inclusion, thoughts please

[lorryw]

I have just read a thread on the TES about inclusion, teachers in the most part are very anti. How do parents feel about inclusion? Do you feel your child should have a place in a mainstream class or special school? What is the (fairyland time) ideal if resources and funding was no object?

[bid]

Hi

 

From our experience of my son ending up having a complete breakdown after 'coping' in mainstream for 10 years I am 100% in favour of specialist education.

 

Once I saw what a AS specific school is like, and then witnessed the transformation of my son after only 4 weeks in this environment, I strongly feel all AS children should have the opportunity of this type of education.

 

I wish there were AS bases attached to mainstream schools.

 

It makes me absolutely furious that our children only get the chance for this kind of school when they have had a breakdown or become suicidal, etc...

 

I only wish my son could have spent the last 10 years in an AS specialist school.

 

I think it is a very real form of discrimination...to my mind, 'inclusion' is really about trying to make autistic children 'normal'...at traumatic cost to them and their families

 

Bid

[loulou]

Hi,

 

I definately agree with Bid. If money were no object (ha ha!), then there should be more specialist education provision available. There are not enough places in special schools for the children who need them, so only the "worst" get the places.

 

Some children cope well in mainstream schools, but for those who don't, "inclusion" is not the answer. For my son, "inclusion" led to "exclusion", which has led to a little boy with extreme school phobia and low self esteem.

 

Teachers also need more training (or awareness) about AS/ADHD etc.

 

Loulou x

[Jericho]

My eldest son is really enjoying being at his mainstream primary school. In his particular case it really is "inclusion" because he genuinely is included in all of the school activities. I didn't think it was possible for a child to love school so much. We are extremely fortunate that he doesn't need a lot of extra support in the classroom. His LSA is there to help him with his IEP targets rather than to support him with general classwork. He doesn't (yet?) need a statement either.

 

If money were no object I'd like to see a system where parents have a genuine choice about wwhether their child should go to a m/s school, a specialist school or a m/s school with an AS/ASD base. We're lucky that our son is thriving in a m/s school because there are no bases in this area and very few places are available at the specialist school.

[mossgrove]

I agree with everyone so far!

 

<rant mode on>

 

Inclusion is not being pushed so hard everywhere because it is the best solution for our children, it is being pushed because it is a cheap alternative to special schools. Special schools are under threat in many areas of the country, and the support in mainstream simply isn't there.

 

I fully understand why many teachers are anti, because they are being asked to deal with behaviours that can be very challenging without any training or support. The lack of expertise/understanding amongst many SENCO's is embarrasing.

 

It may well be that some (but not all) of the children currently being denied places in special schools would do well if proper skills and support were in place, but put bluntly it isn't, and pretending that it is already there doesn't help anyone in the long run.

 

In our son's mainstream school things are going very pear-shaped not because they are not doing the best that they can, but because they simply do not understand children on the spectrum and have no idea what is appropriate and what isn't. We are looking at getting him placed in a specialist unit, but of the two suitable units in out LEA area, one does not expect to have any places for 3 years(!) and the other has no places for the next academic year and isn't sure if and when any places might become available.

 

Meanwhile the government continues to view inclusion as a major success.

 

<rant mode off>

 

I feel better now!

 

Simon

[oracle]

I believe that 'inclusion' is a feeling. No matter how hard we try to include anyone it can only work if it makes them feel comfortable and safe in their enviornment.

 

Just being somewhere, even if you are included for EVERYTHING, is not right if it's making you feel ill

 

We had Jessica Peers speak at our parents meeting the other evening. Jessica attended an ASD specific school, where she was quite frankly bullied by the staff. That's probably the kindest thing I could say about the treatment without facing a prosecution. Jessica did not feel included at all. She told parents that there has to be a revolution where educational provision is concerned. Generally she believes that kids with autism already know that they are different - trying to make them be the same as others, while feeling total turmoil inside, has got to be wrong?

 

How many of us post on a regular basis about how bad school is making our kids feel. Is that 'inclusion'

 

Carole

[nellie]

I agree with Simon, inclusion is seen as a cheap alternative.

