A lack of self identity

raydon · October 20, 2012

I'm going to try and put some of my thoughts to the forum as I try to piece myself together. I'll do it in small steps to see if I can gain any further insight.

Ever since I was a child I have always felt that I am a mirror. I can mimic and respond reactively, and to different people I respond differently. I can't really fathom out what they are thinking so I try and invoke a smile or laugh which I can recognise. I seem to be able to get on with most people on a superficial level, but it never develops into a friendship. With two people involved I feel I am juggling between two different responses, it could be the same answer but said in a different way, and it becomes hard work. In a group situation with no one to focus on I have no definite way to respond not having a sense of a central me to fall back on, I feel very lonely and empty, but I only feel this in a crowd, on my own I am happy.

I don't have an empathy with a group, I can sense the mood, but don't know it's reason. It doesn't really affect me, if the mood is good I'll stay, if not I'll leave. It has often been said I have no personality, which I can't disagree with. I'm the quiet guy, who is a good listener, can answer questions, solve problems, but has no opinion, and ultimately is unknowable, a bit of a robot. I have cultivated a sense of anonymity as a way of hiding my central lack of self. In my specialist field I am very self confident in the knowledge and experience I have, also I am confident in my own survival instincts. It doesn't seem to be a lack of confidence, but something actually missing, this is probably a reason why people can't relate to me.

There also seems to be a gap in my overall picture of relationships, for example when talking to my nephew, I have no awareness that he is in fact my brothers son. It drives my wife nuts, because I can't piece together the family jigsaw. Everybody to me is an individual and the interconnections between them outside of my relationship are meaningless. I can sit down and draw a family tree, but in real time when conversing, those connections are just not there.

I have never felt competitive, never wanted to follow, and never wanted to lead, and only believe things I have actually experienced or which work for me. I even feel reading was contaminating my thoughts, as you can't argue/discuss with the author. I like facts, so I can make my own mind up. It is a very isolationist stance, and I would like to be able to find a way to connect but it never seems to work, so I am writing this as an experiment. I've not got a clue how it will come across, but I do not want sympathy, I'm happy at the moment, just trying to pull some previously unconnected pieces together, I'd love to hear other peoples thoughts and experiences.

LancsLad · October 21, 2012

Raydon what I don't understand in many ways is the title of your post. Having read much of what you have just written I think it is a consistent description of a human being, but then again anything could be a description of a human being we are so different and varied. As such I have no reason to doubt it in relation to yourself. If fact I would go further than that and say things such as ;

I'm the quiet guy, who is a good listener, can answer questions, solve problems....

are very good descriptors as to how I have viewed you since joining and making contributions on the forum. When it comes to these statements I have my problems;

.....but has no opinion, and ultimately is unknowable, a bit of a robot.

In many ways I find that very anoying because you are questioning me and not yourself. In a way you are saying I am not allowed to value your thoughts, I am unable to make connections with you at a personal level, I have to come to the conclusion you are not human after all rather you are merley mechanical.I am not sure that is very fair, just a thought.

I think it is important that we accept we are who we are but remeber that we have the capacity to work at being an better version of ourselves each and every day, but fundamentaly we are who we are an individual who has massive potential. Personally when it comes to what other people think of me I don't give a ######. Because ultimatly they do not control my destiny rather I do. So we have a choice as I see things accept ourselves for who we are, the good things the bad things or forever be trapped into wanting to be something else which simply ain't going to happen. Once we can accept that we have a second choice and that is to do something with what we have been given, to set our own agenda and set about achieving things which add value into our lives and as a bonus possibly into others then we are doing something of value.

If the question is what do you do to create things such as self-identity and importantly self-esteem it is through actions and consistency in your life. Those actions have to be representitive of the type of person we are. I suspect too many people within our society waste far too much of their life chasing what others think they should be doing, trying to follow stereotypical ideas with little success. I believe this works both ways in that there are stereotypes out there such as 'Aspie' ones which don't work, well at least they don't work for me. For sure I might have elements in my life which grouped together give me a pretty strong diagnosis of the condition, or that was the view of the professionals who gave me my diagnosis. But there is so much more to me than those elements, they are part of me but they don't define me. Rather they are elements I take forwards the good and the bad things.

So is my self-identity built upon my autistic traits, the answer is partly so but there are other things as well. I likewise recieved my diagnosis later in life and I consider myself fortunate in that respect because I did not have to endure 44 years of people telling me I had AS rather they treated me simply as me. At times that pissed them off a lot, at other times people were impresed by who I am. In a way I feel sorry for some of the kids with a diagnosis today who gain their self-identity from a badge, I have no such excuse. My final point is we can construct a self-identity how we wish but if we don't do anything with it then in truth it serves no purpose whatsoever rather it supports a belief process of making lame excusses. When we take action and responsibility for our destiny then we give ourselves permissoin to build self-esteem and that is a life long process and in many ways what I did 10 or 20 years ago counts for little, some people think it does but status is pretty shallow. Rather I have to go out and find that value in myself each and every day.

Raydon you can look at yourself how you wish because to be honest it doesn't affect me, I am pleased that you are happy at the moment, but it really doesn't affect me. I can draw my own conclusions and from what I have seen of you on the forum so far I like you and it is comforting to have someone else on board with a lot of experience. In general terms sure some things about the condition are frustrating, really frustrating. I get anoyed for example that I really struggle to pick out my 8 year old son at the school gates when I go to pick him up because of face blindness. But I struggle to pick my partner out at a train station. In fact I have struggled with this all my life it is part of being me. I could make a long list of AS traits but it would achieve little.

In other ways I have had low points in my life, being naked locked in a room within a secure unit, loosing £70k and a bussiness in a liquidation, burrying two close friends through climbing and caving accidents, recently finding I have a tumour growing on my spine. But this is what life throws at you but none of these things are attributable to AS rather they are just what life throws at you along the way, AS, NT or anything inbetween.

Throughout my life I have always been a bit of a street fighter who din't give a toss about what anyone else thought about him, always looking for the next thing to take on. There are a lot of factors which contribute to that concept of self-identity, but it is importantly a version of self I relate to. The day after I was told I had a tumour on my spine I was out giving it a massive blast on my bike racing and overtaking cars to test myself out, it is how I dealt with it, my conclusion is it doesn't make a difference I am still who I am and nothing has changed I am still a bit of a 'punk' though my hair is not dyed or gelled up these days, fundamentaly I am the same kid inside. In a way my actions that day and almost every day since have reinforced my self-identity and as such my self-esteem is maintained because of the consistency in my life and the fact I push most of the time to do things.

I think it is really important that we accept ourselves for who we are in a positive way. If that is as a quiet thinker then what is wrong with that. If it is as an extrovert showman then what is wrong with that just as long as it is a positive and truthful response to ourself.

I'm happy at the moment, just trying to pull some previously unconnected pieces together.

I think the challenge post diagnosis is to remain true to yourself and not let the badge defelect your thinking into negative directions. I can remeber after a period of reflection making the decision to look for an ASD forum and to sign up and was really looking forwards to it. When I did what really surprised me was the amount of negativity on these pages it was a shock at first. For a second I thought have i got this AS thing wrong in my own thought processes, I quickly dropped such ideas. For sure you will use AS as a glue which might help to cement some previously fragmented pieces together, I can say that was my experience. Some of those pieces might be connected to events in my life which were not that easy, but I dealt with them at the time without a diagnosis and that is important. The fact is I didn't look for excusses at the time rather i did my best to deal with things. I think one of the hardest things post diagnosis is having to deal in a culture where many people use AS as an excusse, because that is a new concept to me. In a way when new problems come along in life then big question might now be, where does AS fit in? Whilst it might be tempting to use it as an excusse I know there is one truth in my life and it is this....

.... I am the same person I have always been. For sure I have gained experience and have learn't a few tricks along the way, any old dog would, but I am fundamentaly the same, we can be nothing else. And as far as AS well that is just one part of me in some scenarios it has a big part, in others it is a little thing somewhere in the background.

