The Reality of It

[Howlin Mad]

The reality is:

Nobody cares what's wrong with you

Nobody wants to hire you if there is something wrong with you

You get a job or you starve

You get a job or you can't afford a place to live

You get a job or you end up homeless

It doesn't matter if you "can't stand" your job, you have to do it anyways

It doesn't matter how bad this makes you feel

It doesn't matter if you can't cope, because that's reality.

If you can't cope, then it's game over, because no one's going to be looking after you.

 

 

................

 

Okay, I've been searching for a job for just under a year, and had to change from JSA to ESA, not only because I was scared of getting an interview, but because the JobCenter building is normally so busy and noisy, I hated it.

My parents told me to stop being childish and stop making excuses and to go up to our local Asda supermarket and get an application form, because they have jobs available. I absolutely refused to leave the house, and they started shouting at me. But working in the kind of place is like getting a job in hell! I wouldn't be able to do it.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Howlin Mad

[philipo]

The reality is:

Nobody cares what's wrong with you

Nobody wants to hire you if there is something wrong with you

You get a job or you starve

You get a job or you can't afford a place to live

You get a job or you end up homeless

It doesn't matter if you "can't stand" your job, you have to do it anyways

It doesn't matter how bad this makes you feel

It doesn't matter if you can't cope, because that's reality.

If you can't cope, then it's game over, because no one's going to be looking after you.

 

 

................

Thats how I've felt all my life,but its a negative,but generally truthfull veiw.

I've found through the years that working for youself can help,or working in a creative job helps enourmusly.there's nothing 'wrong' with you.You'd make a better employee than most being hpersensitive you'd be better at health and saftey and have a better eye for detail.think positive and if you declare your as/asd/whatevr be confident and play up the positives,there's never a 'game over' your too intelligent not to work somthing out,even if it's not ideal.

keep on it and build upon your strengths.

[bid]

But I don't hink this is exclusive to AS...it's how life is for everyone, surely?

 

Bid

[Howlin Mad]

But I don't hink this is exclusive to AS...it's how life is for everyone, surely?

 

Bid

 

Beside the point. I couldn't hack high school, and my parents wouldn't let me leave, wouldn't give me help, the high school didn't give me help, and it always felt like it wasn't worth living through. To be on the other side (YAY, life is looking brighter...wait no...) and be told "No one cares about AS, and no one cares if you're 'depressed', you get the ###### on with it like everyone else." But I can't do that. I tried and I can't. I'm sorry that people have it worse and manage to get on anyway, but I can't. I need someone to hold my hand through it (in a completely non-literal way).

 

Ugh, I feel every time I post there's "I" in it. We're not always so self-oriented, we just have so much in.. we want to scream.

[darkshine]

Beside the point. I couldn't hack high school, and my parents wouldn't let me leave, wouldn't give me help, the high school didn't give me help, and it always felt like it wasn't worth living through. To be on the other side (YAY, life is looking brighter...wait no...) and be told "No one cares about AS, and no one cares if you're 'depressed', you get the ###### on with it like everyone else." But I can't do that. I tried and I can't. I'm sorry that people have it worse and manage to get on anyway, but I can't. I need someone to hold my hand through it (in a completely non-literal way).

 

Ugh, I feel every time I post there's "I" in it. We're not always so self-oriented, we just have so much in.. we want to scream.

Although I can relate to the things you say, I can't help but wonder who else you are seeing about these issues? (GP etc)

 

With regard to help, sometimes its really hard to come by, which only leaves one solution.. begin to learn how to help yourself - this might be in small ways, but is a beginning, we aren't all born knowing what to do, we have to learn - think about it...

 

Also, I don't mean to be rude but it seems from some of your posts that you might not be making it very easy for your family to help you, and they may not be making it easy for you. If you want their help avoid stale-mate or aggressive scenarios as it usually doesn't incline people to react positively.

 

Best

 

D

Edited July 4, 2011 by darkshine

[Howlin Mad]

I don't see anyone at the moment, and I know I need to learn how to cope. I am trying, it just takes time, and I'm not ready yet.

