13 year old DS out of control

[joybed]

Hi I really don,t know where to start but some of you will have read my other posts and have given excellent advice. Marcus is at present being flexi schooled due to difficulties with coping at his local mainstream secondary. We want him to go to a special school but LEA won,t fund we are in negotiation. Currently he is attending school 3 days a week and home 2 days. To begin with this this went well I was very chilled about the schooling and concentrated on the PE aspect which he does none of at school so we went to the allotment and swimming and did some things on the internet in between times. It has been very difficult as i work and Marcus has been falling behind at school as he is missing large chunks of lessons particularly English and Maths. He is reluctant to sit down and do any formal type school work at all which I am not really worried about as he is still attending school. We had his review at school on Friday and due to the above reasons and a few others it was decided he would go back to school full time with full time support. Marcus hasn,t been told this and will not be happy, he says he is never back full time. Ever since Friday his reluctance to do any work at all has got worse. The weather has stopped us going out as much and today his brother is off school ill so not able to leave the house. I think he has a feeling he is going back to school full time and is rebelling. We have had meltdowns every night before school and his behaviour has been far worse than usual. He doesn,t get on well with his stepfather and has never accepted that he is now part of his life although DH doesn,t always deal with matters in the best way Marcus appears to deliberatley push him to the limit and This has resulted in them either not speeking or having a major screaming match. I appreciate DH is the adult but I can also appreciate he is in a very difficult situation also. M also resents having siblings around as for the 8 years prior to them arriving he had my undevided attention. My mother also compounds the problems she doesn,t like my DH (the feeling is mutual) and if Marcus and Miles have an issue he immediately telephones his nanna who threatens me with social services on the grounds that my husband is mistreating my son. This has led to a situation where DH can,t even disapline DS1 for fear of interference form my mother. She is always trying to get me to leave DH and go home to live, my Mum is a real family person but also a control freak and has told DS1 that I will untimatley do what she says as she controls me (I am 37 YO) She denies saying this of course but it is the kind of thing she says. Her latest thing is that if any problems occur at home Marcus is to tell me in front of her so she can tell who is lying.

Today Marcus woke up (usual day off) DS2 vomiting everywhere and asked where we were going today I explained we couldn,t go anywhere as Piers was ill and attempted to try to get him to do some maths on bytesize which he normally enjoys. He immediately kicked off saying he wouldn,t do any work and would make my life a misery until I took him somewhere, which obviously I can,t do. I tried to reason with him, telling him he needed to do something and that i was concerned he was falling behind, but he wasn,t listening this turned into a 4 hour long meltdown with him throwing things, swearing shouting at his brother and me. DH tried to stay out of it but when I dissolved in tears he stepped in and this made M worse. He started saying that he wouldn,t rest until me and his stepdad were divorced and he didn,t care how many lies he had to tell to get this to happen. He told me he hated me and wanted to live with his Nanna as he has unlimited access to the internet there and can do as he pleases. I tried to explain that it is me who has been doing all the hard work negotiating with school and generally looking after them all but he said he didn,t care and didn,t love me anymore as i am there to ruin his life (I am afraid things became a little emtional). I know he is having a rough time at the moment and can see his anxiety but I am fed up of being treated as a punch bag sometimes literally and being told i don,t need to take this. On the other hand he is all sweetness and lite at his Nannas and in front of others and no one believes the behaviours we deal with on a daily basis. He is destructive, has scratched his bedroom window with a chrystal, he has screwed a hole in the bannister hit the bannister with a metal pole until it is all dented, smashed things, and his latest exploit is to pass urine down the wall in the middle of the night because he cant be bothered to get out of bed. I am sure he is depressed, self harms and is under the care of CAMHS. I love him so much but i am becoming increasingly concerned about the effect of all this on my other 2 children as they are so little and they live in fear of there brother and his moods. For the first time ever today when he was threatening me with living at his Nannas I told him to go and said he would find it is no better there (this will all be reported to his Nanna when he sees her tonight). Of course i don,t want this as I am sure my parents won,t cope when they find out how bad his behaviour can be and also i am conerned DH won,t have him back if he goes but i am being torn in 3 ways and don,t know what to do any more.

