How Many Hours......

[asdinit]

....... are needed to be on a statement to be eligible (for want of a better word) for an ASD unit or for a specialist placement?

 

(null)

[justine1]

Hi

 

As far as I know,at least in my case,it was more about what the child requires i.e specialist/ASD teachers as opposed to the hours. Sam was 6 (year 2) when we were going through statementing,he already had 1:1 and was only at school 9-12,he was excluded four times in less than a year. So by May(around half way through statementing) the ed psych arranged for Sam to start at an ASD unit without statement because of how serious things were,they said it was very rare.

 

When we moved I tried him at mainstream again but it did not last....just 3 half days and they wrote to say he was "out of control." His statement does not have that many overall hours,the hours specified for each need is sufficient but I know others with more than Sam who do not attend a special school or unit. Again I think its more about what the child needs and the wording as opposed to the hours....quality rather than quantity. Example would be that Sam has in his statement that he gets access to SALT but this actually is not specific with time but because he is at a unit he gets SALT twice a week,once 1:1 and once in a group, so he is lucky in a sense.I know if he was in mainstream he would not be able to get anywhere near as much support.

[asdinit]

That makes sense. M has been given 20 hours support and the proposed statement is for him to be in mainstream which is SO not for him. He's never coped with MS (now yr3) so I'm hoping to be able to get him in a unit at the very least!

Thanks Justine

[chris54]

The problem with quantifying the amount of support a child needs in terms of hours is that a child may not need constant 1 to 1, but input of varying degrees throughout the school day, as well as specialist input at specific times.

 

Me son has a statement stating 10 hour a week. sound fine only in reality it meant that for 2 hours a day he had one to one and they tried to get as much of his learning done in that time, when he was with out one to one he achieved little. There was other support throughout the day provided out of delegate funding. But there were still large parts of the day that were lost.

 

Despite our and his schools best efforts, he still only has 10 hours on his statement. He is now at secondary school. There they have a different and I would say controversial approach, but it works well for us. They have what they refer to as pooled support. He no longer gets 10 hours of one to one support, What he gets is the support that he needs throughout the day, manly by being in a class of just 12 with a teacher and a TA.(For most subjects). For for others, maths, science, PE, he is in a normal sized class, About 22 at his school, but there is a TA (There wouldn't normally be one) in the class who is there to assist him when required.

 

He also does small group work and some one to one with specialist teachers.(Hand writing).

There is also a lunchtime club.

 

This way of working relays on having a good SENCO and for the school to be adequately funded. Fortunately, we have both.

[asdinit]

Yes, I see what you mean. M's EP has said that he should have a buddy in the playground and 'access' (I hate that word right now!) to circle of friends - well that sort of knocks out 6 hours a week already! Divide the rest up and for him it's hardly anything - Another battle coming on I think !!!

[chris54]

Some would argue and they would be correct that the system used by me sons school does not fulfill the terms of his statement. But if the school are meeting his needs what is most important.

 

Just to add it is a mainstream academy secondary school split over 2 sites with a total of about 2000 children, there's about 400 at our site. Our site is getting a completely new school building which they will be moving into in the summer. It was one of the last schools to be funded under the school building program of the last government. In the new building there will be much more space with the classrooms opening onto a central space, no more crush on small landings, and less upping and downing stairs.

Edited April 26, 2012 by chris54

[Sally44]

As already said it is NOT about hours.

 

It is the following things:

 

Needing a small class size of no more than 8 pupils.

Needing a low arousal environment.

Needing a similar peer group.

Needing certain teaching approaches such as TEACCH.

Needing teachers that have an additional qualification for teaching children with autism on top of their teaching qualification.

Needing a high level of therapy from Speech and Language Therapists and Occupational Therapists to meet their speech and language and social communication and sensory processing disorder, dyspraxia, motor planning difficulties. Which needs to be delivered by a THERAPIST and not a TA which must be delivered flexibly across the week.

Needing an emotional literacy programme delivered explicitly.

Needing a social skills group with a similar peer group.

Needing to be taught life skills.

