Help Refusing my DS a place in our chosen school

[alexmum2]

My son did not return to his school in September due to bullying which was not address by the school to our satisfaction; my ds was so traumatized he was hearing voices and was put on anti depressants.

I have since been looking for another school where he feels he would fit in and able to learn again; altogether we have looked at 9 schools in total MLD schools as well as main stream. We chose a main stream school which has family connections ( father went there) it is a lot smaller than his present school and he was comfortable walking down the corridors, the children also seemed a lot more quieter than most of the schools we had visited these are not the only reason there are several more. However the only draw back was the attitude of the head when he showed us around the school; he basically said that he was over subscribed in my ds year group and he would contest my request should i choose the school as our named school he was trying his level best to put us off saying things like: they would not make concession for my ds in any way shape or form even though he had a statement!

I contacted my LEA and asked for this school to be the named school on his statement as I wasn't going to be brow beaten by this man; the 15 days was up today when the school had to get back to the LEA; when I contacted my named officer to get some feed back re; our request ;I was told she was on leave but that education officer was dealing with the matter and in a meeting.

My question is what is the criteria the school could use to refuse my ds admittance? the school is over subscribed by 20 pupils in his year.

I have read on the web that they cannot use this as a reason for non admittence however they can use this criteria 1.The school is unsuitable to the child's age, ability or aptitude or to his special educational needs

2.The attendance of the child at the school would be incompatible with the provision of efficient education for the children with whom he would be educated, or the efficient use of resources.

Has anyone else had this problem?

[call me jaded]

Frankly, a piece of paper (the statement) will not change the attitude of this Head and I would have taken the hint and gone elsewhere. You will have the same difficulties of problems not being addressed as before.

 

The three criteria you quote are correct. They could possibly say 1. but the LA won't let them say either of the other two without a bit of a fight.

[wasuup]

The Head sounds like a ........! I wouldn't want to send my child there. Good Luck whatever you decide though!

[JsMum]

 

 

 

With a comment the HT has said how can you trust him, even with a statement and part 4 with this HTs school, it would seem he is not the right attitude or approach to supporting your son and I would go else where.

 

JsMumxxxx

 

[alexmum2]

Frankly, a piece of paper (the statement) will not change the attitude of this Head and I would have taken the hint and gone elsewhere. You will have the same difficulties of problems not being addressed as before.

 

The three criteria you quote are correct. They could possibly say 1. but the LA won't let them say either of the other two without a bit of a fight.

We are not talking about a peice of paper here we are talking about the school cherry picking! and the fact that if my son felt good about the school even just walking around that speaks volumes to me! irrispective of what the head says. Excuse me if i misunderstood where your coming from but I'm not going to be bullyed by anyone least of all an over bearing head. The question i was asking was how can any of the criteria outlined be used in my ds case; i personnaly don't think they can. I was asking if anyone else had been in this situation and what the out come was.

[Sally44]

My son did not return to his school in September due to bullying which was not address by the school to our satisfaction; my ds was so traumatized he was hearing voices and was put on anti depressants.

I have since been looking for another school where he feels he would fit in and able to learn again; altogether we have looked at 9 schools in total MLD schools as well as main stream. We chose a main stream school which has family connections ( father went there) it is a lot smaller than his present school and he was comfortable walking down the corridors, the children also seemed a lot more quieter than most of the schools we had visited these are not the only reason there are several more. However the only draw back was the attitude of the head when he showed us around the school; he basically said that he was over subscribed in my ds year group and he would contest my request should i choose the school as our named school he was trying his level best to put us off saying things like: they would not make concession for my ds in any way shape or form even though he had a statement!

I contacted my LEA and asked for this school to be the named school on his statement as I wasn't going to be brow beaten by this man; the 15 days was up today when the school had to get back to the LEA; when I contacted my named officer to get some feed back re; our request ;I was told she was on leave but that education officer was dealing with the matter and in a meeting.

My question is what is the criteria the school could use to refuse my ds admittance? the school is over subscribed by 20 pupils in his year.

I have read on the web that they cannot use this as a reason for non admittence however they can use this criteria 1.The school is unsuitable to the child's age, ability or aptitude or to his special educational needs

2.The attendance of the child at the school would be incompatible with the provision of efficient education for the children with whom he would be educated, or the efficient use of resources.

