Social Niceities

[Mumble]

Hmm, I think I've spelt the title wrong . . .

 

Anyway - now I know my crappy and now sacked mentor talked a lot of <insert rude word>, but one thing she said to me on more than one occasion has stuck with me and is worrying me, so I'm hoping those of you who do things 'properly' (and of course, NT is the proper way ) can help me out.

 

At our first meeting (and repeated at our 2nd and 3rd meetings because I obviously didn't understand so needed to be tormented a little further in order to be moulded into a 'normal' ), our opening conversation went something like this:

 

Her: How are you?

Me: Fine thank-you (my standard response)

*pause of several blissful seconds of silence*

Her: Mumble, you are very rude and others will think you are rude too. If I ask you that question the conversation is supposed to go:

 

Person A: How are you?

Person B: I'm very well thank-you, how are you?

Person A: I'm very well too, thank-you.

 

And then we practiced it . . . And woe be tide (is that 3 words or 1??) if I added anything else or said the truth. Apparently even if you have a limb falling off, a protruding object sticking out of your chest with blood everywhere, your pet stick insect has just died etc. you both have to say that you are "very well thank-you".

 

Now my question is: What's the point????? If, a) you are not telling the truth anyway (which I find really difficult) and b)they already know what you are going to say, why do people go through this ritual, and why should I have to conform to something so utterly pointless and such a waste of time and effort. If people really cared enough to ask, they should be prepared to hear the truth - if they don't care then they shouldn't ask in the first place.

 

Now I've stuck with my "fine thank you" or "ok" response because it seems to keep the other person fairly happy and gets me out of a long conversation (and if I'm not fine it's pretty obvious!) and it's all that the people who know me expect from me. But useless mentor woman has got me really worried. Should I change? Why is such conversation 'expected'? Are there other stupid social 'conversation bits' that I'm totally missing to make people think I'm really rude. I don't want people to think that of me

[reggubasti]

"Games People Play" by EricBerne explains these rituals and why people (NTs) need them - being AS I don't get them, nor do I do them

 

woe betide is two words, betide meaning befall or come to

[Bard]

Think of social niceties as the oil in the engine, they help things run more smoothly, reduce friction etc.

It's not just ASDs that find this sort of thing confusing.

My postgraduate qualifications are in English as an Additional Language, specifically looking at the Indian sub-continent.

The people that I worked with found it hard to understand why we say thank you so often, use personal names, make direct eye contact, have a greater personal space requirement, to list but a fragment of the weird things that NT English society find necessary and polite.They were also learning about where to put inflection when speaking English, get it wrong and it sounds more aggressive to an NT listener.

I found that I had to learn new social skills if I wanted to build relationships with children, parents and EAL adults, and it's complicated and tiring to have to remember tiny details. Like learning a new language.

Why are you worried about stupid ex-mentor person? You know that she's rude, arrogant and loves to put you in your special box. Forget her, don't remember her poison.

In most cases, you only need to show willing with the first few steps or lines. Then you can stop, read a book or listen to your headphones. By engaging a little, you establish yourself as non-hostile, not dangerous and therefore safe. That's why people don't want a true answer, or any elaboration on the basic exchange. They don't want a relationship, or real information. I posted on another thread about helping B work out what to say and how to respond when out and about, as he is building life skills in the wider world.

In the evenings at our YH in Cheddar,the lounge often had 6 or 7 people in it, sharing space amicably but not talking much, or making eye-contact. 'May I sit here? ' 'Yes, of course ' "lovely weather' 'Do you mind if I put on the news?'

Very English!

Edited August 24, 2007 by Bard

[Tally]

"How are you" is just another way of saying hello really. In Ireland people say, "howyeh?" as all one word, and respond "howyeh," it's not even a question there.

 

I used to work with a guy who always said, "how are you," instead of hello. I just used to reply, "hello," and one day he asked me why I never tell him how I am. I said because you only have to say you are fine even when it is a lie so it's a stupid question anyway, and I though he was just saying hello . . . then he probably thought I was a right weirdo, which isn't too far from the truth!

 

I really don't know the answer, but I suppose returning the question could be a way of saying, "and I care about you too," even though they are still not supposed to answer honestly. I don't think it's a serious problem if you don't say it though. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Maybe you could just try it a few times and see if it works.

[cmuir]

Hi

 

You are who you are and I think it's wrong to try and mould you into becoming someone else. It's an entirely think to advise (not to bulldose!!!) on the other hand about social ettiquete.

 

I'm NT and I'm afraid I'm very much the type of person that speaks my mind, what you see is what you get kind of person. If I'm asked how I am, they get the truth - that of course depends on who's asking, how well I know them, etc. If it was someone I didn't know and they asked simply because it's one oz those things that people ask (and don't really want an answer!), then the response is 'fine thanks'. If it's someone I know, they'll get the truth (sometimes fine, otherwise not!)!

 

I think the question is about acceptance and whether you're content with who you are. If you want some guidance then that's fine; if not, that's fine too. Other people have to learn to accept you for who you are, even if on occasions, you may come across as being rude/blunt (some NT people can come across as being rude too). You come across as being very astute and I don't think you're missing anything.

 

Best wishes

 

Caroline.

[Mumble]

"Games People Play" by EricBerne explains these rituals and why people (NTs) need them - being AS I don't get them, nor do I do them

Thanks - I'll look into that book. Do you find it a problem (or more likely do you find that others (NTs) find it a problem that you do not do these? I've never done them, although I've only understood about AS and the link this year. I just don't see why I should have to change from what I'm comfortable with to make other people comfortable. Is that just selfish?

