NT friends of ASD children

[Flora]

Having two boys on the spectrum and in mainstream school, I've had a fair amount of NT boys over the years coming for tea and to play and for occasional sleep over. Apart from noticing how DS1's only friend is much more able when it comes to organising his stuff etc and is an unusually polite intelligent lad, it's DS2's friends that are the problem..taking into account that these kids don't have melt downs, learning difficulties and any of the other things that are part and parcel of ASD, I have to say that on the whole my children are far more polite and better behaved!

 

DS2 has two friends who regularly come to play. One of them treats me as if I'm invisible. He causes havoc and I've had to be firm with him a couple of times; once for spitting and another time for throwing toys out of the window (which infuriatingly DS2 latched onto and continued to do this for weeks). Each time it's as if I'm not there. When his mum comes to pick him up it takes half an hour before they leave because he totally ignores her too!

 

The other friend of DS2's is not much better. He does speak to me but is outright challenging. For instance today when I called all the kids to the table to come and eat their tea, all of mine came and sat down immediately but the friend didn't come down. I called him downstairs and he said 'no, I'm busy'... I had to ask him firmly to come down NOW. He did, but now they are having a chaotic tea time which is normally a very quiet chatty occasion. Maybe it's our fairly rigid routine which we have as the only way to keep things as calm as they usually are? Maybe it's the NT in these kids and they rebel against routine?

 

Just wondered if anyone else had noticed this with NT friends of their AS kids???

 

I know that these kids don't have the problems; like I said no meltdowns, no learning problems, no fights with LEAs and endless appointments and meetings. But give me my polite and routine loving boys any day of the week rather than exchange them for these authority challenging routine rebelling NT boys.

 

Flora

[Bagpuss]

flora, (sorry flo )

 

I've noticed with some of dd's friends that they are much more likely to back chat and obsess with boys/fashion etc. Overheard them swearing and sometimes treating our dd's possessions with a complete lack of respect...she stopped one particular friend playing with her hamster because she was so rough with it. Our dd seems so trusting and innocent in comparision to her friends.

[lil_me]

This is what I said to a friend of mine last week, my son in many ways is easier to deal with as he relies on routine, I know what to expect from him, I know what will make him go off on one 99% of the time, I know what he will and won't eat (unlike faddy NT kids) and other things like that, in many ways I find life easier. In my opinion kids need some sort of routine and rules, either that or it's chaos, ASD/NT or othewise, kids time and time again prove on countless occasions both on TV programmes and with people I meet that they need routines and boundries.

[bid]

Have to say my son has NT mates from his old mainstream school, and the 3 who have been coming to our house since they were 11 are all lovely <'>

 

Mind you, he also occasionally sees a few who have never been back here, so who knows what they are like!?

 

Bid

[Flora]

Bill's friend is fine, it's Ben's friends who are the little horrors!

 

It's not that I don't like them, it's just their unruliness, I find it quite alien which is ironic considering I have two boys on the spectrum... I think that's what I meant but I guess it did sound like I was making generalisations about NT's.

 

Just an observation

 

Flo' X

[summertime]

I do think that because asd kids thrive on routine and often very rule bound this does often make them more polite and compliant than some of the NT kids I work with who probably have very few rules and boundaries at home and often have very little regard for the ones they do have because they are not enforced.

 

I have however also seen a couple of asd kids who have no rules or boundaries at home and the results are catastrophic for everyone involved

[oracle]

The local shop keepers love my two sons with ASD they always comment to me how polite they are and how they never push in or try to queue jump. They also comment that they are probably the only two where we live that ever say please or thankyou and I think that speaks volumes.

 

If Matthew misbehaves I bring him in EVERY time. He gets a warning and then he's in. I get sick of the other parents with their empty threats. This spills over when their kids come into my house. I have never heard such cheek or disrespect, well at least with Matthew's friends. David's mates are older of course but have always behaved well around me. This is probaly why his best mate has been sleeping over here since he was 7 years old. In fact he used to move in during the six weeks hols. I would never ask any of Matthew's friends to sleep over because I could not stand it.

