Dreading going back to school

[joanne1]

Ds is going back to school on Wednesday as he is excluded for the first 2 days. I am dreading it, more than words can say. He is constantly in trouble for behaviour and now they exclude him for everything. He never complains about going to school but I am anxious and stressed at the thought of it. It will be a day or 2 if I am lucky before something will happen. They are on the phone and I have to fetch him and then be told he is excluded for a day or two and they will let me know what they have decided 'but its not looking good'.

 

Does anyone have success in large secondary school? Does anyone have success in any secondary school?

 

It makes me feel ill, as it is a constant issue and I am so stressed all the time. It has got to where I don't even persue my own hobby anymore and feel I need to give it up as I can't do it enough. I am stuck by the phone waiting for the next call or waiting to see what is happening. He is excluded every other week and I feel like a prisoner in my own home.

 

Joanne

[NickyB]

Hi Joanne. Sorry, I don't have any advice I can offer, but wanted to let you know that you're not alone. I've been dropping references about school into the conversation today, and every time he says 'I don't want to go back to school'.

Can't wait

 

Hope all goes well for you

[purplehaze]

Hi Joanne, I am in this position, my sons behaviour has got worse each say this week and he keeps telling me he doesn't want to go back to school. I get phone calls at work and have to pick him up or just to tell me his behaviour isn't good.

 

I flinch every time my phone goes at work and everyone I work with hate calling me to the phone if it's the school.

 

My sons in a large Secondary school with a statement and failing and I don't know what the answer is.

 

Good luck for Wednesday-my son goes back tomorrow!!!!!!!

 

He hasn't eaten or drank, barely left his room all day and wouldn't even talk to the one friend he has when they have knocked 10 times today!!!!

 

I'm dreding it

[NickyB]

I flinch every time my phone goes at work and everyone I work with hate calling me to the phone if it's the school.

 

I'm dreding it

 

Oh, yes I know what you mean. I work at DSs school, in the kitchen, and my heart sinks when one of his teachers knocks on the door

 

Good luck to everyone for the first day back

 

[connieruff]

Is there any way he can finish his education at home? It sounds like our children just hate school, the bullying, the stress of trying to learn in an busy, loud, bustling environment which is so hard for them to cope with. It doesnt help that the teachers just do not know what they are dealing with - the knee jerk reaction of calling you - instead of trying to work out what the flash point for these children is.

My friend who was a teacher now has her 15 year old son at home doing GCSE via some scheme or other. I'm sure she said it helps if your child is statemented. It's worth looking into surely?

I can only imagine what hell Aspie children are going through now they know that school is only a few days away. Can you imagine how you would feel if your job made you feel so depressed and anxious? I feel so strongly that mainstream school is not the place for our special children. We have such a long way to go. My son is so happy when he is not at school, his hand flapping has increased, I used to think that this was a sign of anxiety but now I know that it is also a sign of great happiness, he is a different boy out of school.

Cx

[alexmum2]

Hi Joanne1

My son is dreading going back to school he was in tears tonight; and no I don't think there are any good secondary schools out there that can help our children but having said that I haven't had much experience with secondary schools that have special needs deptments; as my older children didn't have AS my problems started within the schools system when my son who does have AS started school; we have had nothing but problems from the teachers not listening to us, bullying thats never delt with, being put in classes with other kids who are disruptive and abusive just because I feel he has AS (my son is none of these) be made to do contact sports which he hates being laughted at because he cannot run as fast as every other kid the list goes on. I feel for you. Hopfully he doesn't have much longer at school my son is only in year 7

[Enid]

My son been very anxious tonight after a lovely holiday. To answer your question re school, No I havnt had any success with main stream secondary, he was excluded from primary age 11, and was out of school til he started main stream secondaary, it was a total failure, every day getting sent home, I used to feel sick if the phone went, Taking him out and getting him into special school was the best thing I ever did. They dont ring you at all, unless its serious, had one of those but the relief is immense. Enid

[lynne]

 

 

I know another child who accesses his education via the internet. I am sorry I don't know the name but he has to log in at set times to access a teacher doing science etc. I think they use a web cam has there is interaction with the teacher and students (as several students log in to the session). This child is doing his exams.

 

This kind of setting would suit our children very well, as all the pressures of school are coping are not needed. Yet the child can achieve acedemicly.

 

If you child is still getting excluded than the school are failing to provide the suitable environment or your child can not cope in that environment.

[Sally44]

My son covered himself with red ink spots last night to try to convince me that he was ill.

My son is now in an Enhanced Resource school. This is a mixture of mainstream and special needs children with ASDs. It is much better than his previous mainstream only school.

Secondary school I am dreading. There is one Enhanced Resource school in our area with 27 SEN places in total. I laughted when she told me! I think I was on the point of hysteria.

I also recently had a meeting with the Director of Commissioning services (including schools) in our LEA and told her that the feeling in our parent support group was that there were not enough ASD only schools for children. There seems to be mainstream or Special Ed, which usually means learning difficulties as well associated with lower IQ. There is a need for those schools, but those children who have typical IQ also need a SEN environment. There is also no evidence that inclusion works or that our children are included or even want to be. She told me that most parents want their child to go to a mainstream school - I could have climbed over the table and smacked her!! But I didn't.

Check all your local schools and find out which ones are Enhanced Resource for children with ASDs. In our LEA the booklets about school placements do not contain any information about which schools have expertise in ASDs - something I also pointed out to her. How are parents supposed to make informed decision if the information is not out there.

