Advice needed!!!

[loupin]

Morning all! I cant sleep as i'm so worried and upset! My son (ASD Semmantic Pragmatic& Learning difficulty) Is becoming increasingly aggressive towards me and his brother(4). Usually trigged by nothing huge and always after school. Last nights was over tomato in his bolognaise. It resulted in a smashed money box his bed board being thrown accross the room, my kitchen door being kicked. all in all about 20 mins of screaming rage. After that i convinced!him to have a lavender bath, nice music etc and it all calmed down, mean while had to call my mother for backup to have little ones. What is awful is that he then becomes his usual gorgeous self with no remorse and no real recollection of the incident. My other half wants to punnish the behavior by threatening to take something away but i dont as he has no control of himself and i know that if something triggers a tantrum then he becomes less likely than ever to remember a threat let alone be influenced by it. He is also becoming more autistic if thats possible? Last night after the bath he was flapping his arms and hopping/spinning around the kitchen, like his body was totally in control of him. He couldnt sit still. He has gone back to only eating certain foods doesnt want any one to look at him or talk to him other than me or his dad. he is doing well at school and keeps a lid on everything all day so i am very grateful for that but i want to have some time with my boys that isnt like a wrestling match, shutting my little ones in another room so they dont get hurt.

Thank you for reading my ramble i actually feel better writing it down!! Time to get every one ready for school! Thanks. xxxxxxxxxx

[nellie]

Hi loupin, <'>

 

It sounds as if your son is managing to hold it all together at school and blowing a gasket when he comes home. It can be quite scary for your son and the family, as you say, he's quite oblivious to his part in it when he eventually calms down.

 

The Jekyll and Hyde character is discussed at length on this topic. You will find some useful information from Rita Jordan and Tony Attwood on there, (page2) it might be worth showing this to the school and ask them if they can give him more support, ofcourse they have to understand that he's not coping and why.

 

The passive child/pretending to be 'normal', Meeting the needs of the passive child.

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.ph...;hl=jekyll+hyde

 

Another useful topic

The rage cycle, stratgies for AS meltdowns

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.ph...ic=7706&hl=

 

You have my sympathy, it's not an easy problem to deal with. Hang on in there.

 

Nellie <'> <'>

[badonkadonk]

Hi Loupin,

 

Firstly don't worry! There are lots and lots of mums and dads on here that have the same problems. I know I'm not a parent but I have seen more than one plea for help over aggressive children in the short time I've been on this board so don't feel alone and try not to feel like it's just your son. That doesn't make it any easier to deal with I know but it might be good information to give your partner so that they can start to try and see past the naughty behaviour.

 

It's most probable, though I won't say for sure because I'm soooo not an expert, that the aggression and anger is a build up from having to deal with school all day. I know that's how I used to get and I still get like it now if I have been out all day.

 

So, like I said these are not professionally recommended methods/explanations just things I've learnt to do/about myself over the years. If you've not seen me on the board before I'm 23, female and have Aspergers.

 

Buy a punch bag. Really. Buy a punch bag and get a couple of sets of gloves at the same time. One pair you can keep near the punch bag and another spare in the house. Hang the bag in the garage if possible, outside/in a bedroom/spare room if not. When you can see a meltdown coming on or even while the meltdown is happening, encourage your son to go and use the punchbag and get his feelings out of his system. Don't do this in a negative way like "oh you're off again go to the punchbag" but rather, "are you feeling upset inside? Do you want to go and get all the feelings out?"...I dunno, I don't talk to kids much can you tell lol but something encouraging rather than discouraging if that makes sense. Even if he's already "blown his top" and is in full meltdown if you can do it and it's safe for you to do so, drag him kicking and screaming to the bag and keep turning him round to face the bag until he realises that it's not ok to hit you but ok to hit the bag. Tell him this as well and eventually it should sink in. I know it sounds like hard work, perhaps even harder work than just trying to accomodate him when he kicks off now, but a little more hard work could mean a happier environment at home.