 

We recently went to a playscheme with Matthew who asked if two of his friends could attend with him. Never again. They were screaming in the car and would not shut up when asked to. I don't have this with Matthew and never had it with David.

 

I think in short what I am trying to say is give me my two any day ofthe week.

 

Oracle

[Karen A]

Hi this made me think of our holiday this year.After Ben had been rather blunt in his contribution to the wellcome meeting I explained to the rep that he has asperger syndrome and hence tact is not his strong point.At the time I thought it best to anticipate possible further social misshaps.After a few trips to the pool beside some of the other accomodation I decided the rep would wonder why I had said anything-some of the[ I can only presume] NT children were running wild with minimal supervision.However as we are aware of the potential for accidents /outbursts/over stimulation we must have appeared to be over anxious parents-both boys behaving well in comparison. Karen

[smallworld]

We're just back from a week in Portugal, we stayed in an apartment block where the children could only be described as 'feral'

we avoided the pool and went to the beach everyday, to avoid any problems caused by our 6 yr old's liking of shouting out 'YOU STUPID FAT PIG' to anyone and everyone

Why bother, the behaviour of these so-called NT kids was far worse ( although, admittedly not quite so eye-brow raising )

My daughter got it right when she named it 'chav city central', these kids were jumping in the pool at midnight, kicking footballs against the apartments at the same hour. Where were their parents ????

 

We really agonised about taking a holiday during the summer break and won't do it again, not cos our kids behaviour is too off the wall with the stress of the crowds, it was the other kids' behaviour that was outrageous

 

I was quite proud really of how our two boys behaved generally

but the behaviour of the brits abroad, if what I have seen this last week is typical, made me ashamed

Sorry, have gone slightly off topic here, but wanted to make the point that we all stress out over how our kids behave in public, and I'm beginning to realise that a lot of people don't have the same idea of 'acceptable behaviour'

 

wac

[Canopus]

My daughter got it right when she named it 'chav city central', these kids were jumping in the pool at midnight, kicking footballs against the apartments at the same hour. Where were their parents ????

 

Basildon by the beach and I don't mean Sarfend. You will probably get a lot more peace and quiet taking your next holiday at this resort in Essex. I have encountered numerous people who have taken holidays to some resort in Spain or Portugal and found the place infested with lager louts and their obnoxious kids from the worst council estates in Britain.

[TheNeil]

What I find most disturbing about all of this is that they really are the future. What is life going to be like in 10 years time? It won't be out of control kids but it'll then (even more than now) be out of control adults and woebetide anyone who tries to get between them and all the 'perks' of being an adult: alcohol, sex, credit cards, holidays, cars... They'll not bother about any of the 'dull' stuff like work, responsibility, social awareness etc. as that's 'someone else's problem'

 

Linking to my own topic slighlty, is it any wonder some of us don't want to bring kids into the world - what life are they going to have in a country like this? I really do feel sorry not only for 'decent' people but also the 'decent' kids (NT or ASD) who are going to have to live with this

Edited August 25, 2006 by TheNeil

[mrs phasmid]

In my opinion kids need some sort of routine and rules, either that or it's chaos, ASD/NT or othewise,

 

i have to agree here, i have found that what is good practice for our additional needs kids also applies generally to nt kids as well. all kids need guidance and boundaries with firm constant consequences in place from an early age.

 

we've been lucky in that phas jr tends to gravitate towards kids with 'good' behaviour because he prides himself on his 'high horse' stance and can't be bothered with kids who have no respect to others but demand it themselves. all phas jr friends are nt because he cant cope with the behaviour in others that he displays himself

 

the other 3 however is a different story and i often hear myself saying 'i dont care what x is allowed to do, he's not my child you are' to give an example phaslets had a 12 yr old friend over to sleep who wanted to watch love island and was most put out when i said no and explained that i dont find it appropriate viewing, mind you he respected that decision, although with a screwed up face, it was the phaslets who moaned and reckoned i'd showed them up. whenever their friends come here they are always respectful and polite, but when i've seen them talk with other friends its a different story and i suspect it may be the same for mine when they are with them out of my control so maybe peer pressure takes the blame here alot of the time.