Again needing therapists [sALT and OT] that have expertise/qualifications for those therapies such as being qualified to deliver a Sensory Integration Programme.

Also if the child has additional complex and severe needs which just make it impossible to meet their needs mainstsream.

 

In your situation, if you have evidence that he is not accessing mainstream because he has to be withdrawn and taught 1:1 because he cannot cope in the classroom - or becomes upset/frustrated/angry and gets excluded etc.

 

You would need to argue that he was not coping. Was often very distressed going into school or when returning home or during school. Did not have the speech and language and social skills of his classmates.

 

The Code of Practice says that LAs have to go with parental choice of school UNLESS they can prove it is not a good use of their resources or that it would be to the detriment of the other pupils. So if you ask for an autism unit or special school [that you have visited and which has other ASD pupils and where you feel he would fit in, cope better - then ask for that placement.

 

If the LA says it is full, you can still appeal that decision and see if the Tribunal Order the LA to make another place available for your child.

 

They could argue that he is not suitable from an academic point of view if he is more academically able than the other children in the unit or special school. But you would counter argue that he cannot tolerate a mainstream class and is effectively excluded and taught on a 1:1 basis outside of the classroom, and that he needs a small class size and low arousal environment to cope, and that the staff SHOULD be able to differentiate his work and give him more support because they will automatically have a higher pupil:staff ratio. Say that he has been excluded and is at risk of being excluded further, or of refusing school altogether.

 

But you need to go and visit the other options so you know what is available.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Sally44

[bed32]

I would say you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. The question should be "Where is best for my son" or at least "where can meet his needs"?

 

Note that as you have a statement (or at least a proposed statement) then if you want him in an ASD unit in a maintained school then you should get that (subject to space being available).

 

I would recommend that you have a look round at any school in the neighbourhood that might possibly fit (or not) and see which you prefer. We are going through this process for our yr4 son as we are also at the proposed statement stage. Round here the decision is difficult - there are no ASD units in primary schools - only SEN units that are really aimed at MLD. However some mainstream schools are better than others at dealing with SEN so you may find a local mainstream school that is good with SEN children. I can strongly recommend the OFSTED reports as a first port of call. They include some useful information including how many children in the school have statements.

 

Don't take the proposed 20 hours as the limit - if you want to stay in Mainstream you need full time and there should be no problem in getting that. Also don't let them get away with saying "A TA" - make sure that the statement makes it explicit what experience or qualifications they must have.

 

FWIW we are probably going to try to keep our son in his present Mainstream school for at least another year to see how things progress once the statement is in place, but that is dependent on getting full time support and some of the other help he needs (pretty much exactly the list from Sally44 above). What is not clear to me is how that will be provided in practice within an MS environment, one of the huge benefits of a specialist school is that they are geared up to providing SALT, OT and so on as part of the school day.

[asdinit]

In your situation, if you have evidence that he is not accessing mainstream because he has to be withdrawn and taught 1:1 because he cannot cope in the classroom - or becomes upset/frustrated/angry and gets excluded etc.

 

You would need to argue that he was not coping. Was often very distressed going into school or when returning home or during school. Did not have the speech and language and social skills of his classmates.

 

You're so right there Sally!

 

I've arranged to see 4 schools in Kent now, one was a unit which we saw the other day which was OK but the lunch time eating will be an issue as the unit children eat in the hall with the other (already a major issue for M). Unfortunately it's the only one with a unit so we're looking at the other 3 over the next week or so which are specialist so will see what they are like.

 

I would say you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. The question should be "Where is best for my son" or at least "where can meet his needs"?

 

I can see that's how it seems but I was asking more to see if M HAD to have a certain number of hours on his statement in order to access a unit or specialist school - I'm trying to have as many answers to as many questions as poss just in case they are thrown at me!

 

Some would argue and they would be correct that the system used by me sons school does not fulfill the terms of his statement. But if the school are meeting his needs what is most important.

If your son is happy that must be the right place for him

 

Thanks everyone for your help x

[Sally44]

I also wanted to add that as the Statement is saying 20 hours support you can ask the inclusion officer to detail where that support would be given.