 

Also, I don't mean to be rude but it seems from some of your posts that you might not be making it very easy for your family to help you, and they may not be making it easy for you. If you want their help avoid stale-mate or aggressive scenarios as it usually doesn't incline people to react positively.

I didn't throw the first stone. They are the last people I'd go to for help.

[KezT]

I don't see anyone at the moment, and I know I need to learn how to cope. I am trying, it just takes time, and I'm not ready yet.

 

 

I didn't throw the first stone. They are the last people I'd go to for help.

 

if it's tht terrible at home - leave! It might be what all of you need, and you are old enough to do so, and you'll have toat some point! There are lots of agencies out there who can help you find your own place, and even a few assisted housing schemes for people with ASD (but I wouln't pin my hopes on that one TBH).

 

I suggest you start with your local council - social services and housing services, or go along to CAB or DIAL and get some advice about your local opportunities. As a "vulnerable adult" this is one of the few times your ASD can realy help you access services

[darkshine]

I'm not saying any of this will be easy for you but its all about what you want from life.

 

I'm not going into huge details at this point - but in brief - my relationship with my parents had broken down beyond repair when I was 18.

 

Or so I thought...

 

Basically I decided that I wanted parents, and I wanted to build bridges with them.

 

It took years. A LOT of lying (because I hated their guts to start with). And a hell of a lot of effort.

 

Mainly from me. But over the years they started to make the effort too. And more importantly we let each other try.

 

I talk to them often now. I see them a few times a year. I have them stay over and they visit for xmas. We have quite a good relationship.

 

Yes there are many things that anger me, there is a LOT of baggage, but you know something?

 

Parents are people too, they mess up, they get things wrong, they have problems, they don't know everything, they are not god, and the biggy - we are often a lot more like them than we want to admit.

 

Regards

Darkshine

[brainfizz]

It is so hard when you have parents like that, mine were similar. I think often leaving home is the best thing but that probably isnt possible for you right now, the next best thing is to definitely get some outside support, you are obviously struggling to consider being in certain places because of your fears let alone find a job and I think support from professionals could help you to find work suitable and to give you that other end of support that isnt so judging and negative.

You have got strengths and the more you work at doing things you find difficult the easier it will get to go and do those things, I still find it very difficult but do manage to work in a hospital and function quite well yet I have huge social phobias and difficulties relating to people, you learn to apply a mask, (although I have read that this is easier for female asd/aspies).

 

My point is try one step at a time, could you try volunteering somewhere a few hours a week or getting out and doing things you enjoy in a more social atmosphere so you can get used to be around people?

 

I dont know if my suggestions are helpful but good luck with this anyway.

[acid74]

I know how you feel that "no-one cares" and that life if ######, my dad was a drunken ignorant ***** who saw any kind of mental issue as being insanity or fake. School was hell, endless fights and bullying. No friends. But the reality is feeling bad for yourself fixes nothing, I brooded for years and all that happened was I felt depressed and angry and became even more unpopular.

 

If you can't stand getting a menial job (I can't either), then:

 

Higher education > University > PhD > The world is your oyster

 

or something like that.

 

 

Good qualifications the key to the world, without them, then.. yeah, asda checkouts are the alternative.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Suze
rude word!!!

[Suze]

Sorry but dont knock anyone who does a "menial" job , if it was,nt for "them " taking the menial jobs you would,nt have anyone to serve the higher educated university types at the ASDA check out when they buy their food.Higher education isn,t an automatic passport into a high flying job. Your much better focusing on finding a job/work in an area you have a keen interest and knowledge in.At least that way you,ll get job satisfaction and enjoy your work.

[Kathryn]

Agree with Suze . I'm very highly academically qualified yet have been made redundant and am struggling to find another job. Asda (or any other) checkout I wouldn't consider, not because it's beneath me but because the level of dexterity, numerical skill, speed and social skills required- and all at the same time- would be difficult for me! I salute all those who do this kind of job.

