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ferferferflippin' fish oils

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Hi all -

I've just received my usual montly 'update' from a certain fish oil supplement manufacturer, and I'm getting more and more annoyed with the self congratulatory, condescending articles this bulletin always contains...

This months has a story about a boy who has made some really good advances in school over the past year or so 'THANKS TO'... this supplement. No mention of the boys hard work, or the parents hard work, or any strategies the school might have put in place, it is ALL thanks to this supplement.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the product; obviously the fact that I get a newsletter implies that I do see it as beneficial, but i have always been slightly sceptical about the claims that this is the ONLY supplement that can achieve these benefits. Up until now, I've been prepared to swallow (haha) the costs, and give them the benefit of the doubt, but I'm actually now reaching the point where the aggressive marketing is starting to get right up my nose...

 

I'm in the process of testing alternative products on my son, to see if there is any observable difference. In the meantime, anyone elses experiences would be of great interest... If anyone knows of alternative GENERIC brands that have similar ratios of HFA/EPA to those that are claimed to be most beneficial, that would be GREATLY interesting ;)

L&P&Fishoils

BD :lol:

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baddad. Without knowing which brand you are using I can't tell you whether the brand I'm using is cheaper or better ;) . I order mine off the internet because you can only get them by mail order. I'm not entirely convinced one way or another if they've made a difference. I know when we first started with them his teacher said he was 'less spacey'... I think though I'm giving them more out of habit now than anything. We do get weird packaging and loads of 'annoying articles' sent with them; I use them for lighting the fire :P The packaging is stuffed full of recycled paper padding and makes great kindling :thumbs:

 

If you want to know what they are, let me know!!!

 

Lauren

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I'd like to know which ones either of you get if its okay? My consultant suggested we start giving them to L but the only ones I know about are Eye-Q and I see lots of stuff on the shelves but dont know exactly which I should pick!!

 

Lynne

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baddad

 

There was YET another article in the paper about them today. What confused me was they were saying what a difference it makes to very young children and had a case study of a boy who has been on fish oil tablets for a year and seems to have stopped having so many tantrums. He's three now - SO that means he started taking fish oils at two years old and was having alot of tantrums - now he's three he isn't having so many. As you rightly say there is no mention of any other strategies being used - also isn't there something called 'the terrible twos'?

 

We all know children who never grow out of this stage but I also know alot who do - SO couldn't it just be possible that the child has 'grown out' of this behaviour naturally rather than it being due to the wonders of fish oils!

 

I'm not saying that they can't work, but like you, I get a little fed up by just how WONDROUS the manufacturerr say they are for absolutely everyone.

 

Barefoot

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I know the product baddad is talking about and it did make a noticeable difference to my son. We started him on them without telling anyone and within days we had rave reviews from school and the bus escort asked me what we'd done that was different. Even my next door neighbour who only sees him getting on and off the bus said how much better he was. All unprompted by me.

 

If it works for you, great. If not, move on. At least you are aware of something that may help.

 

It was attention deficit symptoms (and his were SEVERE) that were helped the most for us. I think is where this product's strength lies.

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I don't believe its just a case of what you take, like fish oils or any other supplement to get essential fats. It can be a case of what you don't take, or don't eat.

 

Eating damaged fats (trans fats found in margarines, processed cooking oils, partially hydrogenateds, processed foods such as crisps etc etc) damages essential fatty acids within the body. Its too much info to post here but a little quote from Udo Erasmus book "Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill" is "....trans fatty acids disrupt the vital functions of the EFAs. They worsen EFA deficiency by interfering with the enzyme systems that transform fatty acids into highly unsaturated fatty acid derivatives found especially concentrated in our brain, sense organs, adrenals and testes....." (So may potentially be involved with conditions concerning brain functioning and sensory problems? Adrenals (stress?) and testes... (mainly males?) :blink:

 

So the more damaged fats we eat, then the less chance the fish oils have of working, or the higher the dose required maybe? :unsure:

 

A nice cheap supplement is to use seeds to get good fats, there's a blend of different ones to give a good mix, you refridgerate to keep them fresh, and grind in a coffee grinder (mine was a quid at a car boot sale) when you need them. A small amount can then be mixed in cereal, yoghurt etc.

 

I've found that by removing the damaged fats, adding a cheap ground seed mix, if a child will eat oily fish a couple of times a week then you might eventually be able to drop the fish oil supplements completely. If not, you could give them a couple of times a week, or at least reduce the dose. :rolleyes:

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The quantity of fish oil that helps my son is equivalent to eating a tin of sardines at every meal. I don't want him to have that much mercury going into his system.

 

He has a metabollic imbalance, not poor diet. It's not as if someone can wean themselves off insulin if they're a Type A diabetic, although for other types a change of diet is all that's required.

