Staying at school until 12 midday

[justine1]

Hi

As you all may well know Sam was excluded twice last term(before christmas) and has been in trouble every day for one thing or another.Yesterday they asked if I could take himhome for lunch today and bring him back at 1.15 I said I could but it needs to be a one off thing.I have to take Sam's younger brother(Dan) to afternoon nursery so went to collect Sam at the same time(12.15) when I arrived the head asked if I could come have a word.

 

Basically ,everyday Sam is being verbally abusive towards staff and even more so to the dinner ladies,one of the dinner ladies said she is going to quit as she cant handle his abuse and he never listens.On Wednesday he went under the table(a common problem he does)he was there for 40min and three teachers and my eldest had to try get him to come out.He really doesnt seem happy.He has also been following two girls around constantly,he pulls their hair and pushes tem,one of the girls he has hit before and was excluded.Both of the parents of these girls have complained about Sam.

 

The school seem to have tried really hard,they have created his own corner when he is not coping he even has his teddy from home there,he has been given a mat for the carpet so he wont get upset not being first and gets to go to the cloakroom before the others.He has been having 1:1 (about 1 hr a day) but he hasnt got a statement yet so the school cannot fund any more hours.The ed phsych is coming on wed and the autism teacher is coming next month.The head has called the LA and they decided that he should only do mornings(until 12midday) for three weeks and then review this.The head fears he will be permanantly excluded if he stays all day,she commented he i more tired in the afternoons.

 

The had has also said she really doesnt feel mainstream is for him and I agree 100%.I have never fely its right for him.She has another boy with autism who has a statement she said he was worse than Sam,but since his statment he is better but she says given Sam has some support she doesnt think its going to help much that its the whole setting.So when I apply for his statement should I be expressing that I wish for him to go to an ASD school (which I have already got my eye on.)

 

 

Thank you everyone.

[baddad]

Hi Justine -

 

sounds as though you/he are really struggling

Firstly, it sounds as though you have a good relationship with the school and trust them (and visa versa). That's a brilliant starting point

I think the staying until 12 thing is a good compromise under the circumstances, but it has drawbacks too... Does Sam want to be at school or not? If 'yes' than adjusting hours to help him to cope and to stop the situation from deteriorating further has to be a plus. If he really doesn't want to be there, though ( a very different thing to not being able to cope there), then you could be setting a precedent that will be hard to get away from later on... If the latter, and you do decide to go with the 12.00 finish, make sure 'home' doesn't become a reward...

 

I'm not sure about the head's comment about the other autistic boy being 'worse' , but it may have just sounded bad out of context! The head does make a good point, though, if she is comparing Sam's behaviour to the other child as a realistic 'gauge' of how difficult the situation is. You're in the best position to judge that, and it sounds as though you trust the head's judgement

 

Specialist provision: If you think it's the best thing for him and you have seen a school that you think would benefit him it makes good sense to look into it. It's a tough call - particularly at primary school - because it's often very much a case of swings and roundabouts. All you can really do is look closely at the swings, closely at the roundabout, and see which one he's gonna get most out of.

 

Statementing: I'm sure someone else will be able to offer good advice on this one, but statementing and specialist provision is slightly different, because there's things in place in specialist schools that aren't in place in mainstream. However, if you're going to be 'fighting' for a specialist placement then the timescale alone means a statement in his current provision is a must...

 

Hope that helps

 

L&P

 

BD

[Karen A]

Hi justine. <'>

I can understand why the school have suggested Sam finish school at midday for the next three weeks and appreciate that they are attempting to improve things.

However I do not think that their actions are legal.

There are only two legal options for a part time timetable.

One is where it is recognised and documented that a child cannot cope full time due to documented medical needs.

The other is where each exclusion [each afternoon] is documented as a half day exclusion.

If the school were legally excluding your child for fifteen half days you would have a right to appeal.

They would also have to put a plan in place for work or alternative provision after a certain number of days.

They should also work with you to put a plan in place to deal with the issues that are a concern on return to school.

The exclusions might well provide evidence that your son needs different or increased provision.

However if the exclusions are not legal school cannot use them as evidence.

If you agree to remove your child to help school with the current situation and the LA are not satisfied with the situation it is possible that school could even then say you have decided to remove your child in the afternoons.This happened with another parent on the Forum and the school then blamed the parent for condoning unauthorised abscence.

 

I have just realised that the LA appear to agree that fifteen half day exclusions are acceptable.....however I still do not think it is legal and think it is worth talking to the ACE exclusion advice line or IPSEA for an expert opinion.

Even though the school currently appear helpful things could easily change if the HT is challenged by the LA.

ACE produce excellent information on exclusion that I will find for you.

 

http://www.ace-ed.org.uk/advice-about-educ...mation-pack.htm

 

http://www.ipsea.org.uk/What-you-need-to-know/Exclusion

 

The school cannnot legally not allow your son access to a full time education just because they do not have funding to cope.

It would be worth talking to ACE and parent partnership in your area.

The LA should also have a named officer with responsibility for monitoring exclusions.It may be worth talking to them.

 

Regarding the incidents of violence [hair pulling and pushing] school should be recording these in an incident book.

They should also be putting a plan in place to prevent these incidents happening.

Afternoon exclusion will not change your sons behaviour if he does not know what he is doing wrong,cannot link the exculsion to his behaviour and does not know what to do instead of hair pulling or pushing.

It is widely recognised that even where punishment is an appropriate course of action it needs to be carried out as soon after the incident as possible.

The consequences need to be linked to the difficult behaviour.

I cannot see how three weeks of half day exculsion makes any logical sense in this regard.

 

If school are really not able to cope then the HT needs to be far more pro-active.The ASD outreach teacher could be contacted urgently.The LA should also have a behaviour support team who may be helpful.

The school should be dealing with the issues with other parents.That is what the HT is payed for.The issue of support staff complaining is also an issue for the HT.

If the HT is really concerned about his/her staff they should be conducting a risk assessment and ensuring that all concerns are documented as per school and LA policy.They might then have more evidence to support requests for an urgent Statutary Assessment.

An hour day TA support sounds very little.I would expect that school should be able to provide more in the short term from delegated funding.It sounds inadequate in relation to your son's needs.

Ben resorted to hiding under tables at one stage just before Statutary Assessment was undetaken.He was a very anxious boy at that point.

