are girls harder to dx asd than boys?

[keepingmesane]

kieran shows a lot of classic type signs of autism and was fairly quickly picked up by the paed and everyine who meets him. i have been told that there is a strong possibility that jas is also asd but that its much much harder to get a dx of asd in girls. is that true?

 

Jas shows quite a few similar things to kieran but becuase she is so strong willed and can put a very outgoing confident front on, its hard to see her difficulties. its only people like her nursery who have spent a lot of time with her that can see the difficulties that she has. she appears to go along as any normal child but in actual fact is either playing alongside, or 'at' other children.. never really 'with' them.

 

so do girls show asd differently or is it simply a case that all children (boy or girl) are just different in their presentation??

 

i would be very interested in your thoughts

[Bambi]

I think it is in girls more than statistics show and what i believe (IMO) is that it is harder to detect in girls because are quieter and more shy than boys on a whole. After doing my own research and gaining knowledge about ASDs this is what i truly believe.

 

I was looked at when i was 4 by medical professionals (had brain & chest scans due to possibility of having fits) kids of my age back in 70s wouldnt of been dx with ASDs and i do believe i have an ASD. my father definately has even tho he is un-dx (he is 65 now) he didnt spk till he was 8 yrs old and his behaviours are very ASD even to this day. When i was 14 i remember telling my school friends that i think my dad had mental problems (due to his behaviours) only when i did my research did i realise i was reading about my son AND my dad!

 

Do seek medical advice if u think this is the case and if u feel she needs it, u know ur child better than anyone no matter what the professionals may think, YOU DO!

 

Bambi x

[Kathryn]

Well my daughter only got her dx at 15. I don't think she would have got one at the age of 6 or 7. I don't know if any studies have been done on the average age of dx of boys and girls respectively.

 

I agree with Bambi: perhaps girls tend to be quieter and less outwardly aggressive when they have difficulties, so the need for a dx doesn't readily arise? Perhaps they try harder to conform to the rules, and are more capable of playing the social game or appearing to do so? Girls tend to have more developed verbal skills at an early age, perhaps this helps to mask their problems? I think all these things are true of my daughter but I don't know if it's the same for all girls on the spectrum. L was always very aloof in groups but never caused any trouble. She would not spontaneously engage with other children but would chat happily to adults in 1-1 situations so it would have taken a very experienced observer to pick up that there was anything different about her.

 

K x

[baddad]

Bit of a personal theory on this one, but i think there are a couple of things that effect the boy/girl statistics:

• It's recognised that girls have a more highly developed communication centre than boys... while autism will effect areas of communication in boys and girls, I suspect that girls at the high functioning end of the spectrum will be more adept at 'masking' the areas that are compromised, because they have a more heightened sort of 'general' social awareness. This also impacts on...
• I think social stereotypes are far wider for girls, so more can live between the 'gaps'. Basically the judgements that are made about specific types of behaviour vary between girls and boys, and are more accommodated in girls... examples would be 'shyness' vs 'socially withdrawn/isolated', 'precoscious' vs 'geeky' 'tomboy' vs 'aggressive', 'dizzy' vs 'crazy'... Take these concepts into adulthood and you see all sorts of similar 'judgements', and if you add some of the sexual precepts into that it gets really scary - switch 'clingy' or 'desperate' for 'pervy' or 'creepy'...

I also think thats why girls tend to get dx'd more at the more profound end of the spectrum... it's not that there's less 'HF' girls, just that - from a social POV - HF girls aren't perceived as having problems... The horror of that is that they do have exactly the same problems as their male counterparts, and are just as likely to be abused/isolated/confused/marginalised as a consequence. If there is any consolation (for the girls) I suspect also that the very stereotyping that does make dx difficult probably allows for one or two 'solid' friendships to persevere, simply because women do have a 'wider' set of expectations about what a sustainable relationship may mean. Women tend to be more tolerant of women than either sex is of men!

 

(BTW - I'm not pleading the boys case, so please don't 'shoot the messenger' )

L&P

BD

[Kathryn]

[*]I think social stereotypes are far wider for girls, so more can live between the 'gaps'. Basically the judgements that are made about specific types of behaviour vary between girls and boys, and are more accommodated in girls... examples would be 'shyness' vs 'socially withdrawn/isolated', 'precoscious' vs 'geeky' 'tomboy' vs 'aggressive', 'dizzy' vs 'crazy'... Take these concepts into adulthood and you see all sorts of similar 'judgements', and if you add some of the sexual precepts into that it gets really scary - switch 'clingy' or 'desperate' for 'pervy' or 'creepy'...