 

Why are you worried about stupid ex-mentor person? You know that she's rude, arrogant and loves to put you in your special box. Forget her, don't remember her poison.

It's not that easy - I wish I could forget her. I have scars on my hand that remind me of her everytime I look at them and I keep seeing images of her and the things she said - and it happens without me thinking or for no apparent reason and I can't control it - and it makes me terrified of having any other 'support'

 

By engaging a little, you establish yourself as non-hostile, not dangerous and therefore safe.

But why would I be considered dangerous just because I don't talk. This is what one of the stupid people who workin the kitchen where I live said to me, and I didn't understand it then and I still don't. Why is a silent person dangerous? Isn't that as bad as saying all people wearing head-scarves are terrorists? Why do people make a judgement without even knowing me?

 

And if I was to engage in these social niceities, how do you know who should speak first? I always wait for someone to speak to me because I'm so terrified of saying the wrong thing and making people think I'm ruder than they may think I am by not speaking.

 

In the evenings at our YH in Cheddar,the lounge often had 6 or 7 people in it, sharing space amicably but not talking much, or making eye-contact. 'May I sit here? ' 'Yes, of course ' "lovely weather' 'Do you mind if I put on the news?' Very English!

I hadn't thought about that for next week - I'd convieniently forgotten that my sister's always covered for me - oh well, by the end of next week the whole of Scotland will also know what a horrible, rude, self-centered, nasty person I am and I will have come to realise that I can't even do something as simple as go away by myself for a few days.

[Bard]

I just don't see why I should have to change from what I'm comfortable with to make other people comfortable. Is that just selfish?

Don't change if you're comfortable, and people will come to accept you as you are. There is no reason to alter any of your behaviour unless what you do has a genuinely negative impact on other people. Being quiet doesn't hurt anyone.

 

Why is a silent person dangerous? Isn't that as bad as saying all people wearing head-scarves are terrorists? Why do people make a judgement without even knowing me?

Lots of teenagers ask the same question when just hanging around, not bothering anyone, wearing hoodies. Young men who are at the monosyllabic stage are harrassed by many who can't cope with their limited conversations. There is nothing wrong or bad about them, yet again, it is what is perceived as normal that is causing the problem. A silent person, like a noisy teenager is not dangerous.

 

And if I was to engage in these social niceities, how do you know who should speak first? I always wait for someone to speak to me because I'm so terrified of saying the wrong thing and making people think I'm ruder than they may think I am by not speaking.

That's very polite.

 

There were people in the YH who didn't talk to anyone at all, for several days, and no one thought it was odd or strange. One man was reading his way through an enormous book on the American Civil War, and sat in the lounge every evening.

Of course you can go away for a wonderful trip without your sister and have a great time, and without her, you can walk as long and as far as you want to without ending up carrying her!

My uncle was once asked why he married his wife, what qualities had appealed.

He said 'She's no' a bletherer'

Not being a chatterbox is an attribute that many value.

Edited August 24, 2007 by Bard

[Juney]

Hi Mumble,

 

Don't worry about your what you're mentor says. I think this " how are you" thing is just an extension of "hello". this is probably of no help what so ever but if someone says to me how are you, I usually say "Not bad, thanks" - which means absolutely nothing really. A lot of the time I say " how are you?" because I feel I should say something. This is only people I know though, if its just someone I am passing who say hello to me, who are staying at the same place etc - I'd just say hello, or maybe just even smile.

 

So, just be yourself, say what you are comfortable with.

 

Have a brilliant trip away.

 

juney

Edited August 24, 2007 by Juney

[Mumble]

I don't think it's a serious problem if you don't say it though. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Maybe you could just try it a few times and see if it works.

Thanks Tally - I'm quite happy to join you in being thought of as 'a right wierdo' The trouble with trying is that I think it comes across as trying - it certainly doesn't feel natural and makes me very much more agitated.

 

Don't change if you're comfortable, and people will come to accept you as you are.

Well I suppose this is really the issue. The people I have any time for at my uni know who I am and how I am and they (I think) accept me for that. The people who don't accept me for that are not the sort of people I want to know anyway. I hadn't even twigged (why twigged - what's this to do with trees?) that my answer of 'fine, thanks' or 'OK' was unacceptable. I'd worked out by myself not to give a full answer to everyone (as cmuir says) but to judge who I'm talking to and the context and this seemed to suit me just fine. It was only after the mentor woman got really umpty about me not completing the 'how are you' sequence and asking the askerer how they are; when she told me how rude I was in not doing this, that I've begun to get really worried. I'll avoid people even more (yes that is possible!) now so they don't ask me so that I don't have to worry about being rude in not asking them.

[iwillholdon]

I think some of these conventions depend on what part of the country you live in. Where I am, the accepted "friendly greeting" for neighbour, acquaintance etc is "alright?" to which the reply is also "alright?" -- must be delivered with a questioning tone to the voice. After that you can carry on talking or leave it at that with "friendliness" satisfied. I found this really confusing when I moved here and I am NT -- spent ages replying "very well thank you" until I realised that wasnt what was expected. So what would your mwntor think of this??

 

Now I tend to say "not bad" or "fine thanks" unless I want to go into detail with the person. But I wonder the point your mentor may have been trying to make was the idea of reciprocating the greeting, as a convention. With friends I often add "what about you?" especially if I want to carry on the conversation.