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I know the product baddad is talking about and it did make a noticeable difference to my son. We started him on them without telling anyone and within days we had rave reviews from school and the bus escort asked me what we'd done that was different. Even my next door neighbour who only sees him getting on and off the bus said how much better he was. All unprompted by me.

 

If it works for you, great. If not, move on. At least you are aware of something that may help.

 

It was attention deficit symptoms (and his were SEVERE) that were helped the most for us. I think is where this product's strength lies.

Hi jaded -

no disagreement here... as i've already said, I don't doubt at all that the supplements been helpful to Ben, Ive seen it. What i do wonder, though, is whether this particular manufacturer's claims that THEIR product is the only one that can offer these sorts of benefits stand up to scrutiny? The fact that school trials have been done on their product doesn't necessarily show that to be the case - it only goes to show that they have been more willing to DONATE their product for the tests to be carried out, and that's good marketing, not good science!

My interest is whether others are seeing benefits using other generic fish oils that cost a fraction of the price, and/or whether any trials have been done using alternative brands/combinations... again, measuring their product against a PLACEBO doesn't count; they've got to head to head against a genuine alternative to convince me!

One thing that surprises me about your own post is your experience that benefits were immediately observable. This belies the manufacturer's own claim that a VERY EXPENSIVE and PROFITABLE 'dosing up' period is required of around 3 months at 3 times the average daily doseage. My own experience was similar to yours too (around 3-4 days), so if the manufacturer's info on THAT is misleading why should i take their word on the other stuff?

I dunno, perhaps I'm just cynical, but the fact is I am getting sick and tired of this manufacturer taking credit for the achievements of kids who are on the supplements... The supplement did help with Ben's concentration, I've no doubt, but he still has huge problems in this area and the advances he's made have been after HUGE efforts from him and from myself, and with the support of the school and others in his network... WE created the envoronment in which the fish oil could help, not the other way around.

In a nutshell, my problem is with the aggressive marketing, not the product - but at this stage there's not enough info available from other places for me to challenge that marketing. I DO NOT trust ANY manufacturer within the 'drug' (yes, i know that's not strictly the right term, but it is to all intents and purposes the same market place) industry, because they have generally been shown to be lying, cheating, manipulative ba*****s who will do anything to increase their own profit margins and create monopolies for themselves - often with the full support and backing of the governments/politicians whos coffers they so richly swell!

FWIW, Ben has been taken a different supplement for around a week now - one that is far cheaper and doesn't contain the 'other' ingredient that has been implicated by some as a trigger for increased stimming. i haven't seen any change so far, either positive or negative, but I'll keep you posted...

In the meantime, if anyone who knows of an alternative product that shares the same properties (ratio's EFA to EPA), I'd really like to rule that bit of (COD? :lol::devil::whistle: ) science out of the equation!

Llaverty - with regard to your 'which one' dilema - the Equazen product is called 'Eye Q' and is a blend of fish oils (With a unique ratio of EPA/EFA!) and evening primrose oil - the latter of which has been implicated by some as having a negative effect on children with ASD's. The Equazen brand does do a wide range of other supplements, but if it's got 'EyeQ' on it it should be the fish/primrose oil blend. Hope that helps

L&P

BD

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Couple of things and then I must do some work.

 

They are more than a little smug in their greatness and I agree 100% about all you say on the drugs industry and marketing tools. I did think their newsletter was OTT this time. I'm not sure I would get a child of mine to draw the company Christmas card. Adam Kelliher is one smart cookie. I had a long email correspondence with him about four years ago and he went out of his way to answer me regarding the source of the fish used and some other questions.

 

It's definitely not the brand but the ratio of EPA/DHA which does it for my son. I've been on trips to the US and brought back various different brands, and test out other brands for a while. MorEPA was just as effective. Efalex nowhere near so. Tesco own brand was excellent. We took him off all fish oils one summer holiday and the decline was very gradual, but the attention span came back as soon as we started him up again.

 

The reason we use Eye Q is because my son doesn't do capsules or citrus. I got fed up getting squirted in the eye with stinky fish oil as I snipped the capsules open, so when the vanilla liquid came along :notworthy:

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and evening primrose oil - the latter of which has been implicated by some as having a negative effect on children with ASD's.

 

Baddad,

 

do you have any more info on this? I've tried Eye-Q on my son several times and each time it's been associalted with worsening sleep at night, crying out and waking distressed or insomnia. I wondere dif it was the EPO that was responsible as thought I'd read about EPO causing insomnia somewhere else before. It's a shame as I think his concetration improved on Eye-Q but I couldn't stand the broken nights especialy as I have a baby who isn't the worlds greatest sleepr!