 

I agree with BD.

If your son is not happy at school far from the exclsion being a deterent it may well encourage further cjallenging behaviour so he can have time at home which may feel like a good option.

I was always confused by this message.When Ben is most unhappy he does everything he can think of to be allowed to miss school.

 

I also think it would be worth writing to the LA to request they conduct a Statutary Assessment if you have not done so already,

There is a draft letter on the IPSEA web site.

http://www.ipsea.org.uk/What-you-need-to-k...stingAssessment

 

If you are considering specialist provision then a Statement would almost certainly be needed.

 

I think it would also be worth checking that school are documenting current SEN provision.

 

http://www.ace-ed.org.uk/advice-about-educ...ucational_Needs

Sam should be on the SEN register at SA plus if ASD outreach are involved.

An IEP should also clearly document current difficulties,aims of current provision in place and what the TA is currently doing to provide support.

If a Statutary Assessment is to be undertaken the LA will want to ensure that school have already used all available delegated funding to put support in place with minimal impact.

Although it is possible for the LA to agree to Statutary Assessment where this has nothappened it makes things more complicated.

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=23106

I realised that you already posted this thread.If school go ahead with fifteen half- day exclusions you would certainly have a right to appeal to the COG as per Kathryn's advice.

Karen.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Karen A

[baddad]

Hi again -

 

Taking onboard what Karen A has said above, then I think you need to get anything you agree with the school (and the reasons why) in writing (TBH I sort of assumed this would be the case anyway, but maybe I missed something?), but I'm disappointed to see again a situation where a parent and school seem to be working together being seen as something potentially sinister and underhand.

As I say - disappointed, but not in any way surprised, because the 'us and them' culture is certainly one that is over-represented on the forum while compromise, mutual trust and respect is hugely under represented...

And before it's raised i don't say that as a response to Karen's post specifically (though obviously I have mentioned it as a point of reference), but as a general observation on a cultural attutude that encompasses schools, medical professionals, support services, social services et al, and that (IMO) poses a bigger potential threat to children (and not just autistic of disabled children, but all children) generally than all of those services put together: because for every situation where that kind of suspicion is justified there are probably ten where it's just used as a justification when it's not...

 

L&P

 

BD

 

[bid]

Hi again -

 

Taking onboard what Karen A has said above, then I think you need to get anything you agree with the school (and the reasons why) in writing (TBH I sort of assumed this would be the case anyway, but maybe I missed something?), but I'm disappointed to see again a situation where a parent and school seem to be working together being seen as something potentially sinister and underhand.

As I say - disappointed, but not in any way surprised, because the 'us and them' culture is certainly one that is over-represented on the forum while compromise, mutual trust and respect is hugely under represented...

And before it's raised i don't say that as a response to Karen's post specifically (though obviously I have mentioned it as a point of reference), but as a general observation on a cultural attutude that encompasses schools, medical professionals, support services, social services et al, and that (IMO) poses a bigger potential threat to children (and not just autistic of disabled children, but all children) generally than all of those services put together: because for every situation where that kind of suspicion is justified there are probably ten where it's just used as a justification when it's not...

 

L&P

 

BD

 

 

Eh??

 

Can anyone else see this in Karen's post, or does she just appear to be offering extremely sensible advice, which from my experience I'm pretty sure would be echoed by IPSEA/ACE, etc?

 

Bid the Baffled

Edited January 22, 2010 by bid

[bid]

Justine, just to add that a school can be genuinely supportive and the staff genuniely caring about a child, but they can still be acting illegally...the two things are not mutually exclusive unfortunately, especially with children in mainstream who don't have a Statement and are consequently extremely vulnerable to this kind of thing.

 

I think Karen has given you extremely good advice and excellent links so that you can perhaps discuss the situation with a professional who understands the full complexities of SEN within the mainstream setting.

 

Good luck, we've been in a similar situation.

 

Bid

 

 

[justine1]

Thank you very much baddad and Karen A.I didthink about asking for it in writing but then assumed that cause she had contacted LA these no need,but I think I should definatley cover my own back in case LA come back claiming they know nothing of it!

 

The head stressed it was not an exclusion,so I am definatley confused,so I will go and have a word with her.I know they are not meeting his needs but she is adamant there is nothing furthur they can do and have to wait for the ed physch and autism teacher to come in.They also have a special needs teacher who comes in twice a week and he goes to nurture group,he is on SA+ and I did check all incidents are being recorded back in Dec.I think I will speak to her again on Monday just to clear things up,I will request a letter stating that the reasons why he needs to be home in the afternoons and that they cant cope and also that its theirs and the LA's decision.On the day he went under the table the teacher was on her own no TA so she didnt know what to do and they say the other kids are thinking he gets away with everything,like swearing and disrespecting adults.

 

Ultimatley I can see him spiralling out of control,it is something I have considered for a few months now so its not a hasty decision.I feel as Karen A said it may not make a difference and his behaviour may still get worse and I mentioned this to the head as he sometimes has bad mornings and good afternoons and vice versa,but I do feel its worth a try and for now he has not been permanantley excluded and I do want to avoid this for as long as possible.Anything is worth a try.

 

Thank you again.

[baddad]

Justine, just to add that a school can be genuinely supportive and the staff genuniely caring about a child, but they can still be acting illegally...the two things are not mutually exclusive unfortunately

Bid

 

Good point. And one, I admit, I had failed to consider when responding earlier...

I guess I just saw the op saying she felt the school were doing all they could followed by another post saying they were acting illegally, that by not doing it 'by the book' they could jeapordise the OP's attempts to get a statement and that a similar attempt at working with the school had backfired badly on another member because the school had manipulated the situation to make accusations against the parent etc, and I took it out of context.

 

So apologies for that, but I do stand by what I said about the culture of 'blame' that exists on the forum and the lack of willingness for cooperation, which I've said many times before and will doubtless say again (and which I did say was a general not specific observation).

 

And I do agree fully with taking a 'belt and braces' approach and getting everything in writing, which again I have said many times (and will doubtless say again) and which I actually reiterated in my post.

 

Hope that clears things up; and apologies again Karen A if I misinterpreted the motivator behind what I agree in general terms is very good advice.

 

L&P

 

BD

[bid]

Good point. And one, I admit, I had failed to consider when responding earlier...