 

K x

[darkshine]

Agree with Suze . I'm very highly academically qualified yet have been made redundant and am struggling to find another job. Asda (or any other) checkout I wouldn't consider, not because it's beneath me but because the level of dexterity, numerical skill, speed and social skills required- and all at the same time- would be difficult for me! I salute all those who do this kind of job.

 

K x

I know a good thing about ASDA You get a nice percentage off your shopping once you worked there about 12 weeks (approx)

 

Now, with the prices going up and up, who wouldn't consider getting a nice large percentage off your shopping - ALL THE TIME - its more than worth a thought, and on top of that you don't need separate trips to the supermarket cuz you just do the shopping after work

[acid74]

Sorry but dont knock anyone who does a "menial" job , if it was,nt for "them " taking the menial jobs you would,nt have anyone to serve the higher educated university types at the ASDA check out when they buy their food.

 

Actually I use the self service machines when I buy food at the supermarket, it's quicker and I don't have to do smalltalk.

 

Besides, I didn't knock people who do the job, I in fact used the word "menial" as precisely what it's defined as. Don't blame me for the word!

[Suze]

lol.....I won,t blame you..... "FOR THE WORD".... then...................

[acid74]

That's nice, I won't blame you for not understanding it then

 

I'm assuming you didn't understand it, either that or you were using a straw-man argument, misrepresenting what I actually said to mean something else.

Edited August 24, 2011 by acid74

[Suze]

No I understood exactly what you wrote...the manner in which you expressed your opinion came across as derogatory , towards people who work on a supermarket checkout, and do as you term it a "menial" job.I disagree with most of your post, higher education and qualifications are not a passport to a chosen career or a job.Your being too simplistic.There are those who leave schools with no qualifications but join a company on the bottom rung of the ladder and work their way up and go on to have successful careers.Wether it be success financially or in job satisfaction.

[darkshine]

Although I didn't take offence - I do see the word menial as being derogatory in nature - doesn't it mean, low skilled jobs for servants? In fact I'll check that

 

20 seconds later....

 

Yep, a google search saying "definition menial" comes up with pretty close to what I said

 

My interpretation though, is that it's a word that illustrates very clear value judgements - not that I can suggest an alternative word )

 

I see a menial job as being cleaning the floor in my house, or washing the dishes, stuff you have to do that years ago in better off houses, the servants would do. I've heard someone describe a car mechanic, a carpenter and a brick layer as all doing menial jobs despite the skill required - and I think this is a good example of the value judgements I mentioned - cuz most of us can't do these things without training and skill, but because that isn't gained through a degree, it can sometimes make those jobs be seen as lesser somehow, with a suggestion that the brain isn't required. I've known people who have been in all three of these trades and watched them very closely and I definitely think there is more brain power and skill involved than some might think.

 

Do you reckon its like a class divide word? I'm wondering if it is....

 

Years ago my mate wanted to do something with computers, went to uni, got a degree and a load of debt - I just couldn't figure it at the time cuz they could have entered a job at the bottom and got far more ahead than messing around for 4 years at uni, then another 2 working in mall stores cuz there was no jobs by the time the degree was got - and I still think now that even though the degree was worth it in some ways, a lot more career advancement would have been achieved without the 4 years at uni - and the years of debt and worry too... Especially since they are no longer in that career any more

 

I suppose it depends what the degree is for and what it is being used for that makes it relevant or worthwhile (apart from looking good on a cv)

[bid]

Ah well, acid 74...

 

I guess all those people doing 'menial' jobs, like my son, actually have the last laugh, don't they...seeing as how they are living independently in the real world, earning their own money, doing their own thing.

 

My son, through his 'menial' job, has just moved out of the little studio flat he started in last year and into a lovely 2 bed flat (with dishwasher!! ). Not bad for someone of 22 who left home at 21, and has always worked since leaving education

 

Bid

Edited August 25, 2011 by bid

[acid74]

No I understood exactly what you wrote...the manner in which you expressed your opinion came across as derogatory , towards people who work on a supermarket checkout, and do as you term it a "menial" job.