 

I believe that inclusion in mainstream schools is not inclusion unless the child and the school have adequate support and ASD specialist training and reasonable adjustments are made for the child. The child has to feel totally included.

 

I find that teachers today think our children have to be treated the same to be included!!!

 

There has been some research evidence that children with autistic spectrum disorders benefit from contact with normally developing peers and that this contact also benefits their classmates (Strain and Hoyson, 2000). But?? the majority of children with ASD, because of the nature of their impairments, do not learn by copying their peers. They learn social skills by rote if they are specifically taught by an adult who is experienced in the appropriate teaching techniques. It is often the case that it is the normal developing role models that alienate the child with ASD as the normal model can refuse to follow the social rules taught, which goes against the behaviour of the majority of children with ASD. The child can also pick up inappropriate behaviours which once learnt are difficult to unlearn.

 

I quote from Rita Jordan?s book, Meeting the Needs of Children with ASD.

�Yet the fundamental nature of the social difficulty means that it is not simply a matter of identifying and teaching missing social skills. Nor does mere exposure to social situations enable the child with an ASD to pick up and respond to social signals; if it were that easy, the child would not have the problem in the first place.

As able people with autism have noted (Sinclair 1992, Williams 1996, Gerland 1997), it is not enough to get them to copy ?normal? social behaviour without any understanding of what they are doing. Not only is this extremely stressful and difficult for the person with ASD, but it does not enable them to generalise these behaviours to other situations (or at least it does not guarantee that if they do try to do so the result will be appropriate or correctly timed), not to adapt them as the situation changes. It is the prime feature of social behaviours that they are flexible and finely attuned to changing social situations. Trying to teach social skills without the responsiveness and understanding that normally underpins them, often just results in making children appear even more socially odd as they stick to learnt routines that are no longer adequate.

There is even the danger that teaching social skills, without the necessary understanding and consequent adaptability, may result in increased vulnerability in the child with an ASD�.

 

 

Clare Sainsbury, in A Martian in the Playground, makes the persuasive

case that mainstream education inherently discriminates against children

with ASD.

Inclusion is an afterthought. It is our children who are expected to adapt to

mainstream education. Mainstream education was not designed with their

needs or interests in mind.

Involuntary inclusion is as problematic as involuntary segregation.

 

Inclusion and autism: is it working?

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=160&a=3462

 

I don't feel better now!!!

 

Nellie xx

[sylvm]

I think you've all hit the nail on the head. Inclusion can work really well but only with fully trained staff and as much support is needed. If this were in place (if only!) I guess some of our kids would thrive in mainstream and others would be better in special schools. Mainstream schools are hampered by budgetary constraints even when they are supportive. They also lack knowledge of how to deal with asd - I am feeling frustrated with some of the punishments they deal out to my daughter, not because they are not sympathetic, but because they don't understand. Of course, if you have an inadequately supported child in class, it affects all the other children as well, so everyone suffers.

[lorryw]

The other problem is that the expertise is just not there for dealing with our children. Teachers just dont receive adequate training. Especially now with the government fast tracking graduates into teaching within a year. I have spoken to several newly qualified teachers who said that SEN was dealt with in one session and autism only mentioned in passing. Teachers are often sent on 2 day courses and then regarded as autism experts who pass on their knowledge (hmph!) to the rest of the staff. I have heard some absolute rubbish spouted which would be funny if it wasnt so tragic.

[nellie]

I agree Loraine,

 

Teacher's should have accredited training at the beginning plus ongoing training. I also believe all schools should have ASD specialist teachers.

 

This is the National Autistic Society position statement on Education and inclusion

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=459&a=5580

 

Nellie xx

[mossgrove]

Loraine

 

I agree wholeheartedly on the training front.

 

We are having major problems with the head of 'Early Years' at our children's school who has been on a couple of half-day courses, and now feels qualified to lecture us at every available opportunity about our children's needs and how best we should meet them, both at home and in school.

 

Simon

[Kathryn]

I agree that there should be specialist teachers in all schools. You can't learn everything about autism on a course, you learn by dealing with it on a daily basis because every child with ASD is unique. So having a specialist teacher on site to provide ongoing support to other staff and to deal with problems as they arise is a good idea. In the long run it might even be a more "efficient use of resources" as far as LEAs are concerned, enabling more children to cope in mainstream.