I guess I just saw the op saying she felt the school were doing all they could followed by another post saying they were acting illegally, that by not doing it 'by the book' they could jeapordise the OP's attempts to get a statement and that a similar attempt at working with the school had backfired badly on another member because the school had manipulated the situation to make accusations against the parent etc, and I took it out of context.

 

So apologies for that, but I do stand by what I said about the culture of 'blame' that exists on the forum and the lack of willingness for cooperation, which I've said many times before and will doubtless say again (and which I did say was a general not specific observation).

 

And I do agree fully with taking a 'belt and braces' approach and getting everything in writing, which again I have said many times (and will doubtless say again) and which I actually reiterated in my post.

 

Hope that clears things up; and apologies again Karen A if I misinterpreted the motivator behind what I agree in general terms is very good advice.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Blimey!! Picks self up off floor in shock...

 

Bid

 

(Although will never agree with the notion of a 'culture of blame' on the forum...)

Edited January 22, 2010 by bid

[Kathryn]

Hi Justine

 

Very little to add to the points already made, especially Karen A's advice which is spot on. If you haven't already done so I suggest you download or ring for ACE's exclusion pack which includes the DFES exclusions "bible" Improving Behaviour and Attendance.

 

Justine, I think writing to the LA to ask for a statutory assessment should be top priority for you now. I find it boggling that the school has not initiated the process themselves as they are freely admitting they cannot even give him the full time education every child is entitled to, let alone meet his SEN. It's even more boggling that the LA are turning a blind eye to this. Oh hang on - it's not - they do it all the time.

 

If a child is sent home because the school cannot cope with him, it's an unofficial exclusion. It doesn't matter how nicely it's done or whether the parent agrees to it, it's illegal. End of.

 

This means, Justine, that you should be under no pressure to agree to it, and you are within your rights to refuse to collect him at lunchtimes. If the school don't want him there they must officially exclude him, they cannot just send him home for their own convenience. If the school throw a wobbly and say they don't have the funding to provide the extra support, they must take the matter up with the LA as a matter of urgency: it's not your concern.

 

I know, Baddad, you qualified your earlier post so this is not directed at you, but I just want to reinforce the message loudly and clearly that parents should not feel forced into colluding with an illegal exclusion or feel blamed for the suggestion that they are not cooperating with the school if they insist that the school follows the rules. The guidance is very clear on what schools' legal responsibilities are with regard to exclusions and sets out clearly the limited number of situations in which schools may authorise absence or send a child home - none of which apply here.

 

The school and LA appear to be allowing the situation to drift along- maybe it's time to apply a bit of pressure.

 

K x

Edited January 22, 2010 by Kathryn

[JsMum]

 

 

I just wanted to give you some of these, <'> It is a very stressful time, hopefully, ACE and Ipsea can help you further as it gets very complicated, and confusing, I hope that things can get resolved quickly, here in our area they are not expelling children anymore, incase they get fined! so the illegal exclusions may have something to do with this too because the head knows she wont be able to permantly exclude him because the schools get fined now.

 

JsMumxxx

 

[justine1]

Hi Justine

 

Very little to add to the points already made, especially Karen A's advice which is spot on. If you haven't already done so I suggest you download or ring for ACE's exclusion pack which includes the DFES exclusions "bible" Improving Behaviour and Attendance.

 

Justine, I think writing to the LA to ask for a statutory assessment should be top priority for you now. I find it boggling that the school has not initiated the process themselves as they are freely admitting they cannot even give him the full time education every child is entitled to, let alone meet his SEN. It's even more boggling that the LA are turning a blind eye to this. Oh hang on - it's not - they do it all the time.

 

If a child is sent home because the school cannot cope with him, it's an unofficial exclusion. It doesn't matter how nicely it's done or whether the parent agrees to it, it's illegal. End of.

 

This means, Justine, that you should be under no pressure to agree to it, and you are within your rights to refuse to collect him at lunchtimes. If the school don't want him there they must officially exclude him, they cannot just send him home for their own convenience. If the school throw a wobbly and say they don't have the funding to provide the extra support, they must take the matter up with the LA as a matter of urgency: it's not your concern.

 

I know, Baddad, you qualified your earlier post so this is not directed at you, but I just want to reinforce the message loudly and clearly that parents should not feel forced into colluding with an illegal exclusion or feel blamed for the suggestion that they are not cooperating with the school if they insist that the school follows the rules. The guidance is very clear on what schools' legal responsibilities are with regard to exclusions and sets out clearly the limited number of situations in which schools may authorise absence or send a child home - none of which apply here.

 

The school and LA appear to be allowing the situation to drift along- maybe it's time to apply a bit of pressure.

 

K x

Thank you very much Kathryn.Your post has given me lots to think about.You are right in that I dont want to make "waves" with the school,the communication between us seems fine but I do feel they have been procrastinating though they seem to blame other reasons for this.My older bot is really happy there,I just feel so lost right now,part of me wants to remove hom but I feel this wont help me or him.Without the statement we cant get very far so I want him to remain there at least until Summer.Thank you again Kathryn,thank God for people like you we would be so helpless without this forum/support.

 

Thank you Bid as well for your comments.

[bid]

I know, Baddad, you qualified your earlier post so this is not directed at you, but I just want to reinforce the message loudly and clearly that parents should not feel forced into colluding with an illegal exclusion or feel blamed for the suggestion that they are not cooperating with the school if they insist that the school follows the rules. The guidance is very clear on what schools' legal responsibilities are with regard to exclusions and sets out clearly the limited number of situations in which schools may authorise absence or send a child home - none of which apply here.

 

The school and LA appear to be allowing the situation to drift along- maybe it's time to apply a bit of pressure.

 

K x

 

Absolutely spot on

 

Bid

 

[baddad]

I know, Baddad, you qualified your earlier post so this is not directed at you, but I just want to reinforce the message loudly and clearly that parents should not feel forced into colluding with an illegal exclusion or feel blamed for the suggestion that they are not cooperating with the school if they insist that the school follows the rules. The guidance is very clear on what schools' legal responsibilities are with regard to exclusions and sets out clearly the limited number of situations in which schools may authorise absence or send a child home - none of which apply here.

 

The school and LA appear to be allowing the situation to drift along- maybe it's time to apply a bit of pressure.