 

BD you know I disagree with you on this one - we've been here before.

 

Girls are still expected to be empathic, sociable, multitasking, sensitive and image conscious. I don't think there's much tolerance of women who won't or can't do this. Men can get away without being any of the above as they are usually defined by their paid work, people don't expect much socially from men. Just thinking of the couples I know - who sends the birthday cards? Who does the inviting and accepting of invitations? Who plugs in to the community and gets to know the neighbours? The woman. Men are excused all these social niceties - they are allowed to have their minds on higher things.

 

That's my opinion anyway.

 

K x

[bid]

Women tend to be more tolerant of women than either sex is of men!

 

Have to say that this has never been my experience, quite the opposite actually

 

If anything, through my life I have found men to be more accepting than women in many ways. But that brings me onto another element that I think can 'hide' the number of women on the spectrum...

 

While I agree with Kathryn that women have huge expectations placed upon them with regard to empathy, looks, etc, I also think that if as a young woman you happen to be relatively pretty, men in particular can see you as 'fey', 'ditsy' and 'kooky', almost like an attractive little pet that comes out with amusing things that he can recount to entertain his mates.

 

My tutor when I did my MA did this all the time to me...he even said I should dye my hair blonde I was so dippy...and then I was the only person on my course to get a distinction

 

I do think that women on the spectrum often tend to observe how other people behave/dress, etc, and then copy this as a sort of survival mechanism.

 

Bid

Edited March 26, 2007 by bid

[yoyo]

I definitely agree with Kathryn and Bid that women are anything except tolerant of other women. My teenage years were awful, especially on the social front. It was other girls and, as an adult, it is always women that make me feel so uncomfortable. Boys and men are so much easier and more straightforward to talk to; perhaps this is because I am so 'ungirly' and am rather manlike in my behaviour.

 

In response to the original question, I do think that girls are more difficult to diagnose. I identify with the descriptions of early childhood above. I was viewed as sociable but too bossy and controlling. As i got older, and now, I realise that I talk at people and am totally unable to work out how to be 'with' them. Work is ok where relationships are concerned but I know that a new colleague is rather bemused that I am evasive of social contact with her as I know I cannot maintain it.

 

Yoyo

[keepingmesane]

thanks for the replies so far

i always thought jas was fine as she was so social, in fact too social in my view, she is always in peoples face right up to their noses! screaming and really overexcited whenever other children are around

i had a lot of difficulties through high school, i was fine in primary as it was ok to be friends with boys and to be a messy tomeboy but as it got to highschool i was ecpected to be dolling up and looking good and interested in boys etc... and all my male friends disappeared as i wasnt a girly girl. i still to this day get shunned by all females as i just cant understand why they want to dress in the coldest and most uncomfortable clothes. i also cant keep friendships up and am very introverted... still dont know where jas gets her bouncyness from. i just wish i could help her more though as she struggles a lot with her emotions and understanding

 

funny thing is that ive noticed how much i ask people if they are ok (i think because i can never actually tell) as my children are constantly asking "are you ok?" to each other and strnagers

 

im lucky that the nursery are very supportive and are pushing for jas to be looked at, her paed and other professionals tell me she is like she is as she has an autistic brother, even though her behaviours are similar they are very different how and when they show

[peppa]

It sounds just like you could be describing my dd, she is 3.8 and got diagnosis of HFA 3 weeks ago.

 

Keep pushing if you are concerned, i was up against it as GP and Hv both disagreed saying she was far to social.

On first appointment with pead though he knew instantly and diagnosed straight away.( he has son with HFA)

 

As you say your ds and dd are different in a lot of ways hence spectrum disorder, so don't let them fob you off with saying she's only like that because her brother is autistic.

If you and the school have concerns and are probably the people who spend the most time with her, then keep pushing.

I was also told its very rare in girls by my GP and HV so think they'd already decided it wasn't a possibilityy before even looking into it, but they were proved wrong.

