Special Schools

[Bagpuss]

We have been requested to attend our youngest dd (7 ASD & MD) annual review of her Statement next month.....3 months early. I've queried it, and been told by the HT that the LEA want to know as early as possible which SEN children will be requesting which school/placement for next September. DD will be going into Year 3 in September next year, and the assessments classes (approx 10 SEN children in each class, set within a mainstream school) she has been in since Nursery come to an end after Year 2. No one has discussed the options with us, other than the support base within the same mainstream school she attends at the mo. The HT has told us that the staff at school believe this would be the best placement for DD. The support base has approx 15 children in it, and she could stay there until she leaves Primary school. I know many of the children who have left her class upon entering Year 3 have gone onto the support base. To be honest we've never really considered an alternative, but now we are wondering if we should check out all our options. I was having a chat with some parents this evening, whose child was in the support base. He wasn't particularly happy there, and they moved him to a local Special School. They speak very highly of this particular Special School, and advised that we should at least be visiting different placements/schools to make an informed choice. We've never even visited the support base, assuming that we wouldn't have to make any decision until dd was due to go to Secondary school. My dilemma is that DD is bright, and the EP told us years ago, when she suggested an assessment class, that DD's IQ was too high for a special school. Have other parents found that to be the case? If we do decide to look at our options for DD, what should we be basing our decision on? What is the criteria for a placement within a special school?

Edited September 14, 2007 by Bagpuss

[Kazzen161]

In our LEA, the LEA don't have any IQ criteria for entry to their MLD (now CLD) schools. However, if you ask the schools, you will find that the children may only have the opportunity to take one or two GCSEs (and only get low grades), and you may decide that this is not suitable for your child. I used this as one of my arguments against my son going to various schools. I did not see why he should not have appropriate educational opportunites, just because of his AS and behaviour. He ended up in a specialist independent school.

[Bagpuss]

thanks kazzen

[bid]

Hi Baggy

 

LEAs are very quick to say our kids are too bright for their special schools...but not so quick to tell parents about the good choice of independent special schools which do cater for more academic kids.

 

Gabbitas is a good starting point as it lists all the independent special schools in the country.

 

Good luck <'>

 

Bid

[Bagpuss]

Thanks Bid

[David Matthew Baker]

The Special School I worked at in Middlesbrough was an LEA school and I would have thought some of the students there had high IQs. They had various who had achieved good GCSEs and some working on A-Levels. These students tended to attend one of the local mainstream Secondaries with support from the Special School. I find it a bit suprising that IQ would be a factor. I got the impression talking to some of the more gifted students and the staff that the reason those students were there was because they had shown that they had problems with dealing with a mainstream school. I can ask when I'm down in Middlesbrough next week about what the requirements are for a special school. I think I see the LEA science advisor again on Tuesday so she should know. Also the secondary I start my placement at has a special needs wing attached (physical disabilities) so might be able to ask there SENCo too.

[Bagpuss]

Thanks David, appreciate the advice. Will have a chat with you on Saturday if that's ok.

[Bagpuss]

BTW, what do you say if you want to view a school? Can you just ring the HT and request it?

[Cariad]

BTW, what do you say if you want to view a school? Can you just ring the HT and request it?

 

When I've gone around looking at special schools and LEA school and Independent schools I've phoned the school and they have given me an appointment.

 

About the IQ, I viewed a school 5 years ago and the headmistress said my DS's IQ was too high, I did look at the school and she was right as the 6 years were doing work he had done ages ago. But I think if you really want a school special or not and you know it's right for your child you can fight for it. With the LEA they have never questioned IQ's when "picking" a school for my son.

[Bagpuss]

Thanks Cariad

[Kazzen161]

I always used to ring the school for a prospectus first, and to ask if they took children with x, y and z. Then if it was a possible, I rang the school and made an appointment to go and visit (on my own, without my son). 7 years ago, most schools would let you visit if you asked, but I have heard that recently some schools (LEA and independent) will only let you visit once the LEA has approached them as a possible placement (because they were having so many visitors going round the school). Some schools have open days where you can visit too.

 

When you do visit, go with a list of questions, as it is very easy to come out and find you have forgotten to ask various things. It is also good to have someone to take notes for you, as you think you will remember but when you visit a few schools you tend to get them a bit mixed up!

