Today's Daily Mail

[NickyB]

I would never agree that having an autistic child has 'wrecked' my life - it's merely changed it from what it might have been, and that can happen to anyone for any number of reasons, no matter what their circumstances. It's also broadened my perspective in general and led me to some wonderful friendships

 

As for anyone who suggests that it's all an excuse for bad parenting , perhaps they should spend some time with a family affected by ASD - I'm sure their minds would be broadened as a result (well, maybe !!)

 

Right, I'm stopping there before I explode with rage :angry:

 

I'd like to add this now that I've calmed down a bit!

 

Yes, there have been times where it all feels too much to cope with but that's far outweighed by my love for my child. My son is not severely autistic and I would not wish to judge anyone else in different circumstances to mine. I cannot begin to imagine how the parents mentioned in the article feel, and I think it would have been interesting to hear 'both sides' as it were.

 

The article came across to me as a very narrow view of living with autism and there was no attempt at any balance. I feel that the writer's views could have been given alongside those directly affected by ASD. I'm concerned that people with no personal knowledge of the condition will think that that's how it is for everyone, and that anyone who is awaiting dx or has concerns about their child would be very anxious on reading such an article.

 

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[sonj186]

i felt sick when i read this! its disgusting! we all have times when things get too much but cam has not ruined my life! i thinknif there had been a test when i was pregnant and it came back possitive i would have panicked and i might not have my lovely boy now and that scares me!

[CEJesson]

This is one of the battles we usually have to face, and it is extremely similar to what I have been writing about in my essay, albeit that is about racism.

 

Racial segregation in some localities can even be influenced by reading newspapers and articles that are biased towards a particular viewpoint. ?Immigration? and ?Asylum? are two such terms that are heavily manipulated by the media in the developed world.

 

The same applies to medical conditions, especially in the smudgy print of the Daily Mail, which seems a lot worse than it was 3-5 years ago for controversy.

Edited January 17, 2009 by CEJesson

[ian stuart-hamilton]

I'm only surprised they didn't blame autism for falling house prices.

 

Sincere apologies for inadvertently repeating another person's joke - part of the page must have skipped when I was reading the comments.

 

I mentioned this article to a friend who said that when he was looking for a house a while ago and in each area he looked he made a point of visiting the local newsagent. If it had a high percentage of deliveries of the Daily Mail, he crossed the area off his list. I personally wouldn't go that far (I know some perfectly nice Daily Mail readers, but they seem largely to read it for its personal finance section, which from what I've seen, seems pretty good).

[pearl]

I can't help thinking that the tolerance and understanding that we wish others to give us seems to be somewhat absent in some of your responses. I agree that the title was sensationalist and causes a knee-jerk reaction against it before one even begins to read the article.

 

That was kind of what I was trying to express in my post, Anna, which is why I told my friends story. As Mumble says, balance is important - we should feel free here to post when life is bad, and also when it is good.

 

Yes, its an upsetting article - but I presume, as their friend, the journalist obtained the parents permission before publication? If she didnt it was remiss of her & I'd expect the parents to have right of reply.

 

One last comment - I have also seen posts on here criticising articles which celebrate autism, as hearing about "superparents" who raise half a dozen kids on the spectrum, or who start their own schools, can make us feel very inadequate.

Edited January 17, 2009 by pearl

[lisac]

Are you saying that people observing should'nt be writing about their opinions ? Take away love, and constant severe, damaging behaviour, must seem unimaginable to constantly live with , to an outsider.

People will always write what they think, whether we like it or not, the Daily Mail could have balanced this out and included a piece from a parents positive point of view.

[CEJesson]

People will always write what they think, whether we like it or not, the Daily Mail could have balanced this out and included a piece from a parents positive point of view.

 

But they deliberately wouldn't have done, as they are a bit crass like that.

[Karen A]

[

I am worried that some desperate parents will read things on this forum and feel even more guilty, wretched and ashamed at the very time that they need nurturing, reassuring, assistance and acceptance.

 

I think the main issue is that the article was not written by a parent .There is no recognition that the parent was consulted.It is the opinion of a reporter .I have thought a lot in the last few days and wonder whether the article is partly fictional.I hope I would never have the missfortune to have a friend write such an article about any of my experiences.It is patronising and unhelpful.

 

.Edited to remove content liable to send the thread off topic.After reflection.Karen.

Edited January 17, 2009 by Karen A

[lisac]

So it needs to be taken up with the Daily Mail then. When one person writes that they think one autistic person's life would have been better unlived, they are not talking about you personally. Would you disagree,If this article had been written by a parent?

