Angry Meltdowns

[VenusDoom]

Hi,

Wondering if anyone else has experienced this.

My 5 years old Aspie has some huge meltdowns. Today he wanted his Dad to go upstairs and get his clothes for him. And when his Dad said he could do it himself and was just being lazy, my 5yo just lost it and it ended up with a 20 minute screaming match. It is impossible to reason with him when he is like that.

Anyway, he insisted during this meltdown that his dad had been saying things like "I hate you". I was there and know for a fact that his Dad never said that. Its not the first time this has happened. Its like he gets an idea into his head and then thinks it actually happened. No matter what we say he still insists that his Dad said that he hates him. Has anyone else had problems like this?? I just dont know what to do about it.

 

[baddad]

Hi venusdoom

TBH, and IMO you're focussing on the wrong thing slightly. I suspect the 'dad said he hates me' is just another form of the selective hearing all five year old's demonstrate - it's just a variation from the usual not hearing what they don't want to hear to hearing what they do - in this case something that can be used as justification for abusive and aggressive behaviour in response to a perfectly reasonable request. The real issue here (IMO) is why you/your husband are engaging in twenty minute screaming matches instead of imposing firm sanctions after the first minute or so? Your five year old is behaving unreasonably - why try to reason with him? You've said yourself it is impossible when he's like that, so why bother? Sanction him, and if - when he is calm and behaving reasonably - you feel there is room for discussion offer it then, on your terms. It's certainly not going to be easy to get him to adhere to the sanctions and disciplines, but what's difficult when he is five certainly isn't going to get any easier as he gets physucally larger and stronger and has years of reinforcement that aggression and abuse are strategies that work for him.

 

Hope that's helpful

 

L&P

 

BD

[NobbyNobbs]

Hi,

Wondering if anyone else has experienced this.

My 5 years old Aspie has some huge meltdowns. Today he wanted his Dad to go upstairs and get his clothes for him. And when his Dad said he could do it himself and was just being lazy, my 5yo just lost it and it ended up with a 20 minute screaming match. It is impossible to reason with him when he is like that.

Anyway, he insisted during this meltdown that his dad had been saying things like "I hate you". I was there and know for a fact that his Dad never said that. Its not the first time this has happened. Its like he gets an idea into his head and then thinks it actually happened. No matter what we say he still insists that his Dad said that he hates him. Has anyone else had problems like this?? I just dont know what to do about it.

 

firstly i would think your son had a tantrum rather than a meltdown. he lost it because he did not get his own way, rather than because there was too much sensory input etc. its perfectly normal for a 5 year old to behave that way and ASD kids can and do also behave in normal ways. our three year old does the same thing in the same circumstance. we put her on the stairs and ask her to think about whether she wants to get dressed or not, then leave her to it. we wont argue with her because we're the adults. after about 5 minutes we go back and ask if she wants to do whatever she was kicking off about, if she says yes and sorry she can go and do whatever it was, if she says no she stays there and we come back 5 minutes later etc.

 

as to hearing things that weren't said, thats an old tactic. claiming someone said something mean to get themselves out of trouble/their own way is a classic most kids learn when they start school and he might just be trying it out at home. again, our 3 year old has tried that one too, as have most of the other kids we've looked after. some children can absolutely convince themselves that something happened that didn't, its something to do with establishing fantasy/reality and can get confused.

[JsMum]

 

 

What was your son doing when he asked his Dad to go upstairs to get his clothes?

 

Does your son usually get his own clothes from upstairs?

 

How does your son respond to going upstairs alone usually? my son wont even go to the toilet alone upstairs, he grabs my hand and pulls me to go with him, so just wondering if there is any anxietys of going upstairs alone.

 

When your Husband said to your son No your just lazy, how was this communicated, face to face, audio, body language.

 

If you where there and your Husband defo didnt say it, then you can be reasured he didnt, something defo got crossed wired for your son, maybe it is a deeper level feeling that your son may hold about his Dad and firmly believes hid Dad does hates him, and he now verbalises this in his head when he gets angry, if this is this case then anger, feelings and emotions will need further support.

 

There is also the thought that maybe there could well be an underlying mood disorder going on and if he is hearing voices will need sharing, has he accused anyone else of saying something, children at school, ect.... when there is evidence they defo have not.