 

I would also like to see better training for teachers. When I trained as a teacher we had a couple of lectures on visual and hearing impairment, that was the sum total of our "special needs" training. Perhaps all trainee teachers should be required to do a month's placement in a specialist school or ASD unit, or even a period in a mainstream classroom working as an LSA to a child with ASD. Teachers need hands on experience in order to recognise the signs and deal with the problems.

[oracle]

Training is the BIG ISSUE which we are pushing with Lord Filkin. Our next meeting is March 1st. Training must be made manditory and must be on-going. It must also be for more than a couple of hours. We also feel that 'in house' training, while saving money, is not always carried out by professionals who are qualified themselves.

 

Carole

[puffin]

I think that another important issue is to force schools to spend their SEN budgets (for pupils without statements) on SEN. The TES debate showed that schools are not forced to do this and often the sen budget is raided as it is sen as a "soft option" - yet schools are usually allocated 10's, and perhaps even 100's of �000s to support SEN.

[lisa]

My daughter is on School Action Plus and we've worked out that less than �1.50 per week is spent supporting her in addition to the SENCO's salary (which in our school's case is the biggest waste of money in the history of the world!) When we questioned what happens to the money for SEN children without a statement the school said it covers SEN books and computer software. My child has never had any books or software. I suspect it's being spent on the extra teacher the school have employed to "hothouse" year 6 for the SATS. Either that or the flowers in the hanging baskets and the teaching staff's end of term marks and spencers buffet!

 

Lisa

[lisa]

Does anyone know how the SEN budget is calculated for a school? A friend was saying that the amount the school gets is linked to how many pupils claim free school meals.

 

Lisa

[Joe's gran]

The problem with the policy of inclusion is that it is cutting people's options down as, certainly in our area, parents of newly diagnosed children are not sufficiently informed of their choices. We were not even told about the existance of the local language unit/special schools until we read on here how some children had benefited and we began to look into the position locally. Since my daughter really pushed the idea of special ed more options have been given and time is being spent now looking round various schoools ..but it was difficult to find out what the options were.

 

Joe has really benefited from going to the local mainstream nursery and it has encouraged us that he may 'do ok' in mainstream school. However in nursery his 1-2-1 support assistant has had children with ASD / AS before and the staff generally have been wonderful. It seems though the support may only be as good as the support person. I am sure that the greater majority are dedicated people but we worry that Joe may get one in mainstream who is off sick every other week ...what do we do then?

 

It seems to us that inclusion should be just one of many options but in this area the options are being reduced because of inclusion, with local special schools merging and even closing in some cases.

Joe's gran

[Dorcas]

Does anyone know how the SEN budget is calculated for a school?  A friend was saying that the amount the school gets is linked to how many pupils claim free school meals.

There's a document here which includes a complete description of how SEN funding is calculated in one county (if you have the strength to plough through it the figures are in sections 4, 5 & 6)

[puffin]

I found this document yesterday that shows how much schools in Hampshire get - if you look at page 3 and the column for SEN you can see how much schools are getting for children without statements

 

http://www.hants.gov.uk/education/schools/...3mainstream.pdf

[barefoot wend]

My son enjoyed his mainstream primary years even though we had a few hiccoughs. Generally, he had some very understanding teachers who tried very hard to help make things tolerable for him. He was respected by his peers and had a good group of classmates who understood his difficulties, many of whom genuinely liked him.

 

He went on two residential school trips - one to the Isle of Wight for five days and one to France for six days. It says alot to the dedication of staff at the school that they did their utmost to include him and he felt safe with them. I think this boosted his self-esteem and independence.

 

Secondary school has seen more difficulties with lots of different teaching staff with no clear policy as to how to best cater for his needs. He has not felt able to go on any school trips.

 

I have considered the possibilty of pushing for a special school now that we are in the process of having him statemented but as his school are now trying very hard with specialist help from outside I feel more encouraged to give it another go. Further, as there are no specialist schools locally it would mean looking at a residential placement which I don't feel either he, or we, are quite ready for as he's only just 13.

