Social skills training

[Tez]

Lucas wrote in another post

"one piece of advice I can give without hesitation as to wether it may only be right for some or may be wrong is this: resist all attempts people make to try to teach Autistic people 'social skills'.

 

There is a world of difference between social skills and manners, I learned this at residential school as it was run by a very posh headmaster who understood that those with any communication problem are baffled by ignorant people who try to blur the line between social skills and good manners."

 

I'm trying to clarify my thoughts on social skills training prior to a meeting with the LEA tomorrow regarding A's proposed statement. There is a section on social stories and social skills training that we are in dispute over. I am clear on my reaction to the social stories, I am less clear on my response to the social skills training.

 

There is currently a lot of emphasis on social skills training for children on the spectrum, but is this necessarily the right thing for those who have good manners, who do adhere to the prescribed social rules such as focusing on what a person is saying, asking and responding to questions, keeping conversation relevant but are still marginalised because they appear odd, are too well behaved and due to sensory issues and prosopagnosia will never be able to attain the non-verbal skills that others take for granted such as picking up on the subtle non-verbal cues others give off? To what extent can social skills training even help if it is actually adhering to the rules of social conduct that is part of the problem, we all know that if you analyse what the most popular children do, they rarely follow the rules that social skills training focus on? Can social skills training help a child who is severely bullied if he already knows how to be assertive without being aggressive but is still victimised because there are some real thugs in the school who know that he will be unable to identify them and so they will get off scott free?

 

If a child has got their own small group of very loyal friends who genuinely like him and seek out his company and has no desire to have a wider circle of acquaintances is there anything to gain by allowing them to have social skills training that they are adamant they will not attend? I actually believe that A has quite a clear social understanding of the school environment and that he is pretty clear about the accepted rules of social conduct, where he is unclear is when it is more acceptable to break the rules than to stick to them, although he has learnt to keep his mouth shut about other's rule breaking.

 

I think I feel that by focusing on what he doesn't do right and can't correct (his eye contact, his intonation, his facial expression for example) he will be made even more self-conscious so instead of putting him more at ease in a social situation it will put him on edge. If he can't be himself, and is uncomfortable with what he is trying to be, how can he benefit from any social situation, what enjoyment will he get out of it? I think I think that the focus of attention shouldn't be on A's social skills but the inappropriate behaviour of the bullies but I'm not sure that I'm fully understanding what benefits A might gain from this type of training.

 

Has anyone any experience or opinions of social skills training for passive, well behaved teenagers with severe sensory problems and a total inability to recognise faces who can give me the pros and cons on this?

[bid]

Hi Tez

 

I think good manners are important for all of us...

 

As for 'social skills training'...well, as someone who has spent nearly 40 years 'pretending to be normal', I can tell you that you are still the same person with AS inside

 

I'm not trying to be unhelpful, but I'm not sure teaching someone to internalise things is necessarily a good thing

 

These are only my thoughts...

 

Bid

[Tez]

Thank you Bid,

 

They are my thoughts too but I'd like to hear from others what their opinions are. I'd like to hear both sides of the coin even if it is only someone playing devil's advocate because I really can't understand why the LEA are so insistent that this paragraph stays in the statement,other than they are not understanding the situation.

[Zemanski]

it depends what the social skills training entails to some extent - some is rule based but a lot focuses on things like just understanding your own and others feelings a bit better and being able to develop strategies for things like asking for help, rebutting coersion, etc.

 

I actually went to a social skills training group with Com for the first time today (he usually goes with his LSA but he was excluded yesterday) and it was brilliant.

 

5 boys, three ASD specialists, 3 LSAs and me.

 

We all had lunch and just chatted - there were optical illusions out on the table which helped focus the conversation plus a couple of the boys had brought things to show.

 

Then the group & therapists gathered round another table and helpers sat just outside the group (they don't always stay apparently). The boys filled in a worksheet about how they feel about things like snow or football ....... and discussed all the different points of view they'd come up with. That was followed by some perspective based artwork, some roleplay about different points of view and a couple of other activities.