[Bagpuss]

Thanks for the advice Kazzen...I hadn't thought of asking for their prospectus. I've been online and checked out their website, and I know a few children who attend. DH says he is going to give the special school a bell this week, to see if we can have a look round on his next weekday off. I'm going to organise with dd's present school to have a look at their support base, which everyone seems to believe will be the best place for her. I'm unsure what sort of reponse we will get if we decide we feel her needs are best met elsewhere, as up until now, we've always been guided by the EP and present school, and have never even viewed anywhere else. The parents I was talking to said the special school their son was at (same one we want to visit) has it's own physio and hydro pool, which taking into account dd has MD, is a huge plus for us. They also said that the school thought teaching life skills was important, again, something we believe too. The pupil/staff ratio per class was good aswell. We are also trying to think ahead. What happens when dd reaches secondary school age? She would never cope in a mainstream setting. Our local secondary school has just opened an ASD unit, for approx 8 children There is a huge fight on for these few places. I know dd is bright, but I just cannot imagine her sitting any exams.........I know that sounds really negative, and I hope it doesn't come across that we've given up on her, but we want her to taught things which are vital to her, and will help encourage her independance. Sorry, I feel abit unsure admitting that in "public" so to speak, and hope you can see what I'm waffling on about Then I think...well, she's happy at her present school, who's to say she wouldn't be just as happy in their support base? We've had a few niggles of late, which has made us unsure........comments about her attendance when she's had to be off for hospital appts or being ill, the HT saying dd's teacher was upset because I'd said her report could of been more balanced, and on Friday a letter home saying dd's teacher was spending too much time talking to parents at the beginning and end of each day, and HT wants parents to make an appointment when it was convenient for teacher ( teacher had put in home school diary it was not relevant to dh or i, as dd got transport, but she thought she'd include it anyway). We've also had issues regarding her physio being reduced, and the worry that if we decide on the support base, come Year 6 where do we place her? I'm wittering on arn't I...... sorry, just had to do idioms homework with eldest dd 9 AS.........

[brooke]

I understand what you mean bagpuss i really want my son to learn life skills too at the end of the day these are what he is going to need, i feel it is very important for him. He is very bright too and since being in his unit has come on loads with his reading maths ect but i was told he will be put in for SATS this year i cant imagine him being able to do an exam at 7 either. Im not sure what they will involve but i think he will have someone with him to help explain. i will be enquiring about this. Though i feel this will not tell me or school how clever he is we know what he can do and dont need an exam to prove it. That is just my opinion though .

I think your doing the right thing you want the best for your daughter and sometimes that means looking at other options. <'> <'>

[Bagpuss]

Thanks Brooke <'>

[Kazzen161]

If you look at a range of schools, then you get an idea of what a "good" school for your child would be.

 

My eldest went to a residential specialist school, and that was right for him. My youngest is at mainstream, and that should be right for him (just wish they would give him a bit more help).

 

I looked at lots of schools when looking for a secondary school for T. One was awful, several could not meet his educational needs, several were good but would not suit him for various reasons - only one coudl meet ALL his needs.

 

Independent schools often have their own OT, SaLT, psychologists, etc and that counts for a lot.

[Bagpuss]

Thanks Kazzen. Would you mind telling me what sort of questions you asked when looking round?

[Kazzen161]

I'll see if I can find my list later on.

[Kazzen161]

Here's my list of questions (I was looking at residential secondary schools).

It is very thorough

 

Name of school:

LEA or independent?

Opened when?

Type: eg: day/res ? termly/weekly/fortnightly

Disabilities covered: eg: ASD/AS/dyslexia/PDA/ODD/ADHD/EBD (are the other children like your child?)

Distance from home:

Start/finish times?

Journey time at those times:

Age range:

Number on roll:

All boys/mixed?

Number of staff: T/TA

Number of male staff:

Average/maximum class size:

T/TA per class?

How are they grouped? Eg: by age, by ability?

Average NC level/reading age on entry?

What exams do they offer? Eg:GCSE, NVQ, Basic skills

Do they offer full range of subjects at KS3/4?

Look at facilities for teaching eg: science, DT, music, food tech, PE.

Do they use TEACCH, PECS, Makaton, visual timetables, work stations, etc?

What about homework?

Do they offer a 24 hour curriculum?

What do they offer re: social skills?

? ? ? ? ? life skills?