 

If this is regularly happening then keep a detailed diary and take note of times and date and share if you have further concerns in the future.

 

JsMum

 

[NickyB]

Hi,

Wondering if anyone else has experienced this.

My 5 years old Aspie has some huge meltdowns. Today he wanted his Dad to go upstairs and get his clothes for him. And when his Dad said he could do it himself and was just being lazy, my 5yo just lost it and it ended up with a 20 minute screaming match. It is impossible to reason with him when he is like that.

Anyway, he insisted during this meltdown that his dad had been saying things like "I hate you". I was there and know for a fact that his Dad never said that. Its not the first time this has happened. Its like he gets an idea into his head and then thinks it actually happened. No matter what we say he still insists that his Dad said that he hates him. Has anyone else had problems like this?? I just dont know what to do about it.

 

Hi VenusDoom

 

We have had similar problems with our DS - he tends to hit and kick and scream if things don't go his way. I would agree with some of what's already been said - it's not that unusual for a 5 year old to react in this way. We used to get into long, drawn-out conflicts with him. Then we decided we would stop trying to reason and with him, as he will insist that black is white if it suits his point of view. If he starts screaming, hitting or kicking, he goes to sit on the stairs for a couple of minutes. We don't get into conversations about what's been said, he just needs to know that what he's doing is not acceptable. When we started doing this it took me 20 minutes to get him to sit on the stairs, after a huge amount of screaming, but I wasn't going to give in. The next time it took 5 minutes, and now he usually sits down straight away. It doesn't always work but things are a lot better than they were.

Of course, it all depends on what you feel is behind it - is it to do with his AS or is it just him being a 5 year old, or a bit of both. Personally, I find that one of the hardest things to work out.

 

Hope that helps in some way Nicky

[Kazzen161]

Did he really understand what his Dad said? "You can do it..." he may have felt he could not for some reason (didn't know where they were? half way through a game?), or that he could, but would rather his Dad did it. Calling him lazy and his Dad's tone of voice - he may have interpreted that as "he hates me" - ie: you are not being nice - you are not helping me.

 

It is best to keep language simple "XXX, it is time to go and get dressed" (a visual timetable is even better), and a simple "No. It is time to go and get dressed". Reasoning with him will just overload him further.

 

It is important that you acknowledge his perception of events, and respond with consideration of them (even if his perceptions are not accurate). They are his perceptions and are therefore real for him, and they are what are driving his behaviour.

[baddad]

It is important that you acknowledge his perception of events, and respond with consideration of them (even if his perceptions are not accurate). They are his perceptions and are therefore real for him, and they are what are driving his behaviour.

 

Sorry, but that's an absolutely huge assumption to make based on what the OP said. Isn't it far more likely that he is just behaving, as a five year old, like any other five year old, and that it is his completely natural desire to control/manipulate his environment that is 'driving' his behaviour? Take assumptions about the nature of autism out of the equation and things are much more straight forward. Which is certainly going to be far easier for most autistic children to understand, and far easier for parents to reinforce...

 

L&P

 

BD

[VenusDoom]

Wow, so much information to take in. I really just wanted to know if anyone elses child really thought they heard things that hadnt been said. Wasnt quite expecting a total analysis of my parenting skills.

 

Sometimes it is very hard to tell the difference between what is AS related, and what is just bad behaviour. However, our son is generally very well behaved. Exceptionally so. He has some anxiety problems and goes into panic attacks that involve sweating, hyperventilating, stomach pains, and such like.

 

The time out on the stairs technique does not work for our son. WHen he is genuinely just mesbehaving we are able to deal with it well enough and he always apologises. But sometimes he has these huge spats where he gets hysterical about something, and its hard to completely understand where its coming from. When I said it turned into a 20 minute screaming match, I didnt mean that his Dad was screaming back at him. His Dad has more trouble dealing with things than me. They do seem to wind each other up. At the time I Was in the bath so could hear it but was unable to physically intervene. But the screaming was coming from our son who seemed more upset that his Dad had apparently said he hated him than anything else.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to know if anyone else had a child who thought they heard things that didnt happen, or whether he might just (like someone already said) felt that his Dad hated him and verbalised it in his head himself.

