Talking about Aspie..integration

[MelowMeldrew]

Over on a BBC site they were discussing Autistics and how they can be enable to integrate via more inclusion, and an opposing view (I share), that for a percentage of aspies it aint gonna happen, no matter how much 'inclusion' is offered. There was a discussion regarding including Aspies with other disabled children, (Which I wasn't comfortable with, and my son certainly wasn't), and this view was frowned upon. Basically if I may use the adage as an expression, you can lead a horse to water etc... My own son came home over the summer holidays upset after he had been given 'days out' and trips that included disabled children with assorted disabilities in it, he cried and definitely did not want to go with them again, what was I to do ? I wouldn't see my son unhappy, and political correctness apart (Who cares for it anyway !), I wasn't going to force the issue. I've met my son's peers at his school and some will openly refuse to play with a black child, or one in a wheelchair, although it seemed cruelty, there was no obvious 'hate' or 'bullying' about it, they simply did not want in to that sort of relationship, of course there are aspies who dislike people with a different colour eye as well, we get many strange non-nos don't we !

 

There seemed a view INCLUSION was going to cut it, and segregated playtimes etc were counter-productive. I didn't find this true, my son thrives a lot better when doing things HIS way, and with his own peers...and after all, we had all failed the other ! SS and others are all gushing 'inclusive' policies and play, but my son and others are proving the exception to that rule, would parents back the child, with an obvious high stress factor with being included in mainstream and other areas, force the inclusive point... and risk other stating we are not trying ? worse encouraging their isolation ? My son's inclusion in mainstream had set him back 6 years, and there is no way he could return to it now.... he is happy with 'his own kind' and developing a happier and more balanced child, would you then insist he faces these obvious and stressful issues head on, because 'he has to' at some point it's the law ? (As if Aspies would care...).

[Karen A]

Hi. Having been around on the forum for a while I think Aspies are individuals like everyone else.I know that some children including Ben are very happy in mainstream school with approriate support and understanding.Others are very settled in specialist provision.

I would also say that some parents are very unhappy with mainstream provision as children are not understood or adequately supported.However there are also those who are having difficulties with Specialist Provision.I think it is difficult to generalise.

I think the frustrating thing for many parents is the lack of real choice.Karen.

[MelowMeldrew]

It is trying to define what inclusion actually is... parents can be put under relentless pressure to get their aspie children into 'inclusive' areas, or be driven by guilt they shouldn't feel....by inclusive the powers-to-be simply mean with other children in mainstream, and they can use the same classroom and door to go in, but from there it seems to be a grey area. It is NOT enough to put a child into an 'integrated' situation or a mainstream one, and some aspies do not want to know regardless if they get the support, others may well benefit, our children vary a lot. I know my child certainly did not, and I was left as a parent feeling very guilty I went along with mainstream inclusion, because, it was not right for him, he's in special school with his 'peers' and that as anyone with half an eye can see ideally suits him, he has improved in leaps and bounds, he really does not want in to the 'inclusive policies' the system occasionally sets up, and rejects it. There is a need to accept inclusion doesn't mean the same things to aspies as it may mean to others..... they have their own view of the world, should we not accept that ? and not try to fit them into ours...

[Karen A]

Hi.Putting AS children into mainstream without support is not inclusion as I understand it.

What about Aspies who do not want to be labled as part of a ''diferent world'' ?

The great thing about this forum is that people are valued as individuals whether they happen to be AS,NT or anything else.

As the Aspies here are perfectly capable of deciding what their view of the world is and what inclusion means to them I do not feel in a position to decide for them.Karen.

[Tjololo]

Inclusion is such a complicated issue; there are so many different types of disability and some types lend themselves to inclusion more than others, for example, a young person who is unable to use their legs, but who is NT, would probably opt for a mainstream school (if given the choice). However, when it comes to autism, the waters become very muddied as there is so much variability in how it presents. Unfortunately, it is cheaper to try to bang a square peg into a round hole than it is to 'shape sort' properly. 'Inclusion' as an ideology is similar to the concept of 'equality' and we all know that there's no such thing as equality. The rationale behind 'inclusion' (and for that matter 'equality') is admirable enough but in the real world, with real people, sometimes a square peg will simply not fit into a round hole, regardless of how much you try.