At no point did I criticize, or even allude to the people who do the job. You are twisting what I said to instead make out I was demeaning the workers. It does not mean "job that inferior people do", which is what you're saying it means, hence a straw man argument . If you misunderstand what the word means that's your problem, don't get annoyed at me.

 

Although I didn't take offence - I do see the word menial as being derogatory in nature - doesn't it mean, low skilled jobs for servants? In fact I'll check that

 

Yep, a google search saying "definition menial" comes up with pretty close to what I said

Close, but no cigar.

 

 

To make things perfectly, abundantly, crystal clear, I said "a menial job". Observe how the word "menial" is an adjective about the noun "job".

 

Definition of "menial", unedited and straight from google

Adjective: (of work) Not requiring much skill and lacking prestige.

 

So no, it does not mean "low skilled jobs for servants", it means "low skilled job". If you want to amend it with "for servants" or "for inferior people", then you've got the wrong definition for the context that I used it in the sentence... a straw man argument.

 

Besides, what would have been a better way of describing a job that doesn't require much skill or talent, other than to use the word that describes a job that doesn't require much skill or talent? You shouldn't get offended by the accuracy of words or the truths they describe - a job that requires little skill is menial, whether you like it nor not, this is what it is.

 

 

darkshine, I didn't specify this, but yes, getting a degree to look good on a CV is not going to do much good on its own. What I should have specified is get a degree that is in demand and that you are interested in, then pursue a job relating to the degree you've done. If the degree is in a subject that is in demand (such as maths, sciences etc.), you should be fine at finding a good job. If, on the other hand, you do a degree in something there is no demand for (I won't specify a subject or suze will get offended), don't seem surprised when the degree doesn't do you much good at getting a job. Employers don't hire a person with a degree because it's impressive (well, not usually), they hire a person with a degree because it's beneficial for the job.

 

 

Ah bid... I have no idea why you are talking about getting a home when this is nothing to do with anything I have said. I never said, or suggested, that you would be homeless with a menial job.

This is another straw man argument, I wish people would stop it with the straw man arguments. Try arguing with the points presented instead of making them up or twisting them to mean something else.

 

 

If you're going to insist I meant things I didn't mean then this "discussion" will go on indefinitely. I will rephrase my point here, without using complex words like "menial" and being more specific about what I mean, hopefully things will be clearer:

 

 

 

If you'd prefer not to have a job that involves minimal skill, as you have more potential than this, a good option is to go into further education because the more/better qualifications you have, especially for an "in demand" subject, the more job possibilities you create for yourself.

 

 

 

K? K. How this is bashing workers or saying they are homeless I do not know. I'm interested to know what other things you are able to invent from that paragraph.

Edited August 25, 2011 by acid74

[Mumble]

To make things perfectly, abundantly, crystal clear, I said "a menial job". Observe how the word "menial" is an adjective about the noun "job".

Also observe how the word 'pedantic' (adj.) may come to the fore when one feels threatened...

[darkshine]

Awww I didn't get a cigar again that's the second time this year

 

darkshine, I didn't specify this, but yes, getting a degree to look good on a CV is not going to do much good on its own. What I should have specified is get a degree that is in demand and that you are interested in, then pursue a job relating to the degree you've done. If the degree is in a subject that is in demand (such as maths, sciences etc.), you should be fine at finding a good job. If, on the other hand, you do a degree in something there is no demand for (I won't specify a subject or suze will get offended), don't seem surprised when the degree doesn't do you much good at getting a job. Employers don't hire a person with a degree because it's impressive (well, not usually), they hire a person with a degree because it's beneficial for the job.

That's kinda what I was saying - but, like you, I didn't want to state examples of degrees with no demand

 

I don't understand "straw man argument" or words to describe words (noun, adjective etc) but yeah, I can see how when you add a word it changes the interpretation - I wasn't trying to have a go at you, just defining one word is all

 

As I said earlier (3 examples of jobs that I have heard people describe as menial - or menial jobs) I think the word still has the same connotations...