 

Barefoot

[baddad]

Interesting thread, this one!

My personal feeling is that Bid's hit the nail on the head - specialised ASD 'bases' in mainstream school's, so that integration can be co-ordinated to the needs/abilities of the individual child as seamlessly as possible.

To my mind, the needs of ASD children are as difficult to meet in the average 'Special' school as they are mainstream, because in either situation they are being asked to meet expectations that they don't comprehend; it's just that the expectations are different...

For the 'high functioning' ASD child, the choice seems to be play by NT rules in the mainstream class, or have your potential undermined by attending the special unit. Further, the gulf between the two seems to be widening, rather than narrowing as the philosophy of inclusion seemed to promise. Neither situation is the 'right' one, and I think the best we can do as parents is to be realistic in our own assessments of our childs needs, and choose a school on that basis.

This is, of course, a sweeping generalisation, and levels of 'expertise' can vary enormously between schools of either type, but having an ASD son in mainstream and an ASD nephew in special ed has convinced me that neither offers the ideal solution.

[bid]

Hi Bads,

 

What about specialist AS/HFA schools like the one my son goes to?

 

This has been nothing short of miraculous for him...he is very high functioning and 'gifted' (I hate that word!).

 

On the down side, after exhaustive research we found only two schools in the whole country that were appropriate for him, and the other one didn't have a place (and didn't 'feel right' for him, if you know what I mean...).

 

I think we need AS/HFA bases attached to mainstream schools, but I also think we need more residential AS/HFA specialist schools too, because some youngsters will always need a 24 hour curriculum.

 

We also need more AS/HFA Special Further Education Colleges to follow on from school. Again, only about 3 in the whole country that we could find . They are a great idea, using link provision with local mainstream FE Colleges.

 

What makes me so angry is that with this type of provision young people with AS can and do go on to become independent, contributing members of our community. Without this sort of support too many end up with serious mental health problems and limited independence.

 

This post 16 provision is also something we should all be fighting for, because although it might seem years away now, all our children will be young adults sooner than we think...with currently precious little provision or understanding

 

Bid

[moncs]

Over the past couple of months I have visited this site and found it to be very informative, but I often get angered by some responces concerning teachers . It seems when there are problems the buck stops at the teacher. The teacher doesn't understand , the teacher is not trained ...... What we forget is that the teachers are employed by their local councils and the education authority. training and courses are organised at this level if there is not enough adequate resouces , courses and provision I am sorry but the class teacher has no control over it. With inclusion there are hundreds of teachers who have to learn to cope with a varity of additional needs not just aspergers and autism. In a perfect society teachers would be adequately trained to meet every childs needs but this at present is not the case. In college the provision is pitiful and this surely must be an area which could be improved however I don't think it is possible to train teachers in everything. That is why we have specialist teachers . In my experience teachers only learn about a condition when they have a child in their class . It may not be to the standard that parents wish but they are only human , they do have a class full of children to teach and they are generally left to get on with it with no support what so ever.

I understand that parents have to fight their school to get their basic needs met I am currently in the process of doing this too. But I unfortunately can see both sides of the coin . The class teacher should not be used as a punch bag or the scape goat for the problems inclusion brings.

[lorryw]

Hi Moncs,

I also work in education and I dont feel that this thread attacks teachers. It is the system that is failing both schools and children.

I am more than aware that teachers are left to flounder with children they have no idea how to deal with. This includes children with a multitude of learning and behavoural difficulties which for whatever reasons were not seen in schools even a few years ago.

The closure of special schools and inclusion has led to chaos and heartbreak for parents. Parents are often led to believe that once a child enters school the help and assistance they so desperately need will meet them at the door. Sadly this isnt true and the first person in the line of fire is the teacher.

I dont know what the answer is, perhaps a complete rethink of the education system, but I dont think the powers that be would agree.

