Appropriate reprimand?

[invent 10 things b4 breakfast]

I really don't know where to start My son was repremanted yesterday for hitting another child over the head with a plastic skittle. To cut a very long story short(er)... His interpritation of events was that it was his year's day to have the equipment out to play with and a group of girls in the next year up (Y4) came over and told him he was only allowed one set, and because he wouldn't give one set up and they kept on at him he hit them (because he thought they deserved it). They told a rather strict teacher who then gave him "appropriate" reprimand. After this had happened my son went to the toilet and in his words "cryed my eyes out so much I couldn't breath".

 

I wrote a letter to the school because at tea last night he kept banging his legs against the table, when asked not to do it his response was "if I bang them hard enough I will break them and then I don't have to go to school!" I didn't feel this was acceptable coming from an 8 year old

 

This teacher is strict and our son is terrified of him.

 

The response from the Head was that the teacher had been asked to reprimand our son for "physical aggression towards another child".

 

Because we felt that the teacher involved could have been a bit more sensitive before piling in, the school now feel that we clearly don't agree on what form a reprimand for our son might take.

 

This is where I am struggling... of course what he did was wrong to us, but it wasn't wrong to him. How should this be dealt with? Does anyone have any ideas?

 

He has since told me tonight that the girls were tweaking his nose which made him hit out, well I bet that went down well!

 

Bearing in mind our son has a statement of which covers him for 5 hours of supervised playtime - which the school have used in the classroom instead because he doesn't need it at playtime???

[fairies72]

Hi

I can kind of sympathise with you on this one .Firstly as you say why was he not being supervised, secondly he probably found it daunting being told to give up something he was told he could play with.

My son has had several aggresive moments this term , one of which he was suspended for.This was due to throwing a chair at another child (which i know sounds bad) but the full story reveals that he didn't start it and rather than removing him from the situation, he was encouraged to confront the other child whilst in full blown kick off mode!.Not a good idea.It was only for 1 day , but teachers words were , we have to be seen to not condone this aggression.To my son being off school , was the best thing ever.I did point this out to the school.

I would tell the school what your childs words were to you regarding crying and ask why he wasn't being supervised /supported , maybe they might realise it wasn't quite his fault.

Lisa x

[call me jaded]

I've deleted this, as I don't have time to re-write to give a fuller perspective.

Good luck with the school today.

Edited July 22, 2005 by call me jaded

[sylv]

Hi Becky,

 

As Lisa, we had a resembling experience where our son Nick (now 9 y) was so frighten of a teacher that lying down on the ground...fetus position with his thumb in his mouth...alarming for me of course, as we didnt had this behaviour for so long. I burst in tears need to turn around to not let him see.

 

School has done nothing at all, just approched Nick again and again to keep away from the kids who now bully him with attitude. Who wind him up till he kicks off and turns around verbal ....he isnt violent at all anymore...that was hard work.

 

I would complain to school as well....dont want to sound horrible. Our son soils but he has had the first normal poo in his dry nites (we let him wear them sometimes if he is home) since weeks. I feel horrible and quiet angry what happened today but wont hijack your thread for this, have posted about this earlier.

 

All I can say is, stay strong and complain.We went into school as well and they thought we would be not agree with the red card our son got for swearing. We said no, this red card doesnt bother us, we want to know why he was swearing in the first place as it is something he does when very distressed. I think your sons school play the cool and dont want to know it so much resembles with that what we experience right now. I know it is not easy.

 

Big <'> for you and him...

 

SylvXXX

Edited July 21, 2005 by sylv

[Helen]

Bearing in mind our son has a statement of which covers him for 5 hours of supervised playtime - which the school have used in the classroom instead because he doesn't need it at playtime???

There would have been less chance of your son hitting another child if his playtime had been supervised.

 

The school is modifying your son's Statement to suit its own means and the school is wrong in doing this, technically the school is breaking the law - you ought to remind the headteacher of this.

[Zemanski]

this happened to Com this year in high school, several teachers gave him inappropriate detentions but after speaking to them or writing notes have been more flexible, but one - his form tutor, kept on doing it. The behaviour policy says the sanction for x is a detention so that's what he gets regardless of need, disability or appropriateness.

 

this sent Com mad with frustration and injustice - suicidal, in fact.

 

Com became terrified not of the teacher exactly but of his own responses which became increasingly violent. The more worried he got the worse it became until finally he was given a detention in Jan for forgetting a book - I had a very early hospital appointment that day and forgot to pack his bag.