[LizC]

Hi I personally feel whatever is right for that particular child then that is the right way to go forward. i know AS children who have gone through mainstream and been fine/ok/or not too bad although sometimes hard, other as children gone through mainstream who havn't been fine. my friends son could never cope he was aways staying off school, he is now in his 20s with nothing, no job, could never cope. my son was in mainstream until the end of yr 2 and what a nightmare it was for him, he doesn't like crowds one bit so he couldn't cope in the 'normal'sized classroom, when he started yr 2 that was when it went downhill, he lasted 2mths , he was hiding under the table, singing at the top of his voice, kicking out, making noises or running off when ever he could, he hated it when they tryed to get him to do stuff with other kids, he hated assembly, the hall was too big and echoey. teachers and children alike did not understand him. he was in a room on his own with one on one help for most of that year, they tryed to get him back into the classroom but he couldn't do it, he would get as far as the classroom door and then run away again. they also couldn't get much work out him and he was only in school for 2 1/2hours a day. in september he started a new special needs school, and he is coming on leaps and bounds! he is loads happier can cope much better as it is a smaller school, with only 8 other boys in his class, there are loads of incentives and lots of trips out each week. It is a much nicer atmosphere and I never want him back in mainstream to be honest. why upset him, he is now reading and can write letters better, something he couldn't do in mainstream, I think noise was a big factor for him and it got too much info for his brain to process. put him in a quieter atmosphere and he is instantly calmer and happier, that is the main thing here is , whether the child is happy or not and getting the help he she needs and not how much the parent wants them to be in mainstream or not. does it matter?

[Karen A]

Hi I personally feel whatever is right for that particular child then that is the right way to go forward. i know AS children who have gone through mainstream and been fine/ok/or not too bad although sometimes hard, other as children gone through mainstream who havn't been fine. my friends son could never cope he was aways staying off school, he is now in his 20s with nothing, no job, could never cope. my son was in mainstream until the end of yr 2 and what a nightmare it was for him, he doesn't like crowds one bit so he couldn't cope in the 'normal'sized classroom, when he started yr 2 that was when it went downhill, he lasted 2mths , he was hiding under the table, singing at the top of his voice, kicking out, making noises or running off when ever he could, he hated it when they tryed to get him to do stuff with other kids, he hated assembly, the hall was too big and echoey. teachers and children alike did not understand him. he was in a room on his own with one on one help for most of that year, they tryed to get him back into the classroom but he couldn't do it, he would get as far as the classroom door and then run away again. they also couldn't get much work out him and he was only in school for 2 1/2hours a day. in september he started a new special needs school, and he is coming on leaps and bounds! he is loads happier can cope much better as it is a smaller school, with only 8 other boys in his class, there are loads of incentives and lots of trips out each week. It is a much nicer atmosphere and I never want him back in mainstream to be honest. why upset him, he is now reading and can write letters better, something he couldn't do in mainstream, I think noise was a big factor for him and it got too much info for his brain to process. put him in a quieter atmosphere and he is instantly calmer and happier, that is the main thing here is , whether the child is happy or not and getting the help he she needs and not how much the parent wants them to be in mainstream or not. does it matter?

 

 

Hi.I agree completely.The most important thing is whether a child is happy and getting the appropriate help.Karen.

[Flora]

I think we have to go with what works for the individual.

 

I have two sons on the spectrum. My youngest ds,Ben, as a toddler and young child was much more severe than Bill, ie, he was non-verbal, then had signifincant language delay, he didn't really learn the English language properly until he was 7. However, pan forwards several years, and my youngest child is now so much more able to cope with life than Bill is. Ben is very sociable, quirky, funny and irrepresibly enthusiastic about everything; Bill is only enthusiastic about his video games and computer, isn't interested in any sort of 'inclusion' and has said he'd rather sit in his bedroom for the rest of his life 'than step foot back in that moronic school'. Ben on the other hand 'can't wait' to go to the very same school next year and would be furious to be 'not included' in anything going on there. He'd be appalled at any sort of singling out or special treatment, whereas Bill just wants people to realise that he just doesn't want to be on the same planet as the rest of world, let alone 'included' in their schools and activities.

 

It's a question of personality types as well as anything else, and of course co-morbids play their part.

 

Flora

[Tally]

I agree, everyone is different. I went through school with absolutely no support at all because I was not diagnosed until adulthood. I was just expected to get on with it. Because I was intelligent, when I didn't cope it was seen as me being difficult or stroppy, which was not (always) the case.

 

In some ways, "inclusion" actually leads to exclusion. A child with severe sensory issues for example, may spend so much effort on coping in the classroom that they cannot learn.

 

That said, mainstreaming works really well for some autistic children, especially those who are motivated to fit in.