I feel such a failure and as if all this is my fault but it doesn,t matter what tactic i use he is still out of control and I am seriously concerned for the future as he is very dependent on us or anyone who can provide for his needs and has no inpendent living skills at all. He is becoming increasingly isolated, refuses to eat with the family, come on holiday with us and is now talking about leaving us all together I am losing my boy and don,t know what to do about it. He is very selfish (yes I know he has ASD) but if his needs are not met immediately he starts screaming, self harming and hurling abuse at us. After the event he says he is sorry but obviously isn,t and continues to argue his poiunt or just goes straight into another meltdown, I can,t live like this anymore and spend a lot of time in tears. My marriage is falling apart, my daugher has no self confidence and looks terrified a lot of the time and my son is being assessed also DH thinks he is copying Marcus behaviour. I feel so alone despite seeeking help from everyone I can think of and feel physically exhausted all the time. I have had a cough since new year and feel sure my ill health is due to stress and not enough sleep. Work is my only sanctuary but even that has become a chore to get myself there. Sorry for the long moan but I am at my wits end and thought you might understand and may even be able to offer some advice or organisations i have not been in touch with. Thankyou for listening.

[av16]

Hi can't offer much in the way of advice but send you <'> <'> <'> . Others will be along to help soon I'm sure.

Keep strong <'>

AV

[bid]

I'll come back later for a proper reply, but just wanted to send some <'> in the mean time

 

Bid <'>

Edited February 13, 2009 by bid

[joanne1]

<'> <'>

 

You are not a failure and it isn't your fault. You need to remember that no matter what.

 

I am probably not the best person to give advice, but it does sound as though your son plays things his way and plays you and your husband against your mum. All for his own advantage most of the time. It sounds as though he is making your family life pretty miserable at the moment.

 

Have you tried talking to your mum and getting her to understand how life at home is for your family? I know sometimes that its easier said than done, but if she had a real insight to what you are all going through, is it possible that she might not team up with your son!! Which in turn would mean that he wouldn't have his nan to tell tales to etc.

 

There are other people living in your house who are equally as important as your son,and it is important that your family feel as important.

 

I understand that your son has his needs and problems, totally, but you all have needs and feelings too. I understand that life may be difficult for him and he gets angry etc. But it does sound as though he knows what he is doing to you and your husband.

 

I do hope you get some good advice and I am sure you will.

 

Keep your chin up!

 

Joanne

[mom]

will also come back later for a proper reply but wanted to send you a massive hug... you will get through it I did!

 

 

Love and hugs!

Sharonx

[lbj]

I'm a best wishes job! No suggestions but I'm thinking of you and your situation and I hope that all of you come through ok.

 

janine

[mom]

 

If he is not going to work at home he must go to school, my eldest son now almost 16(adhd) played the same game a few years ago, we almost were divorced over the head of it, he had a sympathtic nanny to and played one of the other, every daily task was a struggle with him responsding with all sorts of negative behaviour, my husband is his father but I was in the same scenario as yourself, until one day after about 14 bad days on the troot when confronting his behaviour for the 3rd time in a period of days he started screaming and banging his head of the wall, I was an emotional wreck and broke down screaming at him that his behaviour (wall banging) would not distract me from the current issues and that his behaviour would not be accepted and I let him know he was playing his adhd card to get his own way, I couldnt cope so we packed him of to his beloved nanny after 4 days she sent him back, we sat down and talked and over a period of 6 months we were maybe to firm letting him away with nothing and only rewarding good behaviour! my husband and I agreed on one thing only no matter how we dealt with any issues we agreed on them in front of him no matter how hard it was and discussed our differences later! thus he lost his play one against the other card! After 6 months we did see results and his behaviours are not quiet extreme he also attends anger management and counselling, though he is still not an angel, the other day he told me he was going to school to tell his counsellor exactly what I was like ( didnt want to go to school) I turned it on him and said i hope you have a long session to fit in all the good bits... when asked that evening how did the counselling session go he answered " oh didn't have any just said that to get the day of", so dont take to heart no matter how hard the negative things he is saying I'm sure he doesnt mean them! Are you getting any professional help on this matter, I hope you can get it all worked out soon, thinking of you and you're familyxxx

 

 

[mom]

Oh forgot ( in a hurry work @5) you need to have a talk with you're mother as this is causing massive problems and she has to be seen to support you and you're husband even if that is not how she feels!