 

The main thing though, is I dont think you should worry too much about the exact script your mentor recommends.

[Guest Lya of the Nox]

you are still letting this woman get to you!

<'>

u should do waht u are comfy with, i expect megzie to respond somehow, if she is able

 

but i also expect those who know her to reasie how hard it can be for her

this woman puts u on edge and is continuing it by asking you to behave in a way she thinks

 

people as me how i am, i say ok then they say dont lie tell the truth!!!!

so what do i need to say then??

[pearl]

What an interesting thread.

 

I just think of these things as "rules" - the actual meaning of the greeting sentence doesnt matter that much, like Bard says its social "oil".

 

Its good to be comfy - but also good to push yourself out of your comfort zone occasionally. (You have been doing that a lot anyway Mumble <'> )

 

I feel uncomfy with silence & fill it up with irritating "blether" - but I'm getting better. Took me years to realise it wasnt entirely up to me to make a conversation flow.

 

I have these kind of conversations with mr pearl ALL the time - he'll do, say (or not say) something which looks rude, & I worry about what other peeps think. He doesnt. I suppose I dont want peeps to think badly of him.

 

One flashpoint we ALWAYS have is tipping. PLEASE tip the taxi driver, I say. Why? He says. Because its WHAT YOU DO, I say. Well why should I? He says. Because he might be nasty if you don't, I say. Now I just tend to say, because its a RULE, and he can grudgingly accept that.

 

Social nuances - its a minefield innit?

[sash]

I am supposidly NT and find the whole 'niceties' thing hard. I have met so many people who say the 'right' things and seem friendly but then turn out not to be a very nice person at all!

If I ask someone how they are, I really do want to know and actually consider it a sign of trust if someone opens up and says they are having a bad time. Likewise if someone asks how I am I will tell them- depending how close I am to them and whether I trust them. Obviously if its someone Im not close to/dont feel comfortable with I'll not go into detail!!

 

Mumble I think you sound brill and don't worry about what that silly mentor said to you...she was hardly a good example of great conversation! sounds in fact like she was pretty unkind. at least you are thinking about how others may feel by the way you talk, she obviously didnt have the mental capacity to do that

 

Sash <'>

[Emum]

Another really good book for explaining all these kinds of things, is "Watching the English". Unfortunately I can't remember the author just at the moment. It has absolutely nothing to do with ASDs but I remember thinking as I read it, that it would be very helpful in this context.

 

It is basically a book written by an anthropologist about all kinds of english customs and unwritten rules, and the effect which breaking those rules has. It also explains why the english do things in a certain way, which is different to other nationalities (basically usually because of the effect of living on a small and fairly over-populated island)

 

It explains the "How are you ritual" as a form of grooming, where people engage in a ritual conversation with a very tightly defined script, to enable them to feel more comfortable and secure in each other's company, because each knows exactly what to expect from the other. Once the first awkwardness has been broken by using this formula the conversation can move onto other more challenging areas. There are other similar formulas which can be used, such as "Nice day, isn't it?"

 

The book also goes on to describe other unwritten rules of behaviour, such as only sitting in your back garden, not your front. It is a fascinating read, as lots of the things the author picks up on are deeply ingrained, but you don't realise you do them until it is pointed out to you! For someone with an ASD, who may not have picked up on the rule, I imagine it might be quite helpful because it gives the reason why people do this, so even if you think the reason is rubbish, at least you can see that there is at least some reason, rather than just a meaningless ritual designed to trip up the unwary.

[Bard]

The author is Kate Fox.

[Guest Lya of the Nox]

found this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1...3115259-0301403

 

which looks intersting but not in the same way as this discussion, but could be looked at

ohh shut up lya stop rambling lol

[pearl]

you do make me laugh Lya

[Mumble]

You're not rambling Lya!!! That is a good book - I read it in Waterstones plus the bigger dictionary edition the page you give also links to. I was going to buy myself a copy (apparently I can claim it on my disabled students allowance because my getting confussed by metaphor has a huge impact on my understanding and conversation skills). However, having looked at it several times, my concern was that it doesn't take into account that NTs mix up and rework their metaphors constantly - I wonder how you know what you're all talking about most of the time. Maybe you don't With the dictionary, as it's printed, it can't take account of this constant evolution so, particularly as I find it difficult to generalise - different word so not the same to me - it might not be so helpful. There, I'm rambling now

 

The "Watching the English" sounds like a book I will enjoy. Looks like I'm going to be getting in a pile of new reading material for September!!! What I really need is explanations. An explanation of "because" or "it's just what everyone does" is one of the things I find most infuriating.

[pearl]

Got it in one, Mumble.

We DONT know what we are talking about most of the time!

[Kathryn]

As a teacher of English as a foreign language, I often find myself having to look at our rituals through the eyes of people from other cultures - fascinating stuff.

 

As answers on this thread have demonstrated, even within our British culture there are so many different ways of greeting. And other cultures have their own way of doing it - in some African cultures where I come from, when greeting someone, it's practically obligatory to ask after the whole family as well as the individual, before you get down to what you really want to say. In other cultures, woe betide you if you use the incorrect grammatical form when addressing someone, or the wrong handshake.... All of us, embarking on a trip round the world, would get it wrong at some point, I guess.