[edith simon]

The article is disgusting!!!!

My son is 22 and we went through very very bad times but now I can see a young man who can enjoy his life and has got an iron will to want to learn to read and write who has lots of frustration as people do not understand him but still wants to live like we "normal?" people do and his will and achievement are inspirational ,hi gratitude for all our help is big and I love him to bits.......and admire him as well.

However there were of course short periads when I thought he would have never born but it lasted for a short period only and altogther I would not swap him with my other two sons who are "normals".

 

Difficult but rewarding job and I have never received so much kindness from anybody but my son with autism with severe leanrning diff.

Not as I am not down a little bit from time to time.

 

I do not like when people who have no autistic kids show that they are such good "exports"!!!!!!!!

Good luck to all of you who is against this stupid article!!

Edith Simon

[Karen A]

Having read through the article again a few thoughts come to mind.The reporter apparently observed behaviour in her friends child at two that was enough to raise concerns and knew enough to reccount the issue in detail in a newspaper article....but there is nothing to suggest she did anything to help.

The reporter has apparently been a ''friend '' for years and yet is also a ''dispassionate observer''.

....I could go on. with a friend like that one does not need enemies.

 

[edith simon]

So it needs to be taken up with the Daily Mail then. When one person writes that they think one autistic person's life would have been better unlived, they are not talking about you personally. Would you disagree,If this article had been written by a parent?

I personaly would disagree and my interpretation would be that this parent feels sad and angry and would need the right support which does not come usually from only "proffessional" people.

I think we all have time to time negative feelings about our auties but then we have maybe rewarding moments too.

Tricky!Autism really can be sometimes a "blessing in disguise!" at least I think.

Edith

[Kathryn]

I can't help thinking that the tolerance and understanding that we wish others to give us seems to be somewhat absent in some of your responses. I agree that the title was sensationalist and causes a knee-jerk reaction against it before one even begins to read the article.

 

 

I don't wish to judge Cathy and John. I am fortunate, for my life would not be better without my son and my son is extremely contented and confident about himself. But for Cathy, John and the Tom at the moment maybe this is how they feel and surely that is valid. It may change, I hope very much it does but they must be allowed to express what they feel, free of guilt in the knowledge that the autistic community support them. Maybe the journalist would have been advised to make it clear that whilst many of us struggle the vast majority still feel that their child is an enormous asset to their family

Nobody is judging Cathy and John, but the way the article is written. We don't know how they feel, because they haven't expressed any views (if indeed they are real people) which is the point many people are making.

 

I am worried that some desperate parents will read things on this forum and feel even more guilty, wretched and ashamed at the very time that they need nurturing, reassuring, assistance and acceptance.

 

I think support and acceptance is always here for people who need it. If Cathy anf John themselves posted here seeking that, I'm sure that's what they would get. People frequently post about their struggles with their children.

 

This is a discussion, not a support thread and people are entitled to give their honest views about the issues. There is a wide range of opinion and experience here.

 

K x

 

[edith simon]

i felt sick when i read this! its disgusting! we all have times when things get too much but cam has not ruined my life! i thinknif there had been a test when i was pregnant and it came back possitive i would have panicked and i might not have my lovely boy now and that scares me!

I fully agree with you.I would greatly regret if I had had a test before and I would not have my son.

all the best

Edith

[edith simon]

Go to the mail and make your vote against the test /if existed one/ if you disagree with prenatal test to detect autism in babies.I did

Edith

[Canopus]

People will always write what they think, whether we like it or not, the Daily Mail could have balanced this out and included a piece from a parents positive point of view.

 

Artificially balancing things out makes the bias worse rather than better. I'm opposed to this practice in the name of impartiality.

 

I have thought a lot in the last few days and wonder whether the article is partly fictional.

 

It has crossed my mind that the article could be fabricated as a piece of hoax journalism - possibly done to attract comments in order to get a picture of public opinion. Some of the comments could be fictional as well. A higher than expected proportion are from people with some involvement with autistic people. It wouldn't surprise me if they were from people with a grievance towards autistic people but had never met any in real life.