 

Liz x

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hi there, i havnt been hedging my bets so all my three kids have been having clever milk daily, omega 3 supliments and a vitality yoghurt drink with added omega 3 for the past 2 weeks. now for the interesting bit. i have one child with adhd/asd shes worse if anything, school have been reporting disruptive behaviour, non stop chatting, refusal to work with other children or participate in lessons. at home her behaviour has been eratic and boistrous. my youngest boy suspected asd no effect one way or another as yet, no postive no negitive. my eldest boy nt has reported since taking the additional supliments of omega 3 things keep "popping into his head" now i find that weird! i am keeping on with this all because if only to prove a point. i think these things helpsome maybe, but not all. however i am very very sceptical!

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This is what MorEPA contains

 

Capsule Size: 1000mg

Type of Capsule: Fish Gelatin

Serving Size: 1- 2 per day

A 1 capsule serving provides 580mg of EPA**

Number of servings per bottle: 60 @ 1 per day

Content per 1000mg Capsule**:

EPA Omega 3 content:

580mg

DHA Omega 3 content:

88mg

GLA Omega 6 content:

0mg

 

 

This is what's in Eye Q

 

 

Each capsule contains

Natural Fish oil 400mg

Equivalent to:

Omega-3 marine triglycerides 120mg

Eicosapentaenoic Acid (EPA) 92mg

Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) 29mg

Evening primrose oil 100mg

Equivalent to:

Gamma Linolenic Acid (GLA) 10mg

d-alpha-tocopherol acetate (vitamin E) 1.6mg

 

 

You're looking for at least 3:1 EPA to DHA as recommended by Alex Richardson.

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Tesco own brand was excellent

Hmmm, funny you should say that, 'cos guess what the 'new' one I'm trying is? Thing is, according to the label the EPA ratio is nowhere near high enough(?)

MorEPA - where'd you get it? Is it cheaper? Are they as annoyingly aggressive/smug with their marketing?

 

Now, having dug out the newsletter to check my facts I found something else that annoyed me, and, to cut a long story short, I've saddled up that ol' high horse of mine, given him a jab with the spurs and galloped into battle via the telephone...

The bit that annoyed me:

The publication of the Durham trial data proved without doubt that eye q was the only omega oil formulation a parent could trust... (My italics)

 

Basically, I've asked them to tell me how the Durham trial has shown this... they're going to call me back at some point. I'll keep you posted. I think if I was on the board of (i.e.) Seven Seas I'd want that 'can trust' bit clarified...

L&P

Deputy dawg ;):lol:

Liz - the major possible side effect I've heard mentioned against Evening Primrose Oil is increased stimming... Nothing directly to indicate insomnia, but if stimming implies raised levels of stress (as some people think) then by extension sleep patterns could be disrupted (?) dunno, but i hope that helps...

L&P

BD :D

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So I should maybe go with morEPA to start with then? Not sure if I should try EyeQ if it does run the risk of increased stimming etc as Logan is already fairly bad!

 

Can I buy them online?

 

Lynne

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Hmmm looks like Tesco has changed. It used to be very similar to Eye Q in content.

 

Llaverty when we started my boy his school did report him as slightly more difficult to settle to a task, but great attention when he did. I took that as a greater interest in what's going on around him (ever the optimist). I changed the time of day I was giving the bulk of it to him to just as he came off the school bus and it was fine. He was 'climbing the walls' hyper before.

 

Alex Richardson is part of Food & Behaviour Research. You can read more here:

 

http://www.fabresearch.org/view_item.aspx?...91&list_index=9

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I too got the promotional material through the post! I was just going to unsubscribe from their list :lol:

 

My son uses IQ smooth, which appears to have different levels again than the capsuals.

 

EPA 275mg

DHA 100mg

GLA 31mg

Vit E 3.2mg

 

I opened one the other day and it had separated, so I rang them and was assurred that it would not be affected and I told them my son would not take the "oil" bit that had separated. She told me to shake it.... it exploded all across the kitchen floor :o So she sent me TWO replacement boxes of 30 sachets, that's �30 worth! I usually go to Boots and get 3 for 2 but I won't need to go for a while.

 

The only reason she sent them was because I was already on their database, so there is one good reason for putting up with their mailings!

Edited by invent 10 things b4 breakfast

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Darky,

 

Could you have "confounded" your experiment? If a child is, potentially, "made worse" by anything with casein in it (ie dairy products) then buying products with considerable amounts of casin in might well cause ill effects, despite supposedly being "good" because of their EFA content?

 

Perhaps you could try again with a more "pure" product for the fish oils?

