In the middle of the maelstrom. HELP!

[Mum of 3]

Just need to get all this down, as I feel stuck in the 7th circle of Hell here, and I really don't know what to do.

It's the holidays again, and G just can't cope.

He's spent the whole weekend telling us it's a school day and why don't we take him to school.

Today we should have had an appt with the paediatritian, but that got cancelled last thursday (the paed has retired-how come they could only give me 4 day's notice?), so I've now got DS on his own, and the other 2 at Nursery (already booked and paid for so we could go to the appt-another 60 quid wasted!).

Anyway, I thought it would be nice to spend some quality time together, you know, go to the park, bake some buns...

He started this morning by pushing his brother out of bed, then hitting him on the head.

I managed to bring him down from the resulting tantrum (he always tantrums after he's done something to hurt someone), and DH got the other 2 off to nursery. G vascillated between being absorbed in playing pirates, and shouting at me, with no warning about when he would start or stop. I managed to persuade him to have breakfast, then tried to do a calendar for him, so he knows what will be happening in the holidays, thinking this might be what's up. He shouted at me that he didn't want a stupid smelly calendar, wasn't going to write or draw or colour anything. So I did it, being all soothing and saying he didn't have to do anything. He calmed down after a while of looking at his Playmobil catalogue (fave obsession), so I suggested we could go and get ready to go out.

Managed to get his hands and face washed, but he ran off when it came to brushing his teeth. He the sat on the stairs looking at a Big Cook Little Cook book, singing 'Big Cook, Poopy Mummy... Mummy Can't Cook'... 'Mummy is Poopy at Cooking'... and other niceties. (Actually, I'm a pretty good cook!...).

At this point, I decided I'd hung around enough and gave up. I went to make the beds and get on with some phone calls.

he's followed me round the house screaming at me that he's sorry, he's not sorry, he wouldn't care if I died, shouting at me over and over again to 'talk to me!', then spitting at me when I talked. He's threatened to break the banisters (nearly did it, too-this house is so badly built the stairs'll fall down if you look at them funny!).

I know I'm making jokes but I really don't know how much more of this I can stand. He's always much worse when it's just me and him, so no-one else knows how bad it is. Even just reading what I've written it sounds like nothing, but when he's in the grip of it it's really intense, and there just seems no escape from it. It's just having all this anger directed at me with such a force. I really don't know where it comes from or what to do to deflect it.

Everyone I speak to-other mum's, etc, say 'oh, yes, mine did/does that..he'll grow out of it...they all do that at this age...', but they don't seem to realise that I'm costantly walking on eggshells, waiting for the next outburst.

He's now come downstairs all contrite, dressed and ready to go. I told him he's not going out yet, as I'm busy now (I don't want him to think he can do all this and have the day just continue as if it never happened). Instead of the outburst, he's got himself some crayons, and made a birthday card for his cousin!!!! He's written in it and everything-completely unheard of!

So, in the course of writing this message, we've gone from red in the face screaming, uncontrollable anger and aggression to absolute model child, sitting and drawing calmly and peacably.

I've got no idea what happened to affect any of these moods, good or bad, so how can I change things when it happens???

All and any insights gratefully recieved!!!

[bikemad]

<'> Dont know what to suggest as my lad is like a wild animal due to it being holidays and not so much routine but didnt want to read n run.

[Mum of 3]

Thanks Bikemad. He had another couple of strops before I eventually put him to bed early. He was asleep in minutes, then came down later, very sorry. When his dad took him back up and asked him if he wanted a story tape, G said no, because he'd been so naughty he didn't deserve one .

This morning, he was much calmer and said how sorry he is, but can't talk about why he does it. He's at holiday club today as I'm working, and wanted to go in his uniform this morning

[Enid]

Its not easy is it?, sometimes when we are in the middle of it it seems like it will go on for ever, the only advice I have is day at a time, sometimes hour or minute at a time!!! dont think too far ahead, its too scary! and this forum, use it to off load and moan, even if we have no answers, at least we all understand, it kept me sane last year when I went through a terrible time with my lad, this time last year I was in despair, a year later we have just been on a holiday to a well know campsite, really busy, he was wonderful, but what kept me sane through the worst of it was others on this site, especially those who had boys of a similar age, and hearing that they had been through it and survived really helped, as I say, no answers just sympathy and support, keep strong, day at a time. Enid

[lisac]

Mumof3, ive no idea either. My son is almost 22 and like this, and after many observations by many professionals no one is any the wiser, nothing at all happens to affect any of these moods, all we know it is something within, if any one has any insight i would be interested to hear.