If your child does not have a Statement, you may still be able to move your child to an Enhanced Resource school as a mainstream pupil. If transport is needed you would have to take them yourself. But that school might be more able to meet the needs of a child as they already use the supports, strategies and therapies for children with ASD and communication problems. If your child does not have a Statement and they refuse him a mainstream place and there are places available, you may still be able to use disability discrimination laws if they refuse the placement on the grounds of behaviour or other learning difficulties or 'suspected ASDs' - but I can't guarantee that as I don't know individual circumstances.

Homeschooling is also an option, but I don't know if any child can be homeschooled.

If anyone has been refused an appropriate placement because 'there aren't any places left', then that is illegal. You may win a placement at tribunal if you have evidence of needs in reports from LEA/NHS or private professionals. Again the NAS can help you with the process. It isn't plain sailing, but it is possible, and many times the LEA cave in before the tribunal. They use blanket refusals of SA, Statements, Placements and provision as a way of testing to see if parents have the time and money to continue.

You can involve a solicitor if you want to. You can get private reports. You can go to tribunal on your own at no extra cost. If you fail once, you will know the system better and be better prepared for the second attempt. LEAs don't like tenancious parents. I know we shouldn't have to do this, but those that shout loudest and longest tend to get more.

For those on Income Support you may get Legal Help to cover the costs.

 

For those of you whose child is being frequently excluded, do they have a Statement? Do you know about the SEN process? You can go on courses run by the Parent Partnership and also the NAS about the SEN process and getting a Statement for your child.

This is only my knee jerk reaction, and obviously I don't know all your different stories, but if a child is regularly being excluded then isn't that a sign that the school may not be appropriate for their needs? And I apologise for anyone who has attempted to get a Statement and been turned down!

IPSEA can also give help and advice in these areas, as can the NAS.

For those families that have teenagers and who are carers to their children you can get Social Services to come and assess for both the child (good idea as they head towards adulthood - they can get adults to accompany them to the cinema etc), and carers can also get a Careers Assessment to see what SS can do to support the family eg. get someone to sit for their child for when they need to go out.

[Karen A]

Hi joanne.I know that a very good friend of mine who is a Forum member has had a rough ride in sorting out provision in a mainstream secondary school for her son in year 7.However things had improved last time I heard.

 

ACE provides some excellent advice on exclusions.It is worth making sure that all exclusions are documented as per the school policy.If your child is clocking up lots of fixed term exclusions then that is not considered good practice.LAs also look very badly on exclusions for children with documented SEN.Even for children who have support at School Action it is worth contacting the LA to notify them that your child has SEN and has been excluded on several occasions.

If your child has a Statement then it is really not good practice for them to be being excluded.

I will find the ACE link as it explains very clearly what to do if your child is excluded.They also operate an exclusion advice line.

It is worth appealing when your child is excluded.Even if the appeal is upheald the school will be aware that you are monitoring the situation.Karen.

[Karen A]

Hi again.The ACE web site appears to be down this morning.Here is the NAS information regarding exclusions which provides similar information.

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp...215&a=11085

The ACE helpline number is on the Education advice Forum page if you want to try phoning.

If I remember I will try ACE web site again later.Karen.

[Karen A]

http://www.ipsea.org.uk/exclusion-support-sheets.htm

 

The IPSEA site above is also very good.Specific sheets will enable you to find one that relates to your specific situation ,just work your way through the table.

The ACE number is also on the IPSEA web page.

There is also a number on this page that you can phone to request the ACE exclusion advice pack.Karen.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Karen A

[Karen A]

Hi All.I thought I would mention.Yes you can home educate.Several Forum members have decided on this option for various reasons and at various stages.

I have no experience myself but there is loads of information available.

There is a section in Education pinned section.

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=20380

This includes several useful organisations and places to find out more.Karen.

[Karen A]

The ACE site is back up now.The fixed term exclusion booklet is available on this page on PDF to download.

http://www.ace-ed.org.uk/advice-about-educ...from-school.htm

Karen.

[joanne1]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I know we all have problems at school but ds is on the verge of permanent exclusion. Although to be honest I don't think the school do enough for him, and his needs. Even now they just expect him to be like everyone else in school. I am going to ring parent patnership in a minute and see what they can tell me.

 

Karen A, When you say get in touch with LA. Do you mean our local council? Sorry for asking but I am not sure. If it is who do I ask to speak to? Please let me know.

 

I have tried to keep things on a 'friendly basis' with school but I can't carry on like this. We have a meeting on Wednesday morning to get him back into school. Should I be asking what strategies they are going put into place for him. Like their approach to him etc. I feel like they don't treat him how he needs to be treated and this causes or helps to cause his behaviour. They said they were now applying for a statement, this was 5 weeks ago. I filled my bit of the form in but up to the holidays I don't think they had done anything else. I need to know what they are doing because the situation can't go on the way it is. Since dx early March he gets one lesson a day in Learning support. He doesn't cope with school or lessons but he is then expected to go to all his lessons and be like everyone else. I feel like I need to say 'this isnt enough, its not working. In fact everything is the same as it was, apart from one lesson out'.

 

Joanne

[Sally44]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I know we all have problems at school but ds is on the verge of permanent exclusion. Although to be honest I don't think the school do enough for him, and his needs. Even now they just expect him to be like everyone else in school. I am going to ring parent patnership in a minute and see what they can tell me.

 

Karen A, When you say get in touch with LA. Do you mean our local council? Sorry for asking but I am not sure. If it is who do I ask to speak to? Please let me know.