Com exploded and was refusng to go into school or to class.

 

The deputy and head of year backed the teacher and the behaviour policy as did the head at first.

Gave me all the twaddle about having to apply the policy to everyone regardless, Com needing to learn to conform and take responsibility for his actions, Com not being disabled but having a disability(????) ......

 

Then we got the advisor in and things - in that respect at least - have now improved considerably. Threatening a disability discrimination case helped too.

 

It seems from what you say that there is an AS issue here - your son seems very aware of the rules in the playground and this girl, by trying to use the skittles when it was not her year group's turn was breaking a rule. Many AS kids cannot abide rules to be broken, it is one of the things that they find most frustrating in the playground where rules can be very flexible and some become 'playground police' telling tales constantly.

 

If someone had cally explained that, 'yes, it is against the rules for her to have them today but that as we don't need them and nobody else from our year groups seems to want them at the moment it would be OK this time to let here have them' then he may have been able to control his anxiety about it.

 

of course to do this there needs to be someone to notice and intervene before the hitting happens!

 

Zemanski

Edited July 21, 2005 by Zemanski

[invent 10 things b4 breakfast]

Thanks everyone for your comments. To be honest I have just been sat here all night staring at nothing, I am so stressed out I can't actually do anything I just feel like crying

 

In the letter we spelt it out to the head, everything. Our son also wrote a statement on his computer as to how he felt it happened. Of course his version of events was wrong The head is now questioning the continuance of his placement if we can't agree on how he should be reprimanded She's highlighting issues that should be being addressed on a daily basis, like managing his fustrations, surely that comes under the heading of social skills - which is listed out in his statement?

 

I don't know what to do really, I know that hitting is wrong but when the severity of the reprimand means that he's prepared to harm himself, well as a parent I really think that is wrong.

 

I have also written a second letter questioning the Head on his provision in his statement asking what they've done, when they did it and how it's working. It's a pretty lengthy letter and maybe if they'd have made more of an effort with his social skills rather than making sure he can do mental maths then he wouldn't be the position he's in today.

 

I will be addressing the issue of the removal of his playground support. However what I don't want is for them to take them from the classroom just so they can use the same lunchtime assistant that would have been in the playground anyway!

 

How do I request additional hours on the statement? Do I get in touch with the EP to reassess or the LEA?

 

I've had enough tonight and feel like I don't have the strength to fight this Have a good night everyone.

[smallworld]

Hi Becky,

I can understand why you don't have the fight for this,but I just have to add this comment.

My son (only 5) has full lunch-time support. This is made clear on his statement, and is totally different from his classroom support, we were told it comes form a different budget (?) perhaps it's worthwhile getting this provision stated seperately on his statement ?

Apologies if I've got this wrong, playtimes are different to lunch !

[oracle]

Bit late to this one but I would like to comment. The problem with our kids is that rules are rules and so far as your son is concerned he was following the rules and the girls were trying to break them - it's that simple - to him.

 

While I agree that we can not allow physical aggression getting wrong for something you clearly do not understand can actually make a child more explosive, in my opinion. My son is also 8 and can be very expolsive and is often confused because what we tell our kids they take literally, but we do not. We also have the ability to be flexible with what we are told, again our kids have trouble with this. I decided that to make it easier for Matthew to understand I would make the rule 'no hitting out' This means no matter what comes before the hitting out, if he is gettting punished after an incident where he clearly does not understand what he has done wrong, he does understand that the No 1 rule is 'No hitting out' That makes it easier in a way because we are punsihing the hitting. Once we have esatblished that then we deal with the misunderstanding. This does not mean that Matthew does not lash out any longer - he does - it just means he knows that he is getting wrong for the actual lashing out.

 

I have done this because I do not think it does our kids any favours punishing them when they feel they are not in the wrong. This is a massive problem in schools because you can not let a child be aggressive it gives out the wrong messages to other kids. It is the fault of the teachers for clearly misunderstanding themselves that our children are literal and will expect the same from them. If you say something they expect you to understand it the way that they have.

 

I think that this could be why your son was bashing his legs under the table. He is really struggling to understand what he did wrong. I think the school are also struggling to understand and are also being infelxible here. He is confused and with good rights. It is very difficult for any teacher to dot ther I's and cross their T's but if your son is unsupervised in the playground they really need to do just that.