[NickyB]

Thanks Bikemad. He had another couple of strops before I eventually put him to bed early. He was asleep in minutes, then came down later, very sorry. When his dad took him back up and asked him if he wanted a story tape, G said no, because he'd been so naughty he didn't deserve one .

This morning, he was much calmer and said how sorry he is, but can't talk about why he does it. He's at holiday club today as I'm working, and wanted to go in his uniform this morning

 

Hi Mum of 3

 

I'd certainly see it as a positive that he understands what he's done is 'naughty' My DS hits and kicks when he has a tantrum, but if I ask him about it once he's calmed down, he says that hitting and kicking are good

I can't really help with how to understand the reasons behind what he does and how to help him deal with it - I'd love to find the answer to that one myself.

 

Take care and I hope things calm down for the rest of the hols

 

 

[Mum of 3]

My mum's convinced it's a chemical inbalance, which is why it just seems to 'get him' for no reason. Does anyone else think this? He's certainly alot worse before food, and much better after food, so long as it's the right sort of food, ie. loads of carbs, nothing heavily processed and nothing too sweet.

 

My ancient great aunt used to be a headteacher at a rough primary school years ago, and she says some of the boys used to behave really badly, have low attention spans, etc (obviously, this was in the days when children who were like that would just have it camned out of them at most schools!). She used to put potatoes in the school ovens when she arrived in the morning, and give the 'naughty' boys baked potatoes at playtime. She reckons they needed the 'starch' to this calm them down, and they behaved and learnt much better as a result. Do you think she was on to something?

[Enid]

Perhaps she is, my DS`s worst time used to be about 6pm, someone suggested giving him a drink and a banana at 5.30, it seemed to work really well, but like anything not for long! perhaps I should have given him a spud instead! worth a try though. <'> Enid

[lisac]

mumof3, yes your mum could be right, it could be a chemical inbalance, it is an inbalance of something thats for sure. It might be also to do with their thought processing. Ive just been watching my son and hes gone from happy to sad and back again in seconds ( he then passed wind, lovely!), he is sensitive to everything, so sometimes it could be a physical discomfort somewhere too. Ive been trying to figure all this out for 22 years, i sometimes feel like a detective, always looking for clues but never solving the mystery.

[Mum of 3]

i sometimes feel like a detective, always looking for clues but never solving the mystery.

 

I know just what you mean. I look for 'reasons' everywhere... 'Do you think he chucked that tin of beans at me because his socks weren't pulled up high enough?'....

 

I don't really want to dwell on the breaking wind bit, but I've also noticed that G's usually much calmer and more settled when he's been to the loo (for a 'sit down' IYKWIM!!!). In fact, I have been known to suggest he does just that if he looks like he's about to lose it! The trick is, finding the right thing at the right time, and in time!

 

I'd love to see the 'spuds...a new treatment for AS?' headlines , though

[Sally44]

Maybe it is something to do with the transitions as well.

I do agree with the food thing though, little well balanced snacks often stop the highs and lows of blood sugar dips.

But my son can have good days, and then bad days when everything I ask him to do just causes the biggest strop and verbal abuse ever. Or, he tries to be good and not do that by trying to leave the house - he somehow thinks that is better than saying those bad words or doing that bad behaviour. Because afterwards he is so remorseful and upset with himself. But I prefer he does that than escape from the house with a rucksack on his back (that was his final solution!)