[MelowMeldrew]

If you put the child first, then the present inclusive policies currently enshrined in the special educational system surely do not apply, as it it is 'each according to need', what irks is the 'system' insisting parents must encourage their children to comply, or they get guilt levied on them, when really, when an Aspie has stated a preference, there is a full stop after that. Open door policies are a bit of a joke, and only work with the more compliant and adjustable Aspies, the problem again is using these appliant Aspies as the yardstick, when often they can be the exception. There are degrees of autism you can't standardise their education, nor the inclusive policies either, because they will not want to know. Personally I feel mainstreaming doesn't really work, and an excuse to close proper schooling that is more expensive. One teacher in mainstream tried to deter me from pushing for special school, saying it would isolate him, make him institutionalized,, I responded and YOUR system is better ? I think not...... she had no aspie experience and my child was nowhere near being included, not even in her lessons, because I went there and sat with him for 4 hours, and she never spoke or looked at him once, if that is mainstream I said I wouldn't want any part of it, not even as a 'norm' and promptly pulled him out. I have never regretted doing that or spending 8 years fighting his corner for special provision, I was right and the proof is in a happier and more well-adjusted child, he will not 'fit in' to mainstream, that priority is no longer mine now either, we have realized it is not for him.

[Karen A]

Hi.MelowMeldrew.Whilst I respect your opinion and am sure that you feel you did what was best for your child I think it is extremely important not to generalise regarding the most appropriate place for education to take place.It is a very individual choice.

.

Compliant and adjustable are certainly not the words that best describe Ben. However he is very happy in a mainstream school now that he has appropriate support.I am certain that he is very happy to have lots of friends who happen to not have AS.He is also very comfortable to use another forum for AS children and is very happy there too.I have absolutely no doubt that the school is far richer because Ben contributes many things and his presence there has challenged conceptions about disability amongst parents,staff and pupils.

 

Others that have followed our journey in the last couple of years know only too well that things have been very stressful at times and we have had huge issues with school.However I honestly believe that the issue is the level of support provided and it is simplistic to think it is mainly to do with where that support is provided.

 

I do think it is worth emphasising that I fully accept that some children will be far happier in specialist provision.However having argued so often that it is wrong for LEAs to use blanket policies in quantifying provision it would be totaly hypocritical of me to say that mainstream is always a lesser option.

 

Incidently in our area the Specialist provision is excellent and there are plans to expand it-far from closing it down.What is more I do not believe that supporting those chidren who's parents choose mainstream with quality appropriate support is a necessarily a less costly option.

 

I am not saying that the experience your child had was not very difficult and that it was ok.However what you describe is effectively ''internal segregation'' rather than inclusion.Many here have had similar experiences -some in mainstream and others in specialist provision.It has most to do with the attitude of teaching staff and the quality of teaching.

Karen.

[curra]

My son could cope with mainstream to a certain extent better when he was in primary school because he was not so aware of his own differences and he was most of the time OK being left alone as long as he had something to do that he liked. Now it's very different, he feels that the school forces him to be with peers who reject him or laugh at him , and he refuses having to socialize with people who don't accept him and at times tease him. The school on the other hand, insists that he has to learn to socialize and therefore put up with typical teenage behaviour, playing down his anxiety and poor achievement as "lack of effort" .They show little understanding of the anxiety that my son suffers because he hides his emotions when he's at school. When my son is at his lowest and refuses to go to school, then they complain about his poor attendance and send me the EWO. If this is what inclusion is about, I am against it because it's used as a convenient, cheap way to deal with some special needs children who are not emotionally ready for it.

 

 

Curra

[MelowMeldrew]

I'm not going to feel any more guilt about it frankly, mainstream was bad for my child, and he is better where he is now, I felt it day one really, but went with inclusion for far too long.. I do not believe WITH support in mainstream and there wasn't much that's true ! my son would still have coped, his peers were not there, and he didn't relate to mainstream others. Mainstream shove them in annexe's that were not inclusion let's face it.....will not suit all Autistics, nor mainstream has any ability to cope with some of them, head teachers are FORCED to take in special needs children, despite complaining to superiors they haven't the qualified staff. Mainstream certainly in Wales is total pants for any autistic, I defy the system to prove any differently. Simple statistics would show, you can't accommodate thousands in just ONE special school in S Wales, that is already over full with 100, no wonder they plug 'inclusion' ! it's an opt out, they want US to feel guilty THEY aren't up to the job..... if support is NOT in Mainstream then the only sole option is specialised schooling, and you should just go for that, not slogging it out for years in the hope they may provide 'some' help, our children are the losers.... we all need to get very tough at day one..... the price for delay is too much for our children. NO trained staff, NO mainstream ! and you have to check their qualifications too, which is another issue... is your child's teacher qualified ? or just means well !