Just a few thoughts.

karmadestiny · October 21, 2012

Raydon, the only thing I can add on to what Lancslad has so clearly and efficiently written is that for years I tried to fit into other people perspective of who I am and how I should live my life, to the point that a few years back I totally lost myself...I became a people pleaser, a mat for eveyone to walk on, and take advantage of...I say, became, because this was a form of conditioning that started during my childhood and I allowed to go on for years...I was born as a small adult rather than a child...there were alot of issues in our household, mum always ill, crying, depressed, dad always shouting to the top of his lungs threatening he was gonna leave...I had always been more senitive to what was going on than my siblings and it effected me much more deeply...As the oldest of the four girls my mum depended on me to help her with my younger sisters...I was only 5/6 when the baby sitting duties and helping with chores around the house started...I wasn't allowed to go and play with my friends as friends were a bad influence and helping my mum in the house was more important...

But during those times what really effected me was the neglect I suffered from my mum, the lack of love, or even acknowledgment of me being one of her children, not the 'help'!...I got it into my head I wasn't worthy of her love, she didn't even notice me, therefore there was something wrong with me...the problem was with me, I had to change and be worthy of her love and attention...So began a long journey of becoming someone she would want to be proud of, someone she would notice and acknowledge...

We moved house every year, as my father got bored in one place very easily and it was years of constant changing of houses and schools, which affected my education immensly ( as you may see from my spellings:)...By the age of 12 my schooling was put to an end...I only had 2 months at my first year in secondry school which is now year 7...In those days no-one was bothered, no school inspectors came down to find out why I wasn't at school...Now I was at home full time looking after my mum, taking on all the household duties...the atmosphere was always so heavy, so full of negativity, but I had set my mind on proving to my mum that I was worth her love...So I got with life, I learnt to do all that needed doing and I became pretty efficient at all that I did...but it was never enough Raydon,no matter what i did it always fell short...I was always made to feel like a failer...but I kept going hoping one day she will notice...Within this time, alot of self loathing started to set in, I started to hate who I was, I hated my life...I couldn't even look in the mirror, I hated the person looking back at me...As time went on I took on more and more, te external family members started placing alot of their duties on my shoulders too, from baby sitting, to being an all round family interpreter to working in the industrial business, to being the family birthing partner, filling in forms, make calls, writing formal letters, organising family events...the list went on and on and I grabbed any opportunity to excel and gain more recognition as anything else outsdie of my four walls was out of my reach...The final hurdle came the day I got married and that is a story for another day....

In the end my life was so fragmented, I was taking one mask off and changing into another so often...I lost YASMIN in the process....I started to feel resentful of the people who started to take advantage of my warm and caring disposition, I became angry, self hating, totally lost to negative emotions...It took me years of soul searching to discover that I had literally allowed people to dictate their needs and wants and I had placed myself in the very position I was in...The responsibility all came down on my shoulders regardless of the unending excuses I presented to myself for the outcome...I knew it would be a long and maybe very tough journey back, but I was now determined to work myself out of the rut I had placed myself in...We all have choices, even though the choices come surrounded by a wave of obstacles, we still have them, it is our responsiblity to wiegh up and choose to grab them and pay the price its tagged with...Today I have worked hard on finding me again, you are YOU Raydon...its very simple. You have clearly identified what it is you need to work on, all it takes is a little dedication...things like family relationships can be remedied by being consciouce of who you're with and how they fit into your life...one thing at a time...Sorry though I may not have written anything of great distress, it has taken alot out of me...as there was alot attached i havn't mentioned...

BE yourself Raydon however you are don't ever lose the person you are, becasue you want to fit into someone else's idealogy...The best gift we can all give ourselves like Lansclad said is to be true to yourself, LIVE YOUR OWN TRUTH:)! Sorry don't know if anything made sense to you...

raydon · October 21, 2012

LancsLad and Karmadestiny thank you both very much for your thoughts and energies they are really helpful, you have put so much into your replies. It's people like you and groups like this that have helped to open my eyes to new approaches and possibilities.

Having thought on, by lack of self identity, I think I meant "the inner child". It has never been allowed to develop, hence I feel this hole in me. My symptoms as a child were pretty extreme, today they would have been picked up on immediately, but in the 1950s they were controlled by discipline force and suppression. Being bright I was just treated as a very naughty boy with some bad habits. Until recently I had never made any connection between these apparently unrelated issues along with the cognitive and sensitvity ones.

So although I excelled academically at school, socially I could not fit in. All my energies were invested in my passion which thankfully is a useful one. Through life I have developed strategies purely from a pragmatic stance, and a sense of duty, and have managed to avoid those awkward social ones because they were just too painful, not having the knowledge or tools to deal with them.

.....but has no opinion, and ultimately is unknowable, a bit of a robot.

In many ways I find that very anoying because you are questioning me and not yourself. In a way you are saying I am not allowed to value your thoughts, I am unable to make connections with you at a personal level, I have to come to the conclusion you are not human after all rather you are merley mechanical.I am not sure that is very fair, just a thought.

I didn't intend to give the impression that I doubted your ability to make up your mind about me, I was trying to convey that I have lots of concurrent ideas and thoughts on the same subject, it is always work in progress, having to rethink every time I'm asked the same question. The answer which comes to the surface is fairly random, it depends on other feelings or associations I make at the time so I can end up saying opposing things. This is probably because I deny or don't take these into consideration. The consistant thing about me is my apparent ambivalence. The pragmatic survivalist side of me is the robot.

So my task now is to find a way to wake up the little Raydon, he did show his head very briefly a while ago, he seemed like fun,

Shnoing · October 21, 2012

I'm going to try and put some of my thoughts to the forum as I try to piece myself together. ... Ever since I was a child I have always felt that I am a mirror. I can mimic and respond reactively, and to different people I respond differently. ... I'm the quiet guy, who is a good listener, can answer questions, solve problems, but has no opinion, and ultimately is unknowable, a bit of a robot. I have cultivated a sense of anonymity as a way of hiding my central lack of self. ... It doesn't seem to be a lack of confidence, but something actually missing, this is probably a reason why people can't relate to me. ... I have never felt competitive, never wanted to follow, and never wanted to lead, and only believe things I have actually experienced or which work for me. ... I would like to be able to find a way to connect but it never seems to work, so I am writing this as an experiment. I've not got a clue how it will come across, but I do not want sympathy, ... I'd love to hear other peoples thoughts and experiences.

Many interesting aspects - I cannot respond to all of them at once. I became aware of having been a "mirror" at age 15, and I decided to put a stop to it then. Still (at age 41), I feel more at ease when responding to a question (or a comment) than when initiating a conversation myself. What seems to be missing (I've learned about that only recently) is the connection to your own emotions (that is, your sub-conscious reactions). That's where you get those things from that you described (lack of competitiveness, etc.). The emotions are there (at least, in my case), and when I focus on them, I understand what my emotions mean (e.g. I like or I dislike something).

Eta: ok, call that your "inner child" ...

Edited October 21, 2012 by Shnoing

darkshine · October 21, 2012

When I'm with other people I don't know who the hell I am, its easier to be alone because I can be more like me, but I don't know what me is even then,let alone when it comes to others because they expect stuff and I don't know how to be myself, what makes it worse is if I try to be me with other people I get met with negative reactions - and the more people there are the worse it gets, 1 is ok, 2 is sort of ok, (and I use the word "ok" very loosely here cuz the effort it entails is very draining and I also get left feeling very negative and hollow) when there are more people it all falls apart, as do I.

Even spending time alone, I do not know who I am, and I don't particularly like myself.

It's easier online though cuz I get a chance to speak the way I want, but only in certain places, if I email people who know me then I end up falling into the same old routines as when I'm with them in person because they don't really want to hear what I actually have to say - unless I make sure I only say certain things that is...

I wonder how I can interact in the world when there are people there who change me, and whom I change myself for, because the real me just isn't good enough - I find it is quite depressing to be honest, it sucks motivation out of me and leaves me feeling that I'm just someone who has something fundamentally wrong with them - and I don't really like carrying around the feeling that I'm not good enough either - its bad enough that I'm not good enough for people who have met me, but when I don't feel good enough for myself either, where does it allow hope for the future?

The saving grace is the internet and a few people on this forum and even that is problematic cuz of my hand problems and typing & that restricts me way too much - and the one place I can talk freely is limited now - and I wonder if the people I do get on with and who seem to like me on here would still feel the same way if they met me or if I'd get stuck in the same old role of not being able to be me - whatever me is.

LancsLad · October 21, 2012

So my task now is to find a way to wake up the little Raydon, he did show his head very briefly a while ago, he seemed like fun.