[baddad]

Hi Bid-

Yeah, I 'sort of' agree about the specialist schools you mention, but think the chances of funding to get enough of them is unlikely... I also thing there's an issue of visibility - if schools are wholly AS/HFA it implies an 'us and them' scenario. Also (and I'm really sorry if this touches a nerve) I think there's a possible pitfall in terms of self-esteem - a recognised problem in all fields of disability- when kids leave school permanently and their social status outside fails to live up to their expectations. I'm also concerned that such provision implies a 'two-tier' system, and actually has a negative effect on the way that more profoundly affected autistic people are percieved; another spin on that old 'savant' issue that's been kicking about for years - The rainman effect (you mean your son CAN't work out complex math problems in the blink of an eye, or paint highly technical scale-correct cityscapes?)...

I think what you've got for A's fantastic, and I'm so pleased for you all. And yes, all the positives DO outweigh the few negatives I've mentioned. At the end of the day, though, I still think the ideology of inclusive education is the best one, if only we could find a way of making that ideology work! In the meantime, I'm sure I'll be tapping you and A up for a reference for Ben in a few years time

L&P

BD

[oracle]

A complete re-vamp of the education system is exactley what is needed. The kind of education that Bid is talking about would be nothing less than all of our kids deserve.

 

I for one hope that I never knock teachers, although not all of them want our kids. But I do knock the system. The Government is passing the buck. It passes it to Local Education Authorities who then pass it down to schools. Devolved funding passes the buck even further down the road to schools - who remain under funded and under trained. How many Head Teachers are REALLY going to spend the SEN budget on SEN. HT's are very good at creative accounting. LEA's do not insist on training it's left to the school?

 

I was Chair of Governors at a school for ten years. I feel sorry for many teachers because when they went into teaching it was NOT to teach the mixed bag of SEN children that they are expected to teach now. (that's one of the reasons I took mine out) And still the Government are not making SEN training mandatory in Teacher Training Colleges and at Uni. So whose fault is this mess? In my opinion the Government - not just this one - but those who went before. Inclusion is a cost cutting exercise that the Government were hoping that we parents would not cotton on to.

 

But as a parent that is being told that the buck does stop with their child's school, who are they expected to moan to?

 

I have been screaming for years that we also need to be screaming for legislation so that we can all play on a level playing field. But until parents realise this and are brave enough to stand up and be counted then we will not make any progress and will remain screming at the wrong people.

 

OK - shot gun time for me now. Who would like to hold the gun?

 

We fight the only people we can if that appears to be unfair sorry but if we don't fight for our kids - no one else will.

 

Carole

[bid]

Morning, Badster

 

Mmmmm, I had to think about your reply for a while!

 

First of all, I only said that Auriel is gifted because some people on this forum have been told by various 'professionals' that their child is too bright to get a specialist placement ( it wasn't swank ). At his AS/HFA school there is a cross-section of abilities, but it is only within this specialist provision that my son is finally fulfilling his potential.

 

Second...the possible problem after leaving a specialist placement of failing to 'fit in' socially. This is why we need more Special Colleges with link provision to mainstream colleges. At the College Auriel will hopefully go to, the AS/HFA students have their own base room to use outside lessons...some AS students never use it because they are off with their 'mainstream mates', some use it for some of the time and others always use it. But they have that support in place for them to choose or not as they decide.

 

After 10 years in mainstream my son had no self-esteem left. He desperately wanted to be with 'people like me' (his words to any professional we saw). By the time he went to his new school he had almost completely withdrawn from the NT world But after just 4 weeks in his new school he had the confidence to join Christmas family get-togethers, etc.

 

So, from our experience I don't feel that 'inclusion' as it stands now works. I feel it is a form of discrimination because at the moment it seeks to make the ASD child 'fit in' & 'cope'. This may well work superficially within primary school for some children, but I personally think secondary school is a completely different case. Expectations are so different, especially when you get to GCSEs.

 

I also think our children deserve better than 'coping strategies'...I don't think that is 'inclusive' or a real education.

 

Sorry...got carried away and ended up ranting! Of course, it's great for anyone for whom it does work, but judging by the posts on this forum you can probably count them on the fingers of one hand.

 

Sorry everyone if I've been too forthright...it's just that we have been through both primary and secondary school in mainstream, and we were the ones who were left to pick up the pieces after 'inclusion'.