 

The meltdown will always probably be sparked off by something neurotypicals see as "something stupid" like tomatoes in the spag bol. Sometimes the trigger which tips me over is something that I see or smell but with me most of the time it's something that I hear. My ears are terrible so it's usually an advert or kids playing outside or even the sound of someone elses voice talking on the phone. It's like a kettle and the intial little thing will make the switch turn on and then throughout the day/period of time until boiling point the "kettle" keeps boiling away and getting higher and higher until eventually DING! I'm done. I'm a bit useless at metaphors, I seem to have turned into a microwave at the end so I hope that still makes sense . Show this to your partner as well (hello btw if you read this!) and perhaps you can both begin to understand that this huge meltdown hasn't actually come from tomatoes in the spag bol, even though this still will be a valid source of upset for your son, it's come from numerous things that have built up over a period of time. And even if you think tomatoes in the spag bol is a ridiculous reason to have a meltdown for your son and for others with asds out there, it really, really isn't. I've been in that situation where a food has been on my plate that I don't like and it's really hard to describe. It's like a wave of panic and nausea and sheer "ohmygodwhat'sthatfooddoingonmyplate" mode. Because one we don't like the food anyway/are not into the food at the minute and two it's that whole change thing again, we are frightened about the taste of that food in our mouths and frightened of it contaminating our other food. I find it hard to understand that if foods touch they don't necessarily transfer their own taste onto the other food. That make sense? I know a lot of the time it does but for e.g. with the spag bol again I would find it hard to believe that the spag bol would not, not taste of tomato anymore even if you picked them all out. The fact that the meat and other ingredients would probably overpower any last remaining traces of tomato would not register because I'm too busy going "ohmygodwhat'sthatfooddoingonmyplate".

 

So, in a longwinded way, I'm trying to say really try hard not to have a go at him when this happens. I know it seems silly and totally irrational but to us it's not and we really can't help it. Try and comfort him but don't pander to him at the same time, he still needs to learn boundaries like any child and will probably start taking the mickey and being really picky if you over-comfort him or start cooking a new meal each time. Encourage him to say all the little things that bother him, by getting the problem out of his system as soon as it happens and if he feels comfortable in doing so and knows that he's not going to get shouted at for it, it could reduce the massive meltdowns or reduce their intensity at least. They're not going to go away though because school is full of minefields for ASD kids and all the little things that bother him during the day are going to keep bubbling away until he gets home because if he tries to express/get it out at school guess what he's "being naughty" and that's a detention or report for him.

 

Anyway I don't know if that helps at all, I know it's not really methods to get him to stop taking it out on you but sometimes just understanding the meltdowns can help you to help your children. Incidentally if punchbags don't work try getting a roll of cheap wallpaper and pin strips up on the wall and give him big fat pens to scribble all over the wallpaper with. Don't read them either (or at least not while he's looking) and make sure he knows it's ok to write what he wants and to take them down and put them in the bin afterwards. Another thing you could try is getting him to verbally meltdown instead of physically....I don't know if you've seen the advert when the kid in the supermarket has a tantrum and instead of telling him off or walking away the mum also gets down on the floor and starts having a tantrum? You could try something similar but in a positive way as this is something my boyfriend has started doing with me. If he sees a meltdown happening, at home anyway we might get arrested if I did it out in public, he will stop look at me and say come on lets scream. So he'll start going "arrrrrrragghhhhhhhhh" and that makes me go "arrrrrrraggggghhhhh" and then he starts jumping up and down so I do too and while I'm getting it all out of my system I'm hanging onto him jumping up and down and eventually I'll look at him and he looks such a plonker jumping up and down that I inevitably burst out laughing and the meltdown is diffused. This might work but it might also be something that only works for me and Bob

 

Hope some of that helps!

 

Emily

xxx

 

sorry for the length, as usual lol, I have no idea how to edit myself!

[phoebe]

wow badonkadonk - thank you. What a helpful reply. Many of us out here identify with the problems Loupin has raised and have holes in walls to prove it.

 

I'm off to buy a punchbag!!

 

I have just been writing my representation to the lea as my son also goes into meltdown at school and we are still trying to get him some help there - perhaps I will print your reply and buy a punchbag for the school too - might save any more destrution of school property.

