Makaton

[MelowMeldrew]

A social worker turned up before Xmas and suggested (After I complained the SS were total pants at a review !), that we use Maketon to 'communicate' more effetcively with our son, I am not for it, albeit Mum wants to give it a try. My view is my son can understand what we say verbally and even some sign lanmguage and his speech although limited is quiet but OK. I feel communicating via 'pictures' now is retrograde, any others agree ? I know they use it sometimes in school but I objected there too, because I felt without consistent verbal back up they were making things worse in my view. I want to do what is best, why do I feel Maketon isn't in this case ? I rather suspect the social worker has been watching a certain TV film !!

[Kazzen161]

Makaton is used alongside speech. It often encourages a child's speech, because it takes the frustration out of communication, making them feel less stressed about actually speaking.

 

Makaton is a simple sign language; PECS is pictures.

[MelowMeldrew]

Makaton is used alongside speech. It often encourages a child's speech, because it takes the frustration out of communication, making them feel less stressed about actually speaking.

 

Makaton is a simple sign language; PECS is pictures.

 

I worry he will just nod and not speak, this IS what happens in school ! At home I always make sure he verbally responds, h e needs a lot of work to speak as it is, I don't really want him to get an 'opt out', and rely on pictures, you have to be soooo careful with some autistics how you go about it... a child with issues will take the path of least resistence, I don't want him pointing at things with his mouth closed, this would zero comms with his mum....he doesn't do that now, I don't want to set a precedence at home. They are suggesting I do it to back up the school not to encourage better comms at home, I also do not want to create any communication confusion in him, as he compartmentalises everything now..

[Samsam]

I worry he will just nod and not speak, this IS what happens in school ! At home I always make sure he verbally responds, h e needs a lot of work to speak as it is, I don't really want him to get an 'opt out', and rely on pictures, you have to be soooo careful with some autistics how you go about it... a child with issues will take the path of least resistence, I don't want him pointing at things with his mouth closed, this would zero comms with his mum....he doesn't do that now, I don't want to set a precedence at home. They are suggesting I do it to back up the school not to encourage better comms at home, I also do not want to create any communication confusion in him, as he compartmentalises everything now..

Makaton and PECS are both fantastic, I used it so positively to help my son, I would use all three most of the time, If I could sign it I would, point to it and then ask him to try and say it. It worked beautifully because as he learned how to say the word on the picture or the sign and saw my reaction he wanted to do more and try much harder. It's not a case of him not communicating at all as he's learning the words a different way to how you or I would, at a much slower rate but that's ok. It's like my other son in mainstream school, they use jolly phonics and for that for example there will be a picture of a drum and the children learn to mimic drumming on a drum and saying D D D D for the drum noise.

 

[trekster]

www.autreachIT is a project encouraging technology for autistics.

 

Speech isn't the only form of communication. If your son doesnt speak that shouldnt be a major problem.

i had an amazing conversation with a non verbal at a recent autism conference. She spoke to me via her

computer, typing in what she had to say then pressing a button (which could read it out for her).

Also we could have a private conversation during a meeting when the sound was off. i found it easier to

communicate with her than i would a verbal autistic.

 

Some parents have found gluten and dairy free lifestyle has helped their kids to speak. b12 injections

have also helped.

 

Alexis

[Tally]

If your son doesnt speak that shouldnt be a major problem.

Do you really think so? I would think that not speaking would actually be quite severely disabling.

[lisac]

I always felt the same Melowmeldrew - SALT should be working on what language he has and 'stretching him' for the NT world .

[bid]

A social worker turned up before Xmas and suggested (After I complained the SS were total pants at a review !), that we use Maketon to 'communicate' more effetcively with our son, I am not for it, albeit Mum wants to give it a try. My view is my son can understand what we say verbally and even some sign lanmguage and his speech although limited is quiet but OK. I feel communicating via 'pictures' now is retrograde, any others agree ? I know they use it sometimes in school but I objected there too, because I felt without consistent verbal back up they were making things worse in my view. I want to do what is best, why do I feel Maketon isn't in this case ? I rather suspect the social worker has been watching a certain TV film !!

 

As Kazzen says, Makaton is always used with speech to support the development and understanding of speech. Generally, you only sign key words, not every word in a sentence. If it's being used properly at your son's school there will always be verbal back up as it complements speech rather than replacing it.

 

(Just out of interest, one of the three people who invented Makaton was based where I work )

 

Bid

Edited January 5, 2010 by bid

[baddad]

Hi MM -

I think makaton & pecs are both fantastic communication tools but they should be used wherever possible to augment verbal communication not to replace it. Pecs in particular was the be all and end all about ten years ago when my son was dx'd and was shoved at just about every child by S&LT's with a complete disregard for whether they needed it or not! I had a good few 'conversations' (hem hem) with the S&LT contributing to the local Early Bird programme on that very subject

I don't know the film you refer to but if makaton has currently got a high profile it'll probably be thrown at everyone for a while in the same way...

