Hiring a TA for one Child ??

[Blydenstein]

Hello everyone

 

I hope you don't mind me asking a Question before having introduced myself properly, but if I don't ask it now, I know it will disappear, and I'll forget.

 

When I went to the local Mainstream that my local LEA want to send my Son to, the SENCo told me that were they to take him on, they would have to hire a new member of staff just for my Boy, and it would probably cost something like £14,000 PA.

Under the SEN code of practice, does this constitute an "Efficient use of resources" ? if you get my drift, as they don't really "Quantify" what an "Efficient use of resources" is.

 

I think I can probably get this particular SENCo to put this on paper, as he's kinda on our side, but I need to know if I'm talking through the top of my head before I do.

 

 

Many Thanks

 

P

[KezT]

It's fairly standard for many conditions for the child to have their "own" TA. I expect it must be an efficiant use of resources from the number of job adverts I see;)

[Suze]

Does he have a statement?

[Sally44]

If the child has a need it has to be identified and then that need has to be met.

 

The only legally binding SEN document is a Statement. If a professional [including school], say their opinion that he needs a full time 1:1, then that is what his Statement should say and that is what he should get.

 

The LA would have to find another professional to state that he does not need a full time 1:1 TA.

 

If you had it in writing, and you went to an Educational Tribunal, then the Panel would look at both reports and make a decision on what his needs were. It would be helpful if the person that recommends the provision is at the Tribunal.

 

However, I am wondering how or whether a child needing a full time 1:1 TA would cope in a mainstream school. Do you think they would cope? What kind of things would they need the full time TA for?

 

Specialist independent school places cost around £50,000pa, so when you look at it like that, an LA paying £14,000 to keep a child in a mainstream school is a better use of their resources than spending £50,000. BUT what the parent needs to consider is whether that TA cost of £14,000 is going to meet all the child's needs, or do they also need speech therapy, a social communication/emotional literacy programme, an OT sensory integration, sensory diet or life skills programme etc.

 

Education is about preparing a child to be as independent and responsible an adult as they can be. So, for some children, spending £50,000+ a year is actually a better investment because they maybe much more independent as an adult and require much less support [which would cost significantly more for a dependent adult]. But unfortunately, the LA is just looking at the immediate educational picture, and not the long term view [although the long term goal can be argued at an Educational Tribunal].

 

It would be brilliant if you could get this SENCO to put that in writing. But also what do other reports about your child say? Is everyone saying that mainstream is going to work?

Edited November 11, 2011 by Sally44

[KezT]

My son has a full time TA (although it doesn't say that in his Statement). I'm still sure that mainstream is the right place for him.

 

I applied for several jobs as a full time TA for children wit varioius conditions/disabilities - some involved personal care, or mobilising the child etc. They would not be able to access any eduction without a FT carer, but there was little doubt that with one they could and should be in mainstream placements......

 

Obviously we know nothing about the OPs position, but needing FT 1:1 des not mean anyone eed necessaily be loking at anyting other than mainstream.

Edited November 11, 2011 by KezT

[chris54]

It is not at all unusual for a school to employ a new member of staff when a new child with SENs starts. When my own son was at primary school they employed a TA for 10 hours a week to work with him. When he moved up to secondary school her job was gone. (They did reemploy her for a new child starting.)

 

If we look at cost in isolation. It is quite possible for the cost of transporting a child to a special school to work out more than the cost of employing a full time TA at their local mainstream school.

 

I our ares they, the council are moving away from centralised SEN provision to local, (SEN provision in mainstream schools) in a large part to save on the cost of school transport.

[Kazzen161]

£14K sounds a bit on the high side, but "efficient use of resources" basically means that although the LA have to meet the requirements of the child as per their statement, they need to do so in the cheapest way possible. So if a mainstream + TA costs £X amount and a special school costs £more than X, then they have to go for the former. It is not quite so straightforward as there are transport/escort, therapy, etc costs to take into consideration too.

[Sally44]

I totally agree that having a full time TA does not necessarily mean a child is not capable of mainstream. But I am looking at it without any specific information from the OP and considering this forum is for ASD, then IF the school are saying that the child needs a full time TA that means classroom, playground/dinnertimes etc. That suggests that it is immediately obvious to the school that this child would not cope without a full time TA, and that being the case I am just raising the question as to whether the parent feels a mainstream school could provide for all the needs their child has.