 

My earlier story about my friend at uni... there was lots of demand for that work, but cuz this person hadn't got the experience, because the demand was so high, they got turned down because of it even though the degree was a good one, and people with experience got prioritised (I assume so that training wasn't required).

 

So did you mean really low skilled jobs (potentially like someone who empties bins for example) or low skilled in comparison to say a molecular scientist or a brain surgeon - so in comparison, a checkout worker would possibly seem lower skilled - but certain skills would still be required? And do you think it matters whether the skill is academic or something more to do with physical abilities - like manual jobs for instance?

 

Best

 

Darkshine

[acid74]

Also observe how the word 'pedantic' (adj.) may come to the fore when one feels threatened...

Also observe how rhetoric presents itself when bandwagons are about.

 

 

So did you mean really low skilled jobs (potentially like someone who empties bins for example) or low skilled in comparison to say a molecular scientist or a brain surgeon - so in comparison, a checkout worker would possibly seem lower skilled - but certain skills would still be required? And do you think it matters whether the skill is academic or something more to do with physical abilities - like manual jobs for instance?

As I have repeatedly said, I used the word menial exactly as it is defined.

 

I used the example of a checkout job at a supermarket as being a menial job, the fact that there are self service machines that do exactly the same thing that a checkout does, that are intended for anyone to use, demonstrates that a checkout job is menial as there is no need for specialist skills or talents - anyone can do it.

 

Of course I don't mean anyone who isn't a doctor has a menial job, there are plenty of jobs that don't demand qualifications that aren't menial. A mechanic, plumber, electrician etc. don't require degrees (although some kind of certificate may be required), but these aren't menial, you need to have the skills to do the job.

 

Menial jobs are like being a bin man, checkout person, road sweeper etc..

 

And I'm not saying that people who do the job are inferior or anything else about them, we need them, I am talking entirely about the job itself.

 

 

P.s.

A straw man argument is:

 

1. Person A has position X.

2. Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:

- Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.

- Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[2]

- Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[1]

- Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

- Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

3. Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

 

Which is what both suze and Bid have done.

Edited August 25, 2011 by acid74

[darkshine]

A straw man argument is:

 

1. Person A has position X.

2. Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:

- Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.

- Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[2]

- Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[1]

- Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

- Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

3. Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

That's a lot of ways for a straw man argument! Thanks for explaining though

 

I think further education is good for many reasons - jobs are obviously part of it, but things like self-improvement and personal interest are good reasons too, and as you point out, as long as a qualification isn't seen as irrelevant, they can be put to good use in many ways.

 

As for them self-service checkouts - well I must be a ghost cuz they always moan at me for not putting the items in the packing section (which checks the weight I think) drives me nuts cuz everyone else is doing it the same way, but for me it just keeps saying "please place the item in the packing area" and I'm like "I HAVE" they also have a tendency to stop working, therefore forcing me to wait for a member of staff as such whenever I'm in those places I just queue at the checkout - for me, it's actually quicker

[Mumble]

I used the example of a checkout job at a supermarket as being a menial job, the fact that there are self service machines that do exactly the same thing that a checkout does, that are intended for anyone to use, demonstrates that a checkout job is menial as there is no need for specialist skills or talents - anyone can do it.

Have you ever worked on a checkout? Your argument would suggest you haven't. There's a heck of a lot more to the role than the 'skills' needed for a self-service checkout. And as to anyone using them - have you not seen people totally messing up the use of self-service - apparently not as 'easy' as you would suggest.

[acid74]

Have you ever worked on a checkout? Your argument would suggest you haven't. There's a heck of a lot more to the role than the 'skills' needed for a self-service checkout. And as to anyone using them - have you not seen people totally messing up the use of self-service - apparently not as 'easy' as you would suggest.

 

1) You're right, I've never worked at a checkout, but from what you say it sounds as if you have worked at a checkout. What more to it is there than operating a till and scanning items?