 

As an aside (but not completely off topic) I was HORRIFIED to see an autistic child being supported in using a communication board on a recent programme... These are boards that the children are supposed to 'tap out' messages on (ouiji style!) and they were at the centre of a huge abuse scandal in the States in the late seventies/early eighties. Basically, after one case there was a snowball effect of children tapping out messages indicating that they had been abused by their parents. Several high-profile court cases later it was realised that the carers 'guiding' the children were subconsciously steering their hand movements and directing the answers: with no deliberately malicious intent they were so keen to find an explanation for the 'lost children' (as they saw them) that they projected the only explanation they could think of onto them. I lost my only copy of the documentary on this years ago, but if anyone knows what the official name of the communication board was you can probably find details on the web somewhere...

 

Coming back to the OP - If there are ways you can use makaton (or any other system) to help your child develop better communication that can't be a bad thing, but if it seems like you're trading the long term potential for developing wider verbal skills for a short term gain and a lifetime of compromises then stick to your guns and tell them where to stick it!

 

L&P

 

BD

[bid]

http://www.makaton.org/about/ss_what.htm

 

http://www.makaton.org/about/about.htm

 

MM, it might be useful to look at the Makaton site.

 

It was started in the 1970s, so it's not really a new 'high profile' aid at all. In fact I would say most special nurseries and schools have probably been using makaton for years now.

 

Bid

Edited January 5, 2010 by bid

[Mandapanda]

A social worker turned up before Xmas and suggested (After I complained the SS were total pants at a review !), that we use Maketon to 'communicate' more effetcively with our son, I am not for it, albeit Mum wants to give it a try. My view is my son can understand what we say verbally and even some sign lanmguage and his speech although limited is quiet but OK. I feel communicating via 'pictures' now is retrograde, any others agree ? I know they use it sometimes in school but I objected there too, because I felt without consistent verbal back up they were making things worse in my view. I want to do what is best, why do I feel Maketon isn't in this case ? I rather suspect the social worker has been watching a certain TV film !!

 

Hi

 

I know nothing about Makaton, but I do know how difficult it can be to be open minded about different techniques for dealing with your child's difficulties, when really, deep down, you just want them to be normal and not have these struggles. Please accept any offer of help, they may or may not help, but they won't do harm. Think of these techniques as a lubricant to help the engine work, rather than turning a handle manually instead of using a motor (if you see what I mean). They can be facilitators to help your child achieve their full potential.

 

Good luck.

[got the tshirt]

In the pre-school where I work we are being taught makaton to use with 2 boys one with an asd dx and the other being assessed, they are very young but the 2nd little boy has responded brilliantly he can sign for biscuit, which makes him so happy, he has no speech at all and to see his little face light up when he signs and gets a response from us is just great. We have been told to always say the word along with the sign so hopefully he will begin to talk.

The other little boy began picking up signs from "something special" off the tv. so the Early years senco said we should carry on with it, He does use words aswell but he can be difficult to understand. All the children at pre-school are learning the signs along with the staff so hopefully everyone will benefit.

We even use makaton with my 18 month old Granddaughter, she loves it and says More please. She is also using the words.

 

[trekster]

Think of using it as sign language like you would if your kid was deaf.

 

Alexis

[MelowMeldrew]

Think of using it as sign language like you would if your kid was deaf.

 

Alexis

 

All the advice was totally anti the sign language approach, even with speech, they said our son would emulate a deaf person and never speak ! His special school is STILL against tuition of sign language and that is a dedicated autistic school, his first speech therapist was horrified we considered it, so we sacked her, mainly because her attitude was not acceptable, as she was derogatory to his mother who is deaf, I said you are cutting his communication to his parent. Then we more or less got nagged into submission that speech was the only way to go, and they went that way, but, his speech is LESS now than it was when he started at autistic school, so I felt at the review it wasn't working, plain and simple, they are doing it wrong or his issue had changed. So they want US to learn Maketon ? I think back to when my child was 'pre' autistic (Bear with it !), in that as a very young child he could rattle off numbers and count long before his peers at the same age, indeed mastered the entire sign language alphabet a-z, was a child who really enjoyed mixing and playing with others, then the autism kicked in overnight and it was all lost, I still cannot really understand why, it is the basis of me blaming MMR. I had high hopes of an autistic school, I am wondering why didn't I teach him, it could not have been any worse. Perhaps I need to call an urgent review again and explain what I feel in words they will understand. I want his speech and languge addressed differently, I don't want the school or language/speech people to determine what it should be, I think they have had 3 years already getting nowhere... I KNOW my son is capable of much more than the school is getting from him, so logic suggests they are not doing it right. I'm thinking they will fight that view, and I don't want confrontations it doesn't help any of us, but they need to listen.