 

Sitting still on the stairs amounts to torture for our son. Our OT suggested that he bounce on the trampoline when he feels stressed. She said that he needed the movement to get his mind off of things. Sitting in one spot on the stairs, as Super Nanny suggests does work for our other children, but with L it just makes him more anxious and panicky.

 

Im quite willing to admit that I have no idea what Im doing half the time with L. His diagnosis is only new and we haven't yet received much help. However, I have been a parent to 4 children for 15 years now and am well aware of the difference between my other children and L. I;ve seen many tantrums over the years and have tried every technique going on my other kids. The same things just dont seem to work with L.

[VenusDoom]

I should also mention that he does have regular tantrums like any other 5 year old, at times. Say if he wants pudding but hasnt finished his dinner. Those tantrums are dealt with as a tantrum. These other 'tantrums' are something else. He was watching TV and was asked to go get dressed. Perhaps it was because the request was unplanned, unexpected. I would usually give him a warning so that hes prepared but his Dad hasnt yet got used to that way of doing things. Its very hard to explain in text, and I feel from your responses that I didnt do a very good job at it the first time.

[lisac]

VenusDoom, I wouldn't take too much notice of baddad. He/she frequently implies that it is the child behaving NT and its the parents fault for thinking/responding to the autism, hence, undermining the child and the parenting skills of some people, despite them having both NT and ASD children, then clears off when the debate gets heated!

Dont doubt yourself, you explained things very well, I hope you find some ideas and answers here, x

[baddad]

VenusDoom, I wouldn't take too much notice of baddad. He/she frequently implies that it is the child behaving NT and its the parents fault for thinking/responding to the autism, hence, undermining the child and the parenting skills of some people, despite them having both NT and ASD children, then clears off when the debate gets heated!

Dont doubt yourself, you explained things very well, I hope you find some ideas and answers here, x

 

Hi Lisa C he/she doesn't regularly imply that the child is 'behaving NT' he/she just acknowledges that kids is kids and that parents don't automatically get it 100% right 100% of the time!

He/she also doesn't 'clear off when the debate gets heated' but does quite often bow out when people seem completely determined not to acknowledge those realities (for whatever reason), or to turn an exchange of opinions into a bout of personal 'flaming'

If people take his/her general opinions as specific comments on their children/their parenting that, he/she can assure you, probably has more to do with their own insecurities than any intention on his/her part.

 

VenusDoom - I would consider at least considering whatever baddad has to say, even if only to reject it, because that's what a 'forum' is about - the exchange of knowledge and perspectives. He/she actually does have a huge amount of background knowledge on autism and has, to date, found the strategies he/she's learned and developed over the years very enabling for the autistic adults and children he/she has personally supported. He/she doesn't claim to be 100% right (regardless of what you might hear!), but don't hold that against him/her!

 

Coming back on topic now after that rather strange diversion I'll just respond to the original question: No I don't think your son is really hearing things that haven't been said. Whether he is interpeting what he hears as something else is another question entirely, but I've answered that one already.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Karen A]

Hi Venusdoom.

I am feeling tired and frustrated.I have spent the weekend attempting to manage with an 11 year old with AS who has just started at secondary school and is over five feet tall, currently rude and extremely challenging.I do not feel I have managed any better than yourself.I also have a huge amount of background knowledge and have been around on the Forum for some time.My husband and I have been supported by CAMHS for three years and have recieved intensive support in parenting.We have another son [13] who is the most capable mature individual anyone would care to know.My husband is actively involved at home.

 

I am waffling but do not want you to think that you are failing.If there was one easy solution that worked we would not need a Forum.We would all just buy the answer book.

I edited to add.My Ben has just started at secondary.I do think that his current behaviour is related to anxiety and stress due to the huge changes he is coping with.

I wonder if your son has just started school or returned after the holiday ? Karen.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Karen A

[morgan and alexandra]

Hi Venusdoom

 

I just wanted to let u know you that my DD 10 interprets things we have said the wrong way and then accuses us of saying things we haven't said. It can lead to major meltdowns. I have found in the initial circumstance that trying to engage with her at these times only makes the situation worse.