 

[Karen A]

Regarding the genetic screening - I certainly feel that there are genetic advantages to society from autism genes and of course, most of us wouldn't be without our child(ren) given the choice. However, surely it is a matter of personal choice whether someone who already has an autistic child decideds that they would prefer not to have another

 

Hi.I agree that having children is a very personal choice....whether there is an increased chance of ASD or not.My husband and myself decided to not have any more children because I had had two caesareans and we knew we would not want to go through the experience again.I also experienced mental health problems when my second child was young.We decided that the best option was for OH to have the snip.So would never judge anyone else.We did not know when OH had the snip that Ben would be found to have AS.For those who have not been around here so long Ben was dx a couple of months ago at 10.However to be honest the last couple of years have been very stressful.I do not think I would have coped very well with having another child.If I had another child with ASD I think my ability to cope and to care for my two lads would have been severely tested.I think our marriage would have been severely tested too.It is not that I don't love both the boys.The issues are I think a lot broader than being purely about ASD and genetic screening.How able a family is to cope with any situation depends on so many factors including issues like social support.

 

However it is worth remembering that even though there appears to be a genetic factor in ASD it is not staightforward as in some other genetically linked conditions.We have one son who has absolutely no signs of ASD.We have no previous individuals on either side of the family with ASD although there may well be dyspraxia on my side of the family.

.

If parents had a child with ASD and were able to have genetic screening via amniocentisis for a subsequent child in the future it would not be a simple procedure either in terms of risk or in terms of the emotional implications.Amniocentisis is not without risk of misscariage.

[lisac]

The article is disgusting!!!!

My son is 22 and we went through very very bad times but now I can see a young man who can enjoy his life and has got an iron will to want to learn to read and write who has lots of frustration as people do not understand him but still wants to live like we "normal?" people do and his will and achievement are inspirational ,hi gratitude for all our help is big and I love him to bits.......and admire him as well.

However there were of course short periads when I thought he would have never born but it lasted for a short period only and altogther I would not swap him with my other two sons who are "normals".

 

Difficult but rewarding job and I have never received so much kindness from anybody but my son with autism with severe leanrning diff.

Not as I am not down a little bit from time to time.

 

I do not like when people who have no autistic kids show that they are such good "exports"!!!!!!!!

Good luck to all of you who is against this stupid article!!

Edith Simon

 

[lisac]

I think the article was written well and makes a good point

[Mumble]

I think the article was written well and makes a good point

Forgive me for being naive, but what point exactly does the article make? If it is that of the title, then it is inaccurate and certainly not 'good'. This could only be described as accurate if given the title "Autism ruined our family" and was highlighted as a personal article (so also would have been needed to have been written by the author) and only about one family's experiences/perceptions, not a generic "what autism is/does" article as it is written to come across.

 

[baddad]

Hi mumble/all -

 

As I said in my post above: I think the article is sensationalist and one-sided and feeds into the prejudices of exactly the kind of people who have responded with similar sensationalist, one-sided views. That said, having an autistic child can and does have a huge impact on the lives of parents, and from the outsiders perspective (and that of some parents, who, however much of a minority they might be might find the views in this article more representative for them than the views of (i.e.) me who see it very differently) 'ruin' might not be too strong a word.

There are all sorts of issues underpinning that - social responses/funding/resources/prejudice etc - and none of those factors are addressed in the article and they should be - if you're going to say something as inflamatory as that then you should back it up with a realistic examination of the reasons why - but it doesn't mean that everything in the article is inaccurate. Some of it is just (incredibly) badly represented...

 

I'd certainly disagree with lisac's view that the artcilce is 'well written' because it is written with an incredible degree of personal bias, but i think some of the content is reflective of the reality for many parents of autistic children in terms of the impact having a child with autism can have on their lives... I think (and correct me if i'm making assumptions, Lisa) that's what Lisa meant when she said 'good point' rather than the way you've interpreted it as 'good' in being a 'positive' or 'accurate' reflection.

( ) hope i've said that in a way that makes sense... as i'm found of saying, it did when i thunk it!

 

L&P

 

BD

[Mumble]

'ruin' might not be too strong a word.

I guess the problem I have with 'ruin' (or any word) is that we (as in no one) don't know what it would have been like without the autistic child, so I don't think anyone can say, with certainty, that it is the child's autism that has caused anyone's lives to be ruined. We make countless choices and decisions everyday - some we're aware of, some spontaneous, some without being 'aware' and any or all of them interacting in a multitude of ways will impact on a multitude of outcomes.

 

I think (and correct me if i'm making assumptions, Lisa) that's what Lisa meant when she said 'good point' rather than the way you've interpreted it as 'good' in being a 'positive' or 'accurate' reflection.

Fair enough if that's what she meant.

 

[pearl]

Hi mumble/all -

 

As I said in my post above: I think the article is sensationalist and one-sided and feeds into the prejudices of exactly the kind of people who have responded with similar sensationalist, one-sided views. That said, having an autistic child can and does have a huge impact on the lives of parents, and from the outsiders perspective (and that of some parents, who, however much of a minority they might be might find the views in this article more representative for them than the views of (i.e.) me who see it very differently) 'ruin' might not be too strong a word.