 

You know your daughter best and if you are concerned don't take know for an answer, best of luck x

[Guest flutter]

my dd was not diag till 11, i knew for a long time, in fact from birth that she was different

i wonder if it cos they are not soo obvious in their behaviour?

mine is into clothes ect, and sorting her hair, and music,

but is very deff asd.

but not one proffesional could see it

[Noetic]

One thing you read a lot is that unless a girl is aggressive or hyperactive, it's often assumed that ASD-type stuff like not talking, quietly playing alone for hours, sticking to an interest excessively etc. are just signs of a girl being well-behaved and intelligent (since she's keeping herself busy and obviously learns a lot and is absorbed by interests etc.).

 

I do agree that girls tend towards "not doing anything" instead of just acting on misunderstood literal interpretations, so while a boy with the same severity of ASD might just blunder into it and commit a social "faux-pas", his twin sister might just quietly sit and busy herself with doodling or daydreaming etc. and ponder inwardly about why the teacher would ask them to do something confusing.

[hedders]

I have 2 dd who are 6 and 3, my pead is very reluctant to referr for investigation of Autism, i feel very frustrated by the whole process.

When older dd was a toddler she would watch or follow her peers from a distance, when she started nursery she didnt interact at first but then all of a sudden she became attached to 2 children.

This pattern still happens the attachments to certain peers is a security for her in school, she can be very over friendly with them, kissing or hugging but she never talks about them with us at home.

I had one of them over for tea she couldnt cope with it, she didnt want to play and kept saying she was bored.

The teachers say she doesnt have any social interaction diffculties, and blame me for trying to say she does, if only they watch them in the playground!!

She does interact in class but looking more closely she approaches children who have objects of interest or she will tell them something about her interest.

She doesnt join in group conversations, and she talks at people not with. She is the only child in the playground on a morning that prefers to talk to the parents asking them lots of questions, she does this with strangers too.

She only plays chase and doesnt join in new games her play skills are poor.

She is very literall and believes everything people tell her and doesnt like any form of rough play or seeing children do this and tells the teachers.

Younger dd SLT wants her to go to an assessment unit as she is displaying the 3 impairments for Autism and yet the pead doesnt feel it is necessary,, OOOh it makes me so angry, and yet they tell me im just over anxious, and dd are testing me or attention seeking, and try parenting courses !!!!!

[jb1964]

so do girls show asd differently or is it simply a case that all children (boy or girl) are just different in their presentation??

 

My daughter wasn't diagnosed til 12 - but very different from birth. She was passive in school (not aggresive - but anxious, struggled with routine changes etc) and exploded at home - until she got to around 10 and things suddenly changed - once we hit secondary school - the problems eventually became the schools problem too - up until then although she lost a lot of time through 'illness/medical' issues it was 'hidden'.

 

Personally I think it seems as though very often the passive in school child's diagnosis - depends very much on the parents - I went from month to month - year to year - convincing myself there was always a reason for whatever behaviour/problem she encountered - the Paed. she was under since birth seemed totally uninterested in anything I said (and even though she was reviewed by him every 3 mths for failure to thrive and weight/eating problems) - it got to a point that after a few years I felt as though I sounded like a hypochondriac.......and eventually probably by the time she was around 3yrs old stopped mentioning anything other than relevant to her eating problems.

 

I've read lots of posts on here - and quite a lot of parents seem to gone the same route as we did - thinking there was something different but because no-one else was saying it thought it must be us kind of thing - and others that stick their grounds - keep telling the GP/Paed/School etc - and they often get the diagnosis much earlier and therefore the help and time to understand in dealing with their problems before it escalates into puberty and secondary schools.

 

Take care,

Jb

Edited March 30, 2007 by jb1964

[bikergal]

I knew dd1 was different very early on, but it wasn't until she was 10 that she was given her first 'label' of social/communication disorder with autistic like behaviour. She was 12 when she was given the label of atypical autism. She struggled very much in first school and had massive meltdowns sometimes as soon as she got out of the classroom kicking me and hitting saying she hated school. Those early years were horrendous. Nobody listened but I didn't give up, she's 13 now and has just got her statement...better late than never

[Kathryn]

Personally I think it seems as though very often the passive in school child's diagnosis - depends very much on the parents - I went from month to month - year to year - convincing myself there was always a reason for whatever behaviour/problem she encountered

 

...

 

I've read lots of posts on here - and quite a lot of parents seem to gone the same route as we did - thinking there was something different but because no-one else was saying it thought it must be us kind of thing - and others that stick their grounds - keep telling the GP/Paed/School etc - and they often get the diagnosis much earlier and therefore the help and time to understand in dealing with their problems before it escalates into puberty and secondary schools.