[zaman]

I was dead against using Makaton for my son as I was concerned that it would replace his limited speech. I was proved wrong. The pre-school SALT unit that he attended once a week really did demonstrate to me, in the way that it was practiced, that it supported his speech. I went along to evening classes so that I could learn it as well. He is now nearly nine and we haven't used it for years. The analogy that helped me understand why it was being pushed at us was it was like putting stabalisers on a bike, which you eventually take off when that extra support is no longer needed.

 

Interesting point about your sign being discouraged from using sign language with his mum. My husband is from the middle east and we have brought our kids up bi-lingually, which was largely frowned upon. Most of the 'experts' felt that it would be too much for an autistic child to deal with. All but the SALT who was extremely supportive, and could see the bigger picture re how communication worked within the family.

[MelowMeldrew]

What is the priority effective communication ? with the school or effective communications with the parent, that is what we were faced with. It is not a position we should be faced with. Do you have your child walking outside the home with a set of maketon cards or what ? how does he or she use them to communicate outside ? If it is ANYTHING like sign language then no point, no-one uses or respects it, for a child to attempt that on the street with peers seems doomed to failure to me. These are systems for set circumstances in ideal conditions, the street is not like that as we know. When I insist at home my son uses his voice he does, when he is at school they don't press the point it seems to me. I don't put up with nods of the head and a mouthed silence, which is what the school says he does there. Autistics need rules laid down as we know and respond to that more positively, but clearly the different approaches family and school are using isn't complimentary. The point being I have PROVED an important capability is there,while they, are saying it isn't but they are 'working' on it. Either we are in this together or I examine alternatives it seems to me... Speech with sign language isn't a choice for my son, but a neccessity for his parental communication. The school has to mirror that I feel, especially as this maketon does not appear to be working at school because of the approaches the family has a need to use. I want an sign class set up at the school, or him attending such a class there, it's better at the school as they can tailor it to the academic side.

[Kazzen161]

I am a bit confused over what you want from the school - do you want them to teach him another sign language but not Makaton? Makaton is a sign language. From what I recall Makaton is a simplified version of BSL, and deaf children will go on to use BSL proper as they get older. It is child friendly, and young children are often very keen to learn to use it (a local school has a unit for the deaf and the children in the school are all taught sign language). It is not being seen as a long-term solution for your child - it is being used to facilitate communication. The more children can communicate their needs, the more they will want to/see the point of it. As you know your child CAN speak, then it should encourage his speech. You may be able to insist your child speaks, but staff in schools cannot just ignore a child if they refuse to speak, or force them to speak.

 

 

If you find out more about Makaton, you can then make a reasoned decision and argument based on that knowledge.

http://www.makaton.org/about/ss_what.htm

(It does say: The signs used with the Makaton programme in the UK are from British Sign Language (BSL)

Ask the school to tell/show you how it will be used.

 

 

The BBC programme Something Special uses Makaton: http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbeebies/grownups/abo...ngspecial.shtml

It says:

Parents and carers should not worry about children learning Makaton signs. The signs are based on gestures we all use and help children who find communication difficult, understand and make themselves understood. Signs are always used together with speech and children always have to use speech sounds or words when they sign to their teachers, parents or friends. When children become more confident speakers they simply stop using signs, as they no longer need them.

 

 

[MelowMeldrew]

I am a bit confused over what you want from the school - do you want them to teach him another sign language but not Makaton? Makaton is a sign language. From what I recall Makaton is a simplified version of BSL, and deaf children will go on to use BSL proper as they get older. It is child friendly, and young children are often very keen to learn to use it (a local school has a unit for the deaf and the children in the school are all taught sign language). It is not being seen as a long-term solution for your child - it is being used to facilitate communication. The more children can communicate their needs, the more they will want to/see the point of it. As you know your child CAN speak, then it should encourage his speech. You may be able to insist your child speaks, but staff in schools cannot just ignore a child if they refuse to speak, or force them to speak.

 

 

If you find out more about Makaton, you can then make a reasoned decision and argument based on that knowledge.

http://www.makaton.org/about/ss_what.htm

(It does say: The signs used with the Makaton programme in the UK are from British Sign Language (BSL)

Ask the school to tell/show you how it will be used.

 

 

The BBC programme Something Special uses Makaton: http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbeebies/grownups/abo...ngspecial.shtml

It says:

Parents and carers should not worry about children learning Makaton signs. The signs are based on gestures we all use and help children who find communication difficult, understand and make themselves understood. Signs are always used together with speech and children always have to use speech sounds or words when they sign to their teachers, parents or friends. When children become more confident speakers they simply stop using signs, as they no longer need them.