 

Now he is 8 I send him upstairs to his room to calm down if he begins to get too verbal. And when he starts to blame me, or the family or anyone else I tell him straight back that he has been wrong or naughty because of X,Y and Z. He doesn't like it, but I tell him how it is. And he does get really upset with himself. He's trying to earn a trip to Alton Towers, and is just hanging on by the skin of his teeth. Yesterday he just walked into a duck pond and was wet up to his waist. I still have no idea why! Then he threw a strop because he thought he'd lost the Alton Towers trip. What drove him to do it?? I'd love to spend a day in his mind.

 

But this holiday we have already had a couple of instances that just make me think i'm going to have to have some kind of camera watching him 24/7. Our neighbours complained yesterday (and we don't get on at all), that 'someone' has been throwing screws out of the bedroom window onto his lawn and they will break his lawnmower. Well, my husband got all defensive and denied any knowledge of anything - only to find DS had been throwing a bucketful of nails out of his bedroom window one by one onto the neighbours lawn all morning!

He just does stuff without thinking of the consequences. Infact his behaviour reminds me of how my daughter was aged 3+, when you couldn't leave them for a minute without them being up to something (drawing on walls etc). Well he appears to be at that stage now he is 8.

[frogslegs]

My son has odd days when everything goes wrong, very very clumsy, grumpy, can't spell anything... Then something major will happen (last time he broke the CD player in the car on purpose, also dismantled my camera, wrecked my favourite rose bush....), then big meltdown... All this for no reason. I realise I must not 'corner' him, or leave him with no way out because that is when things go seriously wrong and things like that are payback.

He is now 10 and although meltdowns are less frequent, now that adolescence is beginning to kick in they are really bad and on Sunday I thought he was going to hit me (he is nearly as tall as I am and broad shoulders). He was so angry that his body was hard as wood and the look of hatred in his eyes!

He has homework to do every holiday and it has to be done this week. This is what the big deal is about because I have taken stuff away from him which will be given back when the work is completed properly (you see what I mean by cornered). When he is like that he locks himself into silent anger, then cuddly baby attitude. Constant fighting at the moment, work done badly (when he can do well) is thrown at my face. At times I feel like giving up (this is what my husband does) but I can't accept to do that.

[Mum of 3]

Because afterwards he is so remorseful and upset with himself. But I prefer he does that than escape from the house with a rucksack on his back (that was his final solution!)

 

Infact his behaviour reminds me of how my daughter was aged 3+, when you couldn't leave them for a minute without them being up to something (drawing on walls etc). Well he appears to be at that stage now he is 8.

 

 

This sounds just like G. Since 'Moody Monday' he's been trying so hard to 'be good', he was so sorry (real sorry, not the usual sort of 'sorry you're not being nice to me' kind of sorry ), that it makes me believe that, when he's caught up in it, he really truly can't help it. Thankfully, Sally44, G doesn't tend to do things that would affect people outside the family, like the nail throwing, or maybe it's just that he can't reach out of the windows yet?... , but walking into the pond up to his waist wouldn't surprise me. G would do it just because he liked the feeling of the water on his legs, then he'd throw a huge strop because his socks were soggy! (he has a thing about wet socks-he used to walk up and down the bath, then come and cry for clean ones, then do it again as soon as he was changed!).

 

We've noticed for years that he just doesn't 'get' consequences-which makes any sort of discipline that would work for NT children useless. I have a 3year old and a 20 month old, G has more in common with the 20 mth old at the moment Hope that doesn't signal trouble ahead!

 

Frogslegs, G has the same sort of pattern of 'silent anger, then cuddly baby attitude', only with him it's more very LOUD anger and aggression, folowed by whining 'I'm sorry, be nice to me' (it's like a mantra, he repeats it over and over), then he'll change to 'why won't you be nice to me?', and then go back into the anger again. This can cycle around for hours some days, then he can go for days without anything! Like you say, though, he does seem to have days were all the symptoms seem to converge, like planets aligning, and that's when we have the major episodes like last Monday. Which brings me back to the chemical theory... Does anyone know if there have been any serious studies into this? also, if it is a chemical innbalance, would eating & drinking, or going to the toilet, really have the effect of changing that imbalance as effectively as it sometimes does in G?

[Mum of 3]

Because afterwards he is so remorseful and upset with himself. But I prefer he does that than escape from the house with a rucksack on his back (that was his final solution!)

