threes etc kick in before 'reason' and 'negotiation'), but they are certainly not beyond the vast majority of autistic or AS people, even if sometimes it suits them (or others) to pretend otherwise.

 

So don't beat yourself up for 'missing' something in your son. Chances are that he and you have found ways and means of compensating without even realising, and what others might see doesn't even apply to your relationship. Finally, try not to worry too much about the 'long term' - it pobably is nowhere near as bleak as this CP's report suggests. Like all disabilities there are ways and means of circumnavigating the 'worst' effects and like all disabled people your son will learn/be taught some skills to do so. That's not to minimise the very real problems he might face, just to put them into context.

 

Hope that's helpful

 

L&P

 

BD

[coolblue]

3% of the UK population is estimated to have problems with face-recognition. It is quite likely that a similar proportion have difficulty 'reading' facial expressions - though not necessarily the same 3%. It is also likely that some people do not experience some emotions, or that they cannot identify certain emotions in other people. Young children have to learn to read facial expressions, and do so at differing rates; some of those diagnosed with ASD take longer than most people to do this.

 

Facial information, and emotional information are dealt with by different parts of the brain, but of course in a typically developing person there are strong connections between the two areas.

 

Difficulties experiencing, recognising and expressing emotion, reading facial expressions and body language are not uncommon in people diagnosed with ASD, but it's the problem with the facial expressions or the emotions that produces the characteristics we call 'autism', not the other way round.

 

In other words, some people with a slight problem with faces/emotions might be seen as a bit socially awkward but not qualify for a diagnosis of ASD; other people might have considerably more difficulty and this produces a 'significant' impairment in social interaction. Other people might have a significant impairment with social interaction (and therefore a diagnosis of ASD) for an entirely different reasons and have no problem with faces/emotions.

 

So, in short, emotional recognition is something that's learned, that people learn at different speeds and with differing degrees of success, and can be part of someone's autism.

 

cb

[LS2242]

Firstly, thanks to you all of for your posts. I have really appreciated the insight.

 

This developement has upset me, I cant deny that, but I am not going to beat myself up over it. On a more positive, after giving this some thought and reading and reflecting on your posts, it has given me so much more determination to keep fighting for the help he needs. His difficulties are much deeper than I thought and I am confident this WILL and DOES effect his lack of social interaction at school with children his own age. Also with his family it sorts of put into perspective, why he responds to certain situations the way that he does. Taking it on this basis, gives me more reassurance that I do have a case to pursue for a statement in school.

We have as BD suggests, 'found ways and means of compensating without even realising, and what others might see doesn't even apply to your relationship' but having this more knowledge sort of helps me to understand why he does certain things. This will prove beneficial if I can work out a way of giving him help to understand these areas. Just have to think of a good statergy and a way of doing this, without him losing confidence. My son does not realise he thinks differently to others. I have tried many times to teach him things and how to respond to certain situations, but I have on the whole not been very successful as he thinks he is right and will not listen to reason.

Going off subject a little but possibly relevant. The other day he was out with grandparents and to cut a long story short one minute he was there next he was gone and he was lost. They where near a train station, so they where alerted first. Anyway eventually he was found in a very distressed state which was understandable. When quizzing him over this experience he said once he knew he was lost, he looked for a man in uniform and was shouting for his grandma but he couldn't see a man or grandma. from what I understand there where many people around but no one offered any help. Anyway I said he must have been very scared. and his response was 'shrug of shoulders and I dont know.' So I guess it is not all bleak, yes he did not realise he was scared but he did the right thing by looking for an official person in a uniform. This sort of comforts me that although he didnt recognise the emmotional state he was in, he was fully aware of the 'procedure' to follow.

 

Ok so now I suppose I am asking for any advice on how I help him. What can I do? Do the school have a duty within his education to provide help in this area? What can the school do? It would have to be little steps first I take it, put the foundations in and then build on them

I not too concerned long term, as now I know, I can get the help to teach him! Well in theory anyway!

 

Please anyone who has any suggestions, I would greatly appreciate them.

[LS2242]

Sorry i have just re read my post back to myself again and realise how it is all over the place. Hope you rget the jist of it anyway.

[Karen A]

Firstly, thanks to you all of for your posts. I have really appreciated the insight.

 

This developement has upset me, I cant deny that, but I am not going to beat myself up over it. On a more positive, after giving this some thought and reading and reflecting on your posts, it has given me so much more determination to keep fighting for the help he needs. His difficulties are much deeper than I thought and I am confident this WILL and DOES effect his lack of social interaction at school with children his own age. Also with his family it sorts of put into perspective, why he responds to certain situations the way that he does. Taking it on this basis, gives me more reassurance that I do have a case to pursue for a statement in school.