 

 

If they are going to use signs they might just as well do the real thing as the deaf do as averse to using pictures. I also do not think you will find many deaf who will agree Maketon is a sign form. Mum is a fluent BSL user you won't convince her Maketon is an effective alternative. The issue is we want communication options changed, we feel OK you had your shot and put aside the effective communications WE use, as per pro advice, now it's your turn to try ours. I don't force my child to speak either, but the rule at home is he has to use his voice at all times. The school are supposed to be professionals and find a way to do this too. They are saying he cannot, and this is absolutely incorrect. I have to challenge that because they will put it on a statement, and mislead on directions to take. If he isn't speaking it's an school issue, not a home one, they need to fess up their system isn't working and adjust the support to meet the child's needs, NOT Theirs. Each according to need, wasn't that a government guideline ? Our son was being ill served via old prejudices of hearing managements and social service advices that frankly are 25 years out of date now. MY son has 4 years education left, after that we will and he will, get dumped support-wise, it's now or never really.

[baddad]

I've always believed that international sign should be an option on the curriculum along with (i.e.) French or German or any other 'foreign' language. Let's face it, the chances are much higher in general day to day living of coming into contact with a non-verbal disabled person than a non-English speaking French or German person (even if the natural inclination is to 'pretend not to see' the former, they are still there in greater numbers and maybe the reaction would change if communication wasn't such an issue?)...

That said, sign is sign, and if somebody can speak or be taught to speak that gives them a huge communication advantage (until the problem touched on above is resolved) in our society over those who do not.

I don't think(?) MM has any problem with the concept of learning both - just with overlooking one in favour of the other when both seem achievable.

 

Trying to force a child who cannot speak to speak would be abusive. Enabling a child who could learn to speak not to in full knowledge that it would compromise their life opportunities would also (IMO) be abusive.

MM feels the school are trying to do (in danger of doing) the latter, and I can fully understand why that's not seen as acceptable.

 

L&P

 

BD

[trekster]

All the advice was totally anti the sign language approach, even with speech, they said our son would emulate a deaf person and never speak !

 

Hard to say if that would be the case for your son, but why is that a problem if he cant speak? i was given extensive speech therapy age 3 because i couldn't string a sentence together, within 6 months i could talk but i am not your son.

His special school is STILL against tuition of sign language and that is a dedicated autistic school, his first speech therapist was horrified we considered it, so we sacked her, mainly because her attitude was not acceptable, as she was derogatory to his mother who is deaf, I said you are cutting his communication to his parent. Then we more or less got nagged into submission that speech was the only way to go, and they went that way, but, his speech is LESS now than it was when he started at autistic school,

 

i can see how it could be difficult to implement this form of communication for your son. Well done for sacking the 1st speech therapist! i cant stand old school professionals. Maybe hes feeling the pressure to speak and hes too scared to talk? That's nothing against you but i can pick up on atmospheres and his hearing could be well developed compared with his speech.

so I felt at the review it wasn't working, plain and simple, they are doing it wrong or his issue had changed. So they want US to learn Maketon ?

 

This does sound like an unacceptable blame the parents type of situation. whichever intervention is used it has to be consistent. If i was having access to gluten at my youth club once a month (for example) it would cancel out the effects of being gluten free. i agree they shouldn't be passing the buck onto you and there is a lot of (unjust) pressure on the parents to get it right.

 

Have you spoken with the advocacy for education team at the NAS? http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=143&a=9995

0845 070 4002

I think back to when my child was 'pre' autistic (Bear with it !),

 

i am very open to the fact that kids can develop autism due to some sort of environmental trigger.

in that as a very young child he could rattle off numbers and count long before his peers at the same age, indeed mastered the entire sign language alphabet a-z, was a child who really enjoyed mixing and playing with others, then the autism kicked in overnight and it was all lost, I still cannot really understand why, it is the basis of me blaming MMR.

 

Sounds like he was hyperlexic before his autism diagnosis. i got worse after the MMR and that was whilst at university! Also they tricked me into having the shot telling me it was a mumps shot instead of an MMR. i had IBS after that date and mentally went downhill.

I had high hopes of an autistic school, I am wondering why didn't I teach him, it could not have been any worse. Perhaps I need to call an urgent review again and explain what I feel in words they will understand. I want his speech and language addressed differently, I don't want the school or language/speech people to determine what it should be,

 

i think that sounds like a constructive thing to do. Wondering if getting the NAS involved (see link mentioned earlier) would carry more weight with helping your son?

I think they have had 3 years already getting nowhere... I KNOW my son is capable of much more than the school is getting from him, so logic suggests they are not doing it right. I'm thinking they will fight that view, and I don't want confrontations it doesn't help any of us, but they need to listen.

 

Make sure you film any incidents of when he can do amazing things to show at the meeting. i was also sold short before i managed (5 years later) to connect with a college that accepted and was understanding of my needs.