 

 

[bid]

Back again

 

The first thing I would do is to sit down with your DH and write down a very, very clear and concrete plan of action. You are the adults and the parents, this is your family and home, and you both need to take back this control. This means very firm and clear boundaries for your DS, with immediate consequences for his negative behaviours. I think from what you have posted that your DS probably has a very good understanding of what he is doing

 

The next thing I would do, and I hope I don't offend, is to stop contact with your mum, at least until you have re-established control of your family. That might sound harsh, but from what you say it sounds as though she is actively trying to split your family up I would ask myself what possible benefit anyone is gaining from her involvement at the moment

 

I have more personal experience with behavioural therapy for younger children, so I'm not sure how much is applicable to an older child. One thing I would say is that both you and DH must present a united front, keep your languge very simple when talking to your DS and try and use the same simple phrases consistently. 'No hitting' is better than a complicated sentence of 'Stop that, you know you musn't hit, etc'.

 

As for things like the urinating up the wall. I would keep all reaction to a minimum, but I would make him clean up any mess like that himself (word of wisdom: don't hand him the anti-bac spray unlesss you want some in the face, as happened to me at work!)...spray the cleaning cloth, then give it to him to wipe up his mess. Any destructive behaviour like this he should be expected to clear up himself, while keeping your reaction as neutral as possible...'slightly 'bored' is always good if you can manage it!

 

Last of all, unfortunately things will get worse before they get better. Your DS will kick massively against firmer boundaries, but you have to plod on and not give in...you will see results, but it does take a lot of hard work

 

Good luck <'>

 

Bid

 

 

[joanne1]

I agree with bid. I think you need to put your mum in her place or lose some contact for a while. I didn't want to say in my earlier post as I didn't want to offend, but I don't think she is helping your situation. More like causing it with your son.

 

It must be very hard for you at the moment, we all have our troubles with our kids and alot with temper problems, but we have no choice than to deal with it.

 

But you have to think of everyone in the family. It sounds as though everyone is miserable at the hands of your sons behaviour towards you all. You and DH have to be united and strong together, so yes, do sit with DH and work out a plan. Your son may think at the minute that he is winning, because what he is doing is having an impact, from what you say in your post. So if you are a united front with some boundries etc, he may begin to realise that he isn't going to ruin it for you.

 

I know it is hard and emotional but you can do it!!!

Thinking of you

 

Joanne

[JsMum]

 

Hi Joybed, I am soo sorry that you are going throw soo much stress, and its a lot, before Bids reply I was going to suggest that you pack marcus off to his nannas and make them live together for 6 months with no option of returning him, then she might understand, however, After reading Bids, I actually think it is best to reunite as a family between you, your husband and Marcus, and do the action plan and maybe look at a contract for Marcus to sign, I will not cause damage to our home, I will not hurt my family, ect...

 

You need a list of what he can do if he gets frustrated and anxious though too, to ballance it out.

 

The urinating is a very big sign of marking teritory and he is expressing great anger and distress, its very powerful and agree he needs to be responsible of cleaning it up.

 

Councilling is maybe something to look into, relate may offer family, father/son support.

 

Activities that reunite and bond Marcus so fishing, a trip out, just him and your Husband.

 

What stands out though is he is very angry, very anxious and very scared, if it happens where you split up with your husband I think underneath he will be very sad, he is hurting already, but as much as he says he doesnt want a dad, I think its very clear he is actually asking for someone to take control and help him, if he didnt want that, he wouldnt spend 4hrs shouting and arguing, he would just walk out, and not have the bother of shouting, he wants your attention, litrately he is screaming help.

 

Youngminds, Contact a family, Relate are the website I would urge you to look into, also When I was in crisis with Js behaviour I paid to have urgent behaviour management with a clinincal psychologist so look into private therapies too if you can afford it.

 

I think its a good sign that the school want to provide full time support, though I understand Marcus is very anxious of this, but its a positive sign the school want to to support him.

 

I want to give you my support and some hugs, its soo hard going throw this, its extream behaviour and reactions and undaughtably stressful, your doing your best, its not your fault, You need to get some urgent behaviour programme in place and support each other to strengthen the family unit.

 

You can do it, as your already doing it, though it may seem like its falling apart, it isnt yet, so keep chuggering away, I really do hope there is a sign of reliefe soon, I will be thinking of you.

 

JsMum

<'>

 

 

[JsMum]

 

 

PS also if Nanna is to have a break from the family it needs to explained to her and that no contact made at all for a short period, nothing, phone calls, contact ect.... so Marcus doesnt run to her when the boundaries get tuff.

 

A complete break from Nanna would be best.