We have as BD suggests, 'found ways and means of compensating without even realising, and what others might see doesn't even apply to your relationship' but having this more knowledge sort of helps me to understand why he does certain things. This will prove beneficial if I can work out a way of giving him help to understand these areas. Just have to think of a good statergy and a way of doing this, without him losing confidence. My son does not realise he thinks differently to others. I have tried many times to teach him things and how to respond to certain situations, but I have on the whole not been very successful as he thinks he is right and will not listen to reason.

Going off subject a little but possibly relevant. The other day he was out with grandparents and to cut a long story short one minute he was there next he was gone and he was lost. They where near a train station, so they where alerted first. Anyway eventually he was found in a very distressed state which was understandable. When quizzing him over this experience he said once he knew he was lost, he looked for a man in uniform and was shouting for his grandma but he couldn't see a man or grandma. from what I understand there where many people around but no one offered any help. Anyway I said he must have been very scared. and his response was 'shrug of shoulders and I dont know.' So I guess it is not all bleak, yes he did not realise he was scared but he did the right thing by looking for an official person in a uniform. This sort of comforts me that although he didnt recognise the emmotional state he was in, he was fully aware of the 'procedure' to follow.

 

 

We have found with Ben that he is very good at following a procedure once he understands what the procedure is.

He is very happy with a list of steps to take or a clear plan.

He does not need to worry about the emotions round certain things he just knows what the routine is.

This has a big advantage that once he knows the routine I can feel confident he will follow it.

So for example when I pick him up from school I have a road where I park.It is in a place where Ben can avoid the crowds and does not have to cross roads.

So he knows exactly what to do when he comes out of school.

Over the course of the year last year we added another stage so that if for some reason I am late Ben knows to go to the school reception until I come.

 

We have just found out that he is moving sites after the holiday due to building work,so we will need to work out a new plan as the current one only applied for the previous site.Ben would not be able to transfer the plan without help.

 

However it does allow Ben to be come more independent than if I stood outside the gate each day.

 

I did a short course on preparing for the school holidays with a Specialist SALT.

She suggested using visual supports such as pictures or a timetable or list to support verbal information.

 

Perhaps in your case you could develop a plan with your son for ''If I get lost'' .

Develop a list which states clearly what to do and perhaps even have pictures.

Then practice it in small steps in a place where it is easy to monitor how things are going and where you know your son will be safe.

Break it down into small stages if need be.

Identify specific people or places your son could go to if he has a problem and practice what he would say.

 

Ben had some support from some LA travel trainers last year.

Unfortunately he has not been able to put much of it into practice as our elder NT son who is 14 and six foot has been the victim of near muggings four times since so we don't want to put Ben at certain risk.

However the ideas above are some of the things the travel trainers used.

 

What support if any has your son had in school up to now ?

Does he have an IEP ?

Does an ASD outreach teacher or TA provide any support or advice and what has been tried already if anything ?

 

Sorry to ask lots of questions but the answers make a difference as to what to suggest ?

Does your son have a diagnosis of anything at this stage ?

Who is the CP ? sorry I do not know the abbreviation and it helps to know which professional it is ?

 

 

Getting a bit of support and input can make a huge difference.

I do not know how old your son is but Ben was not identified as having difficulties until he was seven.

At that stage he was very unhappy at school and was finding many things difficult.

He is 12 now and doing really well at secondary school.

He still finds some areas of life at home and school more difficult than his peers.

However he is doing better than we could ever have hoped.

When first faced with lots of information from professionals all of it in technical jargon it can feel very daunting.

However it is fine not to try to do everything at once.

 

One personal hint.

If the CP is a CAMHS professional perhaps the letter being difficult to understand is partly to do with it being in writing by a professional who is more used to talking to parents and writing to other professionals.We have had some excellent support from CAMHS over the years.However I can think of several professionals who are very good at talking with parents but who would be inclined to put lots of jargon in a formal letter that could sound pretty daunting.

My husband and myself have often needed an interpreter and I was an NHS professional.

For example ''Emotional States'' is very much Psychotherapy jargon for something like ''how you feel''.

 

Karen.

Edited September 4, 2010 by Karen A

[Karen A]

Sorry i have just re read my post back to myself again and realise how it is all over the place. Hope you rget the jist of it anyway.

 

I don't think it was all over the place and hope I got the jist pretty well. <'> <'>