 

Mumble, I must confess, it's something I struggle with a bit - especially on the phone. I never know how long the initial greeting should go on for. I know I've sometimes got it wrong on a street corner and too late realised that "how are you?" wasn't really an invitation to tell the person how awful I'm feeling right now - just a hurried greeting as our paths crossed. Conversely, I've sometimes gone into the doctor's surgery and answered the first question "how are you" with an automatic "fine thanks" - prompting the quizzical response "why are you here then?". Mumble, I'm aware that I sat next to you at the Greenwich meet and didn't speak to you at all - I wanted to but didn't have a clue how to start the conversation! For that I apologise. I'm better in print sometimes.

 

I like Emum's explanation, that the greeting ritual is a non threatening way of sizing up the other person, buying time before the real conversation begins. Talking about the weather achieves the same effect - it's a non threatening topic which invites agreement.

 

Everyone likes to feel valued I think even in an encounter which is relatively brief or formal. By exchanging greetings and asking after the other person even just... "And you?" I guess one is saying in the simplest way. "I acknowledge you. You matter".

 

K x

[Mumble]

Got it in one, Mumble.

We DONT know what we are talking about most of the time!

Ah ha! But you all somehow manage to carry on regardless whereas my brain goes into overdrive trying to what out what the hell you're on about - and whilst it's doing that still trying to process and then translate the next bit and together with all of this work out what I'm supposed to say and get the confidence to say it, all before the time-gap between what was initially said by the first speaker and my responce becomes too long and I'm thought of as rude or uncommunicative. Gosh - no wonder I find people (literally) tiring!!!! That's why I prefer text because the processing time issue is not an issue and why I can't use a telephone at all.

 

Kathryn thanks for your reply. I think I'll put off my round the world trip for a while. It reminds me of an advert that used to be on the TV for a certain well-known high-street bank which looked at greetings and hand gestures in different countries and the English man getting it totally wrong. They talked about understanding the 'language' of other cultures but they were not talking linguistically. I think this is perhaps a useful way for me to think - social language is a second language to me and I have to learn it as such - learning the componants and the rules and how they fit together, trying it out slowly, making mistakes and improving until I become more fluent. The problem is, that unlike learning a second language (say me trying to learn French and order a chocolate crepe in Paris) others can't comprehend the very real language barrier that I have - if someone clearly doesn't speak much French most people would speak slower themselves and help the learner. With AS it's not only I who get frustrated if I can't communicate my needs, but the person I'm communicating with, if they don't know about me being autistic, gets frustrated with me and may speak faster or put more tone into their voice, at which stage I become totally lost.

 

The doctor's surgery example is one I thought of when my mentor told me what I always had to say - the same goes for if I go to see my tutor at uni - she's been put in to provide extra support at crisis times for me - so if she says "how are you" and I answer "fine thank-you" it kinda defeats the object of the conversation. As for Greenwich, conversation is a two-way thing - I didn't speak to you either. Maybe we should all have timed social niceity scripts for the next meetup!! It could well end up in hysterics which in itself would be a good thing

 

I think it is the "and you" bit that I'm struggling with - I can cope with giving a two word response but not with the additional bit - maybe because the people I'm with are in a power relationship in some ways over me. In my uni I'm the student and they're the professors - in some ways it feels a bit strange returning the question - like I'm asking something tht's not my business? But maybe that's because I'm thinking in terms of the actual question, which is not what the exchange is actually about.

[pearl]

I can just about keep up with conversation Mumble, but find it VERY hard instant messaging & chatting online as its not something I'd want to go online specifically to do & find it very hard to-ing & fro-ing twixt messaging & whatever else I'm online to do. I'd never initiate messaging & have been in a chat room twice & decided it wasnt for me.

 

Young peeps seem to do all this effortlessly.

[hev]

ive always found it odd that where we live we say allright? to each other instead of saying hello then the other person says allright?and we walk on ive never actually waited to see if the other person is allright or not!!its a greeting.

 

prob not made much sense there mumb,i would love to give an intellectual answer one day and shock you

[Bard]

I'll lend you the ' Watching the English ' book, it's just waiting for someone to read it again!

[Mumble]

prob not made much sense there mumb,i would love to give an intellectual answer one day and shock you

Well I can do intellectual but that's the problem - I think far too much about everything!!! Maybe we should all try actually answering these questions 'correctly' (my correct) one day and see if we can scare the Government into thinking there's something in the drinking water alright?!

 

I'll lend you the ' Watching the English ' book, it's just waiting for someone to read it again!

Thanks - I'll pay you in choccy pancakes , and once I've read it, possibly some witty and intelligent conversation (well there's always a first time)

Edited August 24, 2007 by Mumble

[Kathryn]

This book sounds like one I should get - might come in useful for my lessons.

 

K x

[Bard]

once I've read it, possibly some witty and intelligent conversation (well there's always a first time)

 

 

 

Well, I'll try really hard Mumble! <'>

[Mumble]

I've found a ref. to it:

 

Watching the English

 

It does look good and possibly helpful. See, mentor woman did have a use - she's led to the initiation of a very interesting thread.

[Mumble]

 

Well, I'll try really hard Mumble! <'>

 

:lol: I meant from me!!!!!

[Bard]

<'>

[Kathryn]

Thanks for the link Mumble. Looks like a good one to get - when I can afford it.

 

Someone gave me this and it seems an ideal moment to share it with you - only a tenuous connection to the subject of this thread, but what the heck - it amused me.

 

How to live longer:

 

The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

 

The French eat a lot of fat and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

 

The Japanese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans

 

The Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

 

The Germans drink a lot of beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

 

Conclusion: eat and drink what you like.