There are all sorts of issues underpinning that - social responses/funding/resources/prejudice etc - and none of those factors are addressed in the article and they should be - if you're going to say something as inflamatory as that then you should back it up with a realistic examination of the reasons why - but it doesn't mean that everything in the article is inaccurate. Some of it is just (incredibly) badly represented...

 

I'd certainly disagree with lisac's view that the artcilce is 'well written' because it is written with an incredible degree of personal bias, but i think some of the content is reflective of the reality for many parents of autistic children in terms of the impact having a child with autism can have on their lives... I think (and correct me if i'm making assumptions, Lisa) that's what Lisa meant when she said 'good point' rather than the way you've interpreted it as 'good' in being a 'positive' or 'accurate' reflection.

( ) hope i've said that in a way that makes sense... as i'm found of saying, it did when i thunk it!

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Baddad, I agree with every word of this.

*faints*

[baddad]

Baddad, I agree with every word of this.

*faints*

 

 

 

L&P

 

BD

 

[dana]

Who's to say that your perfect NT baby won't fall in with the wrong crowd when they're 16, become addicted to crack, end up living on the streets and turn to robbery and assaulting little old ladies to feed their heroin habit. Wouldn't that 'wreck your life' or would the parents just be relieved that at least they weren't autistic. Maybe your 'normal' kid could take to wearing a hoody and smashing up cars and knifing other rival hoodies and end up in the young offenders unit, but at least they'd be 'norma'l, eh!

 

~ Mel ~

Very well spotted!

This is exactly how I think too! We are all diferent even if we are "normal" . What is important is what you do with your life. This kind of articals are baaaad because they feed seed of fascism in people who are reading it and Daily Mail has a lot of readers!

 

 

[Mumble]

Baddad, I agree with every word of this.

*faints*

 

Pearl!!!!!! :lol:

 

Are you feeling OK? Perhaps you should lie down for a while and get Mr P to call the doctor? It's probably just old age or the chemicals from the hair dye osmoserising into your brain , but not worth taking any chances.

 

[lisac]

The majority of you are talking as if the author is attacking you personally because you have an autistic child.She is'nt. It was an observation and an opinion, nothing wrong with that. I think it was put damn well. I strongly suspect the parents knew she was writing this article. Those of you who dont have the severest autism and severest challenging behaviour affecting your every day life, have no idea, but you think you do.

 

Not every life is a life worth lived, autistic or not, and no, I am not talking about you!

 

[Mumble]

Those of you who dont have the severest autism and severest challenging behaviour affecting your every day life, have no idea, but you think you do.

I find that very insulting. And no, I don't have an autistic child.

 

[bid]

Not every life is a life worth lived, autistic or not

 

That saddens me profoundly

 

Bid

[lbj]

That saddens me profoundly

 

Bid

 

It might be sad that not every life is worth living but I think it's true. I suspect that maybe you were saying that it's sad for people to think this but to me it's realistic more than sad.

 

janine

 

[Mumble]

It might be sad that not every life is worth living but I think it's true.

I'm really completely lost for words. Stunned.

No one has the right to say that someone else's life is not worth living. Especially when worth is defined in terms of being outside of normal.

 

[Suze]

The majority of you are talking as if the author is attacking you personally because you have an autistic child.She is'nt. It was an observation and an opinion, nothing wrong with that. I think it was put damn well. I strongly suspect the parents knew she was writing this article. Those of you who dont have the severest autism and severest challenging behaviour affecting your every day life, have no idea, but you think you do.

 

Not every life is a life worth lived, autistic or not, and no, I am not talking about you!

 

 

...........................................Yikes thats a bit strong...........I disagree with this completely "not every life is a life worth lived"............thankfully that is just your opinion and more importantly your perception.Where would you draw the line on this view, or does it just apply to autistics.......

 

 

 

[baddad]

Those of you who don't have the severest autism and severest challenging behaviour affecting your every day life, have no idea, but you think you do.

 

Hi lisa - I disagree with this. If you are someone coping with the effects of the severest autism and the severest challenging behaviour, you might find that 'challenging' personally, so I'd like to reassure you that it isn't, 'just in case'... (If you're not, then by your own definition you're no better qualified to judge than the rest of us, but I won't pursue that as I disagree with you anyway - i was just making the point...)

