Irresponsible behaviour

[curra]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm really struggling with my DS's changes from child to teen. He has stopped doing homework completely and he's not concerned about his progress at school, then he blames me for not reminding him, but if I do he shouts and covers his ears. He refused today to go to his counselling appt and when I said I would go to give an explanation he locked me in for 15 min, then he let me out but by the time I got there the counsellor was already gone. I felt like a bad mum breeding a totally irresponsible son. Apart from things like these, he's not interested in learning anymore, after being a real brainy boy who lectured everyone (until he was 12). My reaction to him locking me in was staying calm, being firm and explaining him why his behaviour needs to improve. He didn't seem to care a hoot. Last week I attended a session for parents of AS children at CAHMS, and though it was OK, I felt that it was aimed at NT kids. The ideas the monitor gave us just don't not work with my DS. I don't know where to find support anymore. Could it be that I am not managing him well and he's just a cheeky teenager? What do you think? My DS is 13 and taller than me, so he feels that he's in control at home.

 

Curra

[Platefull of Love]

<'> <'> . I know the feelling to <'>

[oracle]

<'> <'> It's not you really it's not. The teen years are the worst or at least they were for us with David. I remember sitting crying on his 16th Birthday wondering where he had gone The good news is he did return This is probably a really stupid question but are have the CAMHS team specifically trained to give advice on AS teenage behaviour? I would really want to know the answer to this question - don't just asume that they have.

 

I am on my way out to Boys Brigade soon but I will pm you later about what we went through.

 

Oracle

[jb1964]

Curra,

 

Same here - my daughter's 13 - and put AS, hormones/puberty all together and it is a nightmare - I know all children are different but CAHMS told us that from 11-16 (taking into account the move from primary to secondary as well) is the hardest.

 

We had CAHMS visiting every fortnight for over a year with my daughter (til this summer) to try and coach her on self-awareness etc (because she'd only just been diagnosed). Our CAHMS have two units - under 11 and the adolescent unit for over 11yrs (which she was from) - while she was visiting a few times my daughter had a complete meltdown while she was here - sometimes lasting the full hour, she talked me through loads of advice and suggestions and none worked which she saw with her own eyes - she said that they are trained in so much yet she couldn't help and said she felt totally helpless.

 

Chin up,

Take care,

Jb

[oracle]

I can't really add anything more to what Jb has said. No matter how much they 'know' it's not always enough to help us or our children. It got to the point where I was keeping appointments without David and they were coaching me. They were fine for me to do this and I would then work with David. The key really is self-awarness. However sadly their hormones often get in the way and it can be difficult to make progress. David was also a late dx unlike Matthew who got his aged 3. We have been working on self awareness with him from the very begining. I would like to think that this will make a difference when he begins puberty but I am not holding my breath.

 

Oracle

[Paula]

<'> <'> <'>

 

My son is 12 and were going through a similar thing.Like someone said its aspergers and hormones and its a nightmare.Ill be glad when its passed.

[curra]

Thanks All of you for replying. <'>

 

Some of the strategies that were recommended are:

- No means no.If you give in you'll undermine your authority. The problem I have with this (though I really am firm with him and most of the time don't back down) is that M's anger can escalate and a small thing grows to a disproportionate outburst.

- Take control of the symptom, for example saying " Please don't eat your dinner, then I can have your ice-cream". M doesn't see the irony or the humour in it, he would still not eat his dinner and say that I'm a bad mother because I don't encourage him to eat and want to take away his ice-cream.

- Make it the child's problem, for instance if he doesn't want to do his homework just say "I thought you wanted to use the PC later". This has worked sometimes, but if he's too tired or stressed to do his homework, he just says, "I don't care, punish me if you want but I won't do it". Then I realise that it's not so much that he doesn't want to do it, he can't. I find it extremely difficult to know when he doesn't want to do something or he can't do it. I find myself at times having to back down after a warning. (Bad strategy). If I make it M's problem not to take a shower, he'd say "Fine, I'll take a shower when I go out," which is only to school, so he could stay unwashed for a whole week or longer if I let him.

- Give the child choices, for example, saying "You can either go on swearing or you can lose 10p from your swear box money". I use this type of strategy a lot, but I have to say that M doesn't make the expected choice all the time. If he can't control himself, he'll just go on doing the negative action and say that he doesn't care about the ##### 10 p. Later he gets angry at me for taking away 10p from his box and on top of it he doesn't see the connection to what he did!

- The strategy recommended for bedwetting is to reward the child for bedwetting!! The idea is that the child will want to be in control and then they won't wet the bed. I daren't try this one with M. He'll take it completeley literally and keep bedwetting for ever.

There are other strategies that they recommended but I can't use any of them apart from staying calm, avoid confrontation, be fair and give him time and space to cool down.

I don't know what else to do when he wants to be in control of a situation that causes him anxiety and he locks me in, takes away my keys and disconnects the phone I'm not afraid of him but I do fear that he might grow up to be an abusive man and I feel so helpless.