 

K x

 

And I just want to reiterate that cooperating with a school who seem to have the child's interests at heart isn't 'collusion' and that cooperating with a school - while very unpopular in some circles - is not something people should feel forced into not doing and that there was no mention in the OP of feeling 'forced' and that there was no indication the school or any other party would put them in a situation where they had to insist schools rules were followed...

That, of course, is not directed at you or anyone else, Kathryn, but i will also reiterate my belief that there is a very clear and evident bias against the 'system' on the boards that would be clear to anyone who reads the education section.

In the past couple of weeks I have seen two members post that they have felt quite happy with efforts the schools were making on their children's behalfs - two out of god knows how many posts saying the opposite - and in both cases subsequent posts pretty much turned those 'positives' into negatives.

 

L&P

 

BDx

 

[Kathryn]

And I just want to reiterate that cooperating with a school who seem to have the child's interests at heart isn't 'collusion' and that cooperating with a school - while very unpopular in some circles - is not something people should feel forced into not doing and that there was no mention in the OP of feeling 'forced' and that there was no indication the school or any other party would put them in a situation where they had to insist schools rules were followed...

Baddad what the school is doing here is illegal. That's not a subjective judgement against the school, just fact.

 

That, of course, is not directed at you or anyone else, Kathryn,

Maybe so, but the fact that you have posted this in this particular thread implies criticism of parents who may not wish to comply with an illegal exclusion, for perfectly valid reasons. Official exclusion is not necessarily a bad thing, and does not necessarily mean that the school and parents cease to work together. On the contrary, exclusion can trigger change for the better: for a start, it gives the parent various rights - e.g. a right to put their concerns to the governors, and places obligations on the school and the LA to do something more for the child than they may have been doing. Both IPSEA and ACE recommend that parents do not accept unofficial exclusions.

 

but i will also reiterate my belief that there is a very clear and evident bias against the 'system' on the boards that would be clear to anyone who reads the education section.

 

Um... so pointing out what the guidance says, and where the school appear to be departing from it, is "bias against the system" ??

 

In the past couple of weeks I have seen two members post that they have felt quite happy with efforts the schools were making on their children's behalfs - two out of god knows how many posts saying the opposite - and in both cases subsequent posts pretty much turned those 'positives' into negatives.

 

Unfortunate that you should choose to post these comments in this thread - how are they relevant to this particular discussion? Whether you mean it to or not, your comments imply criticism of the OP and all the posters in this thread who have given balanced sensible advice based on the law and guidance.

 

K x

 

 

 

[bid]

And I just want to reiterate that cooperating with a school who seem to have the child's interests at heart isn't 'collusion' and that cooperating with a school - while very unpopular in some circles - is not something people should feel forced into not doing and that there was no mention in the OP of feeling 'forced' and that there was no indication the school or any other party would put them in a situation where they had to insist schools rules were followed...

That, of course, is not directed at you or anyone else, Kathryn, but i will also reiterate my belief that there is a very clear and evident bias against the 'system' on the boards that would be clear to anyone who reads the education section.

In the past couple of weeks I have seen two members post that they have felt quite happy with efforts the schools were making on their children's behalfs - two out of god knows how many posts saying the opposite - and in both cases subsequent posts pretty much turned those 'positives' into negatives.

 

L&P

 

BDx

 

But the salient point in this thread is that, however much this school may have the child's best interests at heart, what they are doing is illegal.

 

I fail to see how any parent expecting a school to act legally is part of a 'culture of blame' or evidence of a bias against the system on this forum...

 

Bid

Edited January 23, 2010 by bid

[justine1]

Hi sorry this post has turned into a debate,anyway when I tell the school that I have learnt from ACE that this is illegal,do I pronounce that as ACE or A.C.E? Sorry its a silly question but I dont want to look stupid.I have printed off and highlighted the main points.I will tell them I am still happy for him to come home but it must be recorded as an exclusion and I must have a copy.

 

Thank you all again.

[justine1]

Sorry I have another question.I have just read about flexi schooling,so how do I know the school will not claim this is flexi schooling? As they would say its an agreement between us and therefore not illegal.I know that either way I need to get a letter stating exactly what and why he is at home in the afternoons.

 

So instead of me rushing up to them saying what they doping is illegal,should I rather ask them to explain and put in writing exactly what it is exclusion or flexi schooling.

 

Thank you.

[baddad]

But the salient point in this thread is that, however much this school may have the child's best interests at heart, what they are doing is illegal.

 

Bid

 

 

And the salient point(s) in my last post (which were deftly overlooked by the way ) was that coperating with a school isn't 'collusion' (is saying good morning to a teacher 'fraternising with the enemy?); that nothing in the OP's original post suggested she felt 'forced'; and that there was no indication the school and there was no indication that the OP had needed or would need to 'insist' the school behave legally... Not much evidence of trust or two way respect, and, IMO the languafge being used itself is very clear evidence of a bias against schools whether you look through the rest of the education forum or not.

 

As for me detracting from the original intent of the thread:

 

Eh??

 

Can anyone else see this in Karen's post, or does she just appear to be offering extremely sensible advice, which from my experience I'm pretty sure would be echoed by IPSEA/ACE, etc?

 

Bid the Baffled

 

I guess the topic sort of 'opened up' around that point, when people were asked not to comment on the OP but on my response to it!

 

Now - legality: The education thread contains many, many posts where parents have taken children out of school - short term and long term - 'illegally'. How many of those threads suggest demanding that they take them back and 'comply to the letter of the law?' How many people here have smoked in a place where it's no longer permitted? Talked on the mobile while driving a car? used a disabled badge for parking when the person the badge was issued for isn't actually present?

'Law', in that sense, is completely inflexible. It is there to protect people/society/property etc from abuse, neglect, endangerment etc etc etc etc., and it is entirely sensible in that respect. But if a parent and school agree a course of action and both sides can see and are agreed that it is for the benefit of the child - which is what I read in the original post - then to undermine that act of cooperation and mutual support and flexibility (and with it probably the entire relationship between school/home and/or child/school - and lets face it there's plenty of evidence of those sorts of situations already on the boards) is, IMO a bias. And an irresponsible one at that! It draws a line between school home where each sees the other as the enemy and actually erodes the channels of communication rather than improving them. Is that what 'IPSEA' and ACE intend?

 

In the very simplest terms, i looked at an Original Post where a parent felt fairly confident that the school was working with her and her child to do the best for her child. That trust doesn't appear to be there any more, and IMO that is not a good thing - whether it complies with the 'letter of the law' or not.

