Defining Aspergers Syndrome

[oracle]

Apparently the difference between Autism and Aspergers Syndrome is easily defined, or so my friend has been told today, from someone from our Outreach Team. The difference appears to be that someone with Aspergers Syndrome is 'fully aware that other people think and that they are aware that other people think all of the time' There you go as simple as that. Or is it? She was told this after her son had been viewed in his Mainstream Language Unit by the Outreach Team as part of his transitional review. Also after the staff from the Language Unit and the Head of the School had informed Mr Outreach that my friends son, who is now 10, is chronologically on a level with the Reception Children and in some areas year 1. They also stated quite clearly that this child will not cope in a Mainstream Comp and that he needs specialist provision (that could be tricky because by next year we wont have any) However Mr Outreach informed my friend that with support her son will do well in a Mainstream Comp

 

It was at this point that he commented that he did wonder about the dx of AS - friend has too and is now awaiting a re-assessment. He then came out with this gem of information that the difference between AS and Autism is that someone with AS will be aware that other people think and think all of the time. He is sure that my friend?s son has this ability. What he does have is a very complex Language Disorder as well as his AS and cannot even cope with an hour?s integration without severe stress and anxiety.

 

Is this really one of the defining characteristics of AS folks - my friend as well as I would love to know for sure?

 

Carole

Edited February 23, 2006 by carole

[baddad]

news to me...

 

bd

[Brook]

Carole,

 

isn't this related to the 'theory of mind'?

 

Brook

[Malika]

Hi Carole,

 

What an amazing discovery and noone has told us ... how bad is that.

Well tomorow I will try to get some information directly from my source... H.... and see if he seems to realise that other people think and do it all the time I will have to ask for a second opinion as he has ASD DX

 

I would say that Stephen Hawking sums it all that is why I have chosen this as my signature.

 

The greatest ennemy of knowledge is not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge. Stephen Hawking

 

Malika.

[oracle]

I did wonder about the Theory of Mind thing Brook and maybe my friend should ask, if as part of his observations was her sons Theory of Mind tested? Even so this guy is not a Diagnostic Clinician and should he really be giving his opinions where a dx is concerned? He also made a bit of a pigs ear of explaining himself if his explanation is related to this?

 

 

Malikia - could not agree more with you - and your signature

 

Carole

[Brook]

Carole,

 

This following link may not be the best one (haven't read right through it) but doesn't quite agree

with the new diagnostic clinician at your friends sons school.

 

http://puterakembara.org/aspie.shtml#theory%20of%20mind

 

Brook

[Brook]

Also just thinking Carole, it wasn't that sally anne test thingy was it?

The ed psych did this with my son, and because he got the end question right, he said 'oh he has good

theory of mind' amazing isn't it, just by doing this one simple test.

 

Brook

Edited February 23, 2006 by Brook

[Lucas]

There is no criteria for either diagnosis that I have read that puts awareness if other peoples sentience as a dividing line. Also, the only way to know what any person is thinking is to ask them, even Autistic people.

 

This quack-psycho babble is nonsense based on the assumption that there is a such thing as Autism causing what can be described as a psychotic mindset for others. A person that does not view other people as thinking and feeling beings is psychotic and most psychopaths are not Autistic. It would be very difficult to actually diagnoses an Autistic as psychotic accurately.

 

I think the problem is that Autistic children are smarter than Autistic adults and are smart enough to know that if they show any sign that they care about what other people think, their situation immediately gets worse.

[Zemanski]

the idea that AS kids have an awareness of theory of mind and autistic kids don't is pure nonsense - both AS and autistic kids can pass first order theory of mind tests (the Sally Anne test is a first order test), not all but many, it is more likely that they will struggle with second order tests but some of both diagnostic groups can pass these too, especially as they get older.

 

To use this as a difference between AS and autism is applying a purely qualitative judgement and is not diagnostically significant.

It has been noted that AS kids tend to find these tests easier than autistic kids do but this may be for all sorts of reasons, including the fact that autism includes people across the range of ability and AS does not.

 

Also the tests don't test whether or not the person has an awareness of the fact that other people think or even think differently, only whether or not someone can figure out what those thought processes might be - not the same at all

 

Zemanski

[Flora]

Carole,

 

If that is really the case, then I would say there are lots of kids out there with a dx of AS who should have a dx of autism. William hasn't a clue that other people can work things out and think things through. He can argue till he's blue in the face that one thing is this and one thing is that, without taking in to account that we are all privvy to the same information as him, in other words, he can lie but he's absolutely rubbish at it because he is unaware that other people can think (this is only one example of many), or put it another way, he is aware that others think but doesn't use that information when it matters.

 

I think this statement by the outreach worker is nonsense, and if it isn't then many should be getting dx changed from AS to autism.

[CarerQuie]

I've never heard that theory.The only one I've heard is the language delay/disorder before age 3 and it's autism rather than AS.xx

[Bullet]

I would beg to disagree with your friend I'm afraid. Even now, after 30 years, I still struggle to remember that other people are feeling different things. Eg because I am not feeling anything about MIL's death (apart from odd times) although I did love her, it is hard for me to remember that DH is grieving. And unless it's pointed out to me I forget when people will be feeling angry or upset at something. Also - and I have no idea if this is related, but I often find it difficult to connect myself with the outside world. Perhaps the strongest example I can give is that both times I was pregnant I could imagine the baby inside me - and I could imagine a baby in the outside world, but the two were mutually exclusive. I was unable to accept my pregnancy would result in anything other than a huge stomach . I also struggle to initiate things in real life partly because I think others will know what I want 8)

[Tanya Glass]

There is no criteria for either diagnosis that I have read that puts awareness if other peoples sentience as a dividing line. Also, the only way to know what any person is thinking is to ask them, even Autistic people.

A person that does not view other people as thinking and feeling beings is psychotic and most psychopaths are not Autistic.

 

Although the above is quite a strong statement, I very much agree with its sentiments, people who cannot see others as thinking and feelings beings, well I think it is very sad for them.

 

I spoke to NAS this week - still trying to get resolvement on my family issue - very interesting, some new research is available at present, forget the website but but along the lines www.mrc.co.uk (medical research council).

 

Anyway that is another thread, just wanted to say I think you have touched on something very true and probably fundemental to the understanding of any so called disorder no matter what it may be.

 

James

[curra]

If that is really the case, then I would say there are lots of kids out there with a dx of AS who should have a dx of autism. William hasn't a clue that other people can work things out and think things through. He can argue till he's blue in the face that one thing is this and one thing is that, without taking in to account that we are all privvy to the same information as him, in other words, he can lie but he's absolutely rubbish at it because he is unaware that other people can think (this is only one example of many), or put it another way, he is aware that others think but doesn't use that information when it matters.

 

I think this statement by the outreach worker is nonsense, and if it isn't then many should be getting dx changed from AS to autism.

 

Lauren

I agree with you. My son "knows" that others think and have feelings but his actions show that he's not aware of it. He lies even though everyone knows that he's lying and he doesn't notice that others have the same information that he has. Does that make him autistic and not AS?

 

Curra