 

Speaking English is what kills you.

Edited August 24, 2007 by Kathryn

[Mumble]

Speaking English is what kills you.

In which case I have a comparatively long and healthy life ahead of me with my lack of speech and I can indulge in my choccy box as often as I like!!!

Edited August 25, 2007 by Mumble

[badonkadonk]

I think it is the "and you" bit that I'm struggling with - I can cope with giving a two word response but not with the additional bit - maybe because the people I'm with are in a power relationship in some ways over me. In my uni I'm the student and they're the professors - in some ways it feels a bit strange returning the question - like I'm asking something tht's not my business? But maybe that's because I'm thinking in terms of the actual question, which is not what the exchange is actually about.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here

 

I too have struggled with small talk and greetings in the past and have had to really force myself to learn to not get upset at the person in question for forcing me to do these illogical greeting rituals, but to try and remember that most of the time they have no idea why they're doing it either and that it all comes down to us being animals really.

 

If you approach these greetings in an animal instinct sense, dog versus dog and all that malarky it actually begins to make a lot more sense. I think the fact that we are an advanced species is all to blame for us finding it hard to figure these greetings out because if we had just one set of greetings things might be easier. Anyway, from what I've read it all stems down to protecting ourselves and the way in which our natural instincts kick in to do this. Therefore when we ask 'alright?', 'how are you?' etc it isn't really about the question at all, less about the answer, in fact doesn't it seem funny now to think that a lot of the times when you go through this ritual it seems as if you could say anything you want in response to the person asking the question? 'Are you alright?', 'Oh yes I mean I lost my right leg yesterday and an alien moved into the house next door but overall...', 'great, great, good to hear.' That's because they are not asking the question to find out if you are ok or not, most of the time we couldn't care less, but that question is an important step in determining if the person we are speaking to is threatening in anyway (even if it assessing the threat that they might bore us to death with conversation). So when we ask 'how are you?' what we are really asking is 'do you pose a threat to me? Is there anything I need to know? Is this situation ok?' It seems strange that 'alright?' can mean all these things but apparently it does. People respond in a bland a way as possible and cover up anything overly negative/positive that is happening in their lives to make it clear to the other person that they are indeed no threat. Misunderstandings take place and feelings get hurt when people don't just say 'fine thanks' because if people go on to explain what is happening in their lives, even though it seems as if this is what the other person has asked for, really they haven't. Similarly if you don't ask 'alright?' or 'how are you?' back people can get a bit bristled that you don't want to dismiss them as a threat also. In their subconscious somewhere they are probably thinking 'why don't you care? Don't you want to rule me out as being threatening? Acknowledge me as being neutral and passive, I don't want to be thought of as a possible threat!' Most people couldn't tell you they were thinking this, I don't think we know it's happening but apparently it is.

 

Now as you rightly pointed out, why threatening? Why do people assume that if I don't respond I'm a threat? I personally think threatening is not the ideal word to describe how it makes us feel but it is the best word for encompassing the range of emotions we could feel, that make any sense? We don't necessarily feel threatened in an 'are you going to stab me?' sense, but rather threatened in an 'I don't have a full understanding of the situation, let me know we are ok' sense. So when trying to understand try to think less that they are considering whether you are threatening or not but more that they are trying to assess the situation and find out where everyone stands. Asking 'alright?' and getting the response 'alright?' means that both sides know that the situation is fine, there is nothing to worry about and each person involved in the conversation has been acknowledged so everyone is crystal clear on the situation. Again, it's maddening that all this subcontext applies to a two second greeting but sometimes us Aspies (and fellow non-understanding NTs) have just got to accept that ol' 'because' answer because even if people can identify how we do something and the reasons behind it, it still doesn't explain why that has to happen.

 

So why don't us Aspies do it too? I think, in terms of communicating, this is where a lot of us are wired differently. Again I understand that some people do have difficulties in literally speaking, being verbal and forming sentences etc but I'm not really knowledgeable about that side of the spectrum at all and daren't even have an opinion really because I honestly wouldn't know what I'm on about, so vast I think the differences are between Autism and Aspergers. From an Aspergers sense, and again I know I'm no expert, but more often than not I meet/come into contact with online, other Aspies who seem to be able to communicate just fine. We can string sentences together and we can be verbal, sometimes we can get involved in really lengthy conversations, be funny and engaging. Amazing I know I think where we are different is that we don't have, for whatever reason, that natural instinct that a lot of NTs seem to have. We don't necessarily feel threatened by someone if they walk past us in the street and don't ask us if we are alright. Whether we just assume they are a threat regardless, unless we know them, I don't know but it doesn't seem to be something we need to do in order to assess that kind of situation. It could just be down to the fact that we aren't social beings and therefore don't need to assess all social situations because we don't actively seek to get involved in them. People who go out in social groups and do that chit-chat thing alot rely on these greeting cues to get a handle on these situations because they are in these situations a lot and it's a good indicator of how the encounter will go. Because we are not interested we are not threatened, hope this is making sense still!!