I would add that in my negotiations with the school over various problems there are things i have dig my heels in about (I don't think anyone will have any illusions about my capacity for this! ) and things i have let slide and concessions have been made on both sides. Had I taken the kind of 'us and them' stance that seems the norm on the boards I have no doubt that the home/school relationship could have broken down very easily, and I also have no doubt that my son's education would have suffered as a consequence.

 

I am not implying any criticism of the OP whatsoever(??? - please look at my first post in this thread ???) and I'm not implying any criticism of people offering sound advice for parents in conflict with schools: that's you infering, Kathryn. The difficulty I have is that I did not see any conflict, yet with the sole exception of my own post every other post has been based on the assumption that it exists. And that happens on the boards regularly.

 

Justine - sorry for being involved in somewhat derailing your thread. This also happens on the boards quite regularly - when I express opinions that are less than popular with the the majority. Generally the suggestion will be that I have 'derailed' it - though invariably if you look through you'll see that mostly I'm just responding to my opinions coming under fire and being directly 'called out', as it were, as is the case here

 

Now, finally: In answer to your latest post:

I think it makes absolute sense to ask the school for a letter detailing what they are doing/planning to do and why, and to establish the grounds, implications and legalities of that. I also think - with the one codicil I put in my original post (the factor of not being at school becoming a reward) - that 'flexi-schooling' offers a very sensible short-term solution to a situation that must be difficult for everyone concerned, but most importantly for your son. I also think it is in your best interests to foster the best possible relationship you can with the school, safeguarding your own and your child's interests within that relationship.

 

Hope that makes sense, and - more importantly - that it is helpful.

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited January 23, 2010 by baddad

[Mumble]

Hi sorry this post has turned into a debate,anyway when I tell the school that I have learnt from ACE that this is illegal,do I pronounce that as ACE or A.C.E? Sorry its a silly question but I dont want to look stupid.

Refer to it as the Advisory Centre for Education then you are definitely correct plus it looks like you've really been doing your homework.

[bid]

BD, I don't want to derail Justine's thread, so I am going to start a new thread in General Discussion to discuss your claims about the forum.

 

Bid

Edited January 23, 2010 by bid

[justine1]

Refer to it as the Advisory Centre for Education then you are definitely correct plus it looks like you've really been doing your homework.

Thank you mumble thats very good advice <'>

 

Thank you baddad,its not that I no longer trust the school because of what anyone has said on the forum,but I have to cover my back just in case.Also I am new to this so I am most grateful to all of you for your advice,ultimatley it is my decision whether I take it or not.It has at least given me something to think about.Yes,I think it is a good solution for now and I wouldnt have considered it if I thought it wasnt practical.I know he is entitled to go to school full time but if there is nothing in place to safe guard him and other children then it is for the best,its all well and good saying its the schools problem but I dont want him to feel alienated etc. I do have my reservations in that it may not work out but feel I need to do what I think is best and it is something short term then we can explore other possibilities,so you totally right there.

 

Again I just want to thank everyone it has been hard on me to ake all this in as I am on my own so its comforting to share.

[JsMum]

Sorry I have another question.I have just read about flexi schooling,so how do I know the school will not claim this is flexi schooling? As they would say its an agreement between us and therefore not illegal.I know that either way I need to get a letter stating exactly what and why he is at home in the afternoons.

 

So instead of me rushing up to them saying what they doping is illegal,should I rather ask them to explain and put in writing exactly what it is exclusion or flexi schooling.

 

Thank you.

 

 

I did flexi schooling with J because he could not cope in school all day, he didnt have a full time statement either, so technically he could only attend part time, the flexi school started after J was signed off sick for 8weeks from his GP, in the hope that he would recieve more apropriate support, but the LEA insisted that there wasnt any thing available, my son was extreamly challenging, aggressive and at times violent, that the prospect of J full time hit me like a brick and I went back to school with my tail between my legs and discussed with the Head teacher the situation, together we devised a plan that J would attend fun activites, and subjects where he had 1-1 TA, he attened very sparidaclly but it gave me a source of support from the Headteacher and his TA, and for us it was all that was on offer as sadly at the time social services greatly let us down, so we tried in vain to keep J at school for short periods even, over time it did not work well, Js refusal worsened, and in the end he closed down, wouldnt get out of bed, dressed, breakfast in fear it would result in attending school, if I used physical force, he punched me in my face, kick me in my tummy, barge me into furniture and walls.

 

It was extream violence and the GP and the Headteacher agreed that any violence then any attempts to get J to school stopped and I logged every day for evidence.

 

In the end J did only 29 days, with me trying my best to get him to school, his statement was eventually extended to full time but he only did one day, he didnt attend any more after that.

 

Non of his days where unathorised absences but the LEA where trying to get me to sign a parent contract! this I feel was all done because I was going to tribunal, in the end I went to the manager of the School welfare and explained the situation, in the end that was called off.

 

When we were going to tribunal for a specialist school the LEA tried to suggest that the flexi schooling was agreed by me, but this was only because no other suitable education was offered.

 

Anyway flexi schooling isnt really suitable for children who generally are not coping in a mainstream setting, you also say that he did better in the afternoons and worser in the morning, for us this was the other way round, by 1pm J had enough, he couldnt concentrate, socialise, interact he was withdrawing and looking at dots on the wall.

 

I personally feel that your son should be having an assessment of his needs and for a true resemble of his needs they need to see him there all day, I think the other reason they want to send him home is to prevent any further exclusions.

 

JsMumxxx

 

Edited January 23, 2010 by JsMum

[justine1]

I did flexi schooling with J because he could not cope in school all day, he didnt have a full time statement either, so technically he could only attend part time, the flexi school started after J was signed off sick for 8weeks from his GP, in the hope that he would recieve more apropriate support, but the LEA insisted that there wasnt any thing available, my son was extreamly challenging, aggressive and at times violent, that the prospect of J full time hit me like a brick and I went back to school with my tail between my legs and discussed with the Head teacher the situation, together we devised a plan that J would attend fun activites, and subjects where he had 1-1 TA, he attened very sparidaclly but it gave me a source of support from the Headteacher and his TA, and for us it was all that was on offer as sadly at the time social services greatly let us down, so we tried in vain to keep J at school for short periods even, over time it did not work well, Js refusal worsened, and in the end he closed down, wouldnt get out of bed, dressed, breakfast in fear it would result in attending school, if I used physical force, he punched me in my face, kick me in my tummy, barge me into furniture and walls.