 

I agree I would be looking for playground support to be added to his Statement. Your son is still autistic at lunchtime and playtime and the school have to remember that. It is clear that he needs supervision at this time so the school should not be jiggling his hours to suit themselves. He is the one with the specific needs not them.

Edited July 22, 2005 by carole

[Zemanski]

This thread has good information

 

SEN Support and Information Services

 

find it in the bold topics at the top of 'education'

 

Ipsea, NAS and Parent Partnership can all offer advice and support, including attending meetings with you (PP are particularly good for this last one)

 

call them all

 

Zemanski

[invent 10 things b4 breakfast]

Thanks Carole, that's how I feel and what a good idea for focusing on the one thing ie hitting and not overcomplicating the issue.

 

I have had a nightmare with letters flying around (so far 3 letters with 3 pages each) and school getting all prickly and defensive, and they have now agreed to inintroduce cover at lunchtime, which is good but that doesn't cover breaktime! Which was when THIS incident occurred!

 

Not only that but they seem to have had a knee jerk reaction because we also questioned them on what they had done since his last statement review (March) because our Son asked for help with things like writing and bullying and, as far as we could see, nothing had been put into place. Things like social stories were suppose to have been written and hadn't. So now they basically have gone back to the beginning to like when he first started there and put everything back as if he was in Y1! Seperate desk etc. Not sure if he really needs it because I thought he was coping ok being sat on the end of a desk of a line of kids so he just had one kid next to him. Their letter just quotes his IEP but we can see his IEP and it doesn't say EXACTLY how their doing things!

 

I now feel like I can't send him back at the start of September if they haven't really thought out what needs to be done with him.

 

I have contacted his Education Officer and they have agreed to hold a meeting with the school and us (I asked for it to be offsite - they always get distracted) and I know my parent partnership rep very well (had to involve her in his last school) so I am also taking advice from her, which includes contacting the Disability Rights Commission because they have threatened his placement if we as parents cannot agree on an appropriate reprimand! Huhumm he is statemented for lunchtime!

 

What a nightmare holiday this is going to be, pooring over letters!

[oracle]

If they have not lifted a finger to address any of the issues raised in the last Statement Review - I think you have them - and good grounds to complain and take this forward. Let their knees jerk it's there problem and not yours.

 

They are failing your son and are being seen to do so. Keep with it because you are in the right here.

 

Carole

[invent 10 things b4 breakfast]

UPDATE...

 

I am waiting for a date for the meeting with the LEA and the school (co-ordinating diaries). I have an excellent Parent Partnership Officer to help me and I have no doubt we will get our points across.

 

With regard to the incident at the end of last term where my son hit a girl over the head with a plastic skittle (please see above) and being reprimanded by a teacher so badly that my son was prepared to self harm just so he didn't go to school, well I have found out today (first day back) that this very same teacher is having my son for 6 Buzz sessions (graded literacy and numeracy lessons) a week! My son is horrified and is really distressed about it, as am I.

 

What should I do as the meetings with the school aren't arranged yet and when we complained about this teachers attitude before we were basically threatened with his placement if we didn't agreed to their policy.

 

I feel really stressed tonight, to the point of having panic attacks, something I overcame 15 years ago! What theses b****y schools do to us all

Edited September 5, 2005 by invent 10 things b4 breakfast

[UltraMum]

Could you involve the educational welfare officer for the school? If your son is distressed and not wanting to go to school then they may be helpful and available? Just a thought ...

 

I listened to Tony Attwood when he was over here in May - he said the main problem that our children have with this is that the teaching staff etc are not seen to be fair and often the instigator of the trouble that causes them to lash out either gets off scot free or with a much lesser punishment than our children ...

 

Sending you some hugs and hope you get a rest tonight, even if you're still too wound up to sleep.

<'> <'> <'>

[annie]

Hi Becky,

 

Has your LEA got an Autistic Specialist Teacher (or similar title)? If they have, could you get them to come to the meeting as well. The school really don't seem to understand your son's difficulties. They need to have them explained to them.

 

You mentioned that your son wanted help with writing and bullying. My son used to react by hitting out, it was a result of constant bullying. Other kids knew my son was an easy target and it would always be him who got into trouble for it. Because he was the one who hit out, the teachers weren't interested in what kids did to him first.

 

I would also have a word with IPSEA.

 

Annie

<'>

[phasmid]

Bearing in mind our son has a statement of which covers him for 5 hours of supervised playtime - which the school have used in the classroom instead because he doesn't need it at playtime???