Oracle and jb, how can you teach them self-awareness? This is something that M lacks completely and my nagging about things is not working. I wish someone could coach me but I don't think that in my small town people know much about ASD

 

Lots of <'> <'> <'> and endurance during the teen years (they are only 7 ... ) Take care

 

Curra

[jb1964]

Hi Curra,

 

Regarding the strategies you've been told - for us personally I think really the only one I'd agree with is 'no meaning no' - although I know how hard this is too and will admit there has been occasions where I've backed down simply because at that particular time I really couldn't handle the aggression and hurting.

 

Rewards or punishment have never done anything for my daughter - nothing could possibly make her do something that she doesn't want to do - not a million pounds.

 

Choices are the worst thing for my daughter too - I know we've had mega problems in school where they've tried to help by offering a choice and it just makes it worse.

 

The same with how you react when it's building up into a biggie - my daughter will react differently at a different time - sometimes she likes me to stay in the room and she'll sit in the corner of the room, other times she'll punch and scram the settee, other times she wants me to get out and other times she attacks me and if I try to get away she will follow me and corner me into a room. Having said that I can see differences in my daughters aggression depending on what has triggered it - anxieties and confusion and frustration at not understanding that's the worst - if its because something has made her sad or depressed it's a different kind of rage (if that makes sense).

 

To be perfectly honest I think my daughter isn't yet anywhere near this self-awareness that they need to progress though - which why we've had it so hard this past two years - she's just not been ready for her hormones/puberty to hit her on top of the move to secondary school.

 

I really think the progress in self-awareness happens as they mature (and of course they develop their maturity behind NT kids) - and also the level of anxieties they are experiencing at any given time.

 

At the moment my daughters school are really trying which is helping enormously, and for the first time I'm finding that during the calmer moments I can try to talk to her about feelings, emotions etc - but this is only when she wants to - other times she will shut down and that's topic closed.

 

I have seen a real difference in the last two weeks and I think my daughter is really trying - I think until they are ready to want to try and help themselves it just continues. She's scared of her outbursts, it worries her that she can't remember things afterwards and even during a 'rage' she'll say I can't stop it while hitting her head - she is also beginning to say sorry for her behaviour which is a real step forward. I am starting to see a little tiny light at the end of a very long dark tunnel and it's given me so much hope - I was really beginning to think that this was what the rest of our lives were going to be like.

 

Hope you get somewhere soon, keep your chin up.

Take care,

Jb

Edited September 30, 2006 by jb1964

[oracle]

Regarding the strategies you've been told - for us personally I think really the only one I'd agree with is 'no meaning no' -

 

Again I am with jb most of the things they are asking/telling you to do may work and I say may with a much younger child who has ASD but not one who is going through puberty. Actually reading the list has made me wonder how many kids going through puberty they have actually dealt with more to the point have had success with.

 

I can only give you it from the way it happened with us. We could feel an explosion brewing for days. When I say explosion I mean a massive blow up. We would have smaller explosions for days before the biggy and we felt as if David was chasing the biggy and that it was giving him a massive high. I have been told by Paul Shattock that it does give them a high because it's a chemical release and it's a bit like caging a tiger it will pace, prowl and then explode. So the hormones are the chemicals and at the moment they are fluctuating and so self awareness is pretty hard to teach to someone with an 'I'm always right' and 'I'm in control' attitude. The only thing you can do is to make it clear that they are not in control. I can't promise more outbursts because for sure there will be. But underlining that they are not boss is a must. This does not have to be done during an outburst - in fact I would suggest it's something that is talked about afterwards.

 

David needed hours alone after an outburst and I had to get this right. Give him the space he needed before I even tried to approach him. Sometimes it would just make him explode again but slowly we would talk about a rage and where it came from. What it felt like. Un-picking his emotions little by little so that eventually he would know when it was starting what it felt like. I would keep underlining this is what I expect when you feel like you are going to explode. I must have underlined this for 3 years before we had any success. So it's not going to happen overnight. But eventually I would see David begin to get angry and he would remove himself from the situation.

 

I also think self esteme plays a huge part in their feelings and many kids going through puberty feel useless. So along with making David understand that he was NOT boss. I also worked on making him understand that he was actually a brilliant person and who had a great deal to offer. That was when I realised that many of the explosions were born from his feelings of not being worth anything. He felt different and dealt with this through being angry and trying to take control. While I dsicussed how he felt I also discussed how I felt. Maybe you could try and explain to him how you feel when he locks you in. Expect him to say screw you I don't care but it may well plant a seed that he is not theonly one who 'feels'? Even if he can't explain his feelings.

 

I am going to try and have a think about what we did. I can't promise you the answers but I can tell you like it was and how it slowly worked for us.

 

Oracle

 

[

[bid]

Just a couple of thoughts...

 

Very often our kids have huge problems identifying their own emotions, never mind anyone else's. They can find it very difficult to link their physical responses to how they are feeling emotionally, e.g. they find it difficult to realise that when they start to feel hot and their fists clench, it means they are feeling angry. So I guess struggling with that sort of self-awareness can make it very difficult to control your emotions.

 

I would also say that once they are young adults it is also very important to listen to them and acknowledge what they say and what they are feeling in as positive a way as possible, and with respect. Not always easy, mind!

