Baroness Warnocks Evidence

[oracle]

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Edited November 3, 2006 by oracle

[smallworld]

Thanks for that Carole,

I've been waiting to read what was actually said. Now I just have to digest it !

 

wac

[helenl53]

Thank you Carole - I have just got in from a night out and had a quick speed read. It is not quite as bad as I had been led to believe. I think it had been reported as shambolic - but to be honest - it seems not too bad - given that it was ad lib.

 

Best wishes

 

HelenL

 

Off to bed

[call me jaded]

Disappointed by this. I can see why the press coverage was poor.

[annie]

Thanks Carole

 

The reference to children with behaviour and social problems and pupil referral units would, I think include many ASD children. I hope something is put in place eventually to stop that happening.

 

The Baroness's answer regarding SENCOs I thought was good. I'm glad she picked up on the fact that now it appears anybody can be a SENCO. The title doesn't seem to mean anything nowadays and I know of many SEN children who have never even sat down in a room with their SENCO until an annual review (lack of SENCO involvement with SEN children until officialdom).

 

I'm pleased that ASD/Asperger's was mentioned throughout, but it does make me wonder, like Carole has pointed out, that it will end up being re-defined somewhere along the line.

Edited November 5, 2005 by annie

[littlenemo]

When is the next episode due?

 

I suspect they'll get down to the nitty gritty a bit more then.

 

I think MW brought up a lot of issues that need looking at much more closely - there are several points where the lack of evidence, records and research is pointed to - I hope the committee takes this on board.

 

The AS kid she talks about is like many of our own; I submitted a personal picture of Com and how the system has failed him which ties in very closely with what MW was saying so they have at least one other example on record, I hope there are others, from professionals as well as parents.

 

I, personally, am in favour of moving away from large schools for all children - I think children benefit from close relationships within a community and that large schools are not capable of providing the opportunities adequately for most children in their care, not just those with special needs.

I think 500 - 600 is the maximum admission limit for any school if a school is going to maintain it's social structure to effectively support it's pupils. Most high schools are now well over 1000, often up to 2000, no wonder so many kids can't cope.

I think this is why independent schools do so well and are often better able to meet our kids needs even without specific support in place, they do not have better teachers or greater experience and training (often less where SEN kids are concerned) but they do have strong social support across the board (except perhaps where they allow bullying to creep in as Canopus, amongst many others, experienced so badly).

 

lots of things to think about

 

Zemanski

[phasmid]

Thanks Carole, very interesting reading. However I found this leaving twice as many questions as it answered!

 

A few things that stand out for me:

 

The role of SENCo's. The mention of TAs as SENCo's in some schools almost cast the TA as a poor mans choice. I would argue the case that this does not have to be the case. I am a TA. I have taught one or two SENCo's a thing or two regarding SEN provision! Some of us TAs do know what we are at. MOst of us have very deep specialist knowledge of the SEN issues being faced by the children we work with. We do because we have to (or in many cases want to because that means we can serve the child to the best of our abilities and get them to achieve the very best they can!). The idea of TAs being an army of mums working a job that fits in with school holidays should be taken out and shot (give me a gun and I'll fire the darn thing).

 

The scenario discussed regarding the parents of two Downs Syndrome children. Why should this come as a suprise? I have come across parents of NT twins who have sent their children to different schools because they believed that each of them were best suited to a particular environment, each school offered each child something different - no-one bats an eye at that!

 

Q22 Helen Jones: Should we be focusing in this Committee on how we meet the needs of the individual child rather than talking about institutions?

 

Yes! That is exactly what they should be doing. No two children, SEN, NT, or whatever are the same. Walk into any classroom and you will find a mix of abilities present in the children. Take the same group of children through a typical school week and you will see some children excel in art, others literacy, aome in pe and so on. Insisting that all children have to work to a certain standard at a certain age is wrong. We don't expect adults to do it. For example at 17 we don't expect children to form a queue outside their nearest DVLC examnination centre and pass a driving test, do we?

 

Perhaps if they started to REALLY listen to those in reciept of the provision of what the education ayatem has to offer, and acknowledge that they don't have all the answers and that sometimes we (parents) really do have a great deal to offer in the way of insight into what our children can and cannot cope with then maybe, just maybe, things can begin to improve.

 

Somewhere in all of that was a quote about parents fighting for their children. We shouldn't have to fight for them, we should be partners in their education, full partners whose opinions are sought out, listened to, valued, respected and acted on!