 

Bid

 

Also meant to add, that there will always be some high-functioning children who need a 24 curriculum. For some children it is just not possible within an ordinary family setting to provide them with the support package they need...either in emotional or practical/logistical terms, even with outside help (if there was such a thing...which there isn't!).

Edited February 7, 2005 by bid

[lisa]

Bid,

 

I have to say I totally agree with you on this one. My son is in mainstream primary and on the surface is doing ok with 10 hours 1:1 support. He is quite depressive at times and although he is "coping" at the moment I don't see how he can continue to keep this up particularly as he is due to transfer to secondary school in September. My youngest daughter is pretending to "cope" at school and this is causing us a major headache with the LEA and school. They're not prepared to recognise that behind the average attainment there is a child whose emotional wellbeing is rapidly spiralling out of control. At 7 years old she is already self harming on occasions. This isn't normal behaviour and however much you try I don't think you can fit a square peg in a round hole. Inclusion just damages their self esteem as far as I'm concerned.

 

Lisa

[bid]

I think the problem with 'inclusion' has been that all Special Needs have just been lumped together

 

So it may be entirely appropriate that a child with, say, Cerebral Palsy is now in mainstream...and they may benefit hugely from this experience, as may their peers.

 

BUT, there is a world of difference between an NT child with CP and a child with an ASD...and this is what successive governments and therefore LEAs and schools have failed (refused??) to understand.

 

Bid

[mossgrove]

I also think inclusion as a concept and inclusion as it works in practice are entirely different things, at least they are in many places.

 

We have a statement for our eldest son which sets out what must be provided. We also have a son who is awaiting asessment and getting limited 1:1 support. There is a new headmistress at the school who has already come out with the following.

 

"Surely it is not reasonable to expect us to devote all these resources to one child"

 

"It is not fair to expect us to devote all of our special needs budget for the reception year to your child"

 

"His teachers are finding him hard to deal with. I don't thinl you can expect them to do any more than they do"

 

"You wouldn't get this kind of help anywhere else"

 

and the veiled threat

 

"If you ask his 1:1 assistant to do any more than she does she might go off sick with stress and then we wouldn't be able to find a replacement"

 

We are essentailly being told that the school cannot meet the statement provision, and it is not reasonable for us to expect them too. LEA's are moving to a model where special needs funding is assessed on the schools size and catchhment area, not on the number of pupils with special needs, special schools up and down the country are being closed on the grounds they are no longer required due the the barnstorming success of inclusion, and (if the Tories get in) all schools will be granted the right to exclude pupils without there being any right of appeal and the future starts to look bleak.

 

Simon

[baddad]

Hi Bidster

Just wrote a long reply to your post and then accidently deleted it!

This is the short (and less precise!) version...

Firstly, I just want to say that there is NO WAY I thought you were being 'swank'. You and A have every right to be proud of his achievements, and thats regardless of any AS/ASD considerations whatsoever...

Also, I agree fully that his school provision is excellent, probably the best at this point that you could hope for...

Inclusion as is does NOT work, I agree, but I still think inclusion that does work would be the best all round. I hope one day we'll get there...

The'two tier' system I mentioned was part of a wider concern... It's a recognised problem that high functioning disabled people have a tendancy to distance themselves from those who are less able (I'm not gonna dig out the text books tonight, but (Sofia?) Safilos-Rothschild (I think) is one researcher who springs to mind, and some of the A L F's activites appear guilty of the same prejudices), and this undermines the latter groups social 'status' even further.

Not directly connected, but has anyone noticed how comedians (Frank Skinner/Billy Conolly etc) seem to regard Steven Hawkings as 'fair game' for a p***take because he has achieved a degree of social status and recognition? That really pees me off, 'cos if they were to make the same observations about a non-intellectual disabled person they'd be hauled over the coals... People like Ricky Gervais have a worse 'reputation', but the odd thing is they're actually trying to make a point rather than just score cheap laughs... As i said, not directly connected, but in my knackered and addled brain at this time of night, sort of connected enough for me to want to make the point.

Sorry!

Best

BD