 

A full time TA is better than nothing. But a TA may not be a suitably qualified person for the type of difficulties the child has and may end up 'minding' the child, rather than actually teaching specific skills. And this can make a child dependent on the adult, rather than build skills that allow the child to be independent. The question has to be asked "why is a full time TA needed", and that would produce a list of needs, which should also be being met by the relevent professional eg. "he needs a full time TA because he has no social communication or play skills". A TA is not going to 'teach' those skills. You would also need the child to have therapy from the appropriate professional, who would put together a programme in school, which the TA may deliver and support during the whole day. So, the school suggesting a full time TA, in my mind, means that there should also be a significant amount of therapy being delivered as well.

 

I also think that because the full time TA option is much cheaper than a specific ASD placement, that any LA is likely to offer this level of support rather than a more expensive placement and any parent should be aware of that because local authorities do not even tell parents that there are other placement options and a parent may think the only option for their child is special school for children with moderate learning difficulties, or mainstream with a full time TA.

[Blydenstein]

Hi again

 

Many thanks for the replies everyone, I'm going to have to try to make this short, as I'm sitting here attempting to write out all the reasons that we believe 'R' needs Special school, as we have an Emergency Statement review Monday.

 

Anyway, R got his Statement at 9 yrs old after trying since he was 4, He's PDD-NOS on his Diagnosis, So we'd had all the "Bad Parents" Social Services lark from the LEA, SS, et al, but the school felt he needed a High Tariff Statement and he has one for 30 Hrs a week, OK, so at his Yr5 review, it was agreed by everyone present that he would go to Special, come secondary school, in Yr 6 he had a TA basically sitting next to him for most of the year, and had a Male teacher, that he seemed to respond to, but was basically having his life run for him, I.E, Do This, Do That, Write This down Etc. but it was decided that when his case went to panel that year that he could go to mainstream, I can't remember why we didn't appeal it then, but despite the School that he was to attend, having said twice in very strong wording that they could not meet his needs and that it would be detrimental to the other children, but they were basically forced into taking him.

 

Anyway, we sent him off with the rest of the other kids in his year to the same school, ( Very few went anywhere else ) but it quickly became clear that it wasn't going to work, despite the school trying quite hard, R started to refuse to go after about 6 weeks, becoming violent and extremely distressed if we tried to get him to go, as a 46 yr old man, it's still not very funny having a 12 yr old hurling toy cars, glasses etc at you just to avoid school.

The LEA's answer to this was to have Education Welfare get on our case and start to threaten court action, this was late 2009, this all carried on for a while, until in Feb 2010, and as we had been thinking about it for a while, I pulled him out of school to Home Ed, as R wasn't going to school anyway, and the EWO was sending copy letters to the court.......Big Mistake, within 2 months we realised that it wasn't going to work for various reasons, so in the April 2010 we started to contact the LEA with a view to getting him back into school, but preferably the right one.......They Ignored us for 14 Months despite having sent a lot of emails and some letters, and in this time R was not doing an awful lot.

 

OK, so jump to June this year, and we finally get to the LEA starting to do something, Via my MP, who was fighting our corner........so we had a meeting with the caseworker and the EP, then the EP visited on Aug 1st and did a report on R , luckily it goes someway to supporting our case for Special.......as an aside, I had a Triple Heart Bypass on August 13th, and on the day I came out of hospital I was informed by the MP's Secretary that R's panel was the next day....No would you like to submit further evidence, or even tell us they were doing the panel......So the panel decides Mainstream, and specify the only other Secondary in the area, so I go to said Secondary, to be told by the SENCo/ Asst Head with 37 Yrs of SEN experience, that they could not take R either, having looked at reports, and he would tell the LEA as much, the LEA have come back and said that this school will be suitable if R has "Access" to the schools "Nurture" group, which I have informed them does not exist, as said SENCo told me it's only for Yr 7's and 8's, and R is Yr 9.

 

OK, so that's a potted history of the story so far ( Tune in for the next week's exciting Episode of "Special Needs", a story of Heartbreak and Despair in the Classroom, and Mismanagement and Greed by those in Charge )

 

Apologies, couldn't resist that, but I'm just trying to find all angles that I can to stop them sending R back to his worst nightmare, because he is truly terrified of "Going Back To A School Like That", and I'm sick and tired of clearing up the fallout from their mistakes, just because they don't want to open their purse, that's not my concern My Son is, and getting the best for him.

Obviously, I can't list everything that went wrong there but it was enough to put him off for life, and it seems the EP has picked up on this and a lot of other of R's difficulties.

 

Anyway, I'd better get on, and again, Many Thanks for the responses.

 

Best Regards

 

P

[Grace]

Hi, Sorry to hear your very sad tale.