 

I have tried to keep things on a 'friendly basis' with school but I can't carry on like this. We have a meeting on Wednesday morning to get him back into school. Should I be asking what strategies they are going put into place for him. Like their approach to him etc. I feel like they don't treat him how he needs to be treated and this causes or helps to cause his behaviour. They said they were now applying for a statement, this was 5 weeks ago. I filled my bit of the form in but up to the holidays I don't think they had done anything else. I need to know what they are doing because the situation can't go on the way it is. Since dx early March he gets one lesson a day in Learning support. He doesn't cope with school or lessons but he is then expected to go to all his lessons and be like everyone else. I feel like I need to say 'this isnt enough, its not working. In fact everything is the same as it was, apart from one lesson out'.

 

Joanne

 

As he is at risk of permanent exclusion then definately Parent Partnership should be involved to make sure that school follow the procedure. They have to provide evidence of how they are supporting his needs. You could ask for that in writing. If the LEA think school have not done enough they may turn down a request for a SA. At that stage you would want to go back to professionals involved with your son and ask them what their opinion is regarding placement. Also start looking round at other schools that you think would be appropriate and visit them. Talk to them about how they support their students. Ask if your son could get a placement. All schools have entry criteria, some based on curriculum levels. If you feel that a mainstream school, regardless of the level of support, is never going to understand his difficulties or meet his needs then be clear about that and say you want a mixed (mainstream and SEN) or SEN environment only. And visiting the different schools will give you a good idea of what is out there. Just because there are no places left does not stop you from asking for a placement at one of those schools. If you have evidence of need that suggests a certain type of school, then the LEA has to provide that environment. If you go to Tribunal the Panel can make an award forcing the LEA to make another SEN place. (Infact I found out that two of our SEN schools keep a SEN place available at all times - even when they say they are full - for tribunal cases where parents are requesting out of county or private school placements).

Make sure you also involve the National Autistic Society and/or IPSEA. They have educational advisors and tribunal helplines.

As part of the SA procedure school will be asked by the LEA to forward their report and you will receive copies of every report (eg. school/SALT and EP etc where applicable). But the whole process does take around 26 weeks. But use the PP at all meetings to make sure you are given correct information, and also ask them to take notes. My LEA told me a bunch of lies infront of the PP representative who then typed up the minutes, and also sent me a separate memo stating exactly what was said was not only wrong but illegal. I didn't find the PP proactive ie. they can't tell you what to do - they support parents in their decisions. But if you ask them direct questions they will tell you what you can do and what the school and LEA should be doing. You can also ask the PP to put you in contact with other parents within your LEA who have had similar experiences to you.

Does your son cope better during that one lesson where he is supported to a higher level? If so, and it all goes downhill when he has to go back into the mainstream classroom then that is evidence in itself. His level of needs are going to be constant throughout the day. To provide a higher level of support at one point and then none at all for the rest of the day is bizzare! You are within your rights to ask school which outside agencies they have invited into school to observe or assess your child and the difficulties they have in the classroom and what needs did they identify and what recommendations did they make on how school can meet those needs. You may find that school only spoke to an EP on the phone. You may find there is nothing in writing. But you can always phone the EP department and ask them to put something in writing to you about what was discussed and what they recommended. But always put your requests in writing as your letters are also evidence. As you are having a meeting, do you know exactly who will be attending? If you feel there are other professionals who have a good understanding of your son's difficulties you can ask for them to attend as well.

And school/professionals need to consider (a) what are his expressive and receptive language skills like. Could he follow lesson given verbally by the teacher. Could he process the information in real time or does he have language processing delays. Does he have problems with working memory, can he carry out 3 step verbal instructions etc. If he can't do one or any of these things he is going to struggle to know what he should be doing. Does he have learning difficulties (eg. dyslexia), writing difficulties, problems with executive functions. What are his social skills like? Can he ask for help if he doesn't understand. Can he initiate and sustain conversations, what are his social interaction and play skills like. Does he have any sensory issues. Does he need a workstation, does he have access to a quiet area he can go to, is the classroom highly decorated or noisy. An accumulation of difficulties is going to mean he gets totally frustrated if he cannot understand or cope in the classroom.

 

[Karen A]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I know we all have problems at school but ds is on the verge of permanent exclusion. Although to be honest I don't think the school do enough for him, and his needs. Even now they just expect him to be like everyone else in school. I am going to ring parent patnership in a minute and see what they can tell me.

 

Karen A, When you say get in touch with LA. Do you mean our local council? Sorry for asking but I am not sure. If it is who do I ask to speak to? Please let me know.

 

I have tried to keep things on a 'friendly basis' with school but I can't carry on like this. We have a meeting on Wednesday morning to get him back into school. Should I be asking what strategies they are going put into place for him. Like their approach to him etc. I feel like they don't treat him how he needs to be treated and this causes or helps to cause his behaviour. They said they were now applying for a statement, this was 5 weeks ago. I filled my bit of the form in but up to the holidays I don't think they had done anything else. I need to know what they are doing because the situation can't go on the way it is. Since dx early March he gets one lesson a day in Learning support. He doesn't cope with school or lessons but he is then expected to go to all his lessons and be like everyone else. I feel like I need to say 'this isnt enough, its not working. In fact everything is the same as it was, apart from one lesson out'.

 

Joanne

 

Hi again.Yes I mean the local council.They used to be the LEA but are part of Children's services [education] now.If you phone the local council offices and ask for the education department,there should be a named officer responsible for dealing with exclusions.I would have a chat with them and explain your situation.See what advice they are able to give.