 

all of mine went on do it 4 real holidays this year and all without fail came home shocked at the behaviour of others. the swearing,stealing, mickeytaking, lack of respect and general rudeness displayed to others was what worried them, not being away from home for the first time.

 

we live on a council estate in a council house and they all go to the local comp. my kids dont behave like that but i do worry that im storing up trouble for them in the future. will they be friendless because we have instilled manners,behaviour and morals into them or should i let them become one of the feral minority? because i for one refuse to believe that it is anything other than a minority, otherwise i might just go mad

[Canopus]

Neil

 

Read my article on demographics

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=4845

 

Why did it anger so many people?

[oracle]

Ohhhhhhhhh I missed this first time around and probably just as well. Why Sunderland Canopus - do you live here to? Now while I am the first to admit that we have some hell holes because we do, I live in the middle of a middle class area where I dare not even go to the corner shop after 5pm because of all of the nice middle class children hanging around drinking and making life hell.

 

The problem is not purely with working class parents or even those on the dole. In fact I will stick my neck out here and say that the problem is a double edged sword because the nice middle class children are latch key kids because both of their parents are working. We had kids living over the road to us, who have thankfully now moved, whose parents both worked. These kids had absolutely everything except parents who were there when they came home from school and during the six weeks holidays. To begin with Granny came and helped but as they got older they were left to it and there in lies the problem. Kids aged 11 plus don't just get on with it they get into trouble. These nice middle class parents would get soooooooooo angry if any of us dared to mention that the little darlings were anything less than that. Had Mummy or Daddy been home to look after the children and give them direction and a sense of right and wrong then I believe things would have been different. The problem lies with the parents no matter what class you are. Upper class kids are usually in the papers doing different things - like snorting coke or lap dancing.

 

I am not an idiot having been a Chair of Governors at a school in Sunderland who is in the ninth most deprived ward in the whole of the UK, where most of the parents are one parent none working. I seen first hand for a number of years what things are like. However 4 miles down the road at our top Comprehensive School in a very good area they dance on the graves in a local cemetary, while holding their parties there. I know all about our demographics in Sunderland having studied them in Common Purpose.

 

Parents in general are the problem not any sub section. But I firmly agree that in ten years time we will 'all' be living in fear.

 

Oracle

Edited August 25, 2006 by oracle

[TheNeil]

Neil

 

Read my article on demographics

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=4845

 

Why did it anger so many people?

 

I can see precisely where you're coming from with that and, while I can see why some people might get upset by some of your word choices, but the underlying message is, in my opinion, valid. That's not to say that everyone who comes from a council house (for example) is going to become a yob, chav etc. The biggest factor, again in my opinion, is parenting. If a child is led to believe that 'life' involves not working (or, more specifically, not wanting to work) then that becomes 'the norm' and it becomes very difficult to counter-act/unlearn that. The same goes with manners etc. Yes there are times when mum and/or dad can't work and have to rely on the state (or even charity) and this is exactly what the welfare state was setup for (and I'm more than happy to support it) but sensible and responsible parents need to make sure that their kids know this and that, instead of being 'exceptional', going to work and taking responsibility for your behaviour is, in fact, 'correct' (or should be).

 

Like it or not we do live in a society which is spiralling downward in terms of responsibility. I don't see this coming from the people who the welfare state is designed for but from those freeloaders who jump on the back of it and look for an easy ride (we've even mentioned in other threads on the forum the subject of people trying to get their kids diagnosed with ASDs just to claim the benefits). This then gets people questioning why they should work when the person next door (for example) doesn't? This is actually very valid as, especially in our society as it stands, there's little (or no) real incentive or advantage to going to work except in terms of 'pride', 'self-reliance' (i.e. the more 'esoteric' qualities that 'chavs' (and the like) seem to totally ignore and care not a jot about. Where is the disadvantage in being on the dole? I'm sure that I'm generalising (and I don't mean to cause any offence) but if you're out of work (and not through having to care for someone (for example)) then why should you have holidays? Why should you have a large screen TVs? Why should you...