 

I do not believe that you have to have direct experience of something to appreciate it's impact. Every human being responds differently to life-events, and what may have a huge impact on one person's emotional state/well being may be 'water off a duck's back' to another. You can't generalise that one persons experience and responses automatically qualifies them to understand the responses of another person undergoing those experiences, because every other factor of those two peoples lives may be completely different.

I also do not agree that 'living' something automatically qualifies someone to manage that event successfully, or that someone who hasn't lived it can't have perspectives and solutions that would be more effective for managing the event than the way it was handled by the person who did undergo it. Sometimes emotional distance can offer a better/more valid perspective on a situation than being in the thick of it, because you can discard many of the personal and psychological imperatives (projection/denial/prejudice/grief/anger/nature/nurture...etc etc the list goes on forever) that get in the way. i've said it before, and I'll say it agaim - Mum's (or dad's or carers) don't automatically know what's best and are actually the least qualified people to make a dispassionate/unbiased judgement.

 

This writer is entitled to her opinion that she thinks her friends have 'ruined' their lives - as the old saying goes, 'opinions are like bumholes - everybody's got one' - but that is her perspective. and it's not invalid because she's 'not lived it' so isn't qualified to make a judgement, it's invalid because even if she did live it her responses and feelings would not be the same as those of her friends.

As far as 'some lives are not worth living', that again imposes an external, third party assessment of something that is purely internal and personal. I don't know what 'happiness' is, but I do know that things which make me happy are not necessarily the things that make other people happy. I also don't know how you put a value on happiness - how many minutes of happiness make up for an hour of unhappiness (?), but I'm guessing, looking at the world and the amount of poop it throws at people, that the exchange rate differs from person to person, but is always high.

 

L&P

 

BD

[chris54]

Not every life is a life worth lived,

 

Which one of us have the right to make that decision?

Edited January 18, 2009 by chris54

[ian stuart-hamilton]

The majority of you are talking as if the author is attacking you personally because you have an autistic child.She is'nt. It was an observation and an opinion, nothing wrong with that. I think it was put damn well.

 

If the point the author was trying to make was that someone with very extreme Autism presents major problems to the their family, and that milder cases of ASD are excluded from the attack, then why didn't the article say so? As it is, the article appears to be saying that all Autism = nothing but a ruined life, as illustrated by an extreme example, and all of this is (to say the least) wide of the mark. And in any case, why 'attack' Autism in this way? As far as I'm aware, nobody has been saying Autism is all things wonderful to provoke this sort of article. .

 

 

 

[lbj]

Legally, only mothers of foetuses under 23 weeks gestation have any final say over such matters. Personally, I'd like to have the same say over the end of my own life but I recognise the validity of the arguments against enshrining any such right in law. I'm not undeplaying the fact that this is a legal and moral minefield - all I'm saying is that in some cases, life is not the ultimate good.

 

janine

[Mumble]

Personally, I'd like to have the same say over the end of my own life

But the fundamental difference there is that you are talking about your own life, not the life of others.

[lbj]

That is true but, as I mentioned women do already have control over the life and death of their (potential) children - whether you believe that's right or wrong, it's the law. I think the key to ensuring that there is no attempt to "breed out" autism lies in education (about what ASD really means, right across the spectrum) and far far better support services for those who need them. A Luddite approach to genetic research won't solve anything.

 

janine

[Mumble]

That is true but, as I mentioned women do already have control over the life and death of their (potential) children - whether you believe that's right or wrong, it's the law. I think the key to ensuring that there is no attempt to "breed out" autism lies in education (about what ASD really means, right across the spectrum) and far far better support services for those who need them. A Luddite approach to genetic research won't solve anything.

 

janine

I may be autistic, but I still have a brain and know when I am being insulted. I do not have a Luddite approach - I am not scared of, fearful about, or standing in the way of technological change. The issue here is not about genetic screening (see genetic screening thread for that interesting discussion), it is (or rather has become) whether an autistic life is one worth living and who (if anyone) has the right to make that decision. Making the decision that your own life is/could become unbearable and deciding to end it (through, for instance, an advanced directive) is very different from making a judgement about another person's quality of life. Just because an individual makes things harder for others or doesn't fit what was hoped for/expected doesn't mean that the individual's life is, in itself, of some lower quality.

 

[bid]

It might be sad that not every life is worth living but I think it's true. I suspect that maybe you were saying that it's sad for people to think this but to me it's realistic more than sad.

 

janine

 

Professionally I care for children with the most severe and complex needs, both medically and developmentally. I also helped to care for my dad when he was suffering and then died from dementia.

 

I have always had the strongest belief in the intrinsic value and importance of every life, and experience that daily in my work.

 

Bid

Edited January 18, 2009 by bid