 

My friend was in a similar situation to yourself.Her son was spending large parts of the day in learning support /whatever the official name is for the internal exclusion unit.She was able to obtain some support so it can be done. <'>

 

If it appears that permanent exclusion is on the cards it would certainly be worth phoning ACE for some advice.It is worth obtaining expert support.

However I think that they should be coming up with a plan for reintegration and to prevent further exclusions.

Do check through the ACE advice in the booklet.Ensure that school have followed all of the steps they should have done in terms of documenting exclusions in writing,giving you adequate notice and informing you regarding right to appeal.

If the school have not followed the currect procedure then it may be that the exclusion is not legal.This would place you ina stronger position re appeal so it is worth checking.

Also obtain coppies of the SEN [inclusion policy],the behviour policy and the complaints procedure.You should be able to obtain these from the school office.

Check that the school have acted in line with these policies.If not then that will also provide you with evidence to appeal.

You can request a Statutary Assessment as a parent yourself.There is a standard letter on the IPSEA web site that I will find for you.

 

How old is your son ? Does he have a diagnosis and if so what is it ?

Does your son currently have an IEP ? If so are you happy with it and is it up to date ? Is he on the SEN register at school ?

Sorry to ask lots of questions but it does make a difference re what is the best next step.

 

Do contact parent partnership and request support too.I have always found them very helpful and supportive.

However I think it worth saying that the experience of parent partnership amongst people on the Forum is very mixed.Parent Partnership are often not as independent of the local authority as they might be so please do not take it forgranted that they will be active in advocating for you.

Although the current situation is extremely stressful if you do apply for Statutary Assessment then at least the long list of fixed term exclusions will provided excellent evidence that the school are not able to support your child without external support.I know it is not huge consolation though.Karen.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Karen A

[Karen A]

http://www.ipsea.org.uk/sevenfixes.htm#RequestingAssessment

This is the link to the IPSEA site re requesting a Statutary Assessment of SEN.

 

DCSF web guidance gives examples of how to help pupils manage their behaviour.

It says pupils who have had several fixed period exclusions and are in danger of

permanent exclusion should have a Pastoral Support Programme (PSP).

This is taken from the ACE booklet.

The school should as this states be putting a pastoral support programme in place if your child has had several fixed term exclusions.

It would be worth reading through the booklet as there is also specific guidance re children with SEN.

SEN provision should be used alongside Pastoral Support Programmes or where a child has SEN it should be considered whether improved SEN provision might be more appropriate.

 

http://www.ace-ed.org.uk/advice-about-educ...mation-pack.htm

This link includes all of the information available in the ACE pack to down load.It may be useful if you find your child is excluded permanently and you need the information urgently.Have a look at the information re pastoral support programmes too as they may propose one at the meeting.Karen.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Karen A

[joanne1]

Hi Sally,

 

To answer your questions, yes he does cope when he is in learning support far better than in lessons. He has seen the ed psych twice. We have a report from the first time he saw ds. The meeting is to get him back in school, nothing formal. HT will be there, pastoral manager and deputy head. Ds has low IQ, so doesn't do too well in school. But then has never had any help all the way through school. He cannot carry out instructions if you give him more than one, and you have have to say it short and sweet. Dyspracsia was mentioned when dx but on that day was only dx with ASD. Writing skills are very poor for his age and he doesn't ask for help much I don't think. He doesn't have very good social skills, and when he does talk, more than often sounds abrubt, which doesn't go down too well. But that is just the way he talks. He doesn't like to be physically touched, we have to warn him if we are going to straighten his collar or something. If we don't he gets aggressive. This is why he is excluded, the teacher grabbed his phone from him and it caused chaos.

 

I have rang parent partnership and they are going to get someone to phone me.

You have to be statemented to get in our Enhanced resource schools apparently.

 

Joanne

[Karen A]

Hi Sally,

 

To answer your questions, yes he does cope when he is in learning support far better than in lessons. He has seen the ed psych twice. We have a report from the first time he saw ds. The meeting is to get him back in school, nothing formal. HT will be there, pastoral manager and deputy head. Ds has low IQ, so doesn't do too well in school. But then has never had any help all the way through school. He cannot carry out instructions if you give him more than one, and you have have to say it short and sweet. Dyspracsia was mentioned when dx but on that day was only dx with ASD. Writing skills are very poor for his age and he doesn't ask for help much I don't think. He doesn't have very good social skills, and when he does talk, more than often sounds abrubt, which doesn't go down too well. But that is just the way he talks. He doesn't like to be physically touched, we have to warn him if we are going to straighten his collar or something. If we don't he gets aggressive. This is why he is excluded, the teacher grabbed his phone from him and it caused chaos.

 

I have rang parent partnership and they are going to get someone to phone me.

You have to be statemented to get in our Enhanced resource schools apparently.

 

Joanne

 

Hi Joanne.Does your son have an IEP ? Does he have any support documented at all ?

If school have applied for a Statement then they should have something documented at School Action or School Action plus ? Karen.

 

[joanne1]

Hi Karen,

 

I have downloaded the ace pack, so will look at that later, and have had a look at the letter for applying for SA.

 

Ds is 13, doesn't have IEPs but has been on SEN for as long as I can remember. He is on school action+ for social and behavioural difficulties and emotional behaviour and difficulties. We were dx in March, with ASD.

I have rang parent partnership and they are going to get someone to phone me. School were supposed to be applying for statement as soon as we were dx. I filled my bit in, but as far as I am aware, up to the holidays they hadn't gone any further. LA are going to send me some info on applying myself, if school havn't. What do you think? I will ask tham on Wednesday if they have done it yet, but I expect they will say no.