 

Then, when you have that, you can argue that as your child has such significant needs and difficulties that it is bizarre to suggest that he needs 1:1 for x, y and z for him to engage and to keep his frustration/anger/outbursts under control [which you now have examples of], and then for the rest of his school week he needs no support at all.

 

And due to an ASD he is going to need support during breaktimes and dinnertimes because it is during unstructured times that they struggle even more.

 

You are looking to get his needs identified and provision for them. The placement options are going to be mainstream with support [and at transfer year you maybe able to argue that that has not worked, that he has been effectively withdrawn most of the time for learning, that he has not coped in primary and therefore will not cope in a larger more confusing secondary school model with constant changes of classroom, teacher and pupils. And of course he may not have made progress, or the gap between him and his peers has widened, or he may not even be in school any longer due to not coping.

 

Or you will go down the ASD unit/special school route where at transfer year you can argue that he continues to need the small class/low arousal environment with a high pupil:teacher ration. You can argue that the secondary school model of that is not appropriate because it does not meet his academic ability or the peers are not at a similar academic or social ability. Or that the unit feeds children across to mainstream which he would not cope with. And that he needs an ASD specific school where he will get that environment, where there will be specialist teachers and professionals on site to deliver the SALT and OT therapy he needs [which you will probably have had to get that advice via independent reports].

 

It is VERY difficult to get an independent placement whilst still in primary. We achieved it because our son was out of school for most of year 5. We had lodged an appeal with SEND, and the date was cancelled twice. So our Appeal was heard in year 6, when he was still out of school. We could prove that it was unlikely that he would ever agree to return to his former primary school and so he needed to move to an ASD specific school immediately.

 

We had asked [prior to the Tribunal], that the Appeal ONLY considered primary stage because we felt we could prove the placement had broken down. And we said that we would still have the transfer AR after the Appeal. The SEND Judge agreed with that argument [you can ask for points to be clarified before you even have the Tribunal Appeal].

 

We did that as a tactical move because it was very unlikely that the LA would recommend he was moved out of his ASD specific placement to a mainstream secondary school or unit or special school because the SEND Decision would only be 4 months old at that time. That worked. We asked that he remained there for the secondary placement and the LA agreed.

 

Now they have agreed that, it makes it very hard for the LA to move him because it is now their responsibility to prove that that school cannot meet his needs or that he has not made progress there.

 

So, wherever your child is placed during primary, if that placement breaks down - and it is more likely to break down in mainstream - you can ask for an emergency review and then Appeal to SEND after the outcome of that and seek an immediate transfer to an ASD specific school whilst the child is in year 6.

 

I know that is all rather technical, but proving primary has NOT worked is easier than arguing that the secondary placement is not suitable [especially when the child has not even been there yet]. But it does rely on your child having refused school whilst at primary and not having attended for some time.

[chris54]

Don't take the proposed 20 hours as the limit - if you want to stay in Mainstream you need full time and there should be no problem in getting that. Also don't let them get away with saying "A TA" - make sure that the statement makes it explicit what experience or qualifications they must have.

 

 

bed32, You cant possibly know that there would be no problem getting full time one to one. There is always the possibility that if the amount of support being given is looked at again, it could be cut not increased.

 

I don't know in this case, but many of us, we only realy have the chose of one school. the next nearest school to me would involve best part of an hours travel each way. This would have to be balanced up with the benefits. Fortunately for us for us our local school is working out fine so it is not something I have had to consider.

Edited April 27, 2012 by chris54

[asdinit]

I know that is all rather technical, but proving primary has NOT worked is easier than arguing that the secondary placement is not suitable [especially when the child has not even been there yet]. But it does rely on your child having refused school whilst at primary and not having attended for some time.

 

Yes, I can definitely see where you are coming from on this. Arguing something that has already happened is always going to be easier than trying to make a case for something that will happen - or may happen which will be their argument.

