Not lying in ASD???

[LizK]

Been meaning to ask this for a while but reading the thread below about The Brief reminded me. I've come across the statement that children with AS/ASD can't lie several times. A year or so back a 11year old girl was murdered by a 18yr old with AS and the grounds for his appeal were that he because he had AS he couldn't lie hence was telling the truth when he said he didn't do it. Was reading the 'The Curious Incident....' novel and the main character in that states he can't lie because he simply can't. Then read a similar statement on an ASD info website

 

I understand why this could be the case with the absence of Theory of mind etc but is it always? My four year old is starting to lie and show signs of being devious which I assume is a normal developmental stage for NT children. It's so far been only over minor things. For example he asked to go into the spare room to get a toy when in fact he didn't want the toy at all but wanted to go on the computer! He will say he needs a wee when I'm putting him to bed when he doesn't but is using it as an excuse to delay bedtime. If I see him hurting his brother (likes to twiddle his ears currently ) and I ask him if he's hurt him he'll sometimes say no despite knowing I've seen it!

 

I know you can never say something 'always' happens especially for a condition like ASD which is expressed in so many variable way. However the times that I've seen the thing about AS and lying it's like it's an absolute must and people with AS simply can't tell lies

 

Any thoughts?

 

Liz x

[Flora]

Liz.... they can and do lie. My AS son often tells lies if he thinks he is going to get in to trouble. My other ASD son doesn't lie as such, but he certainly makes up the most amazing stories (he told me that he definately saw on the news that astronauts has landed on Mars... I worked out that this was more wishful thinking than actually lying.

 

But in answer to your question, in my experience, they can and certainly do lie.

 

Lauren

[jomica]

My eight year old also lies if he thinks it will get him out of trouble and rarely owns up to anything of his own accord.

 

If I ask him why he did something, he will tell me that he didn't.

 

For instance, yesterday he kicked his brother - I saw him doing it and I saw the events leading up to it. I asked him why he'd kicked his brother and he said he hadn't. I told him that I'd seen him do it with my own eyes, but still he denied it. Eventually he told me that he hadn't kicked him, he'd "miskicked" him - ie he'd intended to kick him differently but it hadn't come off properly, and he saw that as a miskick.

 

I guess that if I'd asked him why he'd miskicked his brother, he would have told me. The difficulty was the perception of the action.

[Brook]

My son can also tell little white lies but, I think the difference here is that when they lie they are so transparent that you can see it a mile off.

 

I dont think my son would be able to make up a BELIEVABLE lie, if you know what I mean.

 

Brook

[alibaly]

Same here Brook

 

 

Re the ear twiddling thing................maybe he really doesn't think he's hurt his brother.

[KarenT]

Mine lies shamelessly, the difference between him and 'normal' children being that he can't fathom out how I know he's lying! He's pretty lousy at it, but makes up for it with enthusiasm.

 

Karen

x

[Zemanski]

I couldnt figure out how my mum knew I was lying either and I'm supposed to be NT - my dad enlightened me a few years ago; they knew I was lying if I looked them in the eyes confidently and my story was concrete - if I wasn't lying I mumbled and my explanations rambled!

 

ho hum!

 

good lying takes quite a lot of theory of mind, you have to know what the person you are lying to is likely to believe, and imagination to make up an alternative to the truth.

 

our kids aren't good at either of these, with imagination they either go overboard or just can't come up with anything and the problem with theory of mind means they can think people will believe almost anything sometimes and can't imagine why they don't.

 

so some kids lie like mad but never learn to do it well - which is good for us but can cause them big problems.

 

some AS kids realise they can't lie well and so just don't - Com is one of these - however, they can misinterpret situations or reinterpret or simply get it wrong.

for example when something happened in class one day I asked Com who his LSA had been, he didn't know, a blonde woman was all he could tell me. So in I go storming over this incident to find that it was in fact D his usual LSA - black hair, built like a brick sh*t house and very definitely male!!!! He was waiting to explain what had happened

 

and some kids' obsessions with rules don't let them lie.

 

but of course, not owning up isn't lying nor is saying you didn't kick someone if they just happened to move as you swung your leg!

 

oh, the joy of the autistic mind - each one is so different!

 

Zemanski

[lynyona]

Im with everyone else on this my son can lie all be it tiny white lies, especially if he s going to get into trouble for something. lynn

[phasmid]

It depends, a lot of the time, on what the question you're asking is and how you phrase it. Yes ASD kids lie, but they also give you the answer to the question you ask - which, when you think about it, may not be the one you really want answered . As an example:

 

Me: Why did you hurt your brother?

 

Phas Jr: I didn't.

 

m: So why is he crying?

 

pj: I dunno.

 

m: Did you hit him?

 

pj: No!

 

m: Did you 'tap' him then?

 

pj: He was winding me up...

 

m: so you DID hit him then?

 

pj: No, I tapped him.

 

m: And that HURT him.

 

pj: But I didn't mean to hurt him.

 

So although he 'lied' he was telling the truth as he saw it. (He didn't believe what he had done had hurt his brother, therefore his answer reflected this.) The fact that I had seen him do this didn't bother him. The question I asked set the tone. Had I led with "Why did you 'tap' your brother like that?" it would have led to a completely different conversation.