 

If I leave her to calm down then the meltdown is much shorter in time and when she is ready to talk then I try and explain in a way she understands what was said. It IS very time consuming but it does work for me. Hope this helps.

[bid]

It is best to keep language simple "XXX, it is time to go and get dressed" (a visual timetable is even better), and a simple "No. It is time to go and get dressed". Reasoning with him will just overload him further.

 

Really good point here, and it does make a huge difference. I would also avoid any emotive language, like 'lazy', etc, just because you want to keep things very clear and simple.

 

As a little example, contrast Kazzen's example of the best way to speak to an ASD child, with how most of us usually speak to kids: 'Come onnn, get up those stairs, how many times do I have to tell you? Sigh! Come on, stop being lazy!!' Too much information, complex sentence structure and too much emotion!

 

Good luck

 

Bid

Edited September 7, 2009 by bid

[VenusDoom]

As a little example, contrast Kazzen's example of the best way to speak to an ASD child, with how most of us usually speak to kids: 'Come onnn, get up those stairs, how many times do I have to tell you? Sigh! Come on, stop being lazy!!' Too much information, complex sentence structure and too much emotion!

 

Good point. Its just getting used to it and remembering to. When there are 4 kids running around the place, making a lot of noise, carrying on... it can be hard to remember how to word things for L. So easy to just say things the wrong way. Especially when youre just learning about all this and everything seems so new and confusing. I shall make a mental effort to try this for a few days and see if it makes a lot of difference. thanks.

 

[bid]

Good point. Its just getting used to it and remembering to. When there are 4 kids running around the place, making a lot of noise, carrying on... it can be hard to remember how to word things for L. So easy to just say things the wrong way. Especially when youre just learning about all this and everything seems so new and confusing. I shall make a mental effort to try this for a few days and see if it makes a lot of difference. thanks.

 

We've all been there...my son is 20, and I still make this mistake sometimes!

 

Just keep trying...it's all any of us can do as parents <'>

 

Bid

 

 

[NobbyNobbs]

VenusDoom, I wouldn't take too much notice of baddad. He/she frequently implies that it is the child behaving NT and its the parents fault for thinking/responding to the autism, hence, undermining the child and the parenting skills of some people, despite them having both NT and ASD children, then clears off when the debate gets heated!

Dont doubt yourself, you explained things very well, I hope you find some ideas and answers here, x

i know this is off topic and i appologise to VenusDoom but this needs to be said

 

lisac - while i understand that the majority of posters on this forum are parents of ASD children who can communicate just fine, there are also some who have an ASD themselves. for us it can be extremely difficult to have the confidence to post anything, even in a place like this were we are supposedly 'understood'. to then have you jumping up and down on other posters whenever they give their opinion is extremely intimidating and only makes posting even harder, i already delete most of the posts i write before posting them for fear that they will get a reaction like the one you have just given Baddad. i actually only post on three forums, and since i have no 'real' social life/friends being unable to post here just puts me further into an isolation i'm sure you wouldn't want for your own child. i know you have your differences with Badddad, but please can you keep it to yourself, or to constructive disagreement, if only for the sanity of the ASD posters who have more than enough anxiety without being afraid of being attacked online!

 

VenusDoom - my sister (26) 'hears things' and convinces herself people are out to get her/hate her etc. she has had this since she was a young child. it is a more apparent paranoia than you suggested in your post but you said it had happened before and i dont know what his behaviour is like otherwise. she was diagnosed recently with something like a mild form of bi-polar disorder, but i can't remember the name of it. she seems pretty normal, then all of a sudden we start getting phone calls with her telling us X is horrible and all the people at work are ganging up on her etc. this continues until generally she leaves the job in a fit of tears and gets signed off with depression. for her this happens around once every 3 months, but can happen more or less. does your sons behaviour get worse or anxiety heighten before he has the rage? it might be worth looking into if you can see a pattern in the behaviours.

[Tally]

I have only ever heard of this in adults with personality disorders, never in children. I do know that it is awful to be accused of saying such hurtful things. Denying it simply does not seem to help and ignoring it is the generally recommended approach. This would tie in with the suggestion to carry on making the original request in clear language.