 

It annoys me when I walk home on a night and see the council reglazing peoples houses, installing decking in gardens(!?!?!?) and replacing fences. I'd like decking in my garden and I'd like a new fence but I know that I'll have to work and save to do those things - no-one's going to give them to me for free. And when were things like decking and even garden fences even basic requirements? Then you look at the house next door, at those people who've obviously bought their council house and they're not getting free this and free that so how are they supposed to feel? They tried to better themselves and get onto the property ladder and the council/government, effectively, penalises them. And, just for completeness, most of the fenses that the council put up have now been torn down again by the grateful tenants.

 

If I buy something I look after it as I know that it cost me money and I worked hard for it. I take a pride in my things and know that if they get broken I'll have to fork out for a new one. If you get given everything then where does the pride/ownership go? Oh the fence got broken so...get the council to put a new one up. This though works in two ways. Firstly it stops people caring about what they own and, more importantly, it stops them from appreciating what other people have and treating it with respect. I know that I had to work hard to pay for my car so I look after it but I also respect the car next door (as well as most other cars) as it was no doubt paid for through hard work too. I know it might sound simplistic but I like to think that by being respectful to other people and their things, people will be the same back to me and mine.

 

If you get given everything rather than having to work hard and save for things, then why should you put yourself through that 'hardship'. No, far better to just complain and then get it for free, which not only annoys people who do work, but also drawing resources and funding away from those people who genuinely do need help and support.

 

Oh dear, I seem to have gone off on one and I apologise if I've upset anyone, missed the point, sounded like the daily mail etc.

[Jill]

Had to laff at how this topic has progressed. It is marvellous this site, it's like having access to loads of conversations all going off at the same time on different interesting topics.

 

Back to the original post, I'd never really noticed this until my sister commented.

 

She said "I know you do have tough times with The Boy, but sometimes I wish my boys (both NT) would take a leaf out of his book."

 

I looked at her in amazement, but then I watched.............

 

The Boy asked for some crisps and a drink, then he took them to the table and sat down to eat and drink.

Her boys helped themselves, then argued over who had what, then ran around eating & so spilt everywhere, then left half of what they'd got but went and got some more to open.

 

The Boy put any rubbish in a bin.

Her boys dropped it where they stood.

 

There's loads of things I noticed, all along these lines. It's not that my nephews are naughty per se (they're only 3 and 6 yrs old) it's just that The Boy seemed more, well, organised and tidy somehow IYKWIM.

[lancelot]

Similar comment to Jill's, from my brother-in-law last Chr*stmas (houseful of NT cousins plus C, age 9, AS):

'I look at five feral kids rampaging round the house, and then look at C, sitting quietly having a learned conversation about electronics, and I know which I'd rather spend time with!'

[Bagpuss]

I've often wondered if everything were down to parenting, how come some families have children who are lovely, polite, law abiding and hard working and one child who runs riot and goes completely off the rails? Yes, I do feel parenting plays a huge part in how a child turns out...but surely it comes down to more than that? Even within my own family and my dh's family we've been raised the same as our siblings yet have turned out to all have different values and made differing life choices to those siblings. My dh job involves dealing with these problem kids and whilst he does meet parents who's attitude is less than great, other parents are at the end of their tether and are in total despair about their child's behaviour......be they from upper class, middle class or lower class....he deals with them all. I've always been intrigued by how much of what a child does is down to parenting and how much of it is down to their character?

[lil_me]

I don't believe it is all down to the parents, there are other influences also, but I don't believe any child is born disrespectful etc. But in a lot of cases these influences can be encouraged or discouraged by parents.

 

Got plenty of the 'don't give a ****' parents live near me, like the 3 year old who was here all day and noone even checked where she was. A 10 year old who was crying at my door as his mother had gone to get drunk and left is teenage brother to look after him who also went to get drunk and locked him out and now he's the headache of the village, not much he's done to us or our property but had 4 people moaning about him just today. I see him miles away from home on his bike, he's not bothered and neither are his parents. What else is he mean't to do with himself when just left to roam about. Told to 'get out of my sight'. He's a great kid when kept occupied.