 

(I swear a pig just flew past my window!)

[Zemanski]

I agree, some TAs are better than some SENcos, and some TAs make really good SENcos but I think it is the devaluing of the job itself that MW is talking about - it used to be an important senior management position and SENcos had influence, now it is not and many have little influence on policy and decision making.

 

One of our major problems with Com's school has been the failure of the SENco to change the way staff approach AS kids, specifically Com. Even when she agreed with us about what Com needed she could not get senior management to understand or act on her advice and teachers were basically ignoring her and being supported by senior management in this. One thing she said to me when we were trying to stop his form tutor applying the ehaviour policy completely inflexibly was that he was senior to her and so she could not tell him what to do

 

My friend, who is an excellent SENco, told me last night she has decided to quit the post (she has 2 other important coordination posts plus a class as well so she is pretty overloaded, like most primary teachers) because she is fed up of being ignored by other staff who either won't implement her advice or won't record things and then accused of not doing enough for her kids by parents and LEA. I would not be a senco just now for love nor money!

 

I think the solution is to have a good standard training package leading to a recognised qualification for all SENcos regardless of whether they are teachers or TAs and to reinstate them as members of the senior management team where they can actually influence what goes on in schools.

 

as for being partners in our children's education - I just saw a pig fly past my window too

 

Zemanski

[annie]

Phasmid/Zemanski,

 

I totally agree with your points on SENCOs. I used to work as an LSA with a child with ASD. The SENCO at the school had never been in contact with the child and it was pretty obvious that she had no knowledge of ASDs. I (being a mum to a son with Asperger's) was looked down on as somebody who didn't know what she was talking about whenever I made a suggestion to put strategies in place for the child, which I did anyway .This particular SENCO, at the child's annual review had the cheek to tell the parents that their child had come a long way due to the fact that SHE had a good understanding of ASD.

 

The SENCO at my son's ex-school was great until my son's behaviour became a problem, then we had to speak to senior management rather than the SENCO, yes my son's behaviour was a problem, but it was still a special needs issue, his needs were not being met, the SENCO had no say in the matter.

[oracle]

deleted

Edited November 3, 2006 by oracle

[Zemanski]

I agree, it was stronger than I expected and more focus on ASDs than I thought she would be allowed.

 

I really want to see what she says in her second sitting with the committee

 

Zemanski

[phasmid]

I think you're right about the de-valuation of the SENCo role as far as SMT are concerned zemanski. That can be the root cause of many of the problems we face in getting our children the provision they are entitled to get. Especialy when teachers pull the 'rank' card out and wave it around. But they cannot have it both ways! How can they complain that 'x' is causing them difficulties or is falling behind their peers and then decide not to use the stratergies put forward to help them (both of them that is)? That is sheer ######-minded ignorance of the highest order.

 

SENCo's should be on the SMT. They should have clout - whatever their status as regards QTS or not. If they have specialist knowledge it should be being disseminated AND put into practice. If not, why have them? Why bother doing anything? I would ask a reluctant teacher/senco one or two questions "If my child was yours, would you find what is going on acceptable?" and "Well, what would you do about it then?"

 

The system as it stands is much better than what we used to have. My research has shown me that. But it still has flaws. The problem comes down to money in a lot of cases. I am sure MW mentions this somewhere, that LEAs will try to get away with doing the least they can. Yes they have to ensure 'value for money' but, and I've said this before, they have a short term view of things. Their responsibilities start and end with compulsory education. Prior to that, and then after, its someone else's problem.

 

Whilst that approach/attitude remains little will change. It will take a major shift in things to get round that. It needs a proper joint approach between the health, social and education sectors to get the balance right. While they all work away in their own little kingdom without really talking to each other they all balme the others for the failures. So they end up butting heads when they do meet in some surreal power struggle. In the meantime our children suffer. The suggestions in Every Child Matters tried to address this. Instead of putting them into practice our politicans are still arguing over them...so the suffering goes on.

 

Carole - re your request, feel free.

[helenl53]

Same with me Carole - I have re-read and think that given that she was being questioned and was not rehearsed, that she did ok. Shame Blunkett pushed her out of the limelight on monday.

 

I would be interested in what other oral evidence they get.

 

Was it me being an optimist, but were the questions quite ASD centered (could be good for the reveiw).

 

Love

 

HelenL