 

It was extream violence and the GP and the Headteacher agreed that any violence then any attempts to get J to school stopped and I logged every day for evidence.

 

In the end J did only 29 days, with me trying my best to get him to school, his statement was eventually extended to full time but he only did one day, he didnt attend any more after that.

 

Non of his days where unathorised absences but the LEA where trying to get me to sign a parent contract! this I feel was all done because I was going to tribunal, in the end I went to the manager of the School welfare and explained the situation, in the end that was called off.

 

When we were going to tribunal for a specialist school the LEA tried to suggest that the flexi schooling was agreed by me, but this was only because no other suitable education was offered.

 

Anyway flexi schooling isnt really suitable for children who generally are not coping in a mainstream setting, you also say that he did better in the afternoons and worser in the morning, for us this was the other way round, by 1pm J had enough, he couldnt concentrate, socialise, interact he was withdrawing and looking at dots on the wall.

 

I personally feel that your son should be having an assessment of his needs and for a true resemble of his needs they need to see him there all day, I think the other reason they want to send him home is to prevent any further exclusions.

 

JsMumxxx

Thank you Js mum

That is interesting and helpful.Sorry maybe you misunderstood, Sam doesnt do better in the afternoons,he is very "up and down" some days he can be fine from morning until I collect him but sometimes he has a very bad morning and good afternoon other times a very good morning and a terrible afternoon,nowdays it is mostly the afternoons.He is really tired and even the head has said he is worn out by 2pm.

 

He has told me some interesting things about lunchtime.He says(and my eldest confirmed this)that the dinner ladies keep urging him to eat,at home he needs more time to eat,but at school they obviousley stick to a certain time limit.He also said at lunch the other kids chew with the mouths full and this puts him off his food,generally speaken he hates the food they serve and when he comes home he is starving!!!I did try packed lunch but he never ate that either,just the fruit,he only eats peanut butter and they dont allow it.

 

I have spoken to his father who doesnt want to acknowledge he has AS and is just blaming the school,so I think what might happen is he will move to his fathers and change schools then at least he can see for himself.I am going to wait and see what the ed phsch says first as she is coming on Wednesday,then I will see.I think we may be lucky and if he is at a diferent school to his brothers he may be better or things may get worse.I just want to try everything at this point.

 

Thank you everyone.

[JsMum]

I personally do not think it is in the best interest of your son to be sent to his father to live and move school all just to prove a point, your son will become very confused and disorientated, your a good mother, you dont have to do this, you dont have to pass him to his father just because he does things for him and not you, you have done nothing wrong.

 

I wouldnt uproot him, thats for sure, it will only prolong his needs, the next school may well just sit on the fence and suggest his behaviour is down to the changes! new school, living with his single dad, exct....

 

JsMumxxx

 

[justine1]

I personally do not think it is in the best interest of your son to be sent to his father to live and move school all just to prove a point, your son will become very confused and disorientated, your a good mother, you dont have to do this, you dont have to pass him to his father just because he does things for him and not you, you have done nothing wrong.

 

I wouldnt uproot him, thats for sure, it will only prolong his needs, the next school may well just sit on the fence and suggest his behaviour is down to the changes! new school, living with his single dad, exct....

 

JsMumxxx

Thank ou its a good point <'> I have not decided yet.The thing is I am starting Uni in Sept,I have four kids I am trying to think how I am going to delegate my time especially if the school phone me everyday to fetch him early or exclude him.His younger brother may be moving in with his dad,because of his eatin problems we have discussed it for a year now but now it seems it may be the best thing.So it may not be much of an upheavel for him.Also I am likely to be moving closer to my ex so it maybe "workable"

 

I havent decided anything yet.In the meantime I need to speak to the head on Monday and get things sorted now I know all the jargon and legallities.

[JsMum]

Thank ou its a good point <'> I have not decided yet.The thing is I am starting Uni in Sept,I have four kids I am trying to think how I am going to delegate my time especially if the school phone me everyday to fetch him early or exclude him.His younger brother may be moving in with his dad,because of his eatin problems we have discussed it for a year now but now it seems it may be the best thing.So it may not be much of an upheavel for him.Also I am likely to be moving closer to my ex so it maybe "workable"

 

I havent decided anything yet.In the meantime I need to speak to the head on Monday and get things sorted now I know all the jargon and legallities.

 

 

I personally read it that your feeling some what overwhelmed and maybe because his dad gets better results its better than you struggling, dont do this because you are somewhat feeling like your failing in this, you have a very difficult job and you have it times four, its clear your son needs more support at school, and possibly another setting.

 

It could lead to further emotional issues that the system might blame his behaviour onto.

 

JsMumxxx

 

[Suze]

My son struggled at primary school with the dinner routine, he also complained about people eating and chewing around him, the noise smells and general visual impact of the dining hall were too much for him, his reaction was to shut down and switch off and afternoons for him meant sitting in a trance like state.Anyhow autism support suggested he be allowed to eat his packed lunch in his class room , this helped him a great deal.I work as a mid-day assistant (dinner lady ) and we have several kids who are allowed to do this for sensory reasons, one is partially sighted the other autistic , they are alot more settled this way.My son is now at high school and he has always eaten his packed lunch in the autism resource which is nice and quiet and has a member of staff there too, so he is thankfully still happy.

[baddad]

Hi justine1 - Just a quickie, but I just wanted to say that I agree that you shouldn't think about changing your son's living/school arrangements 'just to prove a point'... However, I also think that if you genuinely believe it will benefit him, benefit you and benefit the rest of your family it is not something you should 'reject' because others might negatively judge you for it...

I said it in earlier posts, and i'll say it again: I believe your capacity to see your son's relationship with his dad for what it is - rather than seeing it as a negative judgement against you - is a huge accomplishment in a culture where children are often 'played off' between parents who have separated. I also think the focus you have on your individual/collective responsibility as parents, rather than as 'ex-partners' is inspiring...

Many people here will be only to willing to tell you how hard I am to impress, but I do believe absolutely that if more separated couples could take the kind of long term and pragmatic (and I mean that in the sense of distancing yourself from knee-jerk and instinctive responses rather than to suggest a lack of emotion) view of their children's needs that the world would be a happier and healthier place...