 

Class means nothing, I hate using the word but easier explained. A friend of mine would be definately what is called upper class and will openly admit her children are horrible 99% of the time, spoilt brats as she calls them. I've never seen so much disrespect to parents as when I met her 3.

[smallworld]

Re-reading this thread, I think I must add that I don't think the 'feral' children roaming the complex we were staying on were necessarily from "the worst council estates in Britain".

I do think though that their behaviour was typical of the 'en masse' teenager, and their younger hangers on.

I think as parents we do tend to think ' I wouldn't have done that when I was a kid' and we have to ask 'why not ?'

I think the main answer is because we didn't have any awareness of 'our rights' when we were kids, I remember quite clearly the first time I heard a child say to an adult "you can't do owt to me, it's against the law", that child is probably now a parent himself.

I don't see a pc clipping a child round the earhole as a solution, but the parental disregard for any authority IS passed onto their kids, and without an acceptable model of behaviour kids will believe they have the right to behave entirely as they wish.

This is not a topic I have concerned myself with since leaving teacher training, but now as a parent I feel I am being made to feel overly disicplinarian with my own kids when they are surrounded by such outlaws

perhaps I should go with the flow and let my tribe terrorise everyone

 

wac

[bramblebrae]

It's interesting to hear others points of view on all these subjects we are a very diverse bunch .

One point I'd like to make is even though a child or an adult for that is polite and well mannered to his elders and seems on the surface a little angel does not make it so.

For example The Dursleys Harry's guardians in the Harry Potter novels and films would be thought of as a nice middle class family and their son as a very respectful child to his elders by the wider community. Would you think of them as 'nice' people though, would you want to be friends with them? I don't care how much money someone has, where the live or how eloquently they speak you have to look into someones soul to see the goodness thats there everything else is immaterial. Even the perceived as lazy bone idle people who live off benefits for no apparent reason etc etc if you lived in there shoes for long enough I'm sure there would be reasons behind their behaviour just as we look for reasons behind our kids sometimes less than obvious behaviors, if that person isn't harming anyone else physically or emotionally then good luck to him.

 

just my 2 pence worth

 

take care

Lorraine

[CarolJ]

Having had a quick skim read through this thread , i think there is quite a bit of pigeonholing going on?

 

I dont blame parents or kids - i blame society, the "have gotta have NOW! credit consumerism, intensive targeting (brainwashing) by advertisers especially at younger audience, (ever sat an watched a kids TV channel?) the media, the greed driven by commercialism and capitalism, the selfish dont give a damn about anyone but myself.

 

This current mindset came about in the 1980s (Thank you Maggie Thatcher!) ).

 

I think the cost of living these days is why most parents both have to work.

 

Hey folks guess what we are the lucky ones!!!! - with our kids we got a lot more important things to thing about. After all the majority of us are not in a position to keep up the the Joneses. I often get the piteous "awwwwww you got it sooo bad, I dont know what i would do ..... " approach (sigh). Basically its [expletive] patronising to say the least. I am laughing at them. They are the ones who are under presssure, not me lol. I just concentrate on surviving day to day - and keeping my sanity. One of the things that has struck me about my own kids is their total innocence. Mind you my daughter is very money orientated and always ask for yet another Bratz poney .

 

Its watching channels like Nickledeon all the middle class american families who have credit cards, live in massive big houses, with everything a kid could possibly want but worry about being popular or having a zit on their nose

 

It absolutely carbunkle rubbish tosh total unreal representation of life (even for america i should imagine). Where are the soaps set in the Trailer park, where mum is on her own and Dad has a drink problem. Get real!!!!

 

In contrast look at CBBCs tracy beaker a kid in the "dumping ground" care home!. Its programes like this that take the edge of paying that extortionate licence fee!!

 

Yes Mr Post Office Enquires man Sir my 50 inch plasma is a black and white TV (wakes up)

 

Oh well will stop my rambling now. I dont judge anyone i am just glad that by virtue of my ASD kids I had no choice but to opt out of the Rat Race.

 

Heres to social isolation and oblivion

Edited September 7, 2006 by CarolJ