What links do they have with the local community? Eg: Scouts, clubs

Do they integrate into a mainstream school?

How secure is the school/grounds?

What would they do if a child runs away?

How do they deal with challenging behaviour?

Discipline/rewards/sanctions?

What dinner food do they offer? Will they accommodate child?s tastes?

Access to internet to e-mail home?

Mobile phones allowed?

How would they encourage/accommodate your child?s special interests?

What do they do at breaktimes?

Do they have their own SaLT/OT/EP/psychologists/therapists?

Term dates? Terms may start/finish later/sooner than mainstream/other counties.

Residential:

Staff structure?

Number of male care staff?

Set up? Eg: dormitories/single rooms/like home

TVs/pets/pictures/etc allowed?

Access to food/drink?

Allowed in room at breaktimes?

 

Do you have any places in my child?s year group for Sept XX?

Look at their Ofsted.

Look at the Care ?Ofsted? for residential schools.

Is the school approved by the Sec of State?

Look at last year?s exam results (SATs/GCSEs)

What do the children leaving your school do? Eg: college/supported living

Do you have any other children here from my LEA?

Have you got/do you need my child?s paperwork?

What is the process of applying for a place? Eg: any assessment days?

Cost?

[Bagpuss]

Blimey Kazzen

 

DH has rung Special School twice (Mon & Tues) , and asked to speak to HT and arrange a visit, but so far we've not received any call back...doesn't instill confidence does it I've also sent a letter into our dd's school to the HT requesting an appt for DH and I to view the support base.

 

Thanks so much for the questions, we really appreciate it <'>

[Kazzen161]

I found that in good schools, during the tour of the school, they would already have answered most of my questions.

 

In one school (an LEA special school), when we got back after the tour, the Head hadn't answered hardly any of the questions - just waffled a lot. He said they used TEACCH, but I didn't see any visual timetables around the school.

 

When I asked one school what they would do if T ran away (he had already run away from his junior school twice) - the Head said he would only do it once, as he would then exclude him.

 

One school had a little sheet printed out saying if you do x then y will happen. It said if you break a window you will be sent home - I could see T breaking a window just so he could come home! They also sent the children to their (impersonal) rooms as a punishment. T would have been in there all the time, if he could then miss lessons. They were also stopped from going in their rooms unless it was to sleep, and as T had always been encouraged to use his room to chill out, that would not have worked.

[Bagpuss]

Thanks Kazzen

[Bagpuss]

HT from Special School rang DH today. DH said he sounds lovely. He has made an appt for us to go and look round on Tuesday morning...unfortunately DS has a hosp appt the same morning, so we will have to ring school tomorrow and try and make it for Wed morn. Still no news from dd's present school re looking round their support base

[Bagpuss]

Why are long awaited phone calls like buses..........teacher of support base rang today to arrange for us to visit next week

[Bagpuss]

Quick Update....went to view support base yesterday at dd's present school. We were not overly impressed, for lots of reasons. We then picked dd up from her classroom and took her over to the support base, where all the children knew her, called out her name, and tried so hard to welcome her . She didn't want to stay long, but said afterwards she had liked it.

 

Today we went to visit the special school. DH and I left with huge grins on our faces, and neither of us had to tell the other one is was the right place for dd. We were absolutely blown away. I kinda feel I've let dd down now. I'd questioned whether she should attend a special school when she was at nursery, but the EP said she was too bright, so we took her advice and placed her in the school she's in now. Having now viewed the special school, and it's superb facilities, I know it was/is the right place for her, and she would of benefitted so much from attending it from aged 4 Lesson learnt.

 

So, now we have to make another appt to take dd to the special school, so she can meet them and vice versa. The annual review is next month. It was to decide where dd would go come next Sept, but we now feel we want her moved asap. Her usual annual review date is Jan, and they've brought it forward to make a decision (apparantly the LEA wants a lot of time to decide places etc...not sure I quite believe that if I'm honest ).

 

I don't think we are in for an easy ride. I know the staff at her present school feel her needs will be best met at their support base. The EP is all for inclusion, and has mentioned mainstream for dd in the past. I think everyone is expecting us to turn up at annual review and go with their advice, as we normally do. infact I think everyone is taking it for granted that dd will go into the support base, and we will agree.