I think if you apply that degree of reasoning and consideration to all of your interactions with your kids then whatever you decide will probably work, because I don't think the physical locations will imply any sort of 'loss'.

Very, very best, and apologies in advance if the above came out a bit 'gushy' It is late on a Saturday night (which means I've been at the winebox!), and I've always been a firm advocate for sensible rather than emoshunal responses to difficult situations

 

L&P

 

BD

[Kathryn]

Been out all day which is why I'm responding at this unearthly hour!

 

Justine - I stand by everything I said about informal exclusion - (and I recommend you read it all in the guidance and advice published by other organisations so you know it's not just me on my high horse! ). I may not have made myself clear though. I was mainly focusing on the recent request to take your son home during lunchtimes, rather than the part days you have agreed with the school and LA, although both are legally dodgy as things stand at the moment. However I never intended to suggest that you should set yourself against the school and go in all guns blazing to sort this out. (not suggesting this was your interpretation, but others may have inferred this from my posts). Maintaining a good working relationship between you and the school is obviously in your son's best interests, as is acknowledging the good things they have done - and tried to do.

 

Re the part time days: even if you agree that it's the best solution for the moment in the interests of your son, I think your suggestion is a good one: to ask the school/LA to clarify in writing exactly what the status is of these part time days, also how long the arrangement will last, and what will happen after that. It might be a good idea to mention Statutory Assessment as well and say that you intend to start the process. Ask to see your son's school record too: that way you will be able to see exactly how any absences are being recorded - schools have various codes they must use in the register to denote authorised absence, illness, exclusion etc.

 

As for the lunchtime exclusion: this appears to be a less constructive reaction to a situation the school can't cope with, and your posts hint that this may continue indefinitely at considerable inconvenience to your whole family until your son finally gets the right support. Asking for any lunchtime absences to be documented as an official exclusion is not a hostile response in my opinion - for a start it provides clear proof that your son is struggling in mainstream, and because following the proper exclusion procedures makes a bit of work for the school, they may themselves put a bit more pressure on the LA to sort things out. Even if the school are supportive, you've suggested that there still seems to be a lot of "foot dragging" here and all I'm suggesting is that you use the official procedures to move the situation on. Diplomacy is everything: it doesn't have to be all out war - you could have a congenial discussion with the school and be completely open about about why you're asking for these steps to be taken - after all, both you and the school want the same end result: that your son gets more support and is in the right educational environment.

 

Hope I've expressed myself better and good luck next week - follow you own instincts as I'm sure you will , and I really hope things move forward very soon. <'>

 

It's pronounced "Ace" to rhyme with "race" by the way.

 

 

(Baddad there's a lot in your later posts above that I would want to challenge but I don't want this thread to go off topic again -sorry Justine!- so I'll post in the other thread).

 

K x

Edited January 24, 2010 by Kathryn

[baddad]

Oh - just wanted to add to the post I made last night...

I do think children of single dads have many disadvantages over children who have single mums - sadly our society responds very differently to lone male parents...

That said, though, I think many of those difficulties are diminished when parents stay on good terms (which also, IMO applies in cases where children remain with mum) and the child still effectively 'lives' (i.e. socialises) with both parents.

In any event' i think it does need to be taken into account when thinking about living arrangements even though inm real terms it means pandering to a social bias that perpetuates the problems male parent's can face.

 

Hope that makes sense

 

L&P

 

BD

[justine1]

I agree baddad.In some aspects my ex is a better parent than me,I am not saying I feel inadequate as a parent,but just being honest.He can definatley cook wayyy better than I could and is a natural in the kitchen

 

I also think no matter how hard a single mum tries to be both mum and dad,I feel kids need both parents and as sexist as this may sound I find as my boys get older I cant talk to them about "the birds and the bees" and other things boys talk about.I also have to behave differently,for example I migh have bathed with the door open when they little but cant do that with a (nearly) 10 yr old in the house.

 

Again as far as my third son Dan goes he is and has always been closer to his dad and if he thrives better with his dad,and I know he does,than thats where he should be,my ex has not agreed to it for a year because he thinks youger kids should be with their mother and he never wanted to separate him from his brothers but since there has been no improvement in his eating habits and his geneal happiness he is now seriousley thinking about it,he has even applied to a school near him.But like I say we have both disgussed it in great detail for over a year,its not something I just woke up and said "here take your son" It is hard to deal with that he is closer to his dad and will be very hard if he does live with him but it could even strengthen my relationship with him.

 

As for Sam I am not sure what to do as I have said I need to explore every other option first he has only had his dx for a month so as hard as things are I need to take time,I just think it is a possibilty that he can be with his dad if all else fails.Especially if he gets permanantly excluded because there is not much choice of schools down my end but there are loads,even the speacial ASD school I mention,where my ex lives.

 

Anyway thank you all,I will go and discuss things with the head tomorrow and see what to do.The ed physch is coming on wed so I am looking forward to it.I have also typed my request for a stat assesment and will post that tomorrow.I thought that I had to wait for the ed physch to come first!

[Suze]

Best of luck today Justine, hope it goes well with the Head, please consider my earlier post regarding eating in the classroom etc, it took or maybe in his "safe place! you mentioned.When my son was at primary they made this allowance for him and it helped him enormously.best wishes suzex

[justine1]

Best of luck today Justine, hope it goes well with the Head, please consider my earlier post regarding eating in the classroom etc, it took or maybe in his "safe place! you mentioned.When my son was at primary they made this allowance for him and it helped him enormously.best wishes suzex

Thank you so much Suze.I dont know why they havent thought of doing tat before seems like common sense.I can see his playtime aggression maybe directly related to the eating issues,that my opinion not there to see for myself though!Thank you again <'> <'>

[Sally44]

Thank you very much baddad and Karen A.I didthink about asking for it in writing but then assumed that cause she had contacted LA these no need,but I think I should definatley cover my own back in case LA come back claiming they know nothing of it!