 

Joanne

[Karen A]

Hi Karen,

 

I have downloaded the ace pack, so will look at that later, and have had a look at the letter for applying for SA.

 

Ds is 13, doesn't have IEPs but has been on SEN for as long as I can remember. He is on school action+ for social and behavioural difficulties and emotional behaviour and difficulties. We were dx in March, with ASD.

I have rang parent partnership and they are going to get someone to phone me. School were supposed to be applying for statement as soon as we were dx. I filled my bit in, but as far as I am aware, up to the holidays they hadn't gone any further. LA are going to send me some info on applying myself, if school havn't. What do you think? I will ask tham on Wednesday if they have done it yet, but I expect they will say no.

 

Joanne

 

I think I am shocked and rather cross for you to be completely honest.

If your son is on school action plus then he should have an IEP which should have been agreed with you.

If he has an ASDdx then the IEP should detail appropriate provision for ASD.It appears to me that the current provision relates to emotional and behavioural difficulties which is not specific to ASD.

The IEP needs a complete review in the light of the ASDdx.

Do you know if any support has been offered by Autism outreach ? They are specialist teachers and other staff who support children in mainstream schools ?

I think it may well be worth applying for a Statutary Assessment yourself .The fact that you have a recent dx ASD is helpful.

You may find that there are difficulties in obtaining a Statutary Assessment if school have not completed two sets of IEPS.These are usually needed as evidence that school have used all available delegated resources to provide support with little impact before the LA will agree to assess.However in your case the fact that your son is under threat of permanent exclusion and the recent dx will all be helpful evidence to support your case.

I certainly think it would be worth contacting the LA.Inform them that your son is under threat of permanent exclusion and has SEN and a recent ASDdx.The LA should be supporting the school in finding appropriate ways to prevent the paermanent exclusion.

 

I would strongly reccomend that you give ACE exclusion advice line a call.It sounds like they may well be able to give you specific advice.

If the school suggest a pastoral support programme it is worth being clear that you consider that your son has SEN,he has a recognised disability and you are requesting provision be put in place to support him rather than a PSP.

I think it is certainly worth obtaining some specialist advice from ACE.If school have been excluding your son for reasons which relate to his disability this could also be a case of disability discrimination.Karen.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Karen A

[joanne1]

Hi Joanne.Does your son have an IEP ? Does he have any support documented at all ?

If school have applied for a Statement then they should have something documented at School Action or School Action plus ? Karen.

 

 

I have posted a reply about him not having IEP. You must have missed it as you sent yours. They have always refused to do anything with him until dx. It has been a battle for a year and half. All I got was we cant give him help because if he does'nt get a dx it will have been a waste of time and funding, as we would have to take it off him. At the end of the day they have fobbed me off with a load of rubbish. They wouldn't apply for funding for him to get any help as we weren't dx. But i jave learnt on here you don't have to be dx to get help. I think they want him out so they put not a lot of effort in to him.

[Karen A]

I have posted a reply about him not having IEP. You must have missed it as you sent yours. They have always refused to do anything with him until dx. It has been a battle for a year and half. All I got was we cant give him help because if he does'nt get a dx it will have been a waste of time and funding, as we would have to take it off him. At the end of the day they have fobbed me off with a load of rubbish. They wouldn't apply for funding for him to get any help as we weren't dx. But i jave learnt on here you don't have to be dx to get help. I think they want him out so they put not a lot of effort in to him.

 

<'> <'> I think I just crossed posts with you.Karen.

 

[Sally44]

Hi Karen,

 

I have downloaded the ace pack, so will look at that later, and have had a look at the letter for applying for SA.

 

Ds is 13, doesn't have IEPs but has been on SEN for as long as I can remember. He is on school action+ for social and behavioural difficulties and emotional behaviour and difficulties. We were dx in March, with ASD.

I have rang parent partnership and they are going to get someone to phone me. School were supposed to be applying for statement as soon as we were dx. I filled my bit in, but as far as I am aware, up to the holidays they hadn't gone any further. LA are going to send me some info on applying myself, if school havn't. What do you think? I will ask tham on Wednesday if they have done it yet, but I expect they will say no.

 

Joanne

 

Correct me if I'm wrong everyone. But doesn't school action plus mean that school should be doing IEPs???

[Sally44]

Hi Sally,

 

To answer your questions, yes he does cope when he is in learning support far better than in lessons. He has seen the ed psych twice. We have a report from the first time he saw ds. The meeting is to get him back in school, nothing formal. HT will be there, pastoral manager and deputy head. Ds has low IQ, so doesn't do too well in school. But then has never had any help all the way through school. He cannot carry out instructions if you give him more than one, and you have have to say it short and sweet. Dyspracsia was mentioned when dx but on that day was only dx with ASD. Writing skills are very poor for his age and he doesn't ask for help much I don't think. He doesn't have very good social skills, and when he does talk, more than often sounds abrubt, which doesn't go down too well. But that is just the way he talks. He doesn't like to be physically touched, we have to warn him if we are going to straighten his collar or something. If we don't he gets aggressive. This is why he is excluded, the teacher grabbed his phone from him and it caused chaos.

 

I have rang parent partnership and they are going to get someone to phone me.

You have to be statemented to get in our Enhanced resource schools apparently.