[baddad]

Hi all -

 

Coming to this a bit late, but for what it's worth I don't think there are any absolute rights and wrongs when it comes to education, and provision can only be looked at in terms of what it offers the individual.

I have friends who's children have been appropriately supported in special schools and who have benefited from it enormously. They would, I'm sure, be able to report that my son's mainstream primary education has been equally beneficial to him.

By the same token, I could point to children in both environments who have been disenfranchised, undervalued and undersupported, and have had their opportunities and expectations undermined as a consequence.

All of these children are on the spectrum, all of them face similar problems and issues. The differences arise because they are motivated - positively and negatively -by completely different things and have completely different aspirations (if that's the right word) about how, with whom and to what degree they want to integrate with the world.

 

Earlier in the thread Tjololo mentioned square pegs and round holes, and the failure of the system to shape-sort properly. I agree with that emphatically, and with the view expressed elsewhere that some specialised units in mainstream schools are nothing less than 'holding tanks'. Having said that, though, there are many other peg-shapes than 'square' and 'round', and the current holes that exist to accommodate them might be equally unsuitable in either, or, or both of the current environments.

 

Going back to a very early point in this thread; one thing that disturbs me is the wording surrounding 'Political Correctness'. I'm sure it wasn't meant the way it sounded, but as far as the question 'Who care About It?' goes I've got to say I do - very much. Not about all of the silly semantics about wording and stuff, but the absolute foundations of it regarding equality and human rights. As parents of children (or as adults on the spectrum, or as carers/supporters of adults on the spectrum) we have to deal with the implications of negative differentiation and prejudice every day - so i think we are shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't see those basic principles as a universal construct.

In the same way, I dont believe that any of our children's prejudices can be justified by their status as autistic people. For some of our children those concepts and the understanding of them may never be achievable, but I don't think we should ever stop trying, or leading by example. Most prejudices arise from fear, not from natural inclination, and helping our children to overcome their fears - whatever their source - has got to be one of the most enabling things we can do for them, even if it does sometimes challenge their 'comfort zones'.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Bard]

Going back to a very early point in this thread; one thing that disturbs me is the wording surrounding 'Political Correctness'. I'm sure it wasn't meant the way it sounded, but as far as the question 'Who care About It?' goes I've got to say I do - very much. Not about all of the silly semantics about wording and stuff, but the absolute foundations of it regarding equality and human rights. As parents of children (or as adults on the spectrum, or as carers/supporters of adults on the spectrum) we have to deal with the implications of negative differentiation and prejudice every day - so i think we are shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't see those basic principles as a universal construct.

In the same way, I dont believe that any of our children's prejudices can be justified by their status as autistic people. For some of our children those concepts and the understanding of them may never be achievable, but I don't think we should ever stop trying, or leading by example. Most prejudices arise from fear, not from natural inclination, and helping our children to overcome their fears - whatever their source - has got to be one of the most enabling things we can do for them, even if it does sometimes challenge their 'comfort zones'.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

I'm nailing my colours to the mast along with you Baddad, and agree wholeheartedly.

Edited November 13, 2007 by Bard

[bid]

My own son came home over the summer holidays upset after he had been given 'days out' and trips that included disabled children with assorted disabilities in it, he cried and definitely did not want to go with them again, what was I to do ? I wouldn't see my son unhappy, and political correctness apart (Who cares for it anyway !), I wasn't going to force the issue. I've met my son's peers at his school and some will openly refuse to play with a black child, or one in a wheelchair, although it seemed cruelty, there was no obvious 'hate' or 'bullying' about it, they simply did not want in to that sort of relationship, of course there are aspies who dislike people with a different colour eye as well, we get many strange non-nos don't we !

 

I'm not trying to be contentious here, but MM what would your reaction be if other children reacted like this to your son because of his difficulties/colour, etc?

 

Bid

[Flora]

I'm not trying to be contentious here, but MM what would your reaction be if other children reacted like this to your son because of his difficulties/colour, etc?

 

Bid

 

Absolutely !!!!