 

Has anyone any advice regarding changing schools on a Statement? Can we ask at the annual review next month that dd be moved to the special school before Sept....say January, when her Statement was due for renewal anyway? How difficult is it to request a change of school?

 

Thanks again <'>

[Kazzen161]

Glad you feel so positively about the special school.

 

Where there is a change of school due, it is policy to hold the Review in October/November - to ensure there is plenty of time to sort a placement out (we had a July Yr 5 review and then an October Yr 6 Review). All placements are supposed to be finalised by sometime in Feb I think.

 

At the Review you can say that you have visited both and wish to have the special school named on the Statement, but you need to back it up with reasons/facts why they can meet her needs in ways the unit can't. If it is an LEA special school, then you may be OK.

 

You can ask at the Review for the school to be changed earlier. Would there be a place available there for her in Jan? Would it be good for her to be the only new child in the class? What do the special school think about her changing in January? Have they indicated that they would probably take your dd?

 

It is usually harder to get a change of school before the child would normally leave, because you have to argue that the current school is no longer meeting her needs (rather than it just being that it doesn't take children of that age), and you don't want to do that unless you are sure the special school has a place/will take her.

[Bagpuss]

Thanks Kazzen, hadn't thought about those points. Would prob be more straight forward to opt for a move in Sept, as planned, rather than push for an earlier one.

[Guest Lya of the Nox]

hey hindsight is wonderful

you always do the best for your kids so dont feel bad!

have no idea bout shcools sooorrry

x

[Bagpuss]

Lya <'> Thanks hun x

[David Matthew Baker]

Glad you liked it. If it is as good as the one I worked at I am sure it will be a great place for your daughter. You never know some experience of mainstream maybe useful for your daughter. If it is like the special school I worked at (which was soley for autistic students incase anyone doesn't know) some of the secondary aged students do various courses down at the local mainstream school. They do have support from the special school but it seems to work well. Trying to get them to place me at that mainstream school for my longer teaching practice. All the best, David.

[Bagpuss]

Thanks David We are trying at the mo to arrange to take youngest dd in for a visit. Really unsure how to approach it.....trying to decide what we tell her, without causing her to become upset or panic about a change of school DH and I wanted to take her on Friday, when he is off, but they can't do that day, so it will have to be next week, with just me. The annual review is less than two weeks away. The forms have been sat staring at me since July,.....so dislike filling them in. Especially so this time, as we need to back up our decision, which fills me with dread.

[rmt]

Hi

I spent 2 years fighting for some help for my son who has AS,ADHD, DYS, I always wanted to believe he could stay in mainstream. His cognitive skills are so high I couldn't see him fitting in the resource base in our area. Finally we were allowed 23 hours of support a week, by then it was too late. My son had no faith or interest in the school.

I was also concerned about inclusion.

Then I found the perfect school which he could attend as a day pupil, it meant along day for him 30miles away. Every question I asked showed they had good understanding of As. Plenty of staff etc.

I realised that you can still have inclusion in a special school. My DS has made friends and is joining in lessons that he refused to do in mainstream school.

We have been lucky that we had the support of the LEA.

My big piece of advice to you is, record as much evidence as possible. Without evidence they will not consider it.

Good luck hope you get the school. XX

[Bagpuss]

Thanks rmt, lovely to hear that it has been a positive move for your son <'>

[paulr]

My dilemma is that DD is bright, and the EP told us years ago, when she suggested an assessment class, that DD's IQ was too high for a special school. Have other parents found that to be the case? If we do decide to look at our options for DD, what should we be basing our decision on? What is the criteria for a placement within a special school?

 

This is complete nonsense.

 

If, for example, you had a very very intelligent child who attacked anyone who came near him or her with a sharp object (some of the most psychiatrically damaged cases are highly intelligent), one would suggest that a placement in a mainstream school would be a disaster.

 

Similarly EBD children (Behavioural) are as intelligent or not as the rest of the population. I've worked with some who have got 8 or 9 A-Cs at GCSE.

 

The only point where this may be relevant is in a school which tends to operate at a lower level with no other issues ; MLD springs to mind (but I'm not that knowledgeable about that).

 

ASD has Social, Behavioural, Communications and Education components. IQ really only deals directly with one of these.

 

The only thing to consider is if your child is very bright some Special Schools do basically cop out of exams - the local EBD schools here are awful with children who should do much much better.