 

Joanne

 

The difficulties you describe do not automatically mean low IQ. These are very typical difficulties associated with an ASD and also Sensory issues. A child with an ASD will get totally different results when tested for IQ if using verbal assessments and then non-verbal performance assessments. On percentiles, my son scored <1 (which means out of 100 children he scored worst than zero). On non understanding verbal instructions he scored 2. On non-verbal performance assessments he scored 93. See the difference? And that is because language is a difficulty as part of his diagnosis. It doesn't mean his IQ is low regardless of the difficulties he has. So my own sons cognitive ability is assessed as higher than average.

From your post it does sound like school are not doing what they should be doing. Ie. IEPs. At school action plus the EP is usually called in to assess. But after that, the school have a quota system for how many children the EP can see per term. That may mean that other children are being seen by the EP whilst yours isn't. And you need IEPs so that it is recorded what his targets are and whether he meets them. Every child has to make an average improvement over the academic year. If targets are not being set you have very little evidence of whether he is making progress or not or even regressing.

 

 

[Sally44]

And his tactile defensiveness is also quite typical. It is not unreasonable to warn a child with an ASD before you touch them. I have heard many instances of a teacher touching, placing their hand on the child's shoulder, reaching over them etc resulting in the child lashing out. He should be assessed by an OT who should then give advice to school about how to do things. My son had only a few instances at his primary school when he was around 6+. But I put in writing that due to his sensory issues, if school were not able or willing to put supports into place to meet his sensory differences, then he would be in no way responsible if he retaliated and hit a member of staff because they had done nothing to support him in this area. With sensory issues there can also be difficulties with multi tasking from a sensory point of view. So a child with an ASD might be totally focused on something and sudden unpredictable touch comes completely out of the blue. When focused they may be unaware of who is in their immediate environment, and frequently appear deaf. And it is difficult to get teachers/staff in mainstream school to understand that 'how they perceive sensation' is real to them. It doesn't matter if the touch, sound, smell, taste wouldn't bother you. They are not you. They perceive it differently and if they perceive it as pain, or it triggers a fight or flight reflex, that that is how the situation is.

I know i'm going off on a bit of a tangent now, but just look at this later on - I found some very good books by a woman called Olga Bogdashina. She has published three books. Sensory and Perceptual Differences in Autism and Aspergers, Theory of Mind and the triad of impairments, and one about language and communication with an ASD. All very good. She is from the Ukraine and runs a school for those on the spectrum. She gives seminars around the UK. Our AAT arranaged a talk for parents and professionals. When in the UK I believe she stays at the University of Birmingham. She has two children, one with AS and one with Autism. She is trained as a linguist. What she has to say is very interesting.

[Karen A]

Correct me if I'm wrong everyone. But doesn't school action plus mean that school should be doing IEPs???

 

Yes pretty much. Karen.

 

[Sally44]

I have posted a reply about him not having IEP. You must have missed it as you sent yours. They have always refused to do anything with him until dx. It has been a battle for a year and half. All I got was we cant give him help because if he does'nt get a dx it will have been a waste of time and funding, as we would have to take it off him. At the end of the day they have fobbed me off with a load of rubbish. They wouldn't apply for funding for him to get any help as we weren't dx. But i jave learnt on here you don't have to be dx to get help. I think they want him out so they put not a lot of effort in to him.

 

I also did not get any help in school for my son whilst he was getting a diagnosis - over 18 months, and he is definately not aspergers, he is autistic because he has severe language and communications problems. When the AAT did get involved she said she could come in without a diagnosis!!! However I also found out that she has around 200+ pupils on her books and she works alone, so that works out at approx one days input per child per year. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. But his needs were such that it was easy to prove that one day a year would not go anywhere near to meeting his needs in school, and was further evidence that he needed to be in an appropriate school environment.

You can phone the AAT and ask her how many children she looks after, and ask whether your school has contacted her yet.

 

School appear to have mislead you regarding funding. If a child is on SAP they should have IEPs. And the first 15 hours of support per week in school is supported through their budget already. So it is inaccurate to say they could support your child and then lose the funding. No they wouldn't because they are already receiving funding for 15 hours per week. They may not want to use that money on your child, but that is a different issue, and as he is at SAP they have acted incorrectly (to put it politely) to not already have IEPs for ALL of his difficulties.

 

As your son has a diagnosis now, I presume he was seen by SALT? What were their recommendations for supports in school regarding difficulties with understanding speech, following instructions, social interaction etc?

 

So, they should have sought outside agencies advice (eg. SALT/EP/AAT), and their recommendations should have been put into place ie. supports in the classroom and playground, and those would have amounted to up to 15 hours per week. When a child needs more support than that, that is the time you apply for a Statutory Assessment.

[Karen A]

I also did not get any help in school for my son whilst he was getting a diagnosis - over 18 months, and he is definately not aspergers, he is autistic because he has severe language and communications problems.

 

Sally.I think it may be worth checking the diagnostic criteria regarding the difference between High Functioning Autism and Asperger's Syndrome.

As a parent of a child with Asperger's syndrome I can asure you that my child does most certainly have severe social communication difficulties which impact all areas of his life.

The only difference between HFA and AS which is recognised by most professionals is the age at which speech develops.Children whos speech develops either in a normal way or are advanced are usually regarded as having AS.This distinction is open to debate and some people now consider that regarding all children or adults as having ASD might be more appropriate.

A significant proportion of Forum members have children with AS or have AS themselves.I do not think the suggestion that these individuals some how have less language and communication problems than if they happened to have a HFA dx will go down well. Karen.