 

Alexis

 

[trekster]

If they are going to use signs they might just as well do the real thing as the deaf do as averse to using pictures. I also do not think you will find many deaf who will agree Maketon is a sign form. Mum is a fluent BSL user you won't convince her Maketon is an effective alternative. The issue is we want communication options changed, we feel OK you had your shot and put aside the effective communications WE use, as per pro advice, now it's your turn to try ours. I don't force my child to speak either, but the rule at home is he has to use his voice at all times. The school are supposed to be professionals and find a way to do this too. They are saying he cannot, and this is absolutely incorrect. I have to challenge that because they will put it on a statement, and mislead on directions to take. If he isn't speaking it's an school issue, not a home one, they need to fess up their system isn't working and adjust the support to meet the child's needs, NOT Theirs. Each according to need, wasn't that a government guideline ? Our son was being ill served via old prejudices of hearing managements and social service advices that frankly are 25 years out of date now. MY son has 4 years education left, after that we will and he will, get dumped support-wise, it's now or never really.

 

In that case your son is selectively silent and severe anxiety is causing him to be unable to speak. If he can talk at home but not at school

 

"Signs & Symptoms

 

* A persistent failure to speak in specific social situations in which speaking is expected (e.g., at school) despite speaking in other situations

* Lack of speech which interferes with educational or occupational success

* Silence is of at least one month's duration after the beginning of the school year

* Failure to speak not due to lack of knowledge of language used in the situation

* The disturbance is not solely accounted for by a Communication Disorder, Psychotic Disorder, or a Pervasive Developmental Disorder.

" http://www.aboutourkids.org/families/disor.../signs_symptoms

 

Somehow i feel "to speak all the time" is a very unobtainable rule for a kid who has problems speaking.

 

Alexis

[bid]

I'm a bit concerned that there seems to be quite a bit of confusion over what Makaton is actually used for in this thread Makaton is not used to replace speech. The signs are always used with speech...that's central to the whole system. It wasn't designed as a deaf signing system, but to support hearing people who had difficulties with speech and language.

 

One thought I had about BSL is the fact that, as I understand it, it uses its own grammar which is not necessarily the same as spoken grammar (by this I mean the word order within a sentence). Makaton on the other hand has no grammar whatsoever, because it is designed to be used with speech, not to support every word in a sentence but really the key words.

 

Another positive of Makaton is that it is that the signs are truly universal, whatever language is spoken, and it is used and recognised around the world. Again as far as I understand, deaf sign language actually differs from country to country around the world so there isn't any universal deaf sign language as far as I am aware.

 

I learnt Makaton at our local FE college about 7 or 8 years ago, and I've used it for the last 5 years professionally. I would echo other posters positive experiences of using Makaton with autistic children.

 

Bid

Edited January 7, 2010 by bid

[KezT]

It depends on your son's level of communication ability really. In his situation, he needs to be able to communicate effectively in both BSL and spoken English, as those are the first? languages of his parents.

 

Makaton is a way of assisting with the spoken English part of his communication. It is very different to BSL as you can't really have a conversation in makaton - it is primarily signs for "things" and can only communicate very basic ideas - a bit like the early stages of speach where a child might say "ball" and "dad" and leave you to try to work out of they mean dad is playing with the ball, dad, would you get me the ball, dad looks like a ball etc.......... (although makaton can give that kind of detail) It is becoming quite widespread - especially since the lovely Justin came onto cbeebies LOL. My NT kids learn it at school and through the TV, although they don't use it much unless someone else uses it first as speech is quicker! I have never seen them sign anything without also saying it - the two are taught as a single thing, so it may help with encouraging him to use his voice a bit more.

 

BSL is a "proper" language, with all the nuances of that, and the lifelong learning required. Just remind all professionals that your son is bi-lingual and that they have to accept that the same as if mum only spoke Japanese! It is not a question of which language he learns, but of working to ensure he learns and uses both.

[MelowMeldrew]

I'm a bit concerned that there seems to be quite a bit of confusion over what Makaton is actually used for in this thread Makaton is not used to replace speech. The signs are always used with speech...that's central to the whole system. It wasn't designed as a deaf signing system, but to support hearing people who had difficulties with speech and language.

 

One thought I had about BSL is the fact that, as I understand it, it uses its own grammar which is not necessarily the same as spoken grammar (by this I mean the word order within a sentence). Makaton on the other hand has no grammar whatsoever, because it is designed to be used with speech, not to support every word in a sentence but really the key words.

 

Another positive of Makaton is that it is that the signs are truly universal, whatever language is spoken, and it is used and recognised around the world. Again as far as I understand, deaf sign language actually differs from country to country around the world so there isn't any universal deaf sign language as far as I am aware.

 

I learnt Makaton at our local FE college about 7 or 8 years ago, and I've used it for the last 5 years professionally. I would echo other posters positive experiences of using Makaton with autistic children.