 

I use MorEPA from "Healthy and Essential". We too saw improvements within the first two weeks of using these products, particularly in attention, and notice, even now, a difference if we drop them.

 

VS xx

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Hi,

Does MorEPA have primrose oil in it?

 

I tried ds on eye-q and it sent him hyper. It built up over a week. So the first few days he seemed fine and by day 7 he couldn't sit still. It wore me out watching him. Initially I didn't click it was the eye-q as I thought this is meant to help with concentration, not send a child hyper. So I stopped it, within a couple of days he calmed down, back to his usual self. I couldn't believe it was the eye-q so tied it again with the same effect.

 

I brought some Efalex but instead gave it to my NT DD as I didn't want to send DS hyper again.

At the moment he's on Omega 3, but I've noticed no difference with him. Even when I took him off it for a week as I'd forgotten to take it away with me. SO I was looking for something else to try him on.

 

pim

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Hi Pim,

 

Looking at the (miniscule) print on the container, MorEPA does not appear to contain any Evening Primrose Oil. Suggest you phone "Healthy and Essential" on 08700 53 6000 or e-mail on info@healthyandessential.com to confirm though... don't just take my word for it... just in case.

 

VS xx

 

ps I'd always suggest checking with your healthcare provider before starting any supplement, especially as your child might be affected in a way that you would not wish. Then do remember to tell anyone involved with the child exactly which supplements and how much he is on. This may be important when considering things like drug interactions, pre-op info etc etc. Better to be conservative in treating these "supplements" with respect? I, for example, even tell the dentist that my boys are on x, y and z... Sometimes, too, you'd be surprised what these people have to "add" to the story.

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Only me!!

 

Hi all - After reading Jaded's post re TESCO own brand, I had another check this w/e. Good news - their OMEGA 3 pure fish oil capsules have almost identical ratios of EPA/DHA as EyeQ, but minus the Evening Primrose oil! Daft beggar that I am, I'd originally bought the wrong ones (cod-liver). Will keep you informed, but suspect Ben will be fine on these...

Only downside is that they are a larger 'one a day' capsule, which i know will be a problem for some kids, but maybe they do a smaller one too(?) Will looksee next time. No phonecall yet from equazen to explain why theirs are the only 'trustworthy' brand, but early days...

L&P

BD :D

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Only downside is that they are a larger 'one a day' capsule,

 

What my mother calls horse pills. Mmmm lovely fishy burps.

 

I'm waiting to hear what equazen have to say.

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My son has Asperger Syndrome, plus ADHD, and is incredibly hyperactive.

 

I tried him on Efalex for 4 months with no effect, but then read up about the different levels of EPA/DHA etc in the oils. I then tried Eye Q, and he's now been on it for 3 years. He is visibly calmer, and his concentration improved. We have had no sleepless nights with it at all. It doesn't seem to affect him at night. He takes 3 capsules in the morning, and 3 in the evening. I get them in Boots on 3 for 2.

 

I read something recently about Omega 6 and 9 being needed as well as 3. Has anyone else come across this?

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i get very confused with all the omega numbers!im going to try steve on the tescos brand,i hope it works by monday though,im at the end of my tether,im going to complain to the manufactures if it dont!!

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In general terms 'everybody' needs Omega 3, 6 and 9.

 

There seems to be a problem with the metabolism of people with ASD/ADHD in that they're not getting the Omega 3. EPA-type Omega 3 is in its optimum form so that the body (the brain) can make use of it without any other processes being involved.

 

Evening Primrose Oil is Omega 6 and that seems to be an irritant for some children. I haven't read anything which tells me why this would be.

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Dear Baddad

Have you put together some sort of chart/spread sheet looking at the contents of the fish oil supplements that you have looked into?

Regards

L

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Dear Baddad

Have you put together some sort of chart/spread sheet looking at the contents of the fish oil supplements that you have looked into?

Regards

L

 

 

Have i what?? Thanks for the vote of confidence, L, but if it's that hard i don't get it :lol::lol:

What I can say is that Ben has been fine with the Tesco ones, if that's any help...

C.M.J. might be able to help - she's EVER so clever about stuff like that!

L&P

BD :D

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That's an interesting piece Hailey. Has he overlooked the fact that trans fatty acids (bad fats) prevent the body from making use of the Omega 3 and 6 (good fats), so have to be taken out of the diet for the fish oils to work? He's also not an expert in autism. We're not talking about mainstream nutrition problems in autistic children but real differences in how their bodies function when compared to 'normal' so although what he is saying is very true for most of the population, he just seems slightly off the mark from my perspective.

 

FWIW we had a very healthy Mediterranean diet (because Mr J is from the Med!) before we did fish oils and my son did make noticeable and sustained progress once the oils were introduced.

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