 

JsMum

 

[bid]

What stands out though is he is very angry, very anxious and very scared, if it happens where you split up with your husband I think underneath he will be very sad, he is hurting already, but as much as he says he doesnt want a dad, I think its very clear he is actually asking for someone to take control and help him, if he didnt want that, he wouldnt spend 4hrs shouting and arguing, he would just walk out, and not have the bother of shouting, he wants your attention, litrately he is screaming help.

 

Youngminds, Contact a family, Relate are the website I would urge you to look into, also When I was in crisis with Js behaviour I paid to have urgent behaviour management with a clinincal psychologist so look into private therapies too if you can afford it.

 

I think this is a very, very good point, plus very useful links.

 

Bid <'>

[joybed]

Hi all i agree with you about the complete break from my mum as she has in the past caused so much heartache. she stopped talking to me for 3 years when i moved in with my DH because i had moved to village 19 miles away and taken her grandson and she had lost control over both myself and her grandson. Since we have made up (and i might add this is only because of the twins she can,t stand to not see her grandchildren) I have been stronger and not allowed her to interfere as much as previously but she does still interfere mainly with Marcus. However at the moment i don,t think i am strong enough or brave enough to cut ties with her, the last time was horrible and i lost nearly all my family as well as her and almost had a breakdown not good times don,t want to go back there, (imagine being at your Nannas funeral and nobody acknowledging you are there that kind of thing hurts). Marcus is there now and to be honest i am glad of the break although as i was leaving i asked him to think about how he had behaved today and could he change anything so we don,t fight when he comes home but he replied i don,t want to come home, I cried all the way home. My Mum told him off but i can,t help but think she is happy as she has now won. My Mum and DAd think the sun shines out of his derrier and he can do no wrong at all and vice versa. My sister is a little more supportive and we had a long chat tonight. She has been through the same thing with my Mum she openly criticises her eldest daughter who incidently is very much like me and showers gifts on her youngest. Happy families I don,t think so. I wish I could afford that little farm house in Wales. Thanks for your help and advice, willl let you know how it goes.

[JsMum]

 

 

I understand you needed a break and he has gone to nannas, but having a child for a couple of days is nice, but having a child with such behaviours you have described in your post 24-7 is totally different, I bet if he did go and live there, it would take about a month and she would experience the same.

 

when I ment a complete break the break was between marcus and nanna, not you and your mum.

 

I personally dont think your mum is been fair with her role here either, she is almost coaxing marcus into behaving the way he is towards you, from an outsider I think she could quite possibly be using marcus, sorry if that sound harsh.

 

The answer he gave of he didnt want to come home must of definately hurt you, but is he also been manipulative here, does he really not want to come home, I personally dont think that is true, personally Id been inclined to let him live at his nannas if thats the case, but I have a feeling soon as boundaries and rules are layed he would soon be calling you again.

 

Have you ever come across a book called TOXIC PARENTS I absaloutly recommend it.

 

JsMum

 

[jb1964]

Hi Joybed,

 

Sorry you're having such a hard time of it - although I hate to say it but at 13 you have puberty and all the teenage stuff that goes with it on top - this behaviour is unlikely to stop overnight - especially if his Nanna is not united with you and your husband.

 

As for being cut off from your family previously - obviously you don't want to get to that situation again because you say you don't feel strong enough but the other side of all this is that the constant strain for you as a family because of her interference is massive and that includes the strain on you and your hubbie and your other children which is weakening you all the time. You need to all be on the same side for your sons sake otherwise this is never going to stop.

 

My daughter is 15 and we have struggled - but when we stick together it's easier. That doesn't stop me breaking my heart when I'm alone - because either my hubbie or myself has said or done something that the other one disagrees with or my daughter has said something that rips you apart or physically caused you pain and feels no remorse - biting your tongue is hard when you see someone you love hurting inside or they hurt you deeply - but that is something your mother should be doing.

 

I don't know what your son is like but my daughter likes control - that includes not just her having rules and regulations that she abides by, but she likes others to be in control also - that she knows she feels safe and secure because we're in control of situations - but when your son sees you all against each other - it will panic him he doesn't know what to do and at the moment it appears he's going to his Nanna because she seems to be the person most in control of any situation.

 

Is there anyway you can all sit down and talk? - if that isn't possible because she won't listen then you really need to decide how much support is she actually giving you.

 

Hope you find a way out of this soon, for all your sakes.