 

Infact his behaviour reminds me of how my daughter was aged 3+, when you couldn't leave them for a minute without them being up to something (drawing on walls etc). Well he appears to be at that stage now he is 8.

 

 

This sounds just like G. Since 'Moody Monday' he's been trying so hard to 'be good', he was so sorry (real sorry, not the usual sort of 'sorry you're not being nice to me' kind of sorry ), that it makes me believe that, when he's caught up in it, he really truly can't help it. Thankfully, Sally44, G doesn't tend to do things that would affect people outside the family, like the nail throwing, or maybe it's just that he can't reach out of the windows yet?... , but walking into the pond up to his waist wouldn't surprise me. G would do it just because he liked the feeling of the water on his legs, then he'd throw a huge strop because his socks were soggy! (he has a thing about wet socks-he used to walk up and down the bath, then come and cry for clean ones, then do it again as soon as he was changed!).

 

We've noticed for years that he just doesn't 'get' consequences-which makes any sort of discipline that would work for NT children useless. I have a 3year old and a 20 month old, G has more in common with the 20 mth old at the moment Hope that doesn't signal trouble ahead!

 

Frogslegs, G has the same sort of pattern of 'silent anger, then cuddly baby attitude', only with him it's more very LOUD anger and aggression, folowed by whining 'I'm sorry, be nice to me' (it's like a mantra, he repeats it over and over), then he'll change to 'why won't you be nice to me?', and then go back into the anger again. This can cycle around for hours some days, then he can go for days without anything! Like you say, though, he does seem to have days were all the symptoms seem to converge, like planets aligning, and that's when we have the major episodes like last Monday. Which brings me back to the chemical theory... Does anyone know if there have been any serious studies into this? also, if it is a chemical innbalance, would eating & drinking, or going to the toilet, really have the effect of changing that imbalance as effectively as it sometimes does in G?

[lisac]

I know just what you mean. I look for 'reasons' everywhere... 'Do you think he chucked that tin of beans at me because his socks weren't pulled up high enough?'....

 

Thats excatly it! This is me all the time. We even had a very good psycology team shadowing him for a few weeks, videotaping his every movement to see if they could find any clues. Apparently they discussed my son for days, debating back and forth, and came back with no more than i knew! and this is a very experienced adult team. So he remains an enigma .

 

[Mum of 3]

So good to know we're not alone!

[dapperma]

Walking on egg shells -- everyday is this. My ds (11) can go from sweet to raging for any reason -- and half the time it doesn't make sense. Something caught my eye on this post though in the beginning about carbs. If I allowed him, my ds would live on bread and potatoes. I can remember in preschool (it was a private preschool) and they served lunch family style -- Matt would always go for the breads -- almost like he needed it. This is before a diagnosis at this time -- and they had to limit his intake. And now that I read it above, my ds attitude can take a 360 degree turn after any meal that involves carbs. Tonight is a perfect example. He was getting very frustrated he couldn't complete this challenge on his playstation game and I had to take the game away because his mood was becoming physical. He had his potatoes for dinner with other stuff -- and he is a totally changed boy. Like night and day. I never put the two together but I will be keeping track of it.

 

Matt can also become very apologetic after a tantrum and it is very sincere. I have also heard in the past from him that he is sorry but he 'couldn't control his brain with getting mad'. Has anyone else heard of this before when the child claims he couldn't stop himself?

[Sally44]

That is exactly what my son says 'what is wrong with my brain, why can't I control it, why can't I stop it'. Then he might hit himself in the face or scratch at his face (if it has been a particularly bad one). Or just as it begins he might say 'my brain is going crazy now'.