Just want to say that made me smile a lot, because I think it is a wonderful approach to take.

raydon · October 21, 2012

Many interesting aspects - I cannot respond to all of them at once. I became aware of having been a "mirror" at age 15, and I decided to put a stop to it then. Still (at age 41), I feel more at ease when responding to a question (or a comment) than when initiating a conversation myself. What seems to be missing (I've learned about that only recently) is the connection to your own emotions (that is, your sub-conscious reactions). That's where you get those things from that you described (lack of competitiveness, etc.). The emotions are there (at least, in my case), and when I focus on them, I understand what my emotions mean (e.g. I like or I dislike something).

I have very limited emotional responses, as a child they manifested mainly as happiness or rage. I didn't like receiving praise or being the centre of attention, so I made sure I didn't win. Now the rages are pretty much under control and my rewards come through the work I do, and keeping my family safe. I also find answering questions easier because they have defined boundaries, rather than an abstract conversation.

Even spending time alone, I do not know who I am, and I don't particularly like myself.

.....

I wonder how I can interact in the world when there are people there who change me, and whom I change myself for, because the real me just isn't good enough - I find it is quite depressing to be honest, it sucks motivation out of me and leaves me feeling that I'm just someone who has something fundamentally wrong with them - and I don't really like carrying around the feeling that I'm not good enough either - its bad enough that I'm not good enough for people who have met me, but when I don't feel good enough for myself either, where does it allow hope for the future?

I've been through times of self hate, I found alot of that was caused by people trying and succeeding in making me feel guilty. I've come to terms with those aspects by seeing how unreasonable and manipulative some people are, or even society is, if I don't fit into their scheme of things. The world isn't in such a #### state because of me! Rules and social norms are made by and for an NT mindset.

If something is genuinely my fault I'll put my hands up and admit it, but I'm not going to take the flak for someone else anymore.

Karmadestiny has put that message very powerfully in her post.

Most importantly forgive yourself whatever yourself is.

Edited October 21, 2012 by raydon

darkshine · October 21, 2012

I've been through times of self hate, I found alot of that was caused by people trying and succeeding in making me feel guilty. I've come to terms with those aspects by seeing how unreasonable and manipulative some people are, or even society is, if I don't fit into their scheme of things. The world isn't in such a #### state because of me! Rules and social norms are made by and for an NT mindset.

If something is genuinely my fault I'll put my hands up and admit it, but I'm not going to take the flak for someone else anymore.

Karmadestiny has put that message very powerfully in her post.

Most importantly forgive yourself whatever yourself is.

I can identify with quite a bit of what Karmadestiny has said, I'm kinda stuck at the moment between my past and now - I'm not sure how to move from the position I have been in, to one that would be more healthy in a number of ways.

A lot of my self-criticism and self hate are related to my lack of self worth - doesn't matter if a hundred people said I was worthy for some reason, I lack the internal feeling, I feel worthless and nothing ever feels like its good enough, I don't apply myself because negative thinking stops me, everything feels pointless and I struggle to see where anything I do fits into the grand scheme of things.

I also lack direction, I don't know what to do or what to aim for, nothing grabs my attention for long, and things that do interest me get twisted in my mind into something negative. I suppose low self-esteem is part of this, and I find that there's so much stuff going on in my mind that it becomes impossible to even think straight at times, I try and do things, things I know I can do quite easily, but all this stuff gets activated and I get swallowed by a load of bad things.

I'm trying to change this, trying to find some sort of value, some sort of self belief, and its so hollow and meaningless, I wonder sometimes if I've been twisted by all this dark, depressive stuff that I've been lost in for so many years, and I guess that's why I get so downhearted and miserable, because I'm trying to learn and change and grow, and its like having black tentacles of evil sucking me into something I can never seem to escape from cuz it just keeps pulling me back.

This all started when I was about 13 and I started questioning who I was - and I didn't have an answer. I wondered the next year what I wanted to do - and yet again I couldn't not answer. Both of those questions have plagued me ever since.

All I do have is lines of thought in my head that tell me stuff that I don't want to hear, and I'm not typing it up here because it doesn't help, but just imagine the worst things you could say to yourself and then make the language so bad that if you heard those words yourself it would hurt and you might get close.

Its hard to forgive myself when I'm weak because I'm ruled by a load of stuff that makes me think and feel terrible, and when I've messed up so much and wasted so much time and so many opportunities, it feels unforgivable. Plus I'm not impervious to people when they are in the same room and project words and behaviours that feeds right back into all the stuff I've said here.

And the position I personally am in now - and I appreciate that I am not going to be the only one - is one where such a massive percent of the last half of my life (I'm 31) any sense of self identity I've had has been so very bad - and I kinda think "well where do I go from here?" because I can't write off the last decade and a half because it happened and it definitely had its effects - but at the same time I cannot build from that because it's so harmful.

I assume I just have to try and find good things somewhere in me and start again with the whole thing - and I can mildly visualise that to a very minimal extent, in that I see it as a logical possibility - but when I add other people into it, it all comes undone in a heartbeat and the biggest problem is that I don't want to live a life in isolation, I know that there's not much chance of me being the life and soul of a party cuz that definitely isn't me - but to be able to know who I am, and to be myself and not crumble at the slightest thing, and not lose myself because of things that shouldn't affect me - and I can't expect everyone on earth to change for me, so the responsibility is mine - but I really haven't a clue how to change things and it terrifies me how long it could take because I am more than obsessed over the years that I've wasted already.

You said you wanted to find/wake up the little you - I've found bits of the little me - the little me is no more acceptable to me or anyone else than the me now - I hope you are in a position to approach your personal journey in a more positive way than I am so far, because as much as I keep focusing on learning and development I have all this stuff in my head and it cripples me at times, and some days its harder to keep trying - it seems I spend so much time trying and never getting anywhere - the past 10 days or so have been difficult, not because of anything happening - everything has been fine, interactions, I haven't lapsed into depression, and as much as I have been doing numerous things to keep going, I have to acknowledge this stuff because ignoring it isn't working - and its all in me, caused by me, not anyone else. It's actually worse when other people are within the same space as me - and I realise this stuff is depressing me in some ways, but I am calm, I am not deeply depressed right now, I'm not falling to pieces, but its hard to find solutions that feel as though they work, not helped by the stuff in my head that makes me not know if I'm thinking clearly or seeing things in myself as they really are.

Generally speaking I think self identity is a journey we are all on, we might be in different positions in that journey of getting to know oneself, but I am intrigued as to how exactly someone such as myself can move from one position that has been really bad, to another position that isn't. Because at the moment trying to work through the negative stuff, any value I have is like throwing buckets of fresh water into the sea and hoping to change it to fresh water.

karmadestiny · October 22, 2012

I can identify with quite a bit of what Karmadestiny has said, I'm kinda stuck at the moment between my past and now - I'm not sure how to move from the position I have been in, to one that would be more healthy in a number of ways.

A lot of my self-criticism and self hate are related to my lack of self worth - doesn't matter if a hundred people said I was worthy for some reason, I lack the internal feeling, I feel worthless and nothing ever feels like its good enough, I don't apply myself because negative thinking stops me, everything feels pointless and I struggle to see where anything I do fits into the grand scheme of things.

I also lack direction, I don't know what to do or what to aim for, nothing grabs my attention for long, and things that do interest me get twisted in my mind into something negative. I suppose low self-esteem is part of this, and I find that there's so much stuff going on in my mind that it becomes impossible to even think straight at times, I try and do things, things I know I can do quite easily, but all this stuff gets activated and I get swallowed by a load of bad things.

I'm trying to change this, trying to find some sort of value, some sort of self belief, and its so hollow and meaningless, I wonder sometimes if I've been twisted by all this dark, depressive stuff that I've been lost in for so many years, and I guess that's why I get so downhearted and miserable, because I'm trying to learn and change and grow, and its like having black tentacles of evil sucking me into something I can never seem to escape from cuz it just keeps pulling me back.

This all started when I was about 13 and I started questioning who I was - and I didn't have an answer. I wondered the next year what I wanted to do - and yet again I couldn't not answer. Both of those questions have plagued me ever since.

All I do have is lines of thought in my head that tell me stuff that I don't want to hear, and I'm not typing it up here because it doesn't help, but just imagine the worst things you could say to yourself and then make the language so bad that if you heard those words yourself it would hurt and you might get close.

Its hard to forgive myself when I'm weak because I'm ruled by a load of stuff that makes me think and feel terrible, and when I've messed up so much and wasted so much time and so many opportunities, it feels unforgivable. Plus I'm not impervious to people when they are in the same room and project words and behaviours that feeds right back into all the stuff I've said here.