 

The boys were animated and interested, they were encouraged to express themselves but not forced, they were allowed to get sidetracked if their conversation veered off as long as they were enjoying the conversation and they were allowed to play. Although there were specific social skills being taught I would say that most of the value was in 5 boys with AS having a really good time interacting with peers. They were really noisy, which I was amazed by, I knew Com was but even the lad who didn't talk for the first part joined in in the end. Com was almost as confident there as he is at home which is very rare.

 

I suppose it didn't much bother me what the point of the group was, it was a chance for Com to relax and enjoy being with a group of people - a rare treat for him, especially as part of the school day.

 

I was definitely impressed, I want to go too .

 

Zemanski

Edited February 2, 2006 by Zemanski

[Canopus]

There used to be SEN residential schools that focussed almost entirely on social skills training sessions and provided little in the way of an academic education. I don't know much about what went on in these places or whether they tended to take kids with AS/ASD or NT kids with EBD. Some teachers at my school condemned the practices of these schools and claimed that kids turn out worse than when they started. They mentioned something about training kids to deal with difficult and obnoxious people such as yobs and thugs.

 

My school focussed on academic lessons and had no social skills training sessions. The philosophy of the staff was that the behaviour of kids would improve by default given the strict discipline of the institution. Quite often kids with AS would learn the hard way as they were expected to take subtle hints and pick up social cues by default otherwise they would either be punished by the staff or bullied by other kids.

[Zemanski]

Com gets 2 hours a week which doesn't cut into his academic learning and as he enjoys it so much I think it's time well spent.

 

different children have different needs but no child should be taught social skills or manners by bullying and sanction.

 

If I ever decide to send Com to a residential school I will PM you for the name of the school you went to first, Canopus, so I can make sure I don't send him there

 

Zemanski

[Tez]

Zemanski,

 

Thank you it's useful to know what actually happens at these sessions.

 

Then the group & therapists gathered round another table and helpers sat just outside the group (they don't always stay apparently). The boys filled in a worksheet about how they feel about things like snow or football ....... and discussed all the different points of view they'd come up with. That was followed by some perspective based artwork, some roleplay about different points of view and a couple of other activities.

 

The boys were animated and interested, they were encouraged to express themselves but not forced, they were allowed to get sidetracked if their conversation veered off as long as they were enjoying the conversation and they were allowed to play. Although there were specific social skills being taught I would say that most of the value was in 5 boys with AS having a really good time interacting with peers. They were really noisy, which I was amazed by, I knew Com was but even the lad who didn't talk for the first part joined in in the end. Com was almost as confident there as he is at home which is very rare.

 

It's clear to me that A's sensory problems are so severe that he couldn't even cope with the arrangements of the session. There is no way that he could cope with being around a table with 7 other people in close proximity and if they were really loud as well he'd have shut down inside of the first 5 minutes.

[LizK]

I know someone who helps run social skills groups for 12-14 yr olds with AS and sicne my son has had a diagnosis I've been more interested to hear about how the groups are run. Both parents and children attend and is generally well received with a long waiting list of people clamouring to go on them. The parents and kids do different things and my friend helps run the kids group. They sound run on lines similar to how Zemanski described with role play, interactive group work and discussion of situations they might find themselves in eg bullying, issues around sexuality, interviews, further education etc It's not about forcing them to appear 'normal' but more equipping them to cope better with. From listening to my friend talk it sounds like the biggest positive though is the chance for the teens to meet other children who think similarly to them in a situation where they can be themselves and gives them the opportunity for friendships to develop. He says seeing the teens who often haven't got many friends interact and relate to each other is one of the best aspects.

 

Lx

[oracle]

I am going to stick my head on the chopping block here and say that what I believe is important is that my boys feel comfortable in a social situation. But more importantly I want them to be in that social situation first and foremost because they want to be there. Hope that makes sense? I have never and never will force my two into any social situation that they are not happy with or ready for. I am not of the ilk that I would be doing it for their own good. Yes I will push at boundries but not because society says that my kids have to be social but because I need to see how far they are both comfortable to go.