[Sally44]

That is why it is important to get the Statement as tight as you can now, with as much provision as you can now, so that the LA don't say in 2 years time - but we can do more. You need to be at the limit of what they can provide and it isn't working. Or that your son needs therapies that the NHS do not fund such as Sensory Integration Therapy etc.

 

Then the LA mainstream/unit or special school option is not workable.

[Sally44]

And yes you are limited to schools.

 

Ideally, if travelling by taxi, the journey wants to be no more than 45 minutes. Unless you are asking for a boarding placement - which is even harder to get. So, for some, whatever the LA offers is the only workable option, and in those cases this is extra provision being put into place with the school/LA continue to keep trying to chip away at, rather than it being part of the standard provision.

 

There seems to be more placement choice down south.

[bed32]

bed32, You cant possibly know that there would be no problem getting full time one to one. There is always the possibility that if the amount of support being given is looked at again, it could be cut not increased.

 

I don't know in this case, but many of us, we only realy have the chose of one school. the next nearest school to me would involve best part of an hours travel each way. This would have to be balanced up with the benefits. Fortunately for us for us our local school is working out fine so it is not something I have had to consider.

Okay - let me qualify that a bit. From other posts it seems that OPs son is very similar to ours, and has similar issues in school. I have no doubt that to succeed in mainstream school our son needs full time support - and in fact that is not enough as there is so much more he needs to be taught above and beyond the usual curriculum in a mainstream school.

 

In our case I have do doubt at all that we would get full time support from a tribunal - and I hope we will get the LA to agree to that at least without having to go to tribunal. Every child's circumstances are different but I think the comparison is pretty valid.

 

As for not having any options - there are always options, it is just a matter of what compromises you have to make. Earlier this week we drove over 2 hours each way to see a possible school for our son. Obviously it would require a major upheaval to get him there but if we think it is the perfect place for him we will make it happen.

 

Many ASD children manage well in MS primary schools, if your's is in one that works then you are lucky. For our son, and I imagine the OP's, mainstream is just not working today. The real issue for us (whether or not LA agree) is not whether he should get 15hrs or full time support on MS but whether even with the best possible help he will be able to continue in Mainstream even at primary level - let alone at secondary

[Sally44]

Remember whatever school you look at [LA or independent, mainstream/unit or ASD specific] that each will have their admissions criteria for the type of pupils they take.

As far as possible you try to get a placement that is a very similar peer group, working at similar levels, with similar needs, and a requirement for similar support/approaches and therapies.

 

Sometimes it just isn't possible to tick all the boxes. Eg. an LA special school may fit most of the criteria, and the environment, but the children may have general learning disabilities, yet their social skills maybe reasonably good.

 

As anxiety is a major issue with children with an ASD my opinion would probably be to go with the best environment and higher pupil:teacher ratio. And get therapies quantified and specified in the Statement, as well as needing their work differentiating by a teacher with an addtiional qualification for autism, and differentiated to the level they are working at.

 

Some families just cannot move. Jobs, other kids, wider family etc. As parents we ALL do the best we can.

[chris54]

So you've moved 150 miles, living in private rented that is a load of Cr--, other kids not happy as they have had to leave all there friends, change school (Missed 6 weeks while waiting for school places to be arranged), looking for work, cant afford the rent, had to sell the car and then the school placement breaks down, what next.

Well this never happened, but if we start traveling the country chasing school places it could.

 

I do/did know someone who moved to be nearer the special school for his boy, but he was unemployed, and live in housing association house who agree to move them to one of there other properties. And he did not have any other school age children.

[bed32]

All I was trying to point out is that it is very rare that there are genuinely no options - although in many cases the options may involved unacceptable compromises for other members of the family. There are few people for whom moving 100 miles is a realistic option - but many for whom a move of 20 is realistic.

 

Education for ASD children is a nightmare for parents - especially round here. The Local Authorities are very poor in providing any SEN provision, let alone that appropriate for AS children. From other posts you have made I guess that you are fortunately enough to be in a situation where your child can cope in the local Mainstream school. Many of those of us on this forum are not so lucky.