And the position I personally am in now - and I appreciate that I am not going to be the only one - is one where such a massive percent of the last half of my life (I'm 31) any sense of self identity I've had has been so very bad - and I kinda think "well where do I go from here?" because I can't write off the last decade and a half because it happened and it definitely had its effects - but at the same time I cannot build from that because it's so harmful.

I assume I just have to try and find good things somewhere in me and start again with the whole thing - and I can mildly visualise that to a very minimal extent, in that I see it as a logical possibility - but when I add other people into it, it all comes undone in a heartbeat and the biggest problem is that I don't want to live a life in isolation, I know that there's not much chance of me being the life and soul of a party cuz that definitely isn't me - but to be able to know who I am, and to be myself and not crumble at the slightest thing, and not lose myself because of things that shouldn't affect me - and I can't expect everyone on earth to change for me, so the responsibility is mine - but I really haven't a clue how to change things and it terrifies me how long it could take because I am more than obsessed over the years that I've wasted already.

You said you wanted to find/wake up the little you - I've found bits of the little me - the little me is no more acceptable to me or anyone else than the me now - I hope you are in a position to approach your personal journey in a more positive way than I am so far, because as much as I keep focusing on learning and development I have all this stuff in my head and it cripples me at times, and some days its harder to keep trying - it seems I spend so much time trying and never getting anywhere - the past 10 days or so have been difficult, not because of anything happening - everything has been fine, interactions, I haven't lapsed into depression, and as much as I have been doing numerous things to keep going, I have to acknowledge this stuff because ignoring it isn't working - and its all in me, caused by me, not anyone else. It's actually worse when other people are within the same space as me - and I realise this stuff is depressing me in some ways, but I am calm, I am not deeply depressed right now, I'm not falling to pieces, but its hard to find solutions that feel as though they work, not helped by the stuff in my head that makes me not know if I'm thinking clearly or seeing things in myself as they really are.

Generally speaking I think self identity is a journey we are all on, we might be in different positions in that journey of getting to know oneself, but I am intrigued as to how exactly someone such as myself can move from one position that has been really bad, to another position that isn't. Because at the moment trying to work through the negative stuff, any value I have is like throwing buckets of fresh water into the sea and hoping to change it to fresh water.

Darkshine, every word you have written reminds me of a moment or time when I too went through the very same...the road back is hard and one must learn to commit oneself to wanting to bring in those changes that are needed...my mind was fleeting through situations like a runaway train...I had no idea were to even begin my mind was so full, so heavy of 1000 different scenarios coming all at once...I became overly clumsy, forgetful t the point that I would forget the names of people I had known all my life...I couldn't remember the contents of a converation I had with someone a couple of minutes before...I was being called all sorts of names from dozy, to clutterbrains to statements "If it was Yasmin, say no more" smirking and chuckling themselves...As hurtful as being called these names was I knew I had to get grips with reality... So I decided to deal with things one at a time and I knew the very first thing to do was to calm the storm in my mind, clear out the clutter so I can see more vividly what needed tweeking...

I started to meditate, it wasn't easy, there were times I gave up after a few days other days I perservered...my patience was at its lowest point and I wanted quick results, THERE IS NO QUICK ANSWER...The second thing I did was to be very strict in being mindful of the task at hand...This was also very difficult to put into practice...keeping my mind on one thing at a time when hundreds of tasks, feelings, emotions were fleeting past and distracting me was pretty frusterating to say the least...but I kept on telling myself it would be worth it...I knew how important this excercise was if I wanted to put changes into my life and have a life that was fulfilling...these two excercises helped to calm and clear the storm inside my head...Than came the task to face the demons, one by one...and not being afraid to see the wrong choices I had made and their consequences...Taking responsibility for my own action and being at peace with what was out of my hands...

Darkshine, there is so much more but this is enough to see were you may also need to begin...meditate, even if you can for 5 mins a day...be mindful of the task at hand, each time your mind wonders, gently bring it back to the task...hope it helps:)

Sa Skimrande · October 22, 2012

But are we the same person as we have always been ?

Or are we evolving and changing all the time ?

Now there was a time long before this diagnosis where I tried to fit in by emulating key people around me, as really I didn't have a clue, but knew I must fit in to society and it's structures, but typical perhaps it didn't quite work as it is said that although aspies can mimic very well they don't have the understanding that must accompany the copying and with that I am inclined to agree and I have been ostracised on many an occasion thus revealing no matter what I tried I simply did not fit in.

So my next tack was to be an individual and accept the fact I don't fit in and to say this has worked the best it has, but it is a lonely life, but at least I know where I stand on my own and I am not reliant on anyone else for my being and I am totally free to have my own likes and dislikes.

But I am aware I am continuously evolving and this I can see in my wardrobe alone which is mostly black, leather silk and velvet where at one time it was I was ''in armour'' when I went out, leather clad completely but at that time I was shaking off PTSD after a bunch of junkies made an attempt on my life, I was scared to go out in public. But now I don't wear the leather so much as I have calmed down a bit but I still fear people a lot, not individuals, but people in groups as I know what goes on with people that find the need to congregate, they do so for protection, not physical protection but social protection as every group I have observed has it's own hierarchy and that is common in any group be it whatever, sport social, music anything for where people congregate they do so through a pack mentality which is of course ancient and very human.

I as an individual, I am evolving and I am very very aware of it and the thought is common to me, just what will I do next for I can see a future in one respect I am calculating that future and I will get there eventually, but it is a sore pity I cannot use that same energy in other areas of my life, like employment, but perhaps that area is badly damaged, it has to be repaired first before it can evolve, but as a repairman of mechanical things I cannot even think how to go about repairing emotional damage.

raydon · October 22, 2012

But are we the same person as we have always been ?

The genetic make up is the same, so there must be some life long predisposition.

Or are we evolving and changing all the time ?

Yes, I hope so, but I feel some parts of me have not developed enough and I have compensated by using other strategies which were mainly pain avoidance not having the slightest clue as to the root cause. This is where I was up until the realisation (self diagnosis).

Now there was a time long before this diagnosis where I tried to fit in by emulating key people around me, as really I didn't have a clue, but knew I must fit in to society and it's structures, but typical perhaps it didn't quite work as it is said that although aspies can mimic very well they don't have the understanding that must accompany the copying and with that I am inclined to agree and I have been ostracised on many an occasion thus revealing no matter what I tried I simply did not fit in.

So my next tack was to be an individual and accept the fact I don't fit in and to say this has worked the best it has, but it is a lonely life, but at least I know where I stand on my own and I am not reliant on anyone else for my being and I am totally free to have my own likes and dislikes.

But I am aware I am continuously evolving and this I can see in my wardrobe alone which is mostly black, leather silk and velvet where at one time it was I was ''in armour'' when I went out, leather clad completely but at that time I was shaking off PTSD after a bunch of junkies made an attempt on my life, I was scared to go out in public. But now I don't wear the leather so much as I have calmed down a bit but I still fear people a lot, not individuals, but people in groups as I know what goes on with people that find the need to congregate, they do so for protection, not physical protection but social protection as every group I have observed has it's own hierarchy and that is common in any group be it whatever, sport social, music anything for where people congregate they do so through a pack mentality which is of course ancient and very human.

I as an individual, I am evolving and I am very very aware of it and the thought is common to me, just what will I do next for I can see a future in one respect I am calculating that future and I will get there eventually, but it is a sore pity I cannot use that same energy in other areas of my life, like employment, but perhaps that area is badly damaged, it has to be repaired first before it can evolve, but as a repairman of mechanical things I cannot even think how to go about repairing emotional damage.

I think it is a matter of trying to untangle what is actually a direct consequence of AS which I assume is not fixable, and what non productive patterns of behaviour are being used by rote as compensation which could be improved.

My strategy at the moment is to try and reconnect with past events and fathom out whether my response at that time was compensatory or not. Don't know how much mileage there is in it.

Edited October 22, 2012 by raydon

Sa Skimrande · October 22, 2012

I do it too much I know, but the past is just that the past what matters now is what we do in the future and so every new situation that presents itself is a new opportunity to try again, but if we try to apply old method to new problems we shouldn't be surprised if it doesn't work.

Sometimes I think the way forward would be to forget about all this diagnosi that can trap, forget about it's existence and just be, but that's hard.