Has anyone else had this problem?

 

You are right in the 'reasons' the LEA can give you.

But schools and LEAs do refuse places on the basis that they are oversubscribed. That was what happened with me. However in our case it was an enhanced resource school and all the ER places were taken. So I applied for him to have a mainstream place. As they had mainstream places available they had to accept. However as he had a Statement (albeit we were going to Tribunal), they had to fulfill it. So I kind of got the ER place anyway. The school refused transport, so I had to do that for a while. But we got the ER, transport and everything else when we went to tribunal.

So it maybe that you will need to go to tribunal to get this placement. You say that this is a mainstream school. If it would involve transporting your child to this school they may argue that it is not a good use of their resources as there are other mainstream schools nearer that can meet your child's needs. You need to prove 'why' this school is the most appropriate. You may argue from an 'environmental' point of view your child finds it easier to cope.

But in your opinion is it a case of the head is not offering you a place because they are oversubscribed, or is it because they simply do not want a child like yours. Do they have other children with ASDs at that school. Because it could well follow that you have continued problems with them not fulfilling the Statement or not providing support or therapies needed for your son to cope or to make progress if the school is not ASD friendly. IMO the Head tends to give the whole 'ethos' to the school.

If they are saying this school is over subscribed, have you also looked at independent or private schools? If you have evidence that he cannot cope at his former school, and the LEA are saying your choice is not possible, then they have to come up with something. What alternative have they offered you?

If you went to tribunal asking for a placement at an independent or private school you might get it?

Or you could got to tribunal with the school you are asking for and see if the Tribunal rules that they should make a further place for your child.

The difficulty could be that as you are seeking another 'mainstream' provision, that if you fail to get the one you want the LEA will name another mainstream school. So you need to be very clear, with evidence, about the 'kind of mainstream' environment he needs. Otherwise it might be better to seek a totally different environment ie. mainstream did not work so we are looking at ASD specific.

Remember that the National Autistic Society and IPSEA have both educational and tribunal helplines.

If you need further assessments have you looked at the charity called BIBIC. They assess and put together programmes for children with neurological problems including ASDs. Their report might help you get the school provision you are after. Or it might prove he needs a different kind of educational environment. But either way it should help.

[Kazzen161]

callmejaded makes a valid point - if the Head gives the impression of not wanting your son in the school, and saying that he will not make allowances even if he has a Statement, it does not bode well for the future. We all agree that this should not be allowed, but we all have experience of Heads like this, and the fact that they can make things very difficult.

 

However, going back to your question:

 

I presume you deregistered your child in September, so he is not still on his past school's roll?

I am not sure what priority a home-ed'd child has re: school places when returning to LA education. The LA might argue that he is getting a suitable education at home, so he is not as high a priority as a child who is in an unsuitable placement.

You do not say what year your child is in, or how many children in total there are in that year (20 extra in a year of 60 children is different to 20 extra in a year of 120). There are limitations on class sizes in infant classes, and limitations on other classes due to size of classroom, etc.

Do you know what the class size is for his Year? My sons' year was heavily oversubsribed and the school had to get permission from the Secretary of State to take the extra children.

Generally school's can always find a reason to refuse admission if they wish - however, if you are asking for a mainstream place you may have the LA on your side and they can put a lot of pressure on a school to accept a child.

There is little you can do until you hear back from the school.

Good luck.

[Karen A]

Hi.I know I am not answering your question but do think it is worth seriously considering.

The HT has said

they would not make concession for my ds in any way shape or form even though he had a statement!

Which amounts to saying that he/she intends to discriminate against your child on the grounds of disability.

I can understand that you are angry and do not wish to be bullied.However you have already stated that your child is vunerable and traumatised by experiences at a previous school in your opinion.Is it really wise to place them in another situation where they may be vulnerable ?

I have been in the situation where an overbearing HT was unwilling to be supportive.Ben was already at the school when he obtained a Statement and the HT was happy for him to stay.We spent three years attempting to ensure that appropriate support was in place even with the Statement of SEN.The LA were very supportive but suggested that we consider looking at other schools.Ben has now started at Secondary School and is doing better than we could ever have hoped because school are supportive.