[Bagpuss]

Thanks paulr, really appreciate your comments.

[Kazzen161]

>>Really unsure how to approach it.....trying to decide what we tell her, without causing her to become upset or panic about a change of school

 

I can't remember what I said to T, but I think once your dd gets there she will probably like it as much as you. You could say that you have seen a school that you think she will really like it, and you are just going to have a look round. Show her any photos you have of it. Make sure you point out all the positives from her point of view (my son loved the fact they had go-karts and ponds!).

[paulr]

In one school (an LEA special school), when we got back after the tour, the Head hadn't answered hardly any of the questions - just waffled a lot. He said they used TEACCH, but I didn't see any visual timetables around the school.

 

"We use TEACCH" is code for " the staff have made some velcro things and stuck them up on the wall". IME of those who claim they are doing TEACCH virtually none are.

 

When I asked one school what they would do if T ran away (he had already run away from his junior school twice) - the Head said he would only do it once, as he would then exclude him.

 

ROFLMAO ! What a plonker. I doubt very much this is legal, especially if the child is accepted as a "known potential runner".

[Kazzen161]

"We use TEACCH" is code for " the staff have made some velcro things and stuck them up on the wall". IME of those who claim they are doing TEACCH virtually none are.

 

That is what worried me - I didn't even see any velcro things up on the wall. At the time they were supposed to be a centre of excellence for TEACCH!

[Bagpuss]

>>Really unsure how to approach it.....trying to decide what we tell her, without causing her to become upset or panic about a change of school

 

I can't remember what I said to T, but I think once your dd gets there she will probably like it as much as you. You could say that you have seen a school that you think she will really like it, and you are just going to have a look round. Show her any photos you have of it. Make sure you point out all the positives from her point of view (my son loved the fact they had go-karts and ponds!).

 

Thanks Kazzen. I took the opportunity today to talk to her about it. She is off school at the mo, with a tummy bug, and I managed to casually talk about when she becomes too old for her present class, and what would happen. She took it all on board, in fact, when I told her daddy and I had looked round another school, which we liked, and thought she would too, she got really excited. She asked lots of questions and I've explained that she can come with me next week to see the school, and have shown her the prospectus, which is full of pictures. I've talked about all the positives aspects of her going to this new school, but also "tried", as best I could, to help her understand that it isn't a foregone conclusion, and there was a possiblity she could go to the support base in her present school. I'm really proud of how well she has handled this.

[elun1]

Hi O goes to an autism specific unit attached to a mainstream school but inclusion is limited to playtimes at present. He also has severe learning difficulties. However I know a lot of the children in the Unit very well now and they are all on the spectrum but some do not have additional 'learning' difficulties but they have very real difficulties with inclusion in mainstream placements, if that makes sense! This affects their ability to learn so they 'fail' in a mainstream environment. Your average busy noisy primary classroom can be such a nightmare for children with autism, completely irrespective of their level of cognitive function. For us in one way it was an easy decision as O is not a candidate for mainstream in any way but if he was I would still have looked at special schools carefully. You're doing all this anyway but just thought I'd tell you this as when O started at the unit I was really surprised to find AS and HFA children there.

All the best, Elun xxx

[David Matthew Baker]

The special school I worked at were good at using TEACCH in the Primary end and there were some examples of it in the Secondary. All things like timetables that the students can refer to and check of where they are upto are classed as part of TEACCH. Velcro resources do come into it and do make fun teaching tools. I'm tempted to make some for my secondary students but not sure if I can be bothered to make 30 copies. That said I think even NT students could benefit from some of the ideas behind them. It also covers things like how to deal with children who are having overload situations and hence freaking out. Things like 'less is more' when it comes to words and language. Pictures can often get a message across better. As well as actions been better than words as well. Quite a few of those none velcro bits are used at the secondary level. I didn't really appreciate where they came from until I did my TEACCH course. The harder bit is working out how it could be adapted to a mainstream secondary. They did give us one or two ideas on our course for mainstream but a lot of bits wouldn't work. That said I don't have to try and work it out at the moment as I don't have any ASD students. In fact I only have one SEN student and they have addisons disease. Something that won't affect them in day to day education. From what I could tell it just meant if there is a problem get an ambulance quickly. I'm trying to push for my second placement to be at the mainstream school where some of the special schools' students go.