 

So where does it leave us in the long run? Should we try to mimick NT practices? Should we expect people to come around to our way of thinking? It's a personal thing I guess, but my take just to wrap things up. I think, ultimately, we cannot expect an NT society to understand from the get go, even if people have an understanding of Autism it must be hard to subdue the natural instinct that they must experience, whether they want to or not alot still might feel a bit bristled that the conversation doesn't occur how their instinct tells them it should even though they know we are unlikely to follow these expected conventions. How do you control your instinct? Your subconscious? Since figuring this out (through reading lots of body language books btw, great tools for this kind of thing) I have learnt to make my peace with NTs and their silly greeting rituals For me, even though it feels alien to me and I dislike having to speak to strangers, I am beginning to understand the positive impact it can have on me to take part in these greetings. It is assumed far less than I'm a miserable old moose, people seem to be more comfortable around me and I get less odd stares etc. Yes I force myself to do it in part to allay the NTs fears, but I mostly do it to stop them taking any negatives from the situation. For too long people seemed to read me the wrong way, think of me in a negative way and I was constantly told I came across as unapproachable, moody and uninterested. All true incididentally but in order for me to get along in society and to have a more positive experience I am trying to rectify this, despite the 'grrrrrr' factor of having to do it.

 

It's all about what kind of response you want from people I guess, want people to leave you alone? Don't want to have less problematic encounters in society? Then fair enough don't engage. But sometimes I just want to go into a shop and buy somtehing without being aware of this unexplainable atmosphere that always seems to happen. I want to meet a bunch of strangers and not have them go away afterwards muttering how odd I am. As much as NT society rejects me because I'm Aspergers and as much as I could sit and grumble for days about how illogical they all are and how stupid a lot of that whole socialising is (in my opinion). I have ultimately come to recognose that NT society isn't going to change anytime soon and if I want to do something in this life, like work and have a family I've got to be the one who figures out how I can have more positive experiences with society. Yes it means integrating better, yes to a certain extent it means pretending to be someone I'm not if that's how you choose to think about things. For me it's learning new skills to help myself to get what I want better. When I have a family I'm going to need help from services, nurses, doctors and the like and if I want to get the best out of that situation I've got to learn how to make positive contact with people.

 

There is no answer to this situation, NTs can't help having this animal instinct and we Aspies can't help not having it. The fact that we humans are so advanced at this communicating stuff (compared to other animals I might add) it is hard for us Aspies to get a grip with it, especially as English Language isn't something you can put neatly in a box, categorise into sections and have steadfast rules apply. I before E drives me absolutely flipping bonkers but there isn't anything I can do about it

 

Anyway, hope this has helped a little bit, probably hasn't but you know me, I like to ramble

 

Emily

xxx

[Mumble]

I like to ramble

Well it's a pleasure allowing you the space to induldge in your rambling!!!!!

 

If you approach these greetings in an animal instinct sense, dog versus dog and all that malarky it actually begins to make a lot more sense.

Well I'm very glad in that case that I'm a human - I've seen the way dogs 'greet' each other!

 

in fact doesn't it seem funny now to think that a lot of the times when you go through this ritual it seems as if you could say anything you want in response to the person asking the question? 'Are you alright?', 'Oh yes I mean I lost my right leg yesterday and an alien moved into the house next door but overall...', 'great, great, good to hear.'

that about sums up my responses before I realised that wasn't what was required and I switched to the 'fine thanks' without reciprocation. I guess part of the problem I'm having now in thinking about this is that I could try the "and you" bit with new people but the people who really matter to me are the ones I haven't done the "and you" with. If I was to change to do this to show I'm non-threatening (which I would hope they would know having known me for several years) it would probably come across as really strange - or do you think they wouldn't even notice?

 

I have another question. If I meet someone in the morning and we go through the whole "how are you" ritual before going off wherever we're going and then we see each other again in the afternoon, do we have to repeat the ritual or does the non-threatening understanding carry over several hours?

 

be funny and engaging. Amazing I know

You know that's not allowed I think it's covered by rule 47 in the expanded version of the manual.

 

We don't necessarily feel threatened by someone if they walk past us in the street and don't ask us if we are alright.

Two things:

I feel threatened by people most of the time because they may act in unpredictable ways or may try out one of these rituals on me - the ritual to me is more scary than the lack of threat it is supposed to bring.

Of which people in the street should you make this enquiry - I'd quickly gain a sore throat in Oxford street if I was to exchange customary greeting with every individual, yet when I'm out walking or up in the mountains with the few people you pass it is customary to at least say hello or to note any dangers that may be ahead, weather warnings etc and I can cope with this fine - because to me it is mutual territory. - and maybe this is part of my problem too - sometimes I can do these rituals, sometimes I can't, and I don't always understand why I have difficulty in some situations and not in others.

 

It is assumed far less than I'm a miserable old moose . . . I was constantly told I came across as unapproachable, moody and uninterested. All true incididentally

Are old mooses (what's the plural of moose?) miserable? I'm miserable if my choccy moose is old but I don't think that's the same thing I get the unapproachable, moody, uninterested thing all the time - true here too - but I'm struggling to see how such NT rituals mean I wouldn't be those things. It's almost more as a gloss over the real me so as to present a packaged Mumble that NTs can cope with.

 

if I want to do something in this life, like work and have a family I've got to be the one who figures out how I can have more positive experiences with society. Yes it means integrating better, yes to a certain extent it means pretending to be someone I'm not if that's how you choose to think about things.

I guess I'm just stuck on the how far this should be taken. Even if I manage the initial ritual I don't cope with sustained conversation (which perhaps explains my reluctance with the initial ritual - get this wrong and I don't have to do the following conversation). I hate socialising because I am so aware of myself and really feel that I am being watched for any mistakes I make - I'm constantly trying to work out what is expected of me - more often than not I get it wrong and on the occasions I get it right it takes me so long to figure it out that the moment to do 'right' has passed so what would have been right becomes wrong.