 

I think there are two different things being mixed up here in MM's post, one is integration and the other discrimination... the two should not be confused or connected in any way or we are going into very contentious and unacceptable territory. Neither should have a baring on the other, under any circumstances. If my boys were ever negative about other people for race/colour/disability regardless of their own difficulties it would not be tollerated for one second; it's downright unacceptable, no ifs or buts.

 

Flora

[Karen A]

Absolutely !!!!

 

I think there are two different things being mixed up here in MM's post, one is integration and the other discrimination... the two should not be confused or connected in any way or we are going into very contentious and unacceptable territory. Neither should have a baring on the other, under any circumstances. If my boys were ever negative about other people for race/colour/disability regardless of their own difficulties it would not be tollerated for one second; it's downright unacceptable, no ifs or buts.

 

Flora

 

 

I agree Flora.I think probably most of us on the Forum who have children with ASD/AS and various forms of disability have been on the recieving end of discrimation.We are unfortunately all too aware of how it feels to condone it.Karen.

[Karen A]

Hi al

.

 

Going back to a very early point in this thread; one thing that disturbs me is the wording surrounding 'Political Correctness'. I'm sure it wasn't meant the way it sounded, but as far as the question 'Who care About It?' goes I've got to say I do - very much. Not about all of the silly semantics about wording and stuff, but the absolute foundations of it regarding equality and human rights. As parents of children (or as adults on the spectrum, or as carers/supporters of adults on the spectrum) we have to deal with the implications of negative differentiation and prejudice every day - so i think we are shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't see those basic principles as a universal construct.

In the same way, I dont believe that any of our children's prejudices can be justified by their status as autistic people. For some of our children those concepts and the understanding of them may never be achievable, but I don't think we should ever stop trying, or leading by example. Most prejudices arise from fear, not from natural inclination, and helping our children to overcome their fears - whatever their source - has got to be one of the most enabling things we can do for them, even if it does sometimes challenge their 'comfort zones'.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

 

Baddad.I think you are spot on too.So am happy to add my colours to the mast. Karen.

[Stella63]

Hi

 

I've been following this thread with interest and coincidentally at one of the lectures I attended last week for my postgrad in Aspergers, Jacqui Ashton Smith said the following;

 

Is the school providing inclusive education, where the school has adapted to include the child or is it integration, where it is the child who has to adapt. So who is doing the adapting, child or school????????

 

Stella x

[oxgirl]

I totally agree with Baddad and others who posted after him, it's one thing to be discussing whether our ASD children can cope in mainstream school and quite another to be suggesting that they should be allowed to reject others who are different from them in either race or physical ability. I am working very hard with my AS son to teach him to be tolerant and respectful to all those around him, whatever their problems or differences. I certainly would not allow him to think that choosing a child to play with according to the colour of their skin was acceptable.

 

~ Mel ~

[Flora]

Is the school providing inclusive education, where the school has adapted to include the child or is it integration, where it is the child who has to adapt. So who is doing the adapting, child or school????????

 

Stella x

 

This is the exact point I've been trying, without success, to get accross to those involved in my son's education. My ds has had CBT, medication, etc in order to help him cope within mainstream with little or no adapatation to his environment with the result that he has been out of school since March and is adamant he isn't going back.

 

I reckon my ds is one of those instances where 'inclusion' is tantamount to abuse.

 

flora

[kellyanne]

.He is also very comfortable to use another forum for AS children

 

 

hi karen

 

sorry to go off the topic of discussion but i was reading through and saw the above quote and wondeered if you would be able to tell me which forum this is as i think it may benefit my ds to know there is somewhere he can go and share 'kiddie' things :-)

 

Thank you

 

kellyanne

[annie]

I would be mortified if I heard either of my boys discriminating other people for their race/disabilities. We've always taught them to accept people for who they are, not what they are.

 

Inclusion in mainstream is something that just isn't as straightforward as it sounds. If all children with AS (for example) presented with the same difficulties in the same areas, were placed in schools with staff who were fully trained and understanding of their needs, it could work.........but, in the real world, things aren't just like that. Difficulties vary between children, training and understanding varies, funding is limited etc. etc. etc. Inclusion for all as we were told by those up high just isn't as simple as it has been made out to be. For some, it's never going to work. Unfortunately, while the people that make decisions based on limited funding and 'general across the board' needs rather than 'individual' a lot of children are being severly let down.