 

I had a very similar experience jb, and a very miserable 10 years convincing myself L's problems were due to something else - mostly my parenting. She was a similar age to yours when the problems surfaced in earnest. It seems from reading posts here that 10 or 11 tends to be the age when labels are given. Until that time, and especially in the first 7 years, people seemed quite happy to believe she was just a very bright slightly eccentric little girl and we were quite happy to go along with that. She was lucky to have a small preschool and infant school that was a good "fit", so there weren't too many problems which might have prompted us to investigate further.

 

If we'd had a forum like this - or even a computer to trawl around for information - we might have read something which made us sit up and think. But we didn't.

 

K x

[butterfingersbimbo]

the cdc told us that el was possibly asperger's when she was four, ("possibly" due to not wanting to label her.....) and i think this was cos she was showing some very obvious signs by this point and had been for years actually......they couldnt fob me off anymore but we got lucky with a hv who took one look at el and said "OMG!!!!"

 

saying that tho el was also being very agressive and controlling, she also has adhd which they only dx a few years ago.....

 

i have heard that with girls, if they are calm and quiet then its very common for them to remain un dx......and like bid said, girls are more likely to observe and copy....el has become quite skilled at this and it can be a big problem.

[hedders]

Do you feel that in the cases were girls are calm and quiet they should be diagnosed or not??

What if there calm and quiet at school but act differently at home, i dont know where the boundaries are on this??

DD is calm and quiet at school but the ot observed that in unexpected changes dd gets very excited and then gets quite distressed.

When we had the slt assessment she was so restless (anxiety) and started crying.

My younger dd who i believed when she was 2yrs old that she had a form of Autism a yr later the SLT starting to agree she is opp from sister very independent and also quite aggressive prob displaying FHA, but i got to fight hurdles with proff yet that i am not the cause or family home, its so easy to point the finger and make excuses without investigating underlying causes.

[butterfingersbimbo]

oh yes defo they should be dx!!!!! just because they are "easy to manage" in some situations, doesnt mean that they arent having big problems coping, they just arent being obvious about it which can be worse in the long run......keep fighting chic!

[Noetic]

Do you feel that in the cases were girls are calm and quiet they should be diagnosed or not??

Definitely. It helps others understand them and make the world easier to understand, plus sooner or later they will want to know why they feel different from everyone else. Also, just because a child is calm and doesn't misbehave doesn't mean they won't start struggling as they get older and life gets more complex.

[jb1964]

Do you feel that in the cases were girls are calm and quiet they should be diagnosed or not??

What if there calm and quiet at school but act differently at home, i dont know where the boundaries are on this??

DD is calm and quiet at school but the ot observed that in unexpected changes dd gets very excited and then gets quite distressed.

When we had the slt assessment she was so restless (anxiety) and started crying.

My younger dd who i believed when she was 2yrs old that she had a form of Autism a yr later the SLT starting to agree she is opp from sister very independent and also quite aggressive prob displaying FHA, but i got to fight hurdles with proff yet that i am not the cause or family home, its so easy to point the finger and make excuses without investigating underlying causes.

 

My daughter was quiet in school (primary) but not always calm - she would get anxious and upset and became obsessive over things questioning teachers over and over again and resisting or finding it difficult for changes to routine, however at home she would explode and become very aggressive - more often than not even getting through the school gates - walking her home was even worse as she screamed and hit out.

 

By the time she reached 10 it had become a 'school problem' as well and when she hit secondary school it hit everyone like a tonne of bricks - with no help, guidance or knowledge I feel I've let her down terribly - to have 'forced' social situations on her and trying to make her fit in a mould that she found so difficult yet couldn't explain to us to have seen her crying and screaming for hours at a time with no explanation offered by her. Her 'limited understanding' causes so much frustration at not knowing what is going on around her - and since she was 11 when ASD first got mentioned I have found it difficult to try to change the way I speak etc although CAHMS told us we had changed so much in our lives without realising it - up until she was around 9 you can put a lot down to immaturity but all of a sudden you realise that she's saying things or doing things that are inappropriate and this has become more apparent the older she's got her behviour became inexcusable.

 

We are still struggling to come to terms with everything and gobsmacked at the total lack of support and help offered to children diagnosed later - CAHMS told us that unfortunately there are usually more services available for younger children but these are still limited.

 

I'd have to say that there are certainly things I would have done differently that I believe would have caused her less trauma and upset if I'd known when she was younger.

 

Take care,

Jb