 

I before E drives me absolutely flipping bonkers but there isn't anything I can do about it

There is - auto-correct in Word - fabulous invention!!!! :lol:

[Guest Lya of the Nox]

you do make me laugh Lya

 

 

 

ahhh i have done somethign right this week

 

wooohhhhhoooo

 

all this is very intersting, really making me think

x

[badonkadonk]

that about sums up my responses before I realised that wasn't what was required and I switched to the 'fine thanks' without reciprocation. I guess part of the problem I'm having now in thinking about this is that I could try the "and you" bit with new people but the people who really matter to me are the ones I haven't done the "and you" with. If I was to change to do this to show I'm non-threatening (which I would hope they would know having known me for several years) it would probably come across as really strange - or do you think they wouldn't even notice?

I think that you shouldn't change with people who already know you because you're right, the fact that they know you means that they probably don't find you threatening. They might notice, might not, regardless it doesn't really matter you are already in contact with these people so they will have an understanding of you and what to expect from you in social situations.

 

I have another question. If I meet someone in the morning and we go through the whole "how are you" ritual before going off wherever we're going and then we see each other again in the afternoon, do we have to repeat the ritual or does the non-threatening understanding carry over several hours?

I think it depends entirely on the situation and person you are with. If you have 'bumped' into someone in the morning and gone through the 'alright?', 'alright?' bit and you are only passing each other again in the afternoon a simple smile and a bit of eye contact might do. If you are meeting up with them to spend time with them again it depends on the person. You might want to ask how their morning went, you might just end up talking about something else. I would wait and see if the person initiated the 'alright?', 'alright?' thing again in the afternoon and respond accordingly if they do so. If they don't do it don't worry about it, I'm sure if they felt unsure about the situation they would ask some kind of question that would enable them to understand how you are feeling.

 

Of which people in the street should you make this enquiry - I'd quickly gain a sore throat in Oxford street if I was to exchange customary greeting with every individual, yet when I'm out walking or up in the mountains with the few people you pass it is customary to at least say hello or to note any dangers that may be ahead, weather warnings etc and I can cope with this fine - because to me it is mutual territory. - and maybe this is part of my problem too - sometimes I can do these rituals, sometimes I can't, and I don't always understand why I have difficulty in some situations and not in others.

There is no definitive guide, this is the problem and it's pointless really trying to figure out the correct response for each situation. You can only try and learn from experience and in time you might build up a knowledge of what to say in what situations and when, having gone through trial and error. Regards Oxford street and walking up mountains I think you are confusing being out in public as a social situation. If you are ambling down Oxford street (or desperately trying to weave your way through crowds to get away from all the people) you're not really there to initiate social contact are you? I know you are intelligent and logical enough to know this, I think you are thinking about it too much and as a result questioning yourself to the point where you convince yourself that you don't know anything. You go to Oxford street to shop or talk to the people you are already with. You assume that others are there to do the same and so they aren't a threat to what you are doing. Think about the people who do approach you to make contact, the ones who are usually doing surveys on things, these people are loathed by shoppers because they are a threat that could disrupt the shoppers activities. On a mountain it is different, it is common practice to acknowledge others as you pass I assume because it acknowledges that you share something in common in that you are both walking around mountains. It's a kind of 'I acknowledge you exist,', 'I acknowledge you exist,' type thing. It is also though to rest assure the other person that you are not a threat. Being on the mountain means you are away from society and many forms of aid and assistance and so you have every right to feel more exposed, more at risk. Passing another stranger while walking up/across/around a mountain is pretty much like passing another stranger down a deserted street at night. It's an isolated environment and feelings are heightened. Passing on information about the weather or any trouble ahead while you are out walking on the mountain is also common courtesy and again reinforcing that common bond that you share both being out there. It's also a developed method of reinforcing that you are not a threat and providing some kind of aid and assistance that you are lacking out there. It's people saying look I'm acknowledging you and telling you about any dangers because we should look out for each other up here because we all know the risks, are frightened of them, and would want others to tell us this vital information.

 

When I worked as a chambermaid I found it really weird that the guests would say hello to me in a morning. I assumed that being low ranking staff I would be ignored, guests don't generally want to be made aware that their hotel room isn't actually theirs, they don't like to think about the fact that others have stayed in that room before them which is why they go bonkers if there is any evidence left behind that this has happened (like a stray hair in the sink). The more it happened the more I began to realise that they weren't acknowledging my existence as such but being self-protective. They were saying 'hello, I know you are going in my room, please don't steal anything or do anything bad, I'm ensuring this doesn't happen by saying hello and acknowledging your existence so that you can put a smiley face to the people staying in your room and you might feel more inclined to do a better job or steal less then.' It blows my mind to think that all this is conveyed in sometimes just a smile and nod of the head but the reality is that it is. It is no wonder that we struggle to understand conventional social communications because each nano-second of communicating is absolutely loaded with additional information.

 

That being said you are going to drive yourself insane trying to figure it all out! By all means analyse and think about it but don't let it get to the point where it disables you from communicating at all if you end up so worried that you will make a mistake. Just because NTs seemingly have the natural instinct to do this kind of thing it doesn't mean they get it right all the time as I'm sure a lot of NTs on here will testify to.

 

It's almost more as a gloss over the real me so as to present a packaged Mumble that NTs can cope with.