 

I imagine most parents would prefer their children to be suitably supported in a Mainstream environment than having to consider special schools with all the disadvantages they bring

[chris54]

If all the mainstream school were as good as the one my son goes to there would be a lot more children who could cope.

The only reason there aren't more school like that is the management of the school, and the funding. Both of which could be address if there was the will.

 

I just get fed up repeatedly hearing from government, (and others) that we all have this massive pool of schools (All types of schools) to choose from and that will somehow drive standers up. And if we are not happy with the school our child is at we just move them to the school down the road and everything will be Hunky Dorry.

 

As for moving house, well you could say I was luck in as much as I own my own house, but round here it is currently taking 18 months plus to sell houses. What would I do in the mean time.

We were, a year+ ago contemplating a school place that was be about 45 minuets drive away. But even if we had gone for that school there was the distinct possibility that we would not have got a place as the school is something like 3 times oversubscribed, so in effect the school chose who would go there.

 

I'm not saying people should not consider moving to be nearer a school that child child has been given a place at. I'm saying that it should very much be the exception, that what is needed is better school provision for all of us, Local, so we don't need to make them sort of chooses. I don't want anyone feeling guilty, that maybe if they had made more sacrifice them selves that maybe there child's life would have not turned out so bad. For some people who live in very remote areas of the country, it is normal for their children to board out with local families (Local to the school) because there are just to remote from the school to make daily travel possible.

 

When my mother was a child she had a 7 mile walk to school each day, 5 miles in the summer when they could cut across the fields. And if they were lucky there might be a farm wagon going part of their way. How many of us would these days find it acceptable for their 5 year old to walk them sort of distances each day, with only there 8 year old brother for company.

I walked best part of 2 miles to school often on my own from 5. 50 years ago no one thought any thing of it.

 

I don't think we realy want, or are likely to ever return to them days.

 

Now just to counter the argument for provision Locally, my council is in the very process of doing just that. One of the driving forces behind it is the cost of school transport. But many see it as a backward step, as it is seen to diluting the expertise that currently exists. And many wonder how the children will manage with the new arrangements.

 

Well Iv rambled on a bit here, sorry about that.

[Kazzen161]

Yes, I see what you mean. M's EP has said that he should have a buddy in the playground and 'access' (I hate that word right now!) to circle of friends - well that sort of knocks out 6 hours a week already! Divide the rest up and for him it's hardly anything - Another battle coming on I think !!!

 

The "buddy" in the playground will be another child, so that does not take up any of the hours. The "circle of friends" would only take up about 30mins per week once it is set up.

[bed32]

Chris - it sounds as if you are lucky. We should be entitled to good local provision for our children's education but in many places that does not happen, Organisations like Cambian Group and Priory would not need to exist if the LAs were doing their job. The fact that tribunals will send children to very expensive independent placements is the clearest evidence that LAs are failing to provide that themselves.

 

I believe that mainstream (maintained) with an ASD unit is the ideal situation for our son (at least at secondary). Unfortunately no such place exists in my LA. I am lucky to be the corner of the LA so I have 3 other LAs close by and there is one mainstream school (that moved to new premises a couple of months ago) that does have an ASD unit (in fact they have two) but that is not a particularly good school (I wouldn't send our NT son there) and I don't know yet whether they are set up to deal with children like M - many ASD units seem to cater more for Moderate ASD rather than the more AS-like issues he has.

 

I actually feel angry about this - it is ridiculous that I should even have to consider an independent placement for my son - it is not perfect for him and would cost the LA several times what it would cost them to make as good or better provision within the maintained (probably mainstream) sector. But I can't force the LA to build the ASD units. My LA is reputed to send more than 50% of its ASD children out of the borough - many of them to independent schools.

 

I am not saying people ought to move to get their children into certain schools - but many do for NT children so I was pointing out that it remains a possibility. It is certainly easier for me to move nearer a good school than to move a good school nearer to me.

[chris54]

Yes we are luck, this time last year we were realy worrying about how thing would be. Hoping that we had done the right thing. Just hoping that in 6 years time I'm still saying the same thing.