I did go to a seminar by the NAS and the speaker was explaining how they really don't have the same level of control of emotions as we have. Apparently brain scans have been taken during emotional states and larger areas of the brain are lit up than in typical children/adults. This was explained to us lay people as being the difference between typical people having the equivalent of a shower curtain that can contain the emotion (which is a chemical response) and make it easier to get the situation under control. In those with ASDs there is no shower curtain, so the emotions are just flooding out everywhere in the brain. That means it is harder to control and harder to recover from. And that does appear to be how it is. I am not saying the behaviour is excusable because swearing or getting violent can never be acceptable behaviour. But I try with my son to explain to him that unfortunately that is how it makes him feel, and that what he has to do is go to his bedroom to calm down. So when he does start I tell him 'you need to go to your room to calm down'. I don't send him there as a punishment. I use the bedroom as a timeout place where he can calm down. Of course he might be being abusive all the way up the stairs. But I am hoping that as he gets older that he does start to take this on board for himself. But there are some children that have much greater difficulties with this than my son does. And we haven't hit puberty yet.

But, as mums, I think we should listen to our children and how they explain to us their experience. I think they are really telling us how it is for them. It is the same with sensory issues. A good example is once (when he was much younger) we had to leave the barbers with half a haircut. My son was crying and screaming that the clippers were hurting him, and the barber was getting quite terse and telling him 'I am not hurting you - sit still'. But he was being hurt regardless of what my perception would have been in the same situation. So I just believed him and took him away and never returned there. We found a lady hairdresser who is brilliant. She tells him everything before she does it, and will spray some water on his hand before she sprays it on his head etc. She will let him hold onto his ears. She will stop when he gets over anxious until he is ready to proceed again. This has built some trust between them. He now has no problems going for a haircut.

[Mum of 3]

Whenever I ask G what went on he doesn't know what happened. He got mad with his cousin today at my mum's. I wasn't there (had a blissful morning with my other 2-but that's a whole new thread!), but she told me all about it. When he came home, he said, quite cheerfully, 'I had a tantrum today mummy'. I said 'I know, but what was it about?' He just said 'don't know really' and wandered off.

I think you're absolutely right about listening to our children and working with them. I'm sure this morning's episode would have been prevented if only my mum had thought a little bit about what she was asking him to do, and supported him in doing it. The really annoying thing is, she usually gives him too much support and 1-1. This morning, she had his 2 cousins as well, so 'left them to get on with it'

Sometimes, I can't think what triggered an outburst, and these 'out of no-where' ones always seem to be the worst (of course, because I don't have time to deflect it). G is never able to articulate any ideas about why, though, but then he is only 5, so I don't really think he could be expected to.

G has really long hair, and hates having it brushed, washed or cut. I've found this sensitivity fluctuates with his moods as well.

[Sally44]

My son also has an interest in plumbing, or more specifically in blocking the pipes!

After our long discussion about him earning his reward (trip to the theme park), I found him 5 minutes later in the toilet pushing toilet paper down the plug hole. It took 20 mins using chop sticks to get it all out. His excuse, 'I wasn't thinking'. Too right mate!!

At his previous school he frequently blocked the toilets with paper. He gets absorbed in the repetitive action of putting paper down. I got a warning from the Caretaker that if he had to unblock another toilet he would be very angry. Although I know what they mean, I asked for that in writing please - evidence towards the Statement (we now have). As I was also concerned that he was frequently finding opportunities to leave the classroom for enough time to block the toilets. And also what was the motivation to keep leaving the classroom, he obviously wanted to escape that environment.

[dana]

My mum's convinced it's a chemical inbalance, which is why it just seems to 'get him' for no reason. Does anyone else think this? He's certainly alot worse before food, and much better after food, so long as it's the right sort of food, ie. loads of carbs, nothing heavily processed and nothing too sweet.

 

My ancient great aunt used to be a headteacher at a rough primary school years ago, and she says some of the boys used to behave really badly, have low attention spans, etc (obviously, this was in the days when children who were like that would just have it camned out of them at most schools!). She used to put potatoes in the school ovens when she arrived in the morning, and give the 'naughty' boys baked potatoes at playtime. She reckons they needed the 'starch' to this calm them down, and they behaved and learnt much better as a result. Do you think she was on to something?

Hi,

could be! My cousins live in Sweden and have a son with developmental problems (deffinitelywith traits of ASD) and were told by the doctors there that it is something to do with the way the sugar is processed and the brain (my aunt coudnt be more specific) .I think it would be worth finding out more about it .

 

danaxxx