 

Loupin - how old is your son and has he been able to do any anger management yet? I know this may sound a bit ridiculous, but some of the things Badonkadonk has said about things building up and building up, these feelings are explained and dealt with in AM training.

 

There is a fab book called A VOLCANO IN MY TUMMY which explains in a childs terms about anger and the changes that hapopen to your body.

 

After my sons last Exclusion, (he is 8) when he hurt the teacher and wreckd the classsroom as well as the quiet room )after they carried out a controlled restraint and removed him there), I did some exercises from this book with him. The one that he really identified with was a simple picture of a thermometer up the page with lines beside it that they can write on their feelings and what is triggering them, from when it first starts and he is feeling just a little agitated to boiling point. Recognising these changes should help them take time out before ever getting to meltdown. He has copies of these he keeps at school so if he is having a day when he feels he is losing it, he can try to manage himself better. A simpler one is a grudge pot, where they write down their frustraions and out them in the pot. It is a book that has been put together to help children from 6yrs up, but if your child is HF you could start sooner.

 

It sounds to me like the school could be more helpful. Try talking to the SENCO (They may well have a copy of the book you could borrow as it is put together with lesson plans and has an educational stance), but mainly you need to try and stop the triggers building up throughout the day and only they can help with this.

Does he have a place where he can go for time out in the day?

Does he have any support at play- time?

Again, I feel I could go on and on, but <'> <'> <'> <'> <'> , please take care of you. hope you find something that helps.

 

Love and hugs

Phoebe

[loupin]

Thank you so much for the replies. I will definately look into the punch bag idea. When the weather was better i did send him out on to the trampoline after school which did help. My son is 6. I did try using colours to describe how he was feeling last night, because of his communication problems he doesn't express himself very well verbally and cant take in my responses when he starts to get stressed. I am sure the problems are stemming from the stress of holding it together at school all day. They are a wonderfully supportive school and the team that care for him seem ok to continue on as he is coping during the day, but i know that once the christmas silly season starts he will get worse. I would like to wrap him up and run up a snowy mountain and just wait christmas out in the peace!!( he loves the snow!)

going to do some more reading now!!

Thanks xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <'>

Have just read some of the links thank you. My son is at action plus and they are evidence collecting ready to apply for the statement in 6 months. In the mean time they feel school have enough provision i n place to support his needs. They also dont think that he will qualify for the extra hours now. Raeding the link made such sense as he really does pretend well. A lot of people are amazed that he has difficulties. I am due to see the psychologist soon I think i may insist that she go into school and observe him as she does believe me when i say he isn't coping.

<'>

Edited November 3, 2006 by loupin

[Jill]

Wow Badonkadonk what a brilliant post! BTW I think your metaphor is excellent

 

I can back up the punch bag idea. We bought one for The Boy last Christmas. Cuz he's only little we just got a small one from Boots of all places . It's the real maccoy - used for training for martial arts - but is specially designed for kids. Dunno if they'll have em this year or not. Good solid base cos you fill it with sand. If he gets physical we direct him to it. Sometimes he even goes to it himself these days and has a good thrash about

 

I must admit I really like the wallpaper idea / letting him vent by writing. Might try that one as he gets bigger.

 

PS Badonkadonk I love the idea of you and your fella letting it all out with a good scream and paddy. If ever I see the two of you, I might come over and join in. Sounds very liberating to me

[Kazzen161]

Everything you say is suggesting that he is getting stressed at school. Both my sons become more "autistic" the more stressed they are.

 

You need to work with the school to get them to acknowledge he is getting stressed there (even if he is covering it up well), and to put in strategies to help.

 

At home, it might be best to build in some "chill-out" time for your son as soon as he gets in from school - encourage him to do what calms him for a while. It is a bit like us if we have a bad day at work - we might want to come in and sit quietly with some music on and not speak to anyone for 30 minutes, while we calm ourselves down.