Sally44 · October 22, 2012

I don't know if this explanation describes what you are talking about in that when you are with others you lose your 'self', or when talking to a relative you cannot remember the family connection.

My explanation is like the circus trick of the man/woman putting spinning plates on top of poles. I think that mainly NT's can have a number of plates spinning at the same time and connect or disconnect them.

What I see with my son, and have also heard a number of other autistic adults talk about, is that they cannot 'split' things. So, for example, Donna Williams talks about being unable to 'hold' in her mind and conscious a feeling of 'self' and also of 'other'. So if she is in a room of 'other' she cannot connect with 'self'. So in a game of tennis [as an example of a life situation], she feels either on one side of the net or the other. She cannot grasp the 'whole tennis court' and 'a two way dialogue of experience', because when she concentrates on what she wants to say or do, she loses the connection to other, and when she is focused on what the 'other' is saying or doing, she is unable to collect herself to respond because she cannot interpret or gather her thoughts or emotions.

Does that ring true with any of you? Because I think I see this happening time and time again with my son.

raydon · October 22, 2012

A lot of my self-criticism and self hate are related to my lack of self worth - doesn't matter if a hundred people said I was worthy for some reason, I lack the internal feeling, I feel worthless and nothing ever feels like its good enough, I don't apply myself because negative thinking stops me, everything feels pointless and I struggle to see where anything I do fits into the grand scheme of things

.

Darkshine, I have to ask, how do you put a value on yourself?

I also lack direction, I don't know what to do or what to aim for, nothing grabs my attention for long, and things that do interest me get twisted in my mind into something negative. I suppose low self-esteem is part of this, and I find that there's so much stuff going on in my mind that it becomes impossible to even think straight at times, I try and do things, things I know I can do quite easily, but all this stuff gets activated and I get swallowed by a load of bad things.

I don't have a definite direction, the choices I make through life will ultimately define me, but it is not possible or even desirable for me to have a route map to follow.

I'm trying to change this, trying to find some sort of value, some sort of self belief, and its so hollow and meaningless, I wonder sometimes if I've been twisted by all this dark, depressive stuff that I've been lost in for so many years, and I guess that's why I get so downhearted and miserable, because I'm trying to learn and change and grow, and its like having black tentacles of evil sucking me into something I can never seem to escape from cuz it just keeps pulling me back.

This all started when I was about 13 and I started questioning who I was - and I didn't have an answer. I wondered the next year what I wanted to do - and yet again I couldn't not answer. Both of those questions have plagued me ever since.

All I do have is lines of thought in my head that tell me stuff that I don't want to hear, and I'm not typing it up here because it doesn't help, but just imagine the worst things you could say to yourself and then make the language so bad that if you heard those words yourself it would hurt and you might get close.

Its hard to forgive myself when I'm weak because I'm ruled by a load of stuff that makes me think and feel terrible, and when I've messed up so much and wasted so much time and so many opportunities, it feels unforgivable. Plus I'm not impervious to people when they are in the same room and project words and behaviours that feeds right back into all the stuff I've said here.

And the position I personally am in now - and I appreciate that I am not going to be the only one - is one where such a massive percent of the last half of my life (I'm 31) any sense of self identity I've had has been so very bad - and I kinda think "well where do I go from here?" because I can't write off the last decade and a half because it happened and it definitely had its effects - but at the same time I cannot build from that because it's so harmful.

I assume I just have to try and find good things somewhere in me and start again with the whole thing - and I can mildly visualise that to a very minimal extent, in that I see it as a logical possibility - but when I add other people into it, it all comes undone in a heartbeat and the biggest problem is that I don't want to live a life in isolation, I know that there's not much chance of me being the life and soul of a party cuz that definitely isn't me - but to be able to know who I am, and to be myself and not crumble at the slightest thing, and not lose myself because of things that shouldn't affect me - and I can't expect everyone on earth to change for me, so the responsibility is mine - but I really haven't a clue how to change things and it terrifies me how long it could take because I am more than obsessed over the years that I've wasted already.

You said you wanted to find/wake up the little you - I've found bits of the little me - the little me is no more acceptable to me or anyone else than the me now - I hope you are in a position to approach your personal journey in a more positive way than I am so far, because as much as I keep focusing on learning and development I have all this stuff in my head and it cripples me at times, and some days its harder to keep trying - it seems I spend so much time trying and never getting anywhere - the past 10 days or so have been difficult, not because of anything happening - everything has been fine, interactions, I haven't lapsed into depression, and as much as I have been doing numerous things to keep going, I have to acknowledge this stuff because ignoring it isn't working - and its all in me, caused by me, not anyone else. It's actually worse when other people are within the same space as me - and I realise this stuff is depressing me in some ways, but I am calm, I am not deeply depressed right now, I'm not falling to pieces, but its hard to find solutions that feel as though they work, not helped by the stuff in my head that makes me not know if I'm thinking clearly or seeing things in myself as they really are.

Generally speaking I think self identity is a journey we are all on, we might be in different positions in that journey of getting to know oneself, but I am intrigued as to how exactly someone such as myself can move from one position that has been really bad, to another position that isn't. Because at the moment trying to work through the negative stuff, any value I have is like throwing buckets of fresh water into the sea and hoping to change it to fresh water.

I have been through what you are describing, I would say alot of the big questions you are asking yourself need to be put on the back burner.

What is the meaning of life? Where do I fit into the grand scheme of things?

Don't try and sort out the whole picture in one go, no one on earth has done that!

Try and ring fence small areas and work on them individually. I try and keep things as simple as possible,

My self belief is that I will be alive tomorrow and I trust myself with that. I'm not trying to change the world, if I can make just one person feel better or smile it will have a knock on effect.

raydon · October 22, 2012

I don't know if this explanation describes what you are talking about in that when you are with others you lose your 'self', or when talking to a relative you cannot remember the family connection.

My explanation is like the circus trick of the man/woman putting spinning plates on top of poles. I think that mainly NT's can have a number of plates spinning at the same time and connect or disconnect them.

What I see with my son, and have also heard a number of other autistic adults talk about, is that they cannot 'split' things. So, for example, Donna Williams talks about being unable to 'hold' in her mind and conscious a feeling of 'self' and also of 'other'. So if she is in a room of 'other' she cannot connect with 'self'. So in a game of tennis [as an example of a life situation], she feels either on one side of the net or the other. She cannot grasp the 'whole tennis court' and 'a two way dialogue of experience', because when she concentrates on what she wants to say or do, she loses the connection to other, and when she is focused on what the 'other' is saying or doing, she is unable to collect herself to respond because she cannot interpret or gather her thoughts or emotions.

Does that ring true with any of you? Because I think I see this happening time and time again with my son.

Yes, I can only focus on one thing at a time. A good example is when I am driving, I have a good spatial awareness of the road and traffic but I cannot talk at the same time, If someone does speak to me I lose concentration on the road and forget where I am.driving to. Missed many a turning because of that! :huh:

Not always, but often, when I speak I lose a sense that it is actually me speaking, and sometimes end up not even knowing what I am saying. It's like there are a lot of thoughts going on, but only one can come out of my mouth and I lose track of which thought process has made it to the surface. While grappling with this, the other person is now replying and I'm scrambling to find which thought process they are responding to. It's tiring just thinking about it!

I can time manage OK as long as I know the length of each process, so I'm not sure about the plates analogy, I would see the 10 plates as one mechanism and keep them all spinning, but I couldn't talk at the same time.

Thanks that's very interesting. Who is Donna Williams?

.

darkshine · October 22, 2012

Darkshine, every word you have written reminds me of a moment or time when I too went through the very same...the road back is hard and one must learn to commit oneself to wanting to bring in those changes that are needed...

I think a large part of my problem is that I've never experienced any different, my childhood, my adolescence, it all carried the same messages, so I need a road forwards perhaps.

All the stuff with the runaway mind and everything, that stuff is a lot better, and the negative things in my mind are scary to me because they aren't racing thoughts and stuff, its solid beliefs that I just seem to be unable to do much about them.

I do see progress, and being mindful is a good thing, I feel as though it all gets polluted by the stuff in my mind - I don't know if that makes sense?

Darkshine, there is so much more but this is enough to see were you may also need to begin...meditate, even if you can for 5 mins a day...be mindful of the task at hand, each time your mind wonders, gently bring it back to the task...hope it helps:)

I'm lousy at meditating in the deep breathing centre your mind type way, I'm just too impatient or maybe something else - I'm not sure - the idea has always held an appeal and I've tried extensively at it but usually the main feeling I felt was anger - I'm not sure why - sometimes it would just irritate me.