 

When David was 14 years old and Rob had his 21st Birthday. David spent all night at his party with a coat over his head. He would not look at anyone of speak to anyone and you would question why he was even there? The answer to that is that he wanted to be there because no matter how bad he felt being there, he wanted his brother to remember that he made the effort - and boy was it some effort. I did not think that David's hatred of social situations would ever change. But they have.

 

I taught David how we are expected to behave in certain situations which I consider to be good manners. David now has a social life but it's the social life of his choice. He even did a 21st Birthday by choice a couple of weeks ago. He also realised that if you want to be included and hold your own on a group of lads it helps if you can talk football. He hates football but he knows more about it now than they and that had raised his standing in the group and helps his self esteem. Although I would be lying of I said I am not thrilled with the way David can handle social situation now - the important thing is that he wants to. Some NT people never party and enjoy there own company best. So unless a person with AS feels like they are missing out then I would not push the issue. If they do feel like they are missing out then that is a different kettle of fish.

 

I think my motto now is 'Everything comes to she who waits - and if it does not then it was mot meant to be'

 

Carole

[lil_me]

My sons being reffered to a very basic social skills group, I have heard many positive things from parents, if he dislikes it when he goes (which will be a while as waiting liss are big) I will not force him to attend as I believe it is important for him not to feel forced into these things, but if it helps, I am willing to try it.

Edited February 2, 2006 by lil_me

[pepper]

i dont know if im chattering slightly off topic here ( im new ) but i think ( and i am totally clueless here) that thats what sons doc has refered my 13 yr old to

 

i sorta rambled and she rambled and i left appointment sort of clueless

 

but i mentioned to doc that - basically im the only person that advises son on manners, behaviour and reactions and that i felt he could do with someone else to chat to - to give different viewpoints and support ( what i actually meant - subtly - was i was completely knackered being sons sound board LOL and oppppppppps ) and im not sure im tacking everything correctly sometimes

 

I know its a very different viewpoint to the main in thread so far - but from my parenting viewpoint - i fancied a break from all the .... hassle or at least a wee bit of support !

 

xx pep

[Brook]

When my son was in school the autism outreach team used to go in for social skills training with him.

They mainly focused on things like turntaking, winning, losing etc.. the things that he found really difficult to deal with, they didn't actually make any difference to him and he still finds these things very hard.

Although it didn't appear to help him much, I dont think it did him any harm.

 

I think if you really feel your child would benefit, then go for it, but if you have doubts you have to weigh up the pros and cons.

 

Sorry, no help at all!

 

Brook

[oracle]

I think another important thing is the age of the child. While Matthew aged 8, would probably happily join in with a social skills game, I can't see that happening with a 13 year old. Kids reach an age when they already know that they are different and don't want to look stupid too. Maybe if it was worked on from being small there would be no need for this kind of training when they were older. Then again maybe you just have to wait until they are ready?

 

Carole

[Tez]

Thank you some interesting replies.

 

Can I ask how you would react if it was being forced on you and your child against your wishes because an LEA were insisting on including it in a statement of educational need?

 

Carole, could I ask you whether David could have coped with this sort of course when he had his breakdown. David was a similar age then to what A is now and the circumstances are very similar?

[Canopus]

I think another important thing is the age of the child. While Matthew aged 8, would probably happily join in with a social skills game, I can't see that happening with a 13 year old. Kids reach an age when they already know that they are different and don't want to look stupid too. Maybe if it was worked on from being small there would be no need for this kind of training when they were older. Then again maybe you just have to wait until they are ready?

 

Difficult to say. It probably depends upon the kid and their circumstances.

 

I definitely think that social skills training would have worked best on me before I started secondary school and earlier could well have been better. The best time might have been nursery school. My nursery school operated along a free play system and had no structured group lessons or activities. The teachers weren't happy that I tended to play with toys rather than other kids. If there were structured group activities then it would have encouraged me to relate to other kids better. I didn't think there was anything wrong with me until I was 10. When things went wrong at school I blamed the system and the failure of the school to deal with bullying in the playground. Something similar to Marc Segar's survival guide would have been of great help to me at this age.