[MelowMeldrew]

There appears to be some jumping of the gun regarding my comment. I was simply stating some Autistics will reject things with no thought or care other than they just 'don't like the situation', our children reject many things others take for granted, e.g. smells, colours, the way some people talk or act, it's a no-no for them. I was not suggesting in any way that an autstic rejecting a cloured person or a disabled should get our approval, I am just saying in their respect and to understand where they come from is far from clear, but it is NOT via prejudice (Which I think some suggested I would allow to happen), my son rejects numerous things, as I suspect many other parents will understand, we cannot pick and choose which one is allright for them to reject, it comes from them. My son does not like playing with other disabled children, of course we tell him this is not nice, it will upset them, he says 'they upset me. I don't like it..'. although I cannot get a clear description of why from him. It is not hate, or bullying or anything like that, he simply feels in his own mind better, if he doesn't mix with them, do you force this ? All you can do is reiterate, it's not viewed as acceptable, (YOU try telling an aspie what acceptable means !), and try NOT to make an issue over it, because that is the worst you can do....and see if he changes later on, that's my stance anyway, I saw nothing to be gained by being heavy-handed, I certainly would not condone his stance, but he genuinely was upset, and I could see that.. perhaps exposure to things he doesn't like has to be done a lot more slowly than we thought. There are people I wouldn't cross the road to bother with, so find it hard to force the issue... and before you ask, my mate in the deaf club has no arms ! who my son doesn't seem to mind at all ? perhaps it's wheelchairs or something ?

[Karen A]

I don't think there has been any ''jumping of the gun'' in the responses that have been posted.

 

In the original post there was very little to suggest that you would do anything other than condone your DSs stance.

It is very important to consider that the Forum is used by parents and individuals with AS- both adults and teenagers.

Having an interest in ASD does not preclude one from having other disabilities-including being a wheelchair user.

Hence some Forum users could be rightly be offended by the original post.

I would also add that discrimination arises frequently when people condone it.

 

Many of the users of the Forum are those people ''who people wouldn't cross the road to bother with'' because they or their children behave in ways that people find different or difficult to understand.Perhaps that is why some of us think it is important to take a strong stand.

 

There are lots of things that chidren with AS find difficult however it is important to work hard to help them learn different ways of dealing with those things.

Some children with ASD do not like to be prevented from running into traffic when out-however no parent would knowingly allow their child with AS to run along the side of the road because restraining them might be stressful.Karen.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Karen A
mistake in wording

[baddad]

Hi MM -

 

FWIW I certainly wasn't implying any prejudice or you allowing it - I actually made a point of saying that:

I'm sure it wasn't meant the way it sounded,

...

 

On the other hand, I do think your suggestion that 'you shouldn't make an issue out of it' or not be 'heavy handed' is very niaive...

Some things have to be spelled out very precisely, IMO, and this is one of them. That's not to say it'll make a difference, but I sort of think that's a moot point.

Prejudice of any kind tends to be a learnt response - watch very small children playing and you can see that. 'Innocent' children speak freely and openly about differences they see while those with wider experience react in tune with their peers/influences...

You are as a parent undoubtedly one of the foremost influences on how your child perceives the world, and in reinforcing your childs prejudices as 'no biggy' you appear to endorse the negative responses of others, even if you don't. On the other hand, sending a very clear message that YOU view those negative responses as wrong sends a very powerful message to your child regardless of any other influences that come into the equation.

Whether you push your child to 'engage' with people from other ethnic backgrounds or who are disabled is a slightly different thing (personally, I would/do -as i hope others would encourage their children to include my son rather than negatively judging him as different), but if you help your child not to view them negatively in the first place it's actually not an issue anyway.

As I said in my first post, I don't think for one minute that you are encouraging your child in his prejudices, but from what you've said in this last post you do seem to be accepting them, which to a child is almost the same thing.

IMO Prejudice of any kind is a big issue, and needs to be responded to as such,

 

L&P

 

BD

[Suze]

I think we must remember how different all our kids are.Sensory perceptions can vary greatly,social skills and interests.My son is doing much better now he attends a mainstream unit attached to a high school.He gets to integrate and retreat ,and the staff who work with him all have a wealth of knowledge in autism.Of course his placement would,nt work for everyone but it works for him.Interestingly he finds mixing with some of his fellow autistics difficult as they don,t follow rules , have the same interests as him and they frequently fall out.My son also mixes with alot of other special needs children via the unit and one of his friends has downs syndrome, he also shares a taxi with her.His teachers have commented that they think my son does,nt actually know she has downs as he takes everyone as he finds them.He has problems with other kids and adults usually if they don,t follow rules etc and can get angry and upset about these situations.I think my point is that all our kids are different and its important to remember that what suits one does,nt suit another.