 

Bid

 

 

You are right in part, this is a major stumbling block in educational areas, in that the grammar is contrary to what mainstream, indeed special school is using, hence any tuition I support would be VIA the school to limit confusions, I'd also settle for signed supported English which near mirrors the spoken form. What we find is almost total opposition TO a sign form as back up, and I think there I am duty bound to take the school on. We must try everything, but we must do it in tandem.. I still think Maketon is a diversionary tactic because they know our feelings on communications. Clearly if Mum is unwilling to use Maketon at home then this is an issue. I am actually unsure as to what level it is being used with my son to be honest. I am trying to be flexible I don't think the school or system is. The school and system is really pitched against us because of the strong deaf background and much wider experiences we have of communication issues and how to learn means to overcome them, as deaf adults we do it daily and from mum's view from birth, so we have a reference point here, I am not telling the school how to teach communication, but as they are struggling, time they listened to someone else. Do you think there is some tutor 'pride' blocking this ? an unwillingness to accept their means are not working out ? Surely the child comes first not them ? If what we suggest does not work then fair enough, but it hasn't been tried in the educational setting. As for selective speaking, yes I've noticed some of that, I considered whether there was SM (selective mutism), involved, but the jury is out. If he is stressed at school then I mean to take that up with them and find out why, maybe adjudge if being in a special school is conducive to him or private tuition at home might be better and less stressful alternative. We should be taking the best of what works at home with the best of what the school can provide, we should not be at odds on this. Am I the only one with the child at centre here ? I'm calling for an emergency review.

[call me jaded]

Personally I'd be asking a SLT whether Makaton is appropriate - can the SW contact one for you? We were advised PECS would be more beneficial for our son.

 

BD I think you're referring to 'facilitated communication'. When I first heard of this I thought it was a joke. Sadly, gullible people were misled.

[baddad]

BD I think you're referring to 'facilitated communication'. When I first heard of this I thought it was a joke. Sadly, gullible people were misled.

 

That's the one... Now i must write that down before i forget again!

Sadly, quite a few not-so-gullible too (i.e. highly regarded professionals offering endorsements etc). As I said in my earlier post, what really scares me is that I saw this equipment being used on TV recently (almost fifteen years after the claims for it were shown to be a load of BS) without any sort of comment being made whatsoever

 

the NAS site give an overview of this 'system' here:

 

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=297&a=3285

 

In no way comparing PECS to this, but certainly there are similarities in the way both were held up as 'the ultimate answer' in their day, and I think there are some potentially equally dangerous ideas (to FC - not Pecs/Makaton which can be hugely beneficial) and interventions out there now...

 

Thanks again

 

BD

[purplehaze]

Hi I actually use Makaton & PECS at work-there are benefits & negative points to all augmentative and alternative communication but it will depend on the child but with makaton & PECS the adult always uses language unless you're the prompter when using PECS-infact research has suggested children using PECS may begin to communicate verbally when using PECS at phase 4, indeed while doing my dissertation on a case study child using PECS he started to use verbal communication when he got to phase 4!!! All professionals and parents should always discuss what is best for the child and the pros & cons etc!

 

[MelowMeldrew]

Hi I actually use Makaton & PECS at work-there are benefits & negative points to all augmentative and alternative communication but it will depend on the child but with makaton & PECS the adult always uses language unless you're the prompter when using PECS-infact research has suggested children using PECS may begin to communicate verbally when using PECS at phase 4, indeed while doing my dissertation on a case study child using PECS he started to use verbal communication when he got to phase 4!!! All professionals and parents should always discuss what is best for the child and the pros & cons etc!

 

 

We use sign language/speech which is visual too, it will just conflict with the Maketon I feel, and, sign IS a language, Maketon is just an aid to it. I feel the issue with my son is not language par se, but his reluctance to use it except when it suits.... so, selective mutism ? you can address that with Maketon ?

[bid]

Hi again, MM

 

I may be completely wrong, but I was wondering if one of the reasons the SALT wasn't keen on BSL was because of the compexity of the grammar, etc? Maybe she thought it would too complicated for your DS?

 

Don't know if this would be a problem, but it might explain why they weren't keen?

 

But I also thought, if you and your wife want your DS to use BSL at home surely that's your progative as parents, as in effect you are a bi-lingual family.

 

Bid

[MelowMeldrew]

Hi again, MM

 

I may be completely wrong, but I was wondering if one of the reasons the SALT wasn't keen on BSL was because of the compexity of the grammar, etc? Maybe she thought it would too complicated for your DS?

 

Don't know if this would be a problem, but it might explain why they weren't keen?

 

But I also thought, if you and your wife want your DS to use BSL at home surely that's your progative as parents, as in effect you are a bi-lingual family.