 

[Karen A]

I also did not get any help in school for my son whilst he was getting a diagnosis - over 18 months, and he is definately not aspergers, he is autistic because he has severe language and communications problems. When the AAT did get involved she said she could come in without a diagnosis!!! However I also found out that she has around 200+ pupils on her books and she works alone, so that works out at approx one days input per child per year. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. But his needs were such that it was easy to prove that one day a year would not go anywhere near to meeting his needs in school, and was further evidence that he needed to be in an appropriate school environment.

You can phone the AAT and ask her how many children she looks after, and ask whether your school has contacted her yet.

 

School appear to have mislead you regarding funding. If a child is on SAP they should have IEPs. And the first 15 hours of support per week in school is supported through their budget already. So it is inaccurate to say they could support your child and then lose the funding. No they wouldn't because they are already receiving funding for 15 hours per week. They may not want to use that money on your child, but that is a different issue, and as he is at SAP they have acted incorrectly (to put it politely) to not already have IEPs for ALL of his difficulties.

 

As your son has a diagnosis now, I presume he was seen by SALT? What were their recommendations for supports in school regarding difficulties with understanding speech, following instructions, social interaction etc?

 

So, they should have sought outside agencies advice (eg. SALT/EP/AAT), and their recommendations should have been put into place ie. supports in the classroom and playground, and those would have amounted to up to 15 hours per week. When a child needs more support than that, that is the time you apply for a Statutory Assessment.

 

Sally.As I have said before in previous posts the level of provision that is funded by delegated funding is a matter of local council policy and funding that is proveded to local authorites by the government.The delegation of 15 hours per week may apply in your area but it is not a national agreement.

The whole difficulty with provision at school action plus is that there is no legal requirement for HTs to provide anything in terms of support.A HT could use all of the delegated funding for computers if it could be shown that that is what is needed to support IEPS for pupils at School Action and school action plus.

The requirement is to have an IEP and to be able to demonstrate what is being done to support the IEP.

By definition there cannot be a specific level of 15 hours per week.Children supported at school action and school action plus have widely differing needs.They will not all need 15 hours support.

Also as has being discussed at length in posts in the last few weeks.Schools recieve a certain amount of delegated funding which they then have to attempt to share amongst all children who recieve support at school action and school action plus.Schools that happen to have a large number of pupils with SEN do not automatically obtain more money.This is why Statements are so important.

Basically I do not agree with the suggestion that there is any case for suggesting that schools should be able to provide support from delegated funding up to 15 hours across the country.In any case I do not understand what the 15hours applies to....is it 15hours TA support or 15 hours specialist teaching ?

It is worth bearing in mind that Joannes son is a pupil at secondary school.I can appreciate to some extent that in primary school most children with ASD might be supported by TAs and the support might amount to 15 hours.In secondary school even with teenagers with AS the types of support and times when support is needed are likely to vary significantly.

Ben is going to secondary School in September.There are two boys at the school aleady that I know fairly well.Both boys have AS and both have Statements.All three have slightly different needs and require different levels of support in different subjects.

 

When requesting a Statutary Assessment it is my understanding that school should be able to demonstrate that they have used delegated resources to the maximimum of their ability and have used outside support where relevant to support provision at school action plus.

I think the 15 hour amount just confuses the issue.Ben obtained a Statement having had virtually no input at all becuase we were able to demonstrate that his needs were such that they could only be met by a Statement.He was also ar risk of exclusion.What is more it may be encouraging for Joanne to know that Ben did recieve support from ASD outreach documented in his Statement.Ben did not even have an AS dx then.Ben was only diagnosed a few months ago.

 

Sally.I am concerned because as I read your last post you appear to me to be suggesting that if school have not put in 15hours of support per week then Joanne should wait to apply for a Statutary Assessment

It is worth bearing in mind that Joannes son is under threat of exclusion and if he may not be in this school very much longer if urgent appropriate provision is not put in place.

Incidently the COP does include the provision for an urgent Statutary Assessment to be made even if previous intervention has not been put in place.I think it is recognised that the criteria for urgent assessment include cases where there is considered to be a serious risk of exclusion or disaffection.We were certainly supported by CAMHS in requesting a Statutary Assessment on that basis.Karen.

 

[Karen A]

Joanne .Hi.Just to say I hope the meeting is helpful today and is a step towards improving things. Karen.

[Mandapanda]

Sally

 

What's an AAT?

 

Thanks.

 

[Karen A]

Sally

 

What's an AAT?

 

Thanks.

 

Hi.I am not certain but I think AAT is the abbreviation for the specialist outreach teacher for ASD in Sally's area.I think from before it is what I call Autism Outreach Service or teacher . Karen.

 

[Kathryn]

AAT = autism advisory teacher, presumably - I'm sure Sally will be back to confirm.

 

Re 15 hours, delegated funding and statutory assessment, I don't want to sidetrack the thread but I think it is important to clarify what the law says. As Karen says, different LA's have their own policies regarding school funding for SEN support. LA's usually set their own local (little publicised) criteria for funding extra support, and many of them expect the school to fund a certain amount through their own budget (many seem to go for the magical 15 hours)before they will consider giving extra funding via a statement. Some LA's including my own, also have a system of top up funding for individual children who meet their criteria.

 

However, it must be stressed that the law does not require a child to have had a certain diagnosis or level of support before a statutory assessment is triggered, and is very clear that the individual child's needs must be paramount. Often LA's will tell parents "we don't fund statements for fewer than 15 hours/for children with "high incidence" needs such as AS/ for children who aren't working at at least 2 levels below their peers etc.... This amounts to a blanket policy and is unlawful. The only lawful criteria for a statement is that a school cannot meet the individual child's needs through its own resources and therefore the LA is responsible for arranging the SEN provision through a statement. Even with a statement, the LA may haev an agreement for the school and other agencies to fund some of the provision but the law is very clear that the LA remains ultimately responsible for the provision, whoever's wallet it comes out of. That is why a statement is an important safeguard.