 

By the time someone is 13, they have cut their path and social skills sessions will only be of use if they want them and feel they are benefitting from them. The main reason for sending me to residential school was to force me to mix with kids of my own age in team activities because I spent too much of my free time at home on the computer. I was happy to spend my free time on the computer and didn't want to involve myself in team or social activities with kids my own age. At the time I was more concerned with education and getting good GCSEs rather than popular teenage recreational activities but my EP didn't think this was the case. If I had read my statement at the time then the truth would be revealed and I would have played truant from residential school.

[oracle]

Hi Tez,

 

Had David been pushed to attend 'anything' for four years after his breakdown I don't think that he would have ever recovered and that's the truth. It took David all of that time to regain his inner strength and find out who he was. I never pushed him but I did encourage him and gave him opportunities to socalise but that all depends on what you term as socalisie? For David socalising would be a trip to the Newsagents to collect a magazine. He had to get in and out of the shop and buy the mag that was a social outing.

 

I am a firm believer that after a breakdown a child needs time to put themselves back together again. OK if there are mental health issues then maybe the professionals know what is best? I am also a firm believer that LEA's are fanatical about socialising to the point of madness. Can I ask will you be the one following the Statement? Because from what I know you have to give your child the opportunity to socalise but no one can force them not even if a Statement says so. That would be an infringement of their human rights.

 

Do you think that A is OK? By that I mean are you worried that he is not mixing enough? If the answer is no then tell them to go take a long walk off a short peer.

 

Carole

[Zemanski]

different children, different needs - Com is 13 and loving social skills but I do know that one boy dropped out because he couldn't cope.

 

on the other hand both boys also started a music and theatre group for AS kids with Opera North, I've taken Com out because he couldn't cope but this other lad is enjoying it thoroughly. I would say both are good groups, they just suit different children.

 

How would you feel about 1-1, Tez?

 

Com had 1-1 with the LEA specialist who runs the social skills group before he started it and he really loved that - it was time to chat and ponder and always focused on his own issues and strengths. There is no reason social skills has to be done in any sort of group, although theoretically 'social' implies 'group', if it is not suitable.

 

Also one point to make about the effectiveness of any of this type of work with ASC kids is that it doesn't work effectively unless the children are supported with generalising the learning into their own environment - Com's LSA is being trained alongside Com in order to help him use his skills generally and with her support he is beginning to be much more at ease in groups at school.

 

We are actually trying to get social skills into Com's statement because he is obviously benefiting and we want it to continue (our LEA won't do anything at all if it isn't in a statement) but I can see exactly where you are coming from, it should be about individual need not about blanket policy - 'have AS must attend social skills group' If it wasn't right for Com I would be resisting having it in his statement too.

 

Zemanski

[Tez]

Thanks Carole,

 

I believe that A would never recover from being forced into social skills classes at the moment either. He is not socially isolated. He has 3 very supportive friends who come round the house about 3 evenings per week but A doesn't want contact with anyone else. His sensory problems are out of control and just leaving the house is virtually impossible for him at the moment.

 

Unfortunately, I think the LEA will be the one following the statement because although the agreement is for tuition in the home they will be the ones administering it, and also they have written in a phrase that he will be educated in a mainstream environment when it is reasonable to do so(another area of dispute).

 

OK if there are mental health issues then maybe the professionals know what is best?

 

But in the case of my LEA they think that the EP is more of an expert than his Consultant (who has phoned the LEA to say that in this instance she does not agree with social skills sessions, but unfortunately, not put it in writing, may ask her to do so if this becomes a real issue) and the OT (who says that social skills classes are of no real benefit when the problems stem from sensory issues unless the sensory issues have been dealt with first) and will only back down when the EP agrees that his advice was inappropriate. His Consultant doesn't think it would work, neither does A.

Edited February 3, 2006 by Tez

[Zemanski]

Com has more good, satisfying social interaction in his 2 hours of social skills than in a full week of school and it does him good if only for that. Com has no friends in school and only sees his old primary school friends now and again for various reasons - if he were not in these groups he would be extremely isolated and he gets incredibly lonely so there is a real point to attending these groups for him.