 

If he tries to lie (and he does) he makes a complete and utter hash of it. He too wonders how on earth we know. We said it once and he rushed off to check...

 

 

 

 

 

said what? ...

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah....

 

 

 

 

We did...

 

 

 

 

"It's written all over your face"

 

 

 

 

So now, think twice and ask once.

[ceecee]

In my experiense people with as definately can and do lie.They often lie accidentally in that they have actually forgotton they have said something due to their short term memory probs.They also twist what you have said and truely believe that is ib fact what you did say, when it is not the case.

Edited December 3, 2005 by ceecee

[LizK]

Thanks everyone! Seems lying comes in all sorts of different shapes and sizes

 

oh, the joy of the autistic mind - each one is so different!

Oh so true!

 

Phasmid Different situation but what you described rings so true! DS is going through a handy phase with his younger brother. If we ssay soemthing like 'don't poke your brother' he stops poking him but then starts to pinch him or try to lie on him . I'm sure in his mind he thinks he's obeying as we've not said not to do that. We end up saying something like 'don't poke, hit, pinch, tap or touch him' trying to cover every sort of painful physical contact he could inflict. He then loosk suitably unimpressed as he can't find a way around it then and if he continues he knows he's being naughty

 

Re the ear twiddling thing................maybe he really doesn't think he's hurt his brother.

 

Sadly not though I don't think he realises the extent of what he's doing. Left them unattended for a minute or so today and came back in to find DS sitting behind his little brother one hand on either ear pulling and moving them like he was driving a car. My poor baby was not happy, screaming and protesting loudly with bright red ears yet DS carried on merrily. He knows it is wrong and that it hurts Daniel and makes him sad but he gets carried away. As he struggles with empathy and has an immature understanding of emotions it must make it harder for him. We went through a similar phase a year ago when D was born so hope it's just another short lived phase too

 

Liz x

[TuX]

From an AS point of view,I find I cannot lie,partly because to me it's an automatic reaction to tell the truth,if I do something considered wrong,I'll always admit to it.

I also believe in telling the truth because it's the truth that actually happened and not the lie.

[LKS]

Phasmid your reply made me laugh Your so right, it is how you phrase the question. My son if he does lie is really bad. Sometimes I wish he did have the skill of the nice little white lie. For example like after my latest hair cut which he said was bad and didn't suit me (actually he was right )

[Zemanski]

I use questions like

 

- why is Dot crying?

 

- what did you do to Dot?

 

they usually get the most accurate picture of what he is thinking.

 

They've just been in here because he poked her for singing - but he forgot to ask her to stop before he poked so it's not his fault as his brain didn't remind him!

 

ho hum

 

Zemanski

[lil_me]

My son occasionally tells lies but you can see straight through him.

[Flora]

lilme, yes I think many children with ASD can lie, just they are all rubish at it! Something to do with theory of mind... apparently

 

Lauren

[faye]

My son lies but i can see right through him ,and they are normally only lil white lies

[loulou]

Hi,

 

Up until yesterday, i don't think Kai has ever told a lie. He always owns up when he's done something wrong, usually by saying, "I'm afraid there's been a most terrible accident Mummy!".

 

This morning he told me that yesterday, he'd told his teacher that i STEAL FOOD FROM SHOPS! I asked him why he said that and he said, "For a fib".

 

OMG what must the school think of me?

 

Loulou

[mossgrove]

It's true that some people with AS cannot lie , but this is not universal.

 

I also agree with most people here, in the dsense that some people with AS will lie, but they aren't very good at it!

 

I am sure part of the reason I rarely told lies as a child is that eveyone knew when I was lying, so there was no point!

 

Simon

[Lucas]

It definately needs to be put in context about how Autistics tell the truth, lie or seem to be lying when they actually don't.

 

I think many Autistic children get fed up with being set up by other children to take a fall for something. It's not fair that I one gets teased and then the 'responsible' adult doesn't do anything until it's the Autistic doing something wrong.

 

Despite all the experiences you have all had, I still firmly believe that NO Autistic child ever intends to lie. They will however manage the truth for survival purposes.

 

If the teacher asks "Did you hit him?" I would reply with a "No" even if I did hit him because I know as soon as I say "Yes" I will be punished and the grassnake will get off scot-free. If they then go on about how they saw me hit this person, I will say how they hit me twice; first they hit me in the back with their fist, then they hit my fist with their now ###### nose and point out that the teacher must have seen the first one also.

 

Autistics crave accuracy, it is not enough to ever ask us a 'yes or no' question because we know that neither of those answers will accurately reflect the truth of what just happened and this loaded line of questioning will present no true justice.

 

And on the subject of Paul Smith and the murder of Rosie-May Storrie; he didn't do it, what I have heard of this case has been a farce from the start. Where did you get information about the appeal? I've been searching for ages for more info on this case and Nottingham Crown Court was most unhelpful.

[UltraMum]

Lauren:

J is like most of the others

they can and certainly do lie.

...but not very convincingly!

 

Phasmid:

"It's written all over your face"   

Thanks for cheering me up.

 

Lil-me:

you can see straight through him.

in light of Phasmid's message this had me ROFLing!