 

The book "Aspergers Syndrome and difficult moments: practical solutions for tantrums, rage and meltdowns" by B Smith Myles and J Southwick is excellent at explaining how little stresses build up until the child has a meltdown, but that we can prevent this by teaching the child to recognise they are stressed and strategies to reduce their stress. I also remember Tony Attwood explaining that once the child gets to a certain point there is nothing you can do to prevent the meltdown. Preventing the child reaching this point is the only way, and providing him with more acceptable ways of letting out the stress (trampolines are excellent).

 

Karen

[butterfingersbimbo]

yeah i have noticed this too with el and i think when they are good at pretending to be ok then the meltdowns can be even more of a shock, and it will only take something apparently trivial to set one off! of course to them its not trivial at all, its just the straw that breaks the camels back.....

 

i dont think he should be punished, after all he is only young and its not something he can control, he isnt even aware of what he is doing while he is in such a state.

 

hope he is better this evening, sending you a load of pos vibes, and loads of lavender <'>

[loupin]

thanks again every one! i have been trying to teach him to use colours to describe how he is feeling.red if cross he decided and yellow when feeling better. he has picked it up really quickly! he stayed with my parents last night and spent the whole night telling them RED every time they spoke!!! i'm going to get some more books as recommended! thanks xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <'>

[smiley]

loupin <'> <'> <'>

 

The 'joining in with a meltdown' thing Badonkadonk mentions works very, very well for my son.

 

Badonkadonk - as always Excellent advice

Edited November 4, 2006 by smiley

[oracle]

I tried melting down with my son - got the ides from the advert. It made him hysterical and twice as aggressive so I wont be doing that again

 

Back to Telephone Directories for us.

 

Oracle

[baddad]

Hi all -

 

Some excellent advice in all of the above responses, as always, but at risk of it coming back to bite me i am going to say that I believe there does need to be some sort of 'consequence' attached to this type of behaviour. Whatever the cause of anger (and believe me my son has some huge meltdowns so please don't think I'm preaching from 'on high') there has to be an acknowledgement of what are 'appropriate' and what are 'inappropriate' responses to it, and the only way to do that is to have some sort of direct consequence.

 

For the most part, responses like offering punchbags seem to act as 'negative reinforcers' while interventions that involve lots of discussion, 1-1 time etc are often viewed as 'rewards'...

 

I'm not saying that the punchbag isn't a good idea (though personally I think 'heavy pushing' against a solid object or even an adult when done in a controlled manner), but I do think that it can only ever be part of the solution (i.e. a tool to help dissipate the aggression appropriately) coupled with very definite indications that the inappropriate responses will not be condoned.

 

As always, I'd recommend '1,2,3, Magic' (there's a book on this available through any highstreet/online retailer) as an excellent tool for getting that all important message across - though as with everything it does need to be individualy tailored to the child - and further recommend the old favourites like Reward schemes/Star charts/Social stories etc. My own belief though, is that none of those other things can work if there isn't a tangible and immediate response that doesn't fall into the 'reinforcer' trap, and that any inconsistency will only make things worse...

 

One other thing that's a 'given' - ANY attempt to stop such behaviour will predict an initial escalation in exactly the things you're trying to resolve, and if you throw in the towel because of that it can only act as another reinforcer for the next time.

 

Very VERY best

 

L&P

 

BD <'>

[Kazzen161]

Perhaps it depends on the definition of meltdown - I mean when the child totally loses it - when you cannot reason with him - he is beyond even hearing what you are saying. These meltdowns are usually the result of lots of stressful things happening over the couse of hours or even days. All I could do when my son got to this stage was keep him safe and keep everyone else safe. My son hated having meltdowns - he woudl feel awful afterwards.

 

I remember Tony Attwood saying that if a child with AS is about to have a meltdown, and you offered him a million pounds if he didn't and told him you woudl cut his arm off if he did - he woudl still have the meltdown - at that stage it is beyond his control. It is important to work on preventing it getting to that stage( eg: the punch bag, time out, star charts), in all the ways discussed.

 

 

Karen

[smiley]

 

Thank you Karen for saying exactly what i've been thinking all day - i just haven't been able to put it into words!

 

Tried to waffle on a bit.......but i still can't seem to put my thoughts down into anything coherent