 

You have not got a lot of time, so here's a few things:

 

For when you have more time, download a copy of the SEN Code of Practice and basically read it from cover to cover - you will realise the LA have not behaved correctly.

 

For now, you can quote:

8:62 Where an LEA proposes to issue a statement or amend part 4 of an existing statement

they must name the maintained school – mainstream or special – that is preferred by the

parents, providing that:

the school is suitable for the child’s age, ability and aptitude and the special

educational needs set out in part 2 of the statement

the child’s attendance is not incompatible with the efficient education of other children

in the school, and

the placement is an efficient use of the LEA’s resources.

 

 

So, you have the right to ask for a special school and even if that school is technically 'full' it would have to be way over number for it to meet the criteria for 'incompatible with the efficient education of other children in the school'

 

You need to go to that meeting and show how your child's needs can be met at a special school and how they can not be met at the mainstream school. In terms of the mainstream school, particularly bring out everything that would harm the education of the other children e.g. if your child, might be disruptive, physically attack the other children (because he is under pressure, because his needs are not being met)etc.

 

Now, you need to buy yourself some time, so you are better prepared - you could do with some advice re what should be in the statement and IPSEA, NAS, and SOS!SEN are all charities that can help you - IPSEA are great if you can get through on the phone or else NAS are good with statement advice.

 

For tomorrow, if put on the spot and they are saying something you do not agree with, simply say that you do not agree, that you will be seeking advice and getting back to them.

 

If it is an emergency Annual Review, you have the right to ask for the statement to be amended and even if it is an interim review (they are very similar, but are different legally)where you don't have the right to ask for amendments, if the LA change even one word of the statement, you then have the legal right to change any part of 2,3 and 4. You can then ensure, the statement clearly spells out that your son needs a special school. You don't have to worry about this tomorrow; you can write to the LA after the meeting to say what amendments you want.

 

Just be very firm tomorrow that mainstream can not meet his needs and they are failing to educate your child. I don't think it would harm to hint you are prepared to take legal action, including possible court action (judicial review as opposed to tribunal). I say this, as it seems to me that they have failed in their duty to provide a suitable education and you might be able to take them to court: 'I can't remember why we didn't appeal it then, but despite the School that he was to attend, having said twice in very strong wording that they could not meet his needs and that it would be detrimental to the other children, but they were basically forced into taking him.'

Judicial Review is a very good option if you have a case, because you can get legal aid in your son's name and it costs the LA so much money that they are suddenly more likely to be reasonable.

 

Very best of luck for tomorrow!

 

Grace

Edited November 13, 2011 by Grace

[Sally44]

You are having an emergency review of the Statement?

 

You need to stick to your guns about a special school, and you need to appeal the outcome of the emergency review [especially as the LA keep saying mainstream, lets assume they say mainstream again.

 

Do you have anything in writing from the mainstream schools, or any professional, saying that they cannot meet his needs?

 

If you don't have anything from the last school, then ask his current school to put in writing what they have said. Or get someone to go to the emergency review with you and ask them to minute the meeting. Or take two tape recorders and record the meeting and keep one copy and give the other to the LA. Because things might be said at the meeting that are useful to your case.

 

Go and visit special schools within your LA. Ask the LA for their list of special, approved and independent secondary schools for children with an ASD.

 

Your Local Authority WILL already be paying some independent school fees for some children that are not coping mainstream. They will know that this is possible. But they are not going to tell you because it does cost them money.

 

Do you have up to date speech therapist reports? And you have a recent educational psychology report.

 

You appeal the decision of LA after the emergency review and you to go tribunal. That will take about 6 months before the hearing date.

 

In the meantime you go to your GP and you tell them that your son is not coping in school due to anxiety and his needs not being met in school. You ask your GP to refer you to either/and Clinical Psychology or CAHMS [and specifically ask for a professional that has experience of working with children on the autistic spectrum]. They are the people who can write a report/letter saying that the child is not coping in school and if they write that letter the EWO can do nothing.

 

You need to get some help with going to a tribunal and i'll PM you about that.

 

What the LA is telling you is not what special educational needs law says. If you go to a Tribunal you have nothing to use, and you would probably win the kind of placement that could meet his needs. Unfortunately your situation is not isolated. Some children cannot cope mainstream.

 

We have just been to tribunal ourselves after our son was out of school since January 2011. We were threatened with the EWO, but Clinical Psychology and CAHMS backed up our case and said that he had "an astounding number of educational issues" "he is overloaded and overwhelmed on a daily basis" "he is the most complex boy we have ever come across" "he needs a sensory integration programme" "school is not presently helpful, and we have advised the parents to stop forcing him into school" "this boy has serious self harm behaviours". etc.