 

If this is written into his statement you can insist that this happens. By failing to follow this part of a statement the school are failing to ensure your son's welfare at ,what is for him, the most stressful part of the school day. Your LEA can take action to ensure that this part of his statement is followed - you need to tell them what has happened to the funding for these hours.

 

As for placing him in lessons with this particular teacher, without knowing more it could be the school have little say in it. If, however, the staff situation is such that they could have avoided it then they should have considered it. You need to point out to them how much distress this is causing and see what their response is.

 

You do not need to wait for the school to arrange a meeting to ask for his statement to be followed. Put the request in writing to them - address it to the head and if no response or a bad one then contact chair of governors. If that doesn't work...contact the LEA.

 

Hope that helps a bit.

[invent 10 things b4 breakfast]

We are having our meeting with the LEA next week on Tuesday 27th and I am amazed at my Parent Partnership representaive. She, being the one advising us to esculate our problems up to the LEA, has now backed off because she's discovered our son scored average and above on his Y2 SATs (18 months ago!) and that in her opinion the Education Officer would take one look and say the school were obviously doing something right! and how she usually deals with children scoring about level 1 and implying that we were lucky our "autistic" child was able to reach these levels let alone beyond. I am astounded! As I actually held this person in quite high regard but it seems she has made no attempt to understand what our concerns are She is suppose to be attending the meeting! What's wrong with wanting the best for your child whether they are high functioning or otherwise?

 

This is not about classroom education, but the training of social skills (something the school lack in helping with). His statement specifies things like friendship skills and initiating conversations.

 

I managed to get his physio into school and explain to his teacher about Aspergers children and the stress they endure etc etc etc (broken record playing here!) So hopefully they will have listened to her.

 

After writing to them asking them not to change anything before our meeting except his lunchtime cover being reinstated, I have found out they have put everything back to how it was when he was in Y1 (now Y4) , so they've ignored that one!

 

Annie, I asked the physio about the

Has your LEA got an Autistic Specialist Teacher

and she said they have but it's a buy in resource, she was actually quite cross about that because the LEA should be just providing this info, the schools should not have to buy it in.

[phasmid]

...and that in her opinion the Education Officer would take one look and say the school were obviously doing something right!

 

Well, yes they are getting 'something right' but, quite clearly they are doing lots wrong as well! A case of not seeing the wood for the trees perhaps?!?!

 

 

and how she usually deals with children scoring about level 1 and implying that we were lucky our "autistic" child was able to reach these levels let alone beyond.

 

Nice for her! Unfortunately ASD needs do not start and finish with academic needs alone. But then she ought to know that!

 

 

Annie, I asked the physio about the

 

Has your LEA got an Autistic Specialist Teacher

 

and she said they have but it's a buy in resource, she was actually quite cross about that because the LEA should be just providing this info, the schools should not have to buy it in.

 

That's not an issue for YOU to worry about. The fine in's and out's of where the support comes from and how it is paid for is NOT something that is your concern. Thats between the school and the LEA. He has a need, that need needs supporting - that support is not forthcoming right now. That isn't good enough. Complain to the CoG if need be - then, if nothing changes the LEA.

Edited September 21, 2005 by phasmid

[raelien]

Becky - Ive only just got round to reading this -

 

I can totally sympathise -

 

 

My six year old was treated in much the same way -

 

his APPROPRIATE repremands - ranged from being suspended for a week for apparently attacking his TA with a pair of scissors - when he just grabbed them back because she had snatched them. He was also removed entirely from his classroom and made to sit in a desk outside the class in the busy hall for a whole week - But they gave him a TA full time so he loved it and di exactly the same thing to the same tacher at the same time of the same day the following week and asked if he could go outside again.

 

He has been shouted at and told hes so verynaughty and violent and a danger to other children - the TA told him she was scared of him.....

 

 

It was horrible -

 

And the only way to stop it is to find a better school - I tried for two years to educate the school as to what to watch for and bent over backwards to help them - - it wasnt enough and itts only now that hes in his new school - a speacialy trained school - he is a different child - he is so happy and calm

 

I know exactly how you feel and never thought I'd see a way out -

 

Shout and scream at your doctor and your local health and education systems - if you shout hard enough for enough time - they do give in. I proved it.

 

Tell the bods higher up the food chain that your statmented hours arent being used right - the best advice anyone ever gave to me - is that the statment is a legal document that has to be adhered to - Threaten a solicitor if needs be - be totally over the top and get upset if you need to - not infront of the school but with the hierachy -