I find the closest I can get is by doing certain things, listening to certain songs, having a certain type of bath, going for a walk by myself somewhere quiet, being still - I find this comes close to meditation but even so, its a bit like stepping out of a rave into a soundproof booth for a short time and then stepping back into the rave - it makes me tense as hell.

Thank you for your advice, it gives me hope that life will not always be this way knowing that others have experienced similar things and found ways to not let that stuff rules their lives

.........................................................................................................................

Darkshine, I have to ask, how do you put a value on yourself?

I don't know, all I do know is that I don't want to feel worthless any more and I wish there were more things of value in my life, and that things I do would have value of some kind.

I've spent so much of my life giving everything I have spare to others, I've helped other people in so many ways, but I seem less able to find that energy for myself because I don't think I'm worth it.

I don't have a definite direction, the choices I make through life will ultimately define me, but it is not possible or even desirable for me to have a route map to follow.

I understand that as much as I may wish to predict the future - that isn't possible - and I'm not concerned about that - but I've wasted half my life and I don't want to waste more, and I've just been a waster going nowhere and getting essentially nowhere - I really want to have some direction, I don't need a map, just something to aim for that makes sense to me, something that grabs me and that gives me a feeling of meaning, something to work towards and hope for, something where I can look and see whether I'm getting closer instead of this infernal vagueness that gets me nowhere I guess.

I have been through what you are describing, I would say alot of the big questions you are asking yourself need to be put on the back burner.

What is the meaning of life? Where do I fit into the grand scheme of things?

Don't try and sort out the whole picture in one go, no one on earth has done that!

Try and ring fence small areas and work on them individually. I try and keep things as simple as possible,

My self belief is that I will be alive tomorrow and I trust myself with that. I'm not trying to change the world, if I can make just one person feel better or smile it will have a knock on effect.

I can put the big questions like that aside, but on a personal level I want to address things so that everything isn't tainted by negativity.

The biggest problem is I'm lying to myself and I don't know which part of myself is real - everything inside me tells me that I should not be alive, it tells me that I am nothing, I don't deserve to waste the precious air and space in the world.

But I couldn't do anything about that stuff, so I've tried to find meaning instead, something to live for, something to be alive for, something that can give me what I lack inside because I cannot truly live while I want to die - so I seek value, I try to address my beliefs, I try to improve myself through learning and trying to understand why things are as they are and to see what I can do about it.

For so many years of my life I have given - now I think I'm allowed to explore these things for myself - that is hard for me because I have that belief that I'm not worth it - so i try to counter it by finding small elements of value within me - maybe stuff like "I've helped people" or whatever...

Dunno... I'm not even sure if its working - all I do know is that I can't ignore things and I can't repress them, so I try to face that stuff... but I find that I am wandering around, I'm going in circles, I'm slipping backwards and I don't know where I want to go or what I want to do and that is really making me miserable because I'm not keen on wandering around in a fog and I know from 10 years of past experience that things aren't just gonna land in my lap - I have to go out and get them - but if I don't know what I'm going to look for then I don't know where to start.

raydon · October 22, 2012

Darkshine, I have to ask, how do you put a value on yourself?

I don't know, all I do know is that I don't want to feel worthless any more and I wish there were more things of value in my life, and that things I do would have value of some kind.

If you don't know how to value yourself, how can you say you are worthless? Maybe that's the wrong word to be using.

Positive thoughts can't exist without negative ones.

darkshine · October 23, 2012

This is all going to be so flawed, but I knew that before I ever decided to say a word in this post - and in the past I would have just turned away from this because that would be easier - but its flawed, and I know it, and I don't know what to do about it...

If you don't know how to value yourself, how can you say you are worthless? Maybe that's the wrong word to be using.

You know what? That's an interesting question because I do know how convince myself of the opposite, so I learned how to do this one way but not the other.

To put it better:

I struggle to find and maintain positive value within myself, when my experiences and interactions, mixed with my thoughts, feelings and beliefs make me feel as though I have no value.

To be honest the word value isn't something I'm wanting to get stuck on, it has other connotations to it that I find to be inaccurate, yet I am unable to think of another word, and 'value' is something that is only one part of a much bigger picture, yet it has effects throughout other areas of my life.

For example, there are some things I value outside of myself, yet I am technically a part of those things but that gets pushed aside by the thoughts I have and its difficult - but I value a friend I talk to, this comes in many forms because those interactions are meaningful to me, I cannot put an actual value on it like a price, this isn't like an auction or something, and also because in so many ways it is priceless and means so much to me.

In terms of the value of that friendship, there's a cost to me if it ended, I'd be devastated not just because I am given so much - which I am, but because of so many other things like feeling able to talk about anything, the way I think of things I haven't thought of that are interesting, because we share experiences, ideas, stories, plans, pleasure, pain and meaning, to be able to care about someone and having someone care back - about big things and small things and every day things, to care what someone feels and know they do too. To work together in an honest and open way, to give and receive and have some level of equality despite numerous differences. To teach and be taught and learn together and have mutual respect, to add something important that was missing that comes through an understanding on a deeper level, and share thoughts that enhance that understanding, and to know someone in a way that is different because it doesn't need words to define the knowing.

And that's not even half of it - and technically everything should be fine then - but I worry about what I can do, and I fret that I'm not good enough, I don't know what I add, or why someone would like me, I get upset that I feel that way, and then all these other thoughts come in to it and make it very hard to just 'be' and not have to think about this stuff because the other thoughts are worse and its like self sabotage. And also to be able to truly be myself yet fail to do so in other situations because people in other situations make me question who I am in a totally different way, cuz with the friend it is neutral or positive but also critical and thoughtful - but with other people or just when I'm on my own it gets very very negative very easily.

And in this example of friendship I have to fight against every single one of those thoughts and feelings because it matters so much to me.

So the key flaws.

1. I can find value

2. There is value in my life

So maybe the more accurate version of the problem is that I have this stuff in my head that tries to wreck it all in some way and its like there is a part of me that sees something good and sets out to destroy it - yet its me that does that - and the rest of me doesn't want to destroy something that means so much and that creates a conflict - and in that sense it doesn't matter whether its value or anything else because this self-destruct process occurs so often, and if I can't focus that on anyone else so I attack myself instead.

I don't know how to stop that from happening, and in that sense it isn't just value that is the problem, its all the other stuff I said before about emotions and thoughts, beliefs and self-esteem, not being able to find a point to things or knowing what to do. And not knowing how to cope with the internal conflict and the negativity is a big problem because any sense of self I have is so split up and messy.

LancsLad · October 23, 2012

Darkshine we need to keep things in perspective. Sometimes its not easy to see where we are in the journey hope this helps a bit guys;

coldn't put it any better.

karmadestiny · October 23, 2012

Darkshine we need to keep things in perspective. Sometimes its not easy to see where we are in the journey hope this helps a bit guys;

coldn't put it any better.

I think that says it all!....Thank you for putting this video up Lancslad...sometimes we lose sight of the shore because we're so caught up in our own world...

karmadestiny · October 23, 2012

This is all going to be so flawed, but I knew that before I ever decided to say a word in this post - and in the past I would have just turned away from this because that would be easier - but its flawed, and I know it, and I don't know what to do about it...

You know what? That's an interesting question because I do know how convince myself of the opposite, so I learned how to do this one way but not the other.

To put it better:

I struggle to find and maintain positive value within myself, when my experiences and interactions, mixed with my thoughts, feelings and beliefs make me feel as though I have no value.

To be honest the word value isn't something I'm wanting to get stuck on, it has other connotations to it that I find to be inaccurate, yet I am unable to think of another word, and 'value' is something that is only one part of a much bigger picture, yet it has effects throughout other areas of my life.

For example, there are some things I value outside of myself, yet I am technically a part of those things but that gets pushed aside by the thoughts I have and its difficult - but I value a friend I talk to, this comes in many forms because those interactions are meaningful to me, I cannot put an actual value on it like a price, this isn't like an auction or something, and also because in so many ways it is priceless and means so much to me.