So unless you wish to spend several years in battles with the HT it may be worth looking elsewhere.

 

Edited November 19, 2009 by Karen A

[alexmum2]

Sallt44:

Yes i have sent an email (several days ago I'm waiting a reply) to BIBIC explaining and outlining the situation we are in at the moment.

Kazzen 161:

To answer your question he should be in year 8. Atthe moment the school we would like him to go to has around 900 kids, I would assume that there are 3 or 4 year 8 classes, and no i have not deregistered my son yet from his present school; he is away from the school on medical grounds. depression anxiety ect.

HT's in mainstream don't usually have much to do with SEN kids in my experience, so I'm hoping that if my ds does eventually get a place, then he would be left in the care of the SEN dept and SENCO of the school, also in recent years the school has come up as one of the top ten schools in the county not just as a main stream but for their SEN support. Another reason why I would like him to go there.

Unfortunately the school is on the boarder of 2 counties and 40% of the schools intake is from another county and some of those children do have SEN but because the county they come from do not statement their children it was implied by the HT that the support that my ds would get would be used for those that don't have financial backing.

[alexmum2]

Just like to say thanks for all your replies I do appreciate them. Even if i may not agree with them all.

[Kazzen161]

Kazzen 161:

To answer your question he should be in year 8. Atthe moment the school we would like him to go to has around 900 kids, I would assume that there are 3 or 4 year 8 classes, and no i have not deregistered my son yet from his present school; he is away from the school on medical grounds. depression anxiety ect.

HT's in mainstream don't usually have much to do with SEN kids in my experience, so I'm hoping that if my ds does eventually get a place, then he would be left in the care of the SEN dept and SENCO of the school, also in recent years the school has come up as one of the top ten schools in the county not just as a main stream but for their SEN support. Another reason why I would like him to go there.

Unfortunately the school is on the boarder of 2 counties and 40% of the schools intake is from another county and some of those children do have SEN but because the county they come from do not statement their children it was implied by the HT that the support that my ds would get would be used for those that don't have financial backing.

 

If he is not deregistered, it counts as a transfer and he will not be a priority. Do you have the backing of the LA that he needs to go to a different school, because that would help.

 

Presuming there are Years 7-11 in the school that makes it 180 children per year. Round here the secondary class sizes are 25-28, so that makes about 6 classes per year - 20 children is almost one extra class. My sons' school said they would make an extra class, but instead they spread the children between the existing classes, which meant they had large class sizes throughout their secondary education. That impacted on the amount of help they got. If the school refuses you a place, it would be good to find out how many children there are in Year 8 and how many in each class.

 

In my experience HTs set the ethos of the school - if a HT does not have a good attitude to SEN, then it can impact throughout the school.

 

Have you considered starting him at a new school in Year 7? It can have some advantages, and it might get round the oversubscription argument.

[NobbyNobbs]

Presuming there are Years 7-11 in the school that makes it 180 children per year. Round here the secondary class sizes are 25-28, so that makes about 6 classes per year - 20 children is almost one extra class. My sons' school said they would make an extra class, but instead they spread the children between the existing classes, which meant they had large class sizes throughout their secondary education. That impacted on the amount of help they got. If the school refuses you a place, it would be good to find out how many children there are in Year 8 and how many in each class.

those figures must be regional. secondary classes round here have 32-35 kids per class. so adding a few more really does cause problems. one of my classes had 38 kids in and we literally didn't fit in the room, we had to sit facing away from the board 4 kids to a 2 person desk!

 

you also need to consider if you want your son sharing a desk in that situation which forcing the issue may cause

[chris54]

In order for a school to take an extra child when it is already over subscribed there would have to be a very good reason. It could and a dare say would be argued that by taking yet another child they, the school, would be acting to the detriment of the existing pupils. For a child that already has a place at a school it will be hard to argue a case.

 

It is not up to the school what the maximum number of pupils they take is, this is laid down by others, But their funding is set by the actual number of pupils that are on there books. Class sizes are up to the school, within the law, but smaller classes mean more teacher which have to be payed for out of the same budget. But of course different LA fund school differently.