 

The head stressed it was not an exclusion,so I am definatley confused,so I will go and have a word with her.I know they are not meeting his needs but she is adamant there is nothing furthur they can do and have to wait for the ed physch and autism teacher to come in.They also have a special needs teacher who comes in twice a week and he goes to nurture group,he is on SA+ and I did check all incidents are being recorded back in Dec.I think I will speak to her again on Monday just to clear things up,I will request a letter stating that the reasons why he needs to be home in the afternoons and that they cant cope and also that its theirs and the LA's decision.On the day he went under the table the teacher was on her own no TA so she didnt know what to do and they say the other kids are thinking he gets away with everything,like swearing and disrespecting adults.

 

Ultimatley I can see him spiralling out of control,it is something I have considered for a few months now so its not a hasty decision.I feel as Karen A said it may not make a difference and his behaviour may still get worse and I mentioned this to the head as he sometimes has bad mornings and good afternoons and vice versa,but I do feel its worth a try and for now he has not been permanantley excluded and I do want to avoid this for as long as possible.Anything is worth a try.

 

Thank you again.

 

 

I totally agree that the half day in school suggestion maybe the school trying to be helpful to your son who appears not to be coping well, or has behavioural issues that need addressing and some appropriate ones being taught to him. But as Karen said it is also ilegal.

It is a very good suggestion to get all this in writing. But what I found in my situation, is that teachers, Heads, and even professionals and perfectly able to "say things to you", but putting that in writing is a totally different ball game because it then becomes your evidence.

At my son's previous school, when I explained to the Head 'why' I needed certain letters from them explaining my sons reaction to certain situations and how long it took two teachers to calm him down etc, then she agreed to put that in writing. But all Heads find it very hard to put anything in writing which may appear to be a criticism of their staff. And it is my understanding that LEA maintained schools find it very hard to put in writing that a child is not suitable for a mainstream provision. Of course it does happen.

I think that if you make it very clear that you are looking for ASD specific then the school is more likely to back this up. If, for example, you were attempting to keep your child mainstream it would be much harder for school to opening put in print what their opinion was.

As for LEA professionals. There job is not easy. Their employer funds SEN provision. There is a conflict of interest. So you need to go by the Code of Practice regarding all issues ie. education, behavioural issues, social issues etc.

I was verbally promised alot by my own LEA and the EP. None of it happened. Infact when I was in the process of getting the proposed statement and mentioned the placement I knew my son needed, the LEA were obstructive and lied to me and threatened me. I have the letters from the Autism Outreach Teacher and the Parent Partnership agreeing with the things that were said to me at meetings we all attended.

I don't want to make your paranoid. Just protect your interests by getting things in writing. IPSEA and ACE can help you alot with template letters and by telling you what the law is.

 

[justine1]

Thank you for all your replies.I haVe spoken to the head and we are agreeing on flexi schooling for a three week period,I will get it in writing today it will state the code for the register as well,after the three weeks the behaviour support team will start a 6 week programme of new strategies.One of the strategies will be that he is to eat with his younger brother as he eats in a classroom with 3 other kids so this may be easier.

 

We will then wait and see what the ed physch says and the autism advisory teacher on Wed,send there reports off to accompany the stat assesment request,which I have sent off today.The head thinks it will be six weeks until we know what happening.

 

Thank you all again. <'>

[baddad]

Thank you for all your replies.I haVe spoken to the head and we are agreeing on flexi schooling for a three week period,I will get it in writing today it will state the code for the register as well,after the three weeks the behaviour support team will start a 6 week programme of new strategies.One of the strategies will be that he is to eat with his younger brother as he eats in a classroom with 3 other kids so this may be easier.

 

We will then wait and see what the ed physch says and the autism advisory teacher on Wed,send there reports off to accompany the stat assesment request,which I have sent off today.The head thinks it will be six weeks until we know what happening.

 

Thank you all again. <'>

 

Yay!!

Really really hope the six weeks and other strategies can help, whatever your eventual decision about his long term education.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Karen A]

Good point. And one, I admit, I had failed to consider when responding earlier...

I guess I just saw the op saying she felt the school were doing all they could followed by another post saying they were acting illegally, that by not doing it 'by the book' they could jeapordise the OP's attempts to get a statement and that a similar attempt at working with the school had backfired badly on another member because the school had manipulated the situation to make accusations against the parent etc, and I took it out of context.

 

So apologies for that, but I do stand by what I said about the culture of 'blame' that exists on the forum and the lack of willingness for cooperation, which I've said many times before and will doubtless say again (and which I did say was a general not specific observation).

 

And I do agree fully with taking a 'belt and braces' approach and getting everything in writing, which again I have said many times (and will doubtless say again) and which I actually reiterated in my post.

 

Hope that clears things up; and apologies again Karen A if I misinterpreted the motivator behind what I agree in general terms is very good advice.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

I had posted a response.

However I have the utmost respect for Kathryn.

As she has specifically said that she does not want to take the thread off topic again I have decided to remove my later contribution.

I don't think I want to be invloved in the other thread.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Karen A

[Karen A]

Thank you for all your replies.I haVe spoken to the head and we are agreeing on flexi schooling for a three week period,I will get it in writing today it will state the code for the register as well,after the three weeks the behaviour support team will start a 6 week programme of new strategies.One of the strategies will be that he is to eat with his younger brother as he eats in a classroom with 3 other kids so this may be easier.

 

We will then wait and see what the ed physch says and the autism advisory teacher on Wed,send there reports off to accompany the stat assesment request,which I have sent off today.The head thinks it will be six weeks until we know what happening.

 

Thank you all again. <'>

 

 

<'> <'>

I hope things do work out for you.

Karen.

[Sally44]

It will be difficult for you to return to Uni.

I was 18 months into a degree course when I dropped out. I had done a 3 year access course prior to that.

There is another post about parents changing jobs or leaving work because of their child on the spectrum.

That isn't necessarily the fault of the child. Many times it is about not having the right educational or out of school provision available. And as you know ASD is 24/7 - so studying at home can be diffiuclt - but not impossible.

There are also professional mums and dads out there who manage to keep their careers. Hats off to them.

 

Sometimes, if there is a parent available, it can be an easy option for the school to phone home for the parent to come and collect the child. If that is not a possibility that can sometimes mean the right provison has to be provided earlier because there are no other options. For example my son vomits when anxious. I was so fed up of having to go and collect him from school that I stopped answering my phone. That meant they had to deal with it and therefore I believe they increased supports or used strategies to ensure he did not get to that level of anxiety. Afterall no one likes having to deal with vomit. And therefore you may have to take this approach with all your children if you begin this course.