In terms of the value of that friendship, there's a cost to me if it ended, I'd be devastated not just because I am given so much - which I am, but because of so many other things like feeling able to talk about anything, the way I think of things I haven't thought of that are interesting, because we share experiences, ideas, stories, plans, pleasure, pain and meaning, to be able to care about someone and having someone care back - about big things and small things and every day things, to care what someone feels and know they do too. To work together in an honest and open way, to give and receive and have some level of equality despite numerous differences. To teach and be taught and learn together and have mutual respect, to add something important that was missing that comes through an understanding on a deeper level, and share thoughts that enhance that understanding, and to know someone in a way that is different because it doesn't need words to define the knowing.

And that's not even half of it - and technically everything should be fine then - but I worry about what I can do, and I fret that I'm not good enough, I don't know what I add, or why someone would like me, I get upset that I feel that way, and then all these other thoughts come in to it and make it very hard to just 'be' and not have to think about this stuff because the other thoughts are worse and its like self sabotage. And also to be able to truly be myself yet fail to do so in other situations because people in other situations make me question who I am in a totally different way, cuz with the friend it is neutral or positive but also critical and thoughtful - but with other people or just when I'm on my own it gets very very negative very easily.

And in this example of friendship I have to fight against every single one of those thoughts and feelings because it matters so much to me.

So the key flaws.

1. I can find value

2. There is value in my life

So maybe the more accurate version of the problem is that I have this stuff in my head that tries to wreck it all in some way and its like there is a part of me that sees something good and sets out to destroy it - yet its me that does that - and the rest of me doesn't want to destroy something that means so much and that creates a conflict - and in that sense it doesn't matter whether its value or anything else because this self-destruct process occurs so often, and if I can't focus that on anyone else so I attack myself instead.

I don't know how to stop that from happening, and in that sense it isn't just value that is the problem, its all the other stuff I said before about emotions and thoughts, beliefs and self-esteem, not being able to find a point to things or knowing what to do. And not knowing how to cope with the internal conflict and the negativity is a big problem because any sense of self I have is so split up and messy.

Darkshine, you are the only person who can break the self distructive cycle and decide to walk off the emotional rollercoaster...but it has to begin with you wanting to do this whole heartedly...It WILL happen, beleive me, when you've really had enough and don't want anymore of this, you will decide not to entertain the old ways any longer...Its a split second desicion that will place you on the road back to the real you...It will give you the courage, the strength and the knowhow of were to begin and how to progress...We are all individuals what works for one may not work for the other, or even as in my case what works once may not work the next time but I have learnt to utilise everything that feels right for me...and I chop and change to what FEELS right...Have faith in your self and your own abilities to know what is right...listen to your conscience it will guide you....CONSCIENCE IS ROOT OF ALL TRUE COURAGE, IF A MAN WOULD BE BRAVE LET HIM OBEY HIS CONSCIENCE....Listen to that little inner voice inside you, it is never wrong...Listen to the sensations in your body, on how it reacts when you decide on something....listen to your heart but always use logic to balance and weigh things up...Balance is the key....In the beginning you will walk one step forwards two steps back but don't give up, keep walking and soon you will find yourself walking off into the sunset, No more resistence, no more self distructive and self limiting thoughts, FREE to be YOu!...

raydon · October 23, 2012

Very good LancsLad, thanks.

I often think of myself as a cork bobbing in the ocean and I have learned to trust that I will stay afloat, for that you don't actually need a direction, just as those rowers trust the boat with their own lives. Removing that doubt is a key to lifting depression, you stop asking those energy draining questions of "why am I alive?" etc and accept "Yes, I am alive and will be tomorrow". Then as Karmadestiny says "Live your own truth" from there on everything is relative and no one is perfect.

I wonder, had they not had GPS and radio communication would the outcome still have been the same?

Edited October 23, 2012 by raydon

LancsLad · October 23, 2012

Personally I think the answer is yes. If we really look at ourselves the right answers are there all along we just have to trust our gut instincts and when we have to we simply commit, we dont question we just do what we have to do. When they had to they simply put their backs into it and rowed.

It think for sure once they knew they had that advantage all they had to do was match the efforts of everyone else and they knew they would win. I think there is an important lesson there as well. When we commit to soemthing and make progress we have to be prepared to fight hard to keep those gains. You also have to remain focused on the long term aim what is the reward at the end of the race, they didn't pick the trophy up at the end of the storm rather there was still a job to do.

I think if we are not the racing type then when storms do come along in our life putting our sea anchors is a good idea. We can ride out storms in that way we don't have to go back to the start line every time. I think a lot of the time people simply don't have a strategy and as a result they do get thrown around and just try to stay upright.

In my own life I know that when storms do come along and they do that is the time to get down and really start to work hard, to think through a strategy and commit to it 100%. A lot of the time the strategy might not be perfect and there will be a few scary moments along the way but we learn in those times as well which is important. Storms always pass, there might be a few repairs to do afterwards but we sail on in life and continue the journey. The other option of course is to buy a boat find a safe mooring in a harbour and stay put and treat it as a symbol of who we are. Personally I always found yachts to offer a lot more possibilities than that just so long as we are prepared to take them out to sea and into the oceans that are life.

raydon · October 23, 2012

This is all going to be so flawed, but I knew that before I ever decided to say a word in this post - and in the past I would have just turned away from this because that would be easier - but its flawed, and I know it, and I don't know what to do about it...

You know what? That's an interesting question because I do know how convince myself of the opposite, so I learned how to do this one way but not the other.

To put it better:

I struggle to find and maintain positive value within myself, when my experiences and interactions, mixed with my thoughts, feelings and beliefs make me feel as though I have no value.

To be honest the word value isn't something I'm wanting to get stuck on, it has other connotations to it that I find to be inaccurate, yet I am unable to think of another word, and 'value' is something that is only one part of a much bigger picture, yet it has effects throughout other areas of my life.

For example, there are some things I value outside of myself, yet I am technically a part of those things but that gets pushed aside by the thoughts I have and its difficult - but I value a friend I talk to, this comes in many forms because those interactions are meaningful to me, I cannot put an actual value on it like a price, this isn't like an auction or something, and also because in so many ways it is priceless and means so much to me.

In terms of the value of that friendship, there's a cost to me if it ended, I'd be devastated not just because I am given so much - which I am, but because of so many other things like feeling able to talk about anything, the way I think of things I haven't thought of that are interesting, because we share experiences, ideas, stories, plans, pleasure, pain and meaning, to be able to care about someone and having someone care back - about big things and small things and every day things, to care what someone feels and know they do too. To work together in an honest and open way, to give and receive and have some level of equality despite numerous differences. To teach and be taught and learn together and have mutual respect, to add something important that was missing that comes through an understanding on a deeper level, and share thoughts that enhance that understanding, and to know someone in a way that is different because it doesn't need words to define the knowing.

And that's not even half of it - and technically everything should be fine then - but I worry about what I can do, and I fret that I'm not good enough, I don't know what I add, or why someone would like me, I get upset that I feel that way, and then all these other thoughts come in to it and make it very hard to just 'be' and not have to think about this stuff because the other thoughts are worse and its like self sabotage. And also to be able to truly be myself yet fail to do so in other situations because people in other situations make me question who I am in a totally different way, cuz with the friend it is neutral or positive but also critical and thoughtful - but with other people or just when I'm on my own it gets very very negative very easily.

And in this example of friendship I have to fight against every single one of those thoughts and feelings because it matters so much to me.

So the key flaws.

1. I can find value

2. There is value in my life

So maybe the more accurate version of the problem is that I have this stuff in my head that tries to wreck it all in some way and its like there is a part of me that sees something good and sets out to destroy it - yet its me that does that - and the rest of me doesn't want to destroy something that means so much and that creates a conflict - and in that sense it doesn't matter whether its value or anything else because this self-destruct process occurs so often, and if I can't focus that on anyone else so I attack myself instead.

I don't know how to stop that from happening, and in that sense it isn't just value that is the problem, its all the other stuff I said before about emotions and thoughts, beliefs and self-esteem, not being able to find a point to things or knowing what to do. And not knowing how to cope with the internal conflict and the negativity is a big problem because any sense of self I have is so split up and messy.

Of course it's flawed, and I'm glad you are able to talk about it. Perfection is an unobtainable illusion, so is 1 divided by 0.

As for your friendship issues, is this friendship you describe real or imaginery? It sounds very idealistic.