 

A, on the other hand, obviously has a strong social life and is getting what he needs from it - adding engineered social interaction would probably be more stressful than beneficial.

 

Com is having a visual assessment done (prosopagnosia and other related issues) next week and hopefully intervention should help him with his sensoryproblems - I'll PM you when I know more, Tez.

 

Z

[Tez]

Zemanski,

 

I'm sorry we must have been posting at about the same time.

 

How would you feel about 1-1

 

I'm not sure that this wouldn't be equally problematic. I think maybe, at this stage, just approaching the issues is more than A can cope with. Just before Christmas A attempted going to a group for teenagers with AS. He's currently having a break from it, partly because he couldn't cope with the sensory aspects of it, but also because there was a section of time set aside for social skills. I can't remember all of the details but there was one session on dealing with anger constructively, and another on relaxation techniques including visualization both these caused real problems. A tends to analyse everything that is said in minute detail and he had some real issues with some of the suggestions, he felt that some of the approaches were naive and really not appropriate. He had every opportunity to discuss this, the leader of the group said that he found the discussion with A challenging and wondered himself whether he had made the situation worse. This created alot of anxiety for him and really didn't do anything to teach him how to cope with situations.

[Zemanski]

off to school with Dot now, Com is excluded so I'm not as rushed this morning

 

back in an hour or two

 

Z

[nvapid]

he felt that some of the approaches were naive and really not appropriate. He had every opportunity to discuss this, the leader of the group said that he found the discussion with A challenging and wondered himself whether he had made the situation worse.

 

Unfortunatley, this can be the case with Social Skills groups. I am incredibly jealous of Zemanski's situation! Sounds ideal and I wouldn't mind knowing more about how they come up with their materials. Social Skills can be very good for AS kids, but if run by competant trained people - and if they aren't try to help where you can by discussing with the group leaders what your son's partcular stresses are so that they can tailor their approach. Your son left the other group, but now that that person knows the mediation and focus on problems does not help, would they have tried something different?

[OPooh]

My ds is supposed to have social skills training coming up at school - but they are not very forthcoming with what it will entail.

[Tez]

Thank you for all the comments. They have been very helpful.

 

We had our meeting with the LEA and hopefully, we have reached agreement on this. Everyone is agreed that, as things stand at present, A will not benefit from social skills training. However, because the EP had written it into his advice the LEA did not want to remove it entirely from the statement. It's been agreed that it will be reworded to say that at some stage A might benefit from some social skills type programme, this will be made available at the expense of the LEA should either we or A request it, and will not take place in any circumstances without our agreement.

[Zemanski]

sounds perfect - keep all the options open, in a year or two he might need some support in that area and as it doesn't say 'group' you don't have to accept putting him into one, well done

 

Z

[darky]

interesting post!! i think it depends on the child!! i try not to think of it as "social skills" but more "life skills". most kids learn them naturaly but our kids it takes so much more. i think as long as society dont try and "normalise" our kids then its fine, but teaching them skills to adapt to life as best they can its fine.

my daughter has been doing some social skills in a group at school. its things like learning how to take turns, teaching her how to ask for help, asking to play etc. this has really helped her no end and the difference has been amazing. as long as it dont go "too far" then i think its a good thing.

[Zemanski]

I realised I hadn't answered nvapid about resources, etc.- the group uses a range of resources including things from Tony Attwood's cognitive behaviour therapy books, and Navigating the social world by Jeanette McAfee. They also make a lot of stuff themselves and they adapt session by session to issues raised by parents or in sessions - for example I know they do roleplay every week because Com particularly likes it. They also do things like introducing everyone each week once they are seated so Com can recognise them at least by where they are sat.

 

The other group could not have suited Com regardless of adjustments because of the nature of the activities and the venue - Com doesn't like the building at all for several reasons some of which would require rebuilding to sort out (it's actually in a school we looked at and part of the reason we didn't go for the school was his response to the physical environment). Also there was a lot of singing and he has issues with certain pitches so doesn't like certain types of song - this is run by an opera company! It wa also a much bigger group and Com finds that difficult.