[Kazzen161]

He was watching TV and was asked to go get dressed. Perhaps it was because the request was unplanned, unexpected. I would usually give him a warning so that hes prepared but his Dad hasnt yet got used to that way of doing things.

 

 

That sounds a good possibility.

 

I was in no way criticizing how you handled it - just "brainstorming" ideas/possibilities.

 

We are all learning - and we never stop learning - just when we think we've got it sussed, it all changes again!

 

 

[VenusDoom]

This whole situation is just so hard to deal with and understand sometimes. He hasn't got his full DX yet. We know that he definitely has some time of Autistic Spectrum Disorder, I am guessing AS> but he has such huge anxiety issues that we aren't yet sure if that is just part of the AS or whether it is something more. Perhaps once we learn how to better deal with his AS issues then the anxiety will lessen. As I said, we are right at the start of the diagnosis and are real beginners. I mean, we have always known our son and he has always had the AS tendencies, but they didnt seem so huge until the anxiety kicked in. Some days I feel everything is going great and its not so hard after all. Other days I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall and making everything worse.

As you can probably tell, its been a difficult evening! I am trying to get him to go to bed without a nappy on. He's almost 6 years old but so far has not been able to sleep at night without wetting the bed. Because his night time has changed we have had a full evening of anxiety attacks, attempts to vomit, tears, hypervenitaling. All the usual. Im shattered.

 

[Kazzen161]

My son wore pull ups at night til he was 7, then one night he was dry and has never wet the bed since.

 

 

[Kathryn]

Lisac, if you disagree with a poster just say so directly. Your post, which I'm not going to quote, is just an excuse to have a go at Baddad - and you know it.

 

 

Kathryn

[venus]

Hi VenusDoom, I wouldn't be too worried about nappies, my asd son was 7 when he was out of pull ups and he has only wet the bed twice in a year and my nearly 6 year old nt is still in pull ups,we tried a couple of nights ago again with him but he still wets the bed , so don't be too worried it will happen when he is ready.

[NobbyNobbs]

medics generally say dont even worry about night wetting until the child is 7, and thats with an NT one! its all to do with physical awareness and the actual size of his bladder, and its not something that can be forced. i know a lot of people who wake their child when they go to bed to take them to the toilet and then think its great that the child is dry the rest of the night, but thats only because they've then got an empty bladder and the amount it can hold is however many hours there are left in their sleep. theres also an issue with the body learning to produce less urine at night, but again they wont look at that (they give medication) until he's older.

 

we had a 9 year old who wasn't dry at night and went through everything to try and get her dry, but in the end it was finding the right thing at the right time that got her to beat it rather than any pressure/bribes etc we had suggested. plus with the advent of drynites its not nearly as much of a problem as it used to be (even if it is rather expensive). its also more normal than most people think so dont be embarassed for him or feel like its something that he is failing in. out of 14 foster kids we've had aged between 3 and 10, 5 have been night wetters!

[puffin]

Hi!

 

I used to find that M (AS/ADHD) used to be more prone to anxiety and tantrums when tthings were a little chaotic and were not predictable. We had this with the school where there were 4 regular classroom staff all with different classroom rules and approaches. However given that this seems to be a problem with you at home - it could be that part of the problem is that you and your husband seem to have different routines - for example with you he gets a warning before and with your husband he does not always. It might ease the situation if you and your husband could agree to some standard routines for morning/night and then stick to them.

 

I think it is also very important that you both try to stick to simple and direct language about what you want your son to do. Many children with ASDs are very sensitive to stressful situation and too many demands or additional bits of information can cause sensory overload and possibly if he is anxious or stressed it could result in him interpreting something incorrectly (assuming of course that your DH didn't actually mutter something along the lines of "I hate when you're like this"). Even if you don't feel it - try to keep very calm and just repeat what you want him to do.

 

I would recommend that you sort out the time out thing while he is still young enough for you to manage. We used to put M in her room - saying that we would come back when she calmed down - actually the tantrums all but disappeared when we started doing this - as there was no continued verbal communication to keep the tantrum going and they tended to die down quicker without an audience.

 

Anyway good luck - hope that you can get some peace at home

[Karen A]

Hi.I just wanted to say that our elder [NT] son had occasional episodes of bed wetting until he was 10.It is not unusual but people just don't let on.