 

Bid

 

I'm not keen on BSL myself, I prefer signed English, in fact parents of deaf children prefer it, it is left to teenage to try BSL out AFTER they have attained an understanding of English really, it's in contention with purists of course. I suggested Signed English be taught AT school so as to keep in with the curriculum, I didn't suggest teaching BSL at home to conflict with anything, and SE is as easy to follow as BSL with us anyway. I cannot understand why the school is throwing picture cards at us and our son really, it's not I feel suitable to the conditions, I want to work WITH the school I don't feel they are pulling out any stops, just going their own usual way cos its suits the most there. They have a system expect our son and us to fit into it, it isn't going to happen, I want to avoid disruption and confusions, if as we suspect our son is NOT going to attempt speech as his major mode of communicating in any shape or form then I want to try alternatives, which has WORKED for children who don't speak, we are in this together or we aren't, each according to need right ? His Mum said he would be better off in a deaf school than an autistic one... because they seem unnerved by the thought of using sign. They seem convinced deaf people have no communications at all ! when in reality deaf children are AHEAD of hearing peers in many special schools and on English too, they aren't distracted by noise etc and tend to concentrate more on what the teachers are saying. Does anyone think I have a serious inability to communicate ?

Edited January 20, 2010 by MelowMeldrew

[MelowMeldrew]

My son's social worker (Another in a long line of wannabee support workers !), has said he doesn't believe teaching sign language to our son is viable as no-one outside our home uses it. He seems determined we support the Makaton PECS system and says that is what he 'thinks' the school is using to communicate. except the school has ignored all his contacts so far ! He wants to arrange a meeting between us, him and the teacher to suggest we as parents are taught to use maketon to assist him outdoors as well, which means he has to provide communication support TO his sign using Mum too, who is still dubious about a card system, stating she feels him walking the streets with a set of cards to show what he needs is not on any more than the sign he is against, indeed feels he would be targeted for teasing so using them outside the home.. Do these 'cards' show conversations ? or is it just pictures of things ? Do these cards encourage LESS speech ? will he take the path that is easiest rather than speak more ? if so it is self defeating. My son at home gives every indictation he understand most of the conversations we have with him, and provides acceptable responses, albeit limited ones, and the mode I use is entirely verbal. All I am getting is more confused about how to approach further communication needs. The original idea to use Maketon was based the SW said, on improving communications to his MOTHER, not to the wider world, as I had expressed difficulties as his mum is a total sign using person, and my son poor devil, has no real option but to sign if he wants to communicate effectively to his mother, and she is very very reluctant to go for a different comm system herself, alebit I will try anything. Now the SW has switched to PECS because he believes that is a better system for HIM in the future, he isn't convincing me at present, can anyone else ? Even without reading between the lines I understand he is saying the child is important not the mother now, and we need to equip him as we can for the time he may have to fend on his own, although I doubt it is feasible personally, or the SW being a newbie knows what he is talking about, he has no experience of Autism and is in reality a worker with the deaf. My experiences are he will vanish in a few months as all the rest did ! What I get from the school is my son speaks rarely and quietly, not that he doesn't communicate at all... and gives numerous indications he understands a lot more than he ever gives out. I tried to talk to him about these cards at school, and he says he doesn't want to use them, that old conflict of compartmentalisatiopn rears its head, school/home different planets, he doesn't bring his 'work' home with him, ever ! The biggest issues we have had, are where the school and us have tried to find the same levels, he won't have it.

Edited February 12, 2010 by MelowMeldrew

[kittycat71]

We use sign language/speech which is visual too, it will just conflict with the Maketon I feel, and, sign IS a language, Maketon is just an aid to it. I feel the issue with my son is not language par se, but his reluctance to use it except when it suits.... so, selective mutism ? you can address that with Maketon ?

 

Yes you can address selective mutism with Makaton!

 

Makaton takes away the pressure on the child to produce speech to order.

 

Does your son use BSL already? If so then I can understand why you would prefer him to use and be taught BSL as a way of communicating.

 

However, Makaton is used to "support" speech, that doesn't mean that your son will also have to use PECs that will depend on how well/quickly he picks up the use of Makaton.

 

I work with children with SEN and S&L disorders and Makaton is an effective tool for children with selective mutism, ASD's and many other disorders where speech is either delayed or not able to be used. The children & teachers within the classroom and school will also learn Makaton to help communicate with the child/ren with out speech and this takes the pressure away from the non-verbal child.

 

You may see it as a step backwards but, sometimes you need to go backwards to be able to move on.

[purplehaze]

Firstly I have to say I have only read quickly-sorry

 

I can understand your resistence as to me it sounds like the professionals are not sure of what they are doing-lets do this-no lets do this-makaton then PECS etc

 

Are they saying you should use makaton and PECS or one or the other????

 

I use both at work and they can be very helpful-infact there is research to suggest that children may start to use more verbal communication when they start using PECS at phase 4 (sentence strip)!!!!!

 

you need to think about the facts-what is your child doing-what would you like him to do-what would help/support him at home and school??????? If he is using verbal communication and sign language then why are they saying he needs to change that to something else-you wouldn't expect a child to change from using English (whan English is going ok) to Chinese and vice versa (unless he lived in a dual herritage family of course)-hope you know what I'm getting at- or have I missed what you are saying!!!! XXX

 

Edited to say if your using sign language and feel it's working then the school need to be using this not trying to get you to change to something that they use!!!