I strikes me that you are trying to reach unobtainably high standards and then fearing failure. It's like trying to race against Usain Bolt without practising. You can still run at a lower level and enjoy it.

raydon · October 23, 2012

Personally I think the answer is yes. If we really look at ourselves the right answers are there all along we just have to trust our gut instincts and when we have to we simply commit, we dont question we just do what we have to do. When they had to they simply put their backs into it and rowed.

It think for sure once they knew they had that advantage all they had to do was match the efforts of everyone else and they knew they would win. I think there is an important lesson there as well. When we commit to soemthing and make progress we have to be prepared to fight hard to keep those gains. You also have to remain focused on the long term aim what is the reward at the end of the race, they didn't pick the trophy up at the end of the storm rather there was still a job to do.

I think if we are not the racing type then when storms do come along in our life putting our sea anchors is a good idea. We can ride out storms in that way we don't have to go back to the start line every time. I think a lot of the time people simply don't have a strategy and as a result they do get thrown around and just try to stay upright.

In my own life I know that when storms do come along and they do that is the time to get down and really start to work hard, to think through a strategy and commit to it 100%. A lot of the time the strategy might not be perfect and there will be a few scary moments along the way but we learn in those times as well which is important. Storms always pass, there might be a few repairs to do afterwards but we sail on in life and continue the journey. The other option of course is to buy a boat find a safe mooring in a harbour and stay put and treat it as a symbol of who we are. Personally I always found yachts to offer a lot more possibilities than that just so long as we are prepared to take them out to sea and into the oceans that are life.

I also think they would have won, but the reassurance must have helped.

I tend to hunker down in storms and I feel I have got through life OK using my hands, but sensing there was a hole in the boat, but not knowing where, spent a lot of time bailing out.

darkshine · October 23, 2012

Darkshine, you are the only person who can break the self distructive cycle and decide to walk off the emotional rollercoaster...but it has to begin with you wanting to do this whole heartedly...It WILL happen, beleive me, when you've really had enough and don't want anymore of this, you will decide not to entertain the old ways any longer...Its a split second desicion that will place you on the road back to the real you...It will give you the courage, the strength and the knowhow of were to begin and how to progress...We are all individuals what works for one may not work for the other, or even as in my case what works once may not work the next time but I have learnt to utilise everything that feels right for me...and I chop and change to what FEELS right...Have faith in your self and your own abilities to know what is right...listen to your conscience it will guide you....CONSCIENCE IS ROOT OF ALL TRUE COURAGE, IF A MAN WOULD BE BRAVE LET HIM OBEY HIS CONSCIENCE....Listen to that little inner voice inside you, it is never wrong...Listen to the sensations in your body, on how it reacts when you decide on something....listen to your heart but always use logic to balance and weigh things up...Balance is the key....In the beginning you will walk one step forwards two steps back but don't give up, keep walking and soon you will find yourself walking off into the sunset, No more resistence, no more self distructive and self limiting thoughts, FREE to be YOu!...

Thank you (again lol) not only for your words of advice, they strike me as honest and meaningful and what you say makes sense, and I also appreciate your words of guidance, I'm starting to hear my inner voice and listen to what all those things tell me - I think that balance is the problem I'm having in that respect but as time goes on, I seem to balance a little better and fall over a lot less - if I reflect on that I do see an improvement - I think my impatience is not helpful with a lot of this stuff.

Darkshine we need to keep things in perspective. Sometimes its not easy to see where we are in the journey hope this helps a bit guys;

I do find it helpful

As for your friendship issues, is this friendship you describe real or imaginery? It sounds very idealistic.

It's real, but I do not describe something I believe is perfection to everyone, maybe to me perfection is a rusty old car that is mean to drive and doesn't lose its vale - maybe perfection to you would be a monster truck or a jaguar, so an all encompassing perfection wouldn't sound right or feel right, but maybe to me it is some sort of perfection purely because it is flawed, because aren't we all flawed?

So is my description idealistic - it depends what your version of idealistic is, maybe what I describe fits into your ideals too...

I strikes me that you are trying to reach unobtainably high standards and then fearing failure. It's like trying to race against Usain Bolt without practising. You can still run at a lower level and enjoy it.

Do you mean I am trying to reach unobtainable high standards with this particular friendship or with everything else?

In life I admit it is a problem at times.

In this friendship it isn't a factor because it isn't high standards (obtainable or otherwise) that is the problem, it isn't even something that crosses my mind until my own self-doubt and negativity steps in and adds uncertainty and worry and stuff.

Edited October 23, 2012 by darkshine

Sally44 · October 24, 2012

This is the link to Donna Williams website. http://www.donnawilliams.net/

I found her explanations of how she experiences things fitted some of the things my son was telling me. Because obviously, although there maybe similar 'areas' of difficulty for those on the spectrum - how those present in an individual can be at completely different ends of the scale.

So I found it useful to look at a number of different adults with an ASD and see what they were saying about their experiences.

Sally44 · October 24, 2012

What really helped me, when I had some email correspondence with her about my son. Was that she was the first person to say "don't keep interrupting his train of thought or focus". Because what usually happened, was that my son would be doing something and someone would ask him "what are you doing", which is when he would get immediately upset, tantrum and accuse the person of 'destroying' whatever he was doing and he would say "now I have to start all over again."

So this direct "back and forth" of dialogue was too difficult for him when a toddler.

What Donna suggested, and what worked, was to sit alongside him and 'comment' using one word, on what he was doing. So if he was making a lego model of a spaceship, I would just sit beside him quietly and watch for a while and then say "spaceship", and in that way he could agree, or give me details about what he was doing, or correct me. But, somehow, that 'parallel' approach, seemed to keep him connected to what he was doing and also to include me. Sounds very simply, but is actually quite hard to do. But the most important thing is that that approach worked.

raydon · October 24, 2012

What really helped me, when I had some email correspondence with her about my son. Was that she was the first person to say "don't keep interrupting his train of thought or focus". Because what usually happened, was that my son would be doing something and someone would ask him "what are you doing", which is when he would get immediately upset, tantrum and accuse the person of 'destroying' whatever he was doing and he would say "now I have to start all over again."

I can understand that, when I am working on something there is a visual construct in my mind which is built up step by step from the start. This can go on for hours and the construct can get incredibly complex. If I'm interupted unexpectedly that construct in my mind vanishes and I literally have to start from scratch to build it up again. It's the equivalent in computer terms to be working in volatile memory, it's fast and intense. I found that if I was given a few minutes warning I could prepare to stop at a suitable place. That time also allows the construct to be turned into a more stable form of image which can then be recalled. The equivalent of copying from volatile to non volatile memory. I hope that makes sense.

As a parent it must be difficult, mine just left me to get on with it. I think your approach is good because you are actually maintaining contact with your son.

Edited October 24, 2012 by raydon

smileyK · October 27, 2012

ive always found this sensitive emotive topic issue that keeps circling and arising cropping back to haunt me each time really! As feel dont belong anywhere fit just somewhere in middle floating around! Of who i am which very confusiong muddling and messes your head right up to point feeling lost and confused in it all not knowing how deal with it! t i read books to help me discover more meaning of background of understanding and knowledge trying to comment with myself more in way which positive and successful together not easy to do! As is often connected linked with self esteem and confidence which major baattle inner demon challenge on its own to face head on! Go up agaisnt! :c

smileyK · October 27, 2012

it so frustrating trying to work it out maybe i going about it in all wrong ways as usual! But suppose is no real answer or right or wrong way! Suppose it down to person! But i also know life experiences also play a big part high impact on the survival of your identity of how inntact it is!

smileyK · October 27, 2012

maybe i should stop trying so hard and trying work things out analyse myself and just go with flow naturally! Maybe then will fall into place without effort! Or maybe effort is needed for it to be in existence!

raydon · October 27, 2012

maybe i should stop trying so hard and trying work things out analyse myself and just go with flow naturally! Maybe then will fall into place without effort! Or maybe effort is needed for it to be in existence!

Over analysis can really slow you down. I would say go with the flow, work with your strengths and enjoy that, don't ignore your weaknesses, but accept them, work on them gently, and don't beat yourself up over mistakes or failings. It's a life long quest, so don't expect answers tomorrow, but by doing what you feel is right at the time, that's your direction. You will get stuck sometimes, go back to square one and go round in circles, if it happens too many times that's when to change, try something new, it's not easy, I know.

I've come to the conclusion, I can't actually know myself, I change with time and I am far more complex than just my intellect. The most important thing is self trust, from that comes confidence and self esteem.

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A lack of self identity

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