 

2) Self service machines have additional features that a normal checkout doesn't have, such as weight sensors to ensure that the customer isn't trying to sneak extra items on or off, checks when age restricted items are purchased, checks the money being inserted is real - these, and more, are additional functions that a normal checkout doesn't need. Saying that people "mess up" when they are using a machine that has plenty of areas to go wrong on is expected. Don't blame the machine going wrong as being the user's fault.

 

But just in case I missed anything, what problems occur for a user of a self service machine that are no fault of the machine and would require special skills or talents (hence not menial) to operate?

 

Furthermore, unless over 50% of users have difficulties, then inability to use the machine correctly is not a case of requiring skills or talents to use, but as being the user's incompetence at doing supposedly straightforward tasks that the majority of people can do. In reality it's only like 10% (max) who have difficulty, this does not constitute as specialist skills being required.

 

 

P.s.

You are verging on a straw man argument, I said a lot in the previous post and you're exaggerating on one sentence. Please try and avoid yet another straw man argument, I'm bored of them.

Edited August 25, 2011 by acid74

[Mumble]

What more to it is there than operating a till and scanning items?

Customers. See also Kathryn's post above.

 

I'm bored of them.

..and I'm bored of tedium. You're clearly unable to accept that people have opinions other than your own and that there may be more than one world view. You seem to have a need to have the last word and will construct elaborate arguments and be quite defensive in order to allow this, dismissng anything that doesn't fit your view as irelevant. I don't have the time to waste arguing against someone like that because I do actually have a life (be that menial or otherwise... )

[acid74]

The skills Kathryn mentioned:

 

dexterity, numerical skill, speed and social skills required- and all at the same

 

Dexterity: that's picking things up and moving them about(???).

Numerical skills: since when have tills not been equipped with automatic adding devices known as calculators?

Social skills: smalltalk? OK for autistic people this can be a problem, but it's not even a requirement, it's just a bonus.

 

 

Not to mention that these are from the perspective of an autistic person, in which case that's understandable. To a person with no legs walking across the road would require some special skills, to anyone else it's no issue.

 

Besides, these skills aren't specialist skills, they're general skills that can relate to any job, not just a checkout job.

 

 

And it's hypocritical of you to say I won't accept other people's opinions, yet here you are telling me I'm wrong. Me not accepting your opinion that a checkout job is not menial is no different than you not accepting my opinion that it is a menial job.

Edited August 25, 2011 by acid74

[Suze]

Acid....totally disagree with you but hey .....who cares ....

[darkshine]

I gave an example of a problem with the self service check-outs

 

(I also have a similar problem with the sensors on electronic doors - it's like I don't exist!!)

[Mumble]

I also have a similar problem with the sensors on electronic doors - it's like I don't exist!

Do you ever feel like someone's trying to tell you something?

[darkshine]

Do you ever feel like someone's trying to tell you something?

who?

[Mumble]

who?

Life. Sorry, it was a joke, but obviously didn't come across as such - very warped sense of humour at the moment.

 

If anyone wants to put down their so called 'menial' jobs, they need to watch the episode of Undercover Boss US that was on Channel 4 last night. The boss who you would say is the educated skilled one couldn't do the so called unskilled menial jobs.

[darkshine]

Life. Sorry, it was a joke, but obviously didn't come across as such - very warped sense of humour at the moment.

Its ok I sort of got the pee take Just wondered if you were gonna say something random or not

 

(its actually really annoying!!! The tills and doors - not you )

 

If anyone wants to put down their so called 'menial' jobs, they need to watch the episode of Undercover Boss US that was on Channel 4 last night. The boss who you would say is the educated skilled one couldn't do the so called unskilled menial jobs.

I saw the ad for this but was banned by a mutual consensus by housemates, and its not the sort of thing I'll get round to iplayer-ing or 4od-ing as the case may be.... Was it any good? Other than the little gem you said about here? (which I can easily believe btw)