[Bard]

YOU try telling an aspie what acceptable means !

 

But I do, regularly. I explain to B in different ways and at different times what I, and others find acceptable or not. I have done since he was tiny. This is backed up by other members of our family in a calm and consistent manner. Sometimes I'm told things by them, and then left to work out what the next step should be.

If he is to live, function and enjoy being a part of society, then he has to learn to recognise the rules and boundaries, and to work out ways of managing to live with them. Otherwise he might be judged, rejected or attacked for something he didn't realise was wrong or insensitive. That's a separate issue to the idea that racism, and prejudice in general is something that everyone should challenge, which I also believe.

I totally agree that the process of getting any child to explore their own prejudices, likes and dislikes, should be done slowly and without judgement or annoyance on the part of the adult involved. But there ought to be no lack of clarity about what is acceptable and what is not.

[MelowMeldrew]

I tend to react rather simplistically, if something upsets my son, I'm not going to add to it by forcing the issue, relationships (THIS is what he issue is about mainly with Autistics), are a complex issue, in part they don't understand how they work, of course my child is taught people would view his reluctance as something not acceptable, but there is a hierarchy there of relationships he doesn't understand. He just may not like the way they speak or something. My son is with peers now and many of them have likes and dislikes EVERYONE does. . It can be a black and white situation for aspies, they are still trying to grasp very basic relationship aspects, I doubt my son sees a disabled person or a coloured person as any different, he knows what he likes and doesn't. Something they have said, done or whatever he doesn't like. You cannot tell an Aspie or anyone else what they must like or accept. Adults here wouldn't be told, so how do you tell a child ? Do what I say, but not do as I do ? Kids will crack that in seconds...

 

 

 

 

I have moderated this post as I felt some of the content was inflamatory and so removed that section in line with forum rules.Karen A.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Karen A
To comply with forum rules

[pearl]

JP isn't particularly prejudiced, but some of his obsessions can make it appear that way. For instance, male pattern baldness, smoking (he is profoundly anti) and obesity (again part of the healthy living thing)

 

So if we were out & about & we spotted an overweight, follicly challenged, smoker approaching us, I would hold my breath until he was safely past.

 

I can now pretty much trust him not to say anything in public. He still says stuff to us, (nothing really horrible, just pointing out facts really) to release the pressure, at which point I say, well I hope you wouldnt say that to anyone else, he goes of COURSE not! So I suppose all my nagging must have had some effect.

Edited November 18, 2007 by pearl

[Tally]

You cannot tell an Aspie or anyone else what they must like or accept. Adults here wouldn't be told, so how do you tell a child ? Do what I say, but not do as I do ? Kids will crack that in seconds...

Why would you need to tell them not to do as you do? Leading by example is probably the best way to teach children what is and isn't acceptable.

You can't tell people what to like, but you can teach them what to accept, and what can and cannot be said. I work with a man who has very racist views. No one can change his opinion, but he knows that it is unacceptable to air these views at work. He will get sacked if he is racist at work. Your son is going to come into contact with all sorts of people throughout his life, and the more you can challenge his prejudices, the better he will get on with other people.

 

FYI, "coloured" is an outdated and offensive term.

[Bard]

If you are saying disabled and black people are NOT prejudiced as well, that's another topic ! My experience is they are VERY angry people mostly.

 

Certainly not. I worked up north for almost a decade. Some of the nastiest racism, and the most impressive riots were between Pakistani and Bengali. And the parents were mostly the origin of the prejudice.

Except when the two groups merged to attack another ethnic group. This was also the same area where some autistic or epileptic children in the community were exorcized to drive out the jinn that had possessed them.

So working on acceptance and tolerance within a community was fundamental to every day in school.

It's just that I feel if I don't help B understand that his likes and dislikes could be misjudged by other individuals or groups, and work on helping him to develop a more tolerant attitude, there may come a time in the future when he's getting the **** beaten out of him by people who disapprove of his attitude, and respond with a more 'hands on' approach. He's almost 13, I can't keep him with me forever.

 

PS The latest thing he doesn't get are why blonde jokes are funny, but it's not OK to tell a blonde that everyone knows that she's stupid, and that B should be in charge of the experiment.