Edited February 18, 2010 by purplehaze

[MelowMeldrew]

Firstly I have to say I have only read quickly-sorry

 

I can understand your resistence as to me it sounds like the professionals are not sure of what they are doing-lets do this-no lets do this-makaton then PECS etc

 

Are they saying you should use makaton and PECS or one or the other????

 

I use both at work and they can be very helpful-infact there is research to suggest that children may start to use more verbal communication when they start using PECS at phase 4 (sentence strip)!!!!!

 

you need to think about the facts-what is your child doing-what would you like him to do-what would help/support him at home and school??????? If he is using verbal communication and sign language then why are they saying he needs to change that to something else-you wouldn't expect a child to change from using English (whan English is going ok) to Chinese and vice versa (unless he lived in a dual herritage family of course)-hope you know what I'm getting at- or have I missed what you are saying!!!! XXX

 

Edited to say if your using sign language and feel it's working then the school need to be using this not trying to get you to change to something that they use!!!

 

 

we've never made an issue of the sign language thing, mostly because every pro we came into contact with was totally against its use. We took that advice, obviously sign is used in the HOME, but again I had deferred to pro advice to maintain always the spoken approach. We seem at a crossroads in communications now where I believe the school is losing the speech arguments, because our son is resisting them and us, if the boy has decided to he doesn't want to talk for whatever, then we know he is aware of the signed option, so why not try that now ? was my view but only in the educational environment where he could still follow the curriculum, but they won't entertain the idea. As far as PECS/Maketon if the lad gains confidence walking into a shop with cards I'd be for it, but he resists that in school now where they use it, which isn't in a daily sense as I understand. I think the lack of agreement on the best way forward is making more issues. I've always deferred to pro advice, I now think the pros are just being obstructive. I think the autistic unit is now wrong, and so was the advice I took at day one, they tried we agreed, OK but it has failed, so ? what next ? We haven't taught our son BSL they didn't want us to do that, in case it conflicted with their 'systems' and caused more issues. Now I think a total immersion course IN sign is the best option, deaf people manage with no speech they have to... and apart from an occasional whisper that is what my son appears to be.... Perhaps take him back out of school and an immersion course in sign somewhere. It's always been a rocky road with speech and language therapists anyway, because they tended not to focus on the boy but on his mothers deafness. Some of the views they came out with were downright offensive and we sacked one therapist. They fact remains the parents still have 100% better communication than they do, so as we have a proven that point what we use works to some degree, why are they opposing ? to prove a point or something ? One Social Worker said "It's a waste of time teaching him sign language... nobody he will meet will understand him..." I said so he will have no issues walking around the streets with cards ? AS one person said it is used IN conjunction with speech, but my son is looking at cards and STILL not speaking much. At least IF he can attain some sign knowledge THEN he can access via interpreters it's what others do... The primary thing is to establish effective communications if we can, NOT to follow blindly one form of it because 'that's what most use.." They/We have failed in it, so do we carry on, or adopt a new strategy ? He's 15 now in 3 years it's all over as we know. I'm not out to prove some signing point, but after all we have tried everything else... maybe except these cards.

[purplehaze]

Hi, this is a difficult one-isn't it. Your so right your son is getting older and a decision needs to be made. I really feel like your in a difficult situation-your not going to know if PECS works unless you try it!!! I only have experience of using it with young children-but if your son realises he is going to get something he really likes- then he may start to use it for requesting other things. When I use it I have to find what the motivators are for the child-because other wise they are not going to request anything. So if I have a child that really likes bubbles or raisins etc then I would entice by playing with bubbles or eating a raisin then when the child tries to reach for the item that is the first bit of communication and then another adult would encourage the child to request the bubbles or raisins by giving me a picture of bubbles or raisins-thats how you begin but eventially you get to the point where the child has a book/folder with pages of everything-food-activities etc and they will place sentence starter cards on to a strip such as 'I want' I see' etc then a card with 'bubbles' or 'snow' (which I can see now LOL). i am often amazed how quickly a child learns these skills and starts to communicate with all the adults using it-it can be very empowering for them!

 

How does your son communicate now-if he wants a drink or something etc??????? Does he get frustrated by not being able to communicate????

 

I think PECS is great for the right child-but if your actually signing anyway has your son ever picked up any signs from you???

Your son could communicate with you and your wife with either sign language or PECS you could teach both-depending on your son but if he requests using PECS then you could give him the sign for the item such as 'bubble' etc

 

I'm not sure of your son's level of understanding but he may be capable of using both eventially or start to prefer one to the other.

 

I do feel for you-you have a decision to make that your not sure will work until you have tried-very hard but may be worth trying-Good luck XXX