Not really, you're not doing anything wrong in thinking this either so please don't think I'm telling you off. Because this is the thing you are thinking about at the minute you are thinking about things from a personal perspective which is to be expected but you need to step back and look at things from a non-personal perspective to get a better understanding. It's not even about NTs and Aspies in this respect. That whole threat thing applies to everyone, it's nothing personal. It is about glossing over what is going on in your life so as to present a non-threatening response to the question asker. Again they are not really asking if you are ok, they are assessing the situation. Most of the time these greetings take place with no intention from either party of carrying on the conversation. They're not even conversations really, just gestures to say to certain people in certain situations 'hello I recognise you, I'm not a threat are you?'. Neighbours do this, people you work with do this, family members do this or people who know other members of your family who recognise you. You sometimes do this when buying something in a shop because it acts as a precursor to purchasing the product. The greeting ensures that the employee knows you are just going to pay and get on with it (and not argue with them or shout) and it ensures that the customer knows that the employee is going to serve them and get on with it. This is why negative situations can often occur in customer service because the customer might be fed up of waiting and give off a negative attitude to the staff or the staff might be fed up of serving and give off a negative attitude to the customer. When the greeting isn't put in place either party can feel offended because they take it as a personal insult that the other person hasn't acknowledged them and dismissed them as a threat.

 

Don't take it personally that these people don't necessarily want to get to know you, those who do will ask further questions and initiate a conversation. Not everyone wants to stop and get to know every single person that they acknowledge, like you said it would lead to some very sore throats so I think you should go with the greeting bit and if they initiate further conversation go with it and if they don't move on. I understand the problem occurs when they initiate conversation and you don't want to talk to them at that time but then you just use one of a thousand excuses to move yourself on from the conversation 'sorry I can't stay and chat, got to get back to the car before the ticket runs out,' those kind of 'white' lies. Practice, practice, trial and error that's all you can do

 

I guess I'm just stuck on the how far this should be taken. Even if I manage the initial ritual I don't cope with sustained conversation (which perhaps explains my reluctance with the initial ritual - get this wrong and I don't have to do the following conversation). I hate socialising because I am so aware of myself and really feel that I am being watched for any mistakes I make - I'm constantly trying to work out what is expected of me - more often than not I get it wrong and on the occasions I get it right it takes me so long to figure it out that the moment to do 'right' has passed so what would have been right becomes wrong.

What's most important is to be yourself. If you need to get something out of the encounter then employ the NT communicating methods if you want to. It might lead to a more positive encounter. If you don't want to be part of the encounter but find yourself caught up in it, use a white lie to move on from the conversation. I understand the fear of making a mistake and fear that you are being watched in a conversation thing so I would just try to rely on that Aspie instinct and not try to over-think things because ultimately it doesn't seem to have any positive impact and only stresses you out more.

 

Relax, chill out and try not to let these kind of things become all consuming. Ultimately, even if you understand these kind of conventions and can put some practices into place you cannot control, predict or create a solid set of rules for each encounter so it is more important to try to expect unpredictability and anticipate that each situation will be different. If you try and remember just some of the things that can help you might get better at assessing what method you could use for each situation while it's happening but it's something that will only come with time and practice.

 

Maybe you should try and distract yourself from thinking about this for a while and give your brain a rest, maybe come back to it in a few days and see if things seem any clearer. Try a few body language books if you think they will help, but more importantly give yourself a break! You are never, ever going to fully understand how these things work but it doesn't mean that just because there is a chance of making mistakes that you should withdraw and not try altogether. I could hide under my bed all day long and never communicate with people again and be somewhat happy. But then I wouldn't have much of a productive life and I would miss out on an awful lot of things. Plus the more I hid under the bed the harder I would find it each time I came out. It's about balance.

 

I suggest you start thinking about chocolate and other lovely stuff for a couple of hours, far more fun!

 

Emily

xxx

[Mumble]

I suggest you start thinking about chocolate and other lovely stuff for a couple of hours, far more fun!

OK.

[Juney]

Just been discussing this with my husband who has aspie traits but no diagnosis, he says he struggles with this, and can't see the point, he has just said to me that if someone at work asks him if he is alright etc.. he says " well I'm here aren't I" !!!! He has just come in from the local shop and said a neighbour has just asked him how he is and he just said "OK" nothing else at all. I must admit I did say to him that was a bit rude!! He said "well he was obviously OK."

 

I must admit that since my son's diagnosis I've understood my husband so much more!! A few years ago I would've just got cross with him!!

 

Anyway, like Emily says have fun with some other stuff.

Edited August 25, 2007 by Juney

[Cariad]

I think some of these conventions depend on what part of the country you live in. Where I am, the accepted "friendly greeting" for neighbour, acquaintance etc is "alright?" to which the reply is also "alright?" -- must be delivered with a questioning tone to the voice. After that you can carry on talking or leave it at that with "friendliness" satisfied. I found this really confusing when I moved here and I am NT -- spent ages replying "very well thank you" until I realised that wasnt what was expected. So what would your mwntor think of this??

 

Now I tend to say "not bad" or "fine thanks" unless I want to go into detail with the person. But I wonder the point your mentor may have been trying to make was the idea of reciprocating the greeting, as a convention. With friends I often add "what about you?" especially if I want to carry on the conversation.

 

The main thing though, is I dont think you should worry too much about the exact script your mentor recommends.

 

 

We say "Alright" here too iwillholdon.

[Bullet]

I constantly forget to add the "and how are you?" bit. I try and make up for it by asking them a question about themselves later on.