He's also puzzled why blondes are allowed to be teachers if they're so stupid.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Bard

[Mumble]

You cannot tell an Aspie or anyone else what they must like or accept. Adults here wouldn't be told

I come here for advice about things I haven't understood - and I value the advice I get. There is a difference between telling and teaching. I think there are different levels to this - at one level the laws of the country do tell people how they must behave - it is then their choice whether to follow these or not and they have to accept that if they do not, they have to put up with the consequences. There are also social 'rules' Again the same applies, but as an Aspie, I need, in some situations, some support in learning what the appropriate thing to do is - and I think at times this has to be quite direct - 'this is the rule of what to do in this situation' - and actually that sort of thing is quite reassuring to me (accept of course when all the 'exceptions to the rule' come out ) - but I have the choice whether I do them or not - and hence whether I have the consequences of doing them or not.

 

I have moderated this post as it contained a quote from another post that I moderated .Regards Karen.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Karen A
Removal of quotation.

[Mumble]

The latest thing he doesn't get are why blonde jokes are funny

Well that's easy - they're not funny

[pearl]

Well that's easy - they're not funny

 

S subverted the stereotype by wearing a T shirt that said, I'm a natural blonde... please speak slowly

[Bard]

Well that's easy - they're not funny

 

I know, but his sister and some of his classmates think that they are.

B's science teacher is blonde...

[Cat]

OK then what if the dislike of another disabled person is a sensory issue where the autistic person is concerned? I have a friend whose son started off by saying that he hated being with another child who was disabled. His Mum was of course shocked especially as the other child was severely so and both Mums were good friends. However no matter what my friend said her son would continue saying that he hated the other child. Then when there were outings coming up my friend noticed that her son would begin to look ill and say that he was feeling ill and did not want to go. If he was made to go no matter what they did or where they went he would refuse to eat, or even look at this child, always asking if he could go back to the car. My friend was becoming most upset, but said that after being out with this child it took her son days to get over the outing. He came to visit us one day while Mum was out with her other friend. The visit to us was pre-arranged. Mum said that her son had now given up eating anywhere else other than in his own home, but he sat and ate with us. I said to him that I hoped his Mum was having a good time with her friend and her child and that was when we finally got to the bottom of everything. First of all he said that he did not care just so long as he did not have to be there and that he hated the other child. And then he said 'look look this is what it is like when I am out with them' He started putting food into his mouth and spitting it out across the table. Then he went very white and looked ill himself. I knew at once what the problem was but because he is autistic he could not put it into words himself. So I asked him was it the 'spit' that he hated and he said yes. He said it goes everywhere all of the time, but it is worse when X is eating and it makes me feel sick.

 

So do you punish him for feeling like that? Do you make him keep going where the other disabled child is? I certainly would not and nor does his Mum now.

 

My own son feels physically ill when he sees a person who had a limb missing. He is now 20 and even though he is autistic he feels very ashamed of himself but he can not change the way he feels. Do I berate him for feeling like this? Our children are disabled themselves and while I am in no way saying that we should ever encourage them where discrimination is concerned I do think that sometimes there are 'hidden' reasons, just as the autism is hidden, and we should not jump to conclusions.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Cat

[Bard]

he is happy with 'his own kind' and developing a happier and more balanced child, would you then insist he faces these obvious and stressful issues head on, because 'he has to' at some point it's the law ? (As if Aspies would care...).

 

How long can you keep him with 'his own kind'?

Facing issues head on often leads to a damaging collision and anger, rather than knowledge and understanding.

One of the reasons that 'It's the law' is to avoid discrimination, and also to avoid rough justice being meeted out to those who have given offence.

You may feel that Aspies wouldn't care, but the consequences of expressing extreme dislike and fear of someone can often be severe for both parties involved.

Cat, you and your friend didn't jump to conclusions and judge or punish him, but neither did you let it be and assume that he hated the other child for being disabled, and that was the answer. You both spent time and effort into calmly discovering what was the exact issue was. No. I wouldn't make him 'face the issue head on' but now you all know what in particular he found so impossible to manage, and that helps you to work out the next step.

Your son can't help the way he feels about missing limbs, but he knows that calling people names, shouting at them or hitting them because they have a limb missing is not acceptable.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Bard

[Karen A]

Hi all.

We are concerned this thread has veered away from the original topic of integration. It is obvious that people hold differing opinions regarding how to support children with ASD in dealing with others who are different to them. We believe that consensus will not be reached via further discussion and suggest strongly that any further posts adhere to the original topic.

If further responses are posted on this thread that are liable to stir up strong responses amongst forum users the moderating team will review whether to close the thread.

Regards Karen .