 

We have won a place at an independent ASD specific school which is part of the SENAD group. In additional to the placement, we also won provision of a specialist dyslexia teacher to go into his independent school 3 times a week to meet his specific learning difficulties needs.

 

We have been trying to get the right placement for our son since 2008. Determination and being methodical has finally got us there. So don't give up hope.

 

Your son's Statement should be a reflection of his special needs. Part 2 should identify every need, and part 3 should identify HOW they will meet those needs and WHO will do it. Sections 2 and 3 should make it quite clear what type of placement the child needs. So I am assuming that his current Statement is pretty poor.

 

Whilst he is out of school due to ????? - please explain exactly why he is out of school. Is it due to behaviour, anxiety, self harm, etc. Then you need a letter from a consultant - clinical pscyhology, CAHMS or a Paediatrician that states he is unable to access education due to his medical condition. When you have that the LA MUST provide home tuition.

 

Our LA tried to reintroduce my son into his former school. He was only supposed to have two sessions of 1.5 hours, but he was demanding to come home inside of an hour. He was being taught in a separate room [actually the store room], with a teacher. He was refusing to go outside to play. He has now developed OCD. The Tribunal Decision stated "we are of the opinion that xxxx will not choose to return to his former placement due to his past experiences of failure there and in any case we do not believe this school can meet his needs." QED.

 

The Tribunal Panel will listen to what you say, and more importantly they will READ everything you submit. So you need to have everything on paper. So start going through everything you have, and start getting everything in writing eg. write to the school, minutes of the meeting, a daily dairy/chronology of how your son is, what he does/says etc.

[Sally44]

Yes, as Grace has pointed out. The LA have to go with the parental choice of school unless they can prove that it is unsuitable or not an effective use of the LA's resources.

 

You have alot of evidence that mainstream has not worked. The LA have not offered anything else. Get that list of approved/independend secondary schools for ASD from your LA and start visiting them.

 

Read the Code of Practice, that is how the SEN process should be.

[Sally44]

I just wanted to clarify that the 'Panel' you talk about is a local authority meeting of various local authority employees.

 

Just because they don't agree with you does not make them right. They are bound not to agree because what you are asking for will cost them more money. They are not following SEN law or guidance and unfortunately there is no-one who will tell you this.

 

If you went to a Special Educational Needs Tribunal, things would be very different. The Panel goes on 'evidence' written and verbal. And follows SEN case law. There is no way that a SEN Tribunal Panel would decide to send a child back into a mainstream school that they were refusing to attend. You have alot of evidence that mainstream is not/has not worked.

 

You just need to stand your ground and state that. As you are having an emergency review, there will be an outcome to that. Either the LA will amend or not amend the Statement. Whatever they do, you now have the legal right to appeal the Statement.

 

At the meeting please try to have it recorded.

 

As well as having your reasons written down [which the LA already know, but are just ignoring]. Ask them some questions:

 

Why do they feel that mainstream has failed for your son.

What do they think his main difficulties are.

How do they think these could be best met.

Do they feel that the level of professional input is producing progress [academically, socially, emotionally etc]

What are the school/LA suggesting that would be different or additional to the current situation either in terms of support, professional therapy, or a different placement.

 

Just write down/record the answers.

 

Your view is that mainstream isn't working. And you have years of evidence of that.

 

You are still at the point where you believe that IF you explain clearly enough what your son needs that the LA will provide it. They won't. They have a number of children on their register like your son and they will not be meeting their needs either. That is because it costs them money to do it. So they act like they don't know, don't agree, don't understand what you are on about. But they do know. Don't waste your time trying to convince them. Just state your opinion and wait and see what they suggest. Then appeal. You have nothing to lose by appealing and everything to gain.

[Sally44]

How did the emergency review go?

[puffin]

£14K sounds a bit on the high side,

 

I expect they are quoting the average cost to the school rather than merely the salary costs - the full cost would include employers NI, overheads training costs etc

[Sally44]

If the professional is not on site you also factor in the travelling costs, and you would apply the costs an independent professional would charge. [i know this is not relevent if the TA is all day - but wanted to bring it up regarding other professionals]

 

LAs often claim that placements and therapies costs them nothing. There is case law about this, and that argument does not hold water at a Tribunal, but you may need to bring up the relevent case law to draw the Panel's attention to it.]

Edited November 20, 2011 by Sally44