 

don't be too jealous though - as of last Wednesday those two hours of social skills are all the education and social interaction Com has and that is only because they take place off-site! - the joys of exclusion

 

Zemanski

[Lucas]

Just have to write here:

 

The notion that Autism is a social problem, is a social skills problem, inhibits socialising and that there is a deficit in social processing has been concretely disproven yet the evidence is ignored by those who insist on teaching Autistics social skills.

 

The reason why Autistics have no deficit in social processing is that we don't have any dedicated social processing brain function: we process social information like any other information, spewing out a string of talking points and 'correct prompts' to drive socialising is no different from our perspective than driving a car on a busy road- it's just a collection of sequences and pre-fixed responses to changing situations learned by rote.

 

If I'm blind, is it a good idea to teach me to drive and if I ask to drive should I be indulged for the sake of political correctness? For a blind person, the processes will be different to what a sighted person uses and from the blind person's perspective it will be no different in perspective terms than baking bread on a moving fairground ride. Their best chance is if a sighted person sat in the passenger seat and told them what to do and even then the chances of disaster are enormous.

 

That's the most accurate analogy I can find. We can't have a deficit in an area we don't have. It doesn't mean that we can't socialise(blind people can take the bus or a taxi after all), but we will do it in our own way and ONLY in our own way. The problem with typical social skills training is that they inhibit our natural way of doing it.

[Tez]

Lucas,

 

There was some new information released in November last year that is making the educational and medical professions think they were right all along with their insistence on social skills intervention. Basically, new colour imaging MRI techniques now suggest that when looking at a face, activity in the brain area that responds is similar in both autistic and non-autistic people. This is contrary to the evidence that was presented with the old black and white images. They are therefore surmising that behavioural interventions aimed at desensitising autistics to the anxiety of looking at people will improve their social interaction. I've also read some where else, can't find it at the moment, that they have extrapolated these findings to suggest that this is the case with all areas of social processing in the brain and that studies are currently under way to confirm this.

 

Personally, I have grave doubts and concerns about this but I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what develops.

 

You can read the article here.

[lynyona]

When k was at school id like to have thought this would have helped as he may have coped better doing it within school as he loved school and just went along with what they wanted him to do.I dont think he would cope with it now if somebody came to him and said he had to go.If it came up as with the jobcentre you have to atetnd your placement or lose your benefits im convinced that k would for go his money.The CAHMS clinical Psych wanted to go down that road get him out there whether he likes it or not,but while i went along with it,more for his good than theirs it was one big disaster,im sure some of you remember the posts i wrote about his disasterous college visits how the last resort ended with me actually tricking him into going.I now take the same approach as Carole mentioned earlier if he is not happy with a situation i am not going to force him into it, he knows what he feels comfortable with and it has to be on his terms, the only thing the trickery achieved was to make him more suspicous of any unknown about trips or visits to anywhere.

 

 

Lynn

[Lucas]

I often read press releases about studies, some of them give me bad nausia like this one.

 

The evidence is as usual correct, the conclusions drawn from it are horribly wrong and contradict other evidence. In Autism research, there are a lot of egos and talking heads each with their own opinion contradicting the next one even though the evidence is always consistent and hardly misleading.

 

This study proves what real Autism experts knew all along: we are not face-blind and are not impaired in recognising the properties of different facial expressions(after numerous flawed studies where photographs were used instead of real faces, so of course the Autistic subjects with superior attention to detail over the non-Autistic control group percieved correctly that pictures of faces are not faces but objects).

 

The conclusions drawn are somewhat absurd: no evidence at all is presented that gives credit to behavioural intervention to 'desensitise' Autistics to painful stimuli and of course the ethics of doing so are back-handed out of the picture(as is the case in so much Autism research). Perhaps Lovaas had the childrens' best interests at heart and was trying to 'desensitise' them to the car battery he shocked them with.

 

The one redeeming feature is:

 

at least from the perspective of caregivers and others involved with them.

 

they at least acknowledge that this may be of no benefit to the Autistic themselves.

 

The study has done a good job however debunking some already debunked but circulating myths about non-existent social deficits in Autism.