 

Parents deciding when and how to go through the statementing process should always get objective and personal advice on their own situation from people with knowledge and experience of their local area with regard to SEN funding, support services available to schools and LA involvement with outside agencies such as he NHS. (policies can differ even within LA's). Although there is comfort in knowing that the law remains the same wherever you are and whatever lies you're told, it helps your case to know what you're up against, what kind of battle you will have to fight and what evidence you will need to demonstrate your child's needs.

 

Sorry for the digression Joanne - good luck for today.

 

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K x

Edited April 22, 2009 by Kathryn

[bid]

I also did not get any help in school for my son whilst he was getting a diagnosis - over 18 months, and he is definately not aspergers, he is autistic because he has severe language and communications problems.

 

Got to echo KarenA with this one.

 

AS is autism too and all people on the autism spectrum have varying degrees of language and communication problems

 

Bid

Edited April 22, 2009 by bid

[joanne1]

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks Karen for the good luck, I read it before we went but didn't have time to reply.

 

Parent partnership came with me this morning to the meeting, to clarify things abit and find out what is actually going to happen. Also to make sure that their Autism outreach was involved actively. I'm not sure senco liked it much though.

 

Heres the situation, He gets a lesson out a day as I have already said in learning support. I think it works out at about 6 hours a week. This is still happening. They have applied for taps funding for 12 hours TA support. Hopefully they should hear something soon as apparently they look at taps every week, I think its because its emergency funding. If we get that amount that will be better as in some lessons he will have someone there just for him.

 

When asked about autism outreach they didn't know if Ds had been seen, but he has. There has been no feedback from them, this was about 5 or 6 weeks ago. Autism outreach said ds needs alot of help and needs working with and was putting him as a priority case, because of behavioural difficulties and repeated exclusions. No one has heard anything since so parent partnership advised them to get in touch with her and find out what is happening. Apparently schools outreach only comes in occasionally, so I don't know what will happen with that. IMO if they need to work with DS, then do it! Lady from PP also said that outreach could help with getting the teachers together who teach him and giving them understanding on how to approach ds and manage him. School did say though that teachers won't use their lunch times or do it after school because they want to go home. I think sometimes the problem is that some teachers don't want to know. Ed psych did a seminar on Ds a year ago to show his teachers ways of dealing with him etc and 2 teachers turned up. Not alot when you consider it is secondary school and he has how many teachers teaching him.

 

For the first time today I havn't had 'We can't have children like this in our school, he has to behave.' Which was pleasing, I have to say. His pastoral manager said that his behaviour has esculated but she knows it is situations that trigger it. But also said that if she told some teachers how to approach him etc, it doesn't mean they will listen. It was nice to hear someone say it isn't all his fault. She did say to ds today that in lessons if something happens and he gets angry, to just walk out and go to her or learning support. So I hope he can do that as it will stop the disruptions in class. He is allowed to walk out and say nothing to the teacher if he is upset or angry.

 

I hope that they do get in touch with their autism outreach and work out strategies and things because that could make a difference if they put things in to place for him. Maybe they will now that I have taken someone in with me. It may get them to realise that things have change for him. Fingers crossed.

 

Joanne

[dana]

I am glad that the things started moving and that the school has started helping your ds (well at least a bit) after so much trouble! I hope they will do much more and very soon .

Good luck!

 

danaxxx

[Sally44]

You need to keep PP in place to help you make sure everything happens. You almost end up like 'project manager', but if you don't do it things don't get done, and time just goes by.

If, when everyone has tried, this still is not enough to meet his needs, then you might be looking at a different placement. And, although it isn't easy to get in writing that school has not been helpful, or they haven't attended training sessions - although it isn't obligatory, it is telling. So you could write a letter to (the EP for example) to the effect, thank you for organising the training day about ASDs to help teachers understand my sons needs. I am sorry to hear that only 2 out of xx teachers actually turned up, as this means that this opportunity for staff to learn about my son's difficulties has been missed.'

I did go through a similar thing at my son's previous school. And I don't want you to take this as just being negative, because your situation is different and it might all work. But the AAT was hardly ever there at my son's school, and school never received any written advice from the AAT, SALT or EP apart from their initial report at School Action Plus, and staff were resistant to any changes or different ways of doing things. It became obvious to me and eventually outside agencies as well, that he needed experienced teachers who had been teaching and working with children for ASDs for years, and that, in his current school, we would be waiting years to train up staff to a level that their knowledge would be effective.

So, I hope it does make a difference, but also bear in mind a reasonable timescale by which time you draw the line and say I have tried with this school for long enough!

[Sally44]

Got to echo KarenA with this one.

 

AS is autism too and all people on the autism spectrum have varying degrees of language and communication problems

 

Bid

 

I totally agree with that. But the DSM Criteria clearly states that those with Aspergers have typical language development (is it until age of 3) -and I have previously posted that I believe all those on the spectrum with autism, ASDs, AS etc have language and communication difficulties. What I was trying to get across was that my sons expressive and receptive language is severely affected to the extent that when he moved to his new school at age 7 they used PECS as well as language - I don't think a child with AS would be using PECS - but correct me if i'm wrong - and yet he still received no supports at all eventhough he could not make himself understood and couldn't follow a simple verbal instruction even when given directly to him. Yet I was still legally obliged to take him into school every day.