 

Bid

Edited September 30, 2006 by bid

[Kazzen161]

I agree with the "say no and stick to it" BUT think before you speak. Only say no, if you are really sure that you *will* stick to it, otherwise it teaches them that sometimes when you say no, you mean "oh Ok then".

 

I think that it is a long process of teaching them to recognise the signs that they are getting stressed/anxious, and then teaching them ways that they can go off and calm themselves down. After they have lost it, once they are calm, trying to talk through what happened, why and how they coudl have dealt with it better.

 

I will probably regret saying this, but I am finding it harder to deal with my very hormonal NT teen than the two Aspie ones. I take everything my NT son does/says personally, whereas I can distance myself from what my other two say/do.

 

Karen

[nellie]

I'm a mother of two sons on the spectrum, 28 and 26.......I don't look old enough though!!

 

My eldest has very challenging behaviour but I don't believe he has ever been naughty deliberately, his challenging behaviour is usually down to not being understood or his needs not being met in some way.

I went with my gut instinct, ignored the bad (as much as I could) and praised the good. If I thought he didn't understand that his behaviour was inappropriate in some way, I would tell him why it was unacceptable and expect him to change it. He hated and still hates negative comments, he's already negative about everything I don't want to add to that. The word 'no' has always set my eldest off, so I have to try and rephrase things so they have a positive slant. Very hard to remain calm and positive when you are tired, worn out and stressed.

 

My youngest has almost always had perfect behaviour, I now realise he didn't like any attention good or bad, he fears confrontation and like things to be predictable. Unfortunately depression meant he found it difficult to cope with life, so things like getting out of bed and getting washed became a rarity. I felt I had no choice but to be patient and wait for things to get better so apart from trying to be upbeat and trying to motivate him occasionally I left him to his own devices. Five years on and things have improved dramatically.

 

On a positive note, like all teenagers they do improve with age!

 

<'> <'> <'> to everyone who's trying to cope with this problem.

 

Nellie xx

[oracle]

Connective Education helps to connect what is happening inside your body - to what is happening on the outside if that makes any sense?

 

Here is a link to the paper I posted here a while back it explains it so much better than me.

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.ph...ctive+education

 

We used this as much as we could or as much as David would allow at that point and all of the time with Matthew now.

 

I agree with Nellie about the word no and also Kazzen. David hated that word so I tried to use it witout actually saying it. And also only say it if you mean it no matter what.

 

Also agree with Bid even if what David was saying was in my opinion wrong I always accepted that he has a POV and acknowledged it - which is not always easy when you want to someone. I have on occasion gone head to head with David - which again is probably not a wise thing to do but it did bring results sometimes.

 

I think the turning point for me was when a friend of mine rang me from inside her car having been locked out of her house by her son then aged 22, while she and her younger child drove around not knowing what do to. I decided that unless I did something in our house it could be me sitting in that car.

 

Oracle

[barefoot wend]

Curra

 

I really think this is a totally teenage thing. I also agree that it seems that the methods you've been given to deal with this are 1) aimed at NT children and 2) are geared to a younger person not a teenager.

 

The only thing I'd agree with is the 'No meaning No' but even then I'd add the proviso of 'use sparingly, and only over major, major issues'.

 

Let's face it, being a teenager is a hugely emotiional time for all of us so goodness only knows how hard it is for someone with asd. My only aim is to get through it unscathed with the lines of communication still open - then I'll be cheering!

 

Barefoot

[curra]

M can accept a NO, but what is more difficult is giving him a warning and then acting upon it. He's like a toddler wanting to prove whether it's going to happen or not, and when it happens he gets angry and can even get violent. This is in my view not a typical NT behaviour because he doesn't think of the consequences or what the other person feels, he seems to be ruled only by his frustration. That is why I find it difficult to use the strategies recommended by CAHMS (apart from being for much younger children). Later my DS is sorry for his outburst. Then I can talk to him and make him see that it's OK for him to get angry and have his own views, but abuse and violence are not allowed and he can understand that.

I really hope he matures soon, I'm fed up of being locked in. Today he did it again and then he blew up because he was 20 minutes without PC (same amount of time I was locked in...)

Oracle, thanks for the link to the information about Connections Education. I've printed it off to read it better.

Nellie, I think that with my DS it's the same, he's not deliberately naughty but because he doesn't communicate well what he feels/wishes (he expects me to guess) then he acts with aggression. Most of the time he behaves quite well for his age. What I can't accept is that he resorts to abuse to get his needs met, I have to teach him a socially acceptable way of getting his point across.

It gives me hope to hear that they get better with age...

 

Just spoke to a friend on the phone who told me that her NT son once threatened her with a knife when he was about M's age! He's now 20 and a very good lad.

 

A big thanks to all of you for your views and advices. This is a very important issue for me, (as I think for other parents too) and I appreciate all your ideas. It's the only help I'm getting to deal with my DS's diffculties as not even his dad is around to back me up with his upbringing.

 

<'> <'> <'>

 

Curra

[curra]

Oracle, thanks for the link to the information about Connections Education. I've printed it off to read it better.

Sorry, Oracle, I meant Connective Education. Was I thinking of Connexions??

 

Curra