Take care,

Jb

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Esty]

Sorry to hear this - I know from experience how they can be when the problem is school. My son was very violent in response to school pressure and it was this that first led us to CAMHS, where we were told that the violence is a form of panic attack. Imagine your worst fear and waking up every day knowing you have to face it all day - that's what happens to school phobics. My son, too, could hold it together mostly in front of others but had meltdowns at home. I got to a position where I thought actually, this child has to deal with this for the rest of his life. He was medically exempted from school and has not been back until last week - he was off since September and now just goes in for a couple of hours a couple of times a week. He goes to a unit in his mainstream school and can just work on the computer BUT it has taken us months to get to this point where he can go in without fuss. In all the time he was medically exempted from school he didn't have a single meltdown, although obviously his day to day difficulties were still there. We found with R that most of his difficult behaviour could be sorted with strictly enforced rewards/ sanctions but not school. You could offer him a hundred pounds to go in ( I actually did one day, out of desperation to see if it made a difference. it didn't, which was good cos I didn't have the money haha). i know it's really hard as it feesl they are controlling everything but that constant pressure is no good for anyone. I know what it's like - we've had ed. welfare breathing down our necks for 2 and half years but as I said to one of them -'your job is to get bums on seats - mine is to ensure this child has strategies for his whole life'. Education can come later and at his own pace. He has to learn to deal with life first. I try to understand my son by imagining what it would be like to be forced to go to school in a foreign country where all the language and cultural expectations were completely new - how exhausted would you be by the end of the day? I think this is what its like for ASD kids - and afetr a couple of hours of translating and thinking, they are exhausted so the next little thing (yep, who had the two hour meltdown over eating dinner, brushing teeth, putting clean clothes on?) sends them over the edge.

Keep a diary of his behaviour so you can defend yourself to social services should it come to that. make it clear to your Mum that if she doesn't support you, you will cut contact. If you are involved with CAMHS, take her to his appointments, let her ask questions, they'll soon let her know what helps and what doesn't. Give her books to read etc. My Mum used to defend my son as she just didn't want to accept that her unofficial favourite grandson had these problems - if they pretend it's not happening, or blame someone else eg you, then they don't have to acknowledge that their grandchild is on the spectrum. It was only when she couldn't talk him around anymore and he'd directed his behaviour towards her that she realised it wasn't just us not able to cope with a difficult child - we had a child with a condition that needed outside support. Now she knows and is 100% supportive.

We do understand where you are coming from <'>

 

[smiley1590]

i am lucky really my nan tries her upmost to understand my AS she thinks it behavioural disorder! my mum tries to inform her of information about how it can affect me and she tries take that in! she so proud of my achievements she always telling me how proud she is of me! don't think she understands MH probs as well together with AS! but better than nothing AS wasn't a diagnosis made in her generation so for her to go that far to try i think is fantastic! and brilliant! she can't understand self-harm,depression anxiety why i do get so bad! but find it hard to explain and put into words! i try and explain best i can into words but not easy with late generation!

 

my other nan doesn't know i have AS as she 98 years old and wouldn't get the term AS or MH probs anyways! so i don't bother but thinks she knows i get worked up and stressed through and give me wise words like "stop worrying you'll end up in hospital" was shocked at how she knew! blew me away! i think she knows im different ot others! they both know i try my best /hardest at everything i do!effort is always put there determination and ambition!

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Gosh, things do sound really difficult for you. I can relate to feeling exhausted all the time and needing to work because it's a place of sanctuary.

 

First thing that strikes me is your mother. My son (7/AS) deliberately tries to play me off against my husband resulting in arguments (which shouldn't happen in front of R - difficult though). My guess is that your son is doing something similar with you, hubby and your mother to try and gain the upper hand in some way. Your mum threatening SS isn't helping. Is it possible that you could speak with her and convey the importance of presenting a united front? You and your husband need to be in charge without threats from your mum. If your mum won't accept this, is it possible that the table could be turned on her - if she continues inadverently (or otherwise) to make threats, then for the good of your son (and you and hubby) she should not be part of your lives. It's only by presenting unity that your son will hopefully begin to accept discipline, boundaries, etc. resulting in him feeling more comfortable (rules and boundaries are good for kids - they need them).

 

Have you tried young minds?

http://www.youngminds.org.uk/

 

They can even arrange for a professional to phone you. They can only offer general advice based upon what you tell them. I found them to be very helpful.

 

Best wishes.

 

Caroline.