Internal versus external world

[bid]

As requested, Kathryn...open to all debaters, AS and NT

 

As I posted before, for me my internal world of my obsessions and thoughts, etc, has by far the greater reality than the external world.

 

I greatly enjoy some aspects of the external world, but largely feel as though I am just 'visiting'.

 

I would suggest that those on the autistic spectrum need the solitude of their internal world to a far greater, more urgent degree than those who are NT (sorry for the stereo-types, but please take as shorthand).

 

Throws debate open to the floor

 

Bid

Edited February 26, 2008 by bid

[pearl]

I'm NT (I fink ) but would go stark staring mad if I didnt have solitude, long walks far from the madding crowd, absorbing books to lose myself in, I get very jumpy if I don't get time alone, can sit thinking for hours, feel a bit of an outsider, but I have no way of knowing if this need is as urgent in me as it is for AS peeps.

 

Thing is, you'd never know. My end of the office is known as bi-polar corner (no offence) cos me & my colleague are usually hysterically laughing or crying about something & the noise level goes up as soon as we arrive. And I'm not putting it on, that is equally a part of me too. I dunno.

[baddad]

Hmmmm... all a bit philosoficle fillersoff philli... deep for an old t'icky like me...

 

Ben's Australian penfriend once wrote us that she was 'going out with an existentialist'... i replied 'No he's going out with YOU'... It was such a good joke I've copywritten it

 

In a nutshell, I'd say i agree with Kathryn that we are 'the sum of our experiences' so in that respect I guess the internal world is far more 'real' because it is the one we inhabit all of the time. That internal dialogue is going on all of the time, whereas the external world exists on a personal level only within the framework of our involvement in it(?)

Never forget Freud's Id either - it is responsible for pretty much everything, even if we like to think otherwise! It all starts there, everything else is 'negotiation'

 

L&P

 

BD WITH A HEADACHE

[Kathryn]

I had to go searching for my original comment - couldn't remember which thread it was on. This is what I posted after Bid's original question:

 

I suggest that it's the same for everyone (AS or NT) : that one's internal world is always more real, seeing that it's our inner world i.e. memories, emotions and thoughts, that shapes our interactions with the real i.e. external world.

 

Now you've phrased the question slightly differently, Bid, I'll have to think about it some more. Do those on the spectrum need the solitude of their internal world more?

 

Difficult to answer generally as each of us can only speak for what's going on inside our own head. I know I definitely need mental and physical solitude, and I do get the "visitor" feeling, not necessarily all the time. I know that sometimes I can fake (and enjoy) engagement with the world whilst still being very much inside my own head - if that makes sense. And I can kind of step outside myself and observe myself interacting, and find it quite interesting.

 

I don't know how my experience compares with anyone else's. I think I'm more NT than AS - who the heck knows? I don't feel either label fits me too well, but I don't really feel the need to clarify where I am on the spectrum, if at all. There could be other explanations for my need for space (only child?) my visitor complex (grew up in a different country?).

 

Interested to hear what others say - must go to bed before my head explodes!

 

K x

[bid]

Hmmmm... all a bit philosoficle fillersoff philli... deep for an old t'icky like me...

 

 

In a nutshell, I'd say i agree with Kathryn that we are 'the sum of our experiences' so in that respect I guess the internal world is far more 'real' because it is the one we inhabit all of the time. That internal dialogue is going on all of the time, whereas the external world exists on a personal level only within the framework of our involvement in it(?)

 

And this, presumably, is where things differ between those on the spectrum and the NT world...

 

Bid

 

And now I must do some NVQ assessing!!

Edited February 27, 2008 by bid

[warrenpenalver]

depends on my stress levels and frustration with the real world. more stressed or frustrated the more i retreat into myself.

 

I have from a very young age had my own internal world which is much better than the reality of this world. I would regularly retreat into my mind and live in and do things in my internal world sometimes involving toys etc and playing in the real world as part of the internal world.

 

Also it is a great place to go when the real world is bad and horrible because im in control in my world. things dont have to be bad. I was lucky i could easily move wholey into my internal world as it was very useful when some bad things happened to me as a child as i could be somewhere else in my mind even if the body was being hurt. The shrinks say some people develop and internal world in response to bad experiences to cope. I was lucky it already existed so it was much easier to go there when bad things did happen.

 

I still even now have an internal world i love. Yes it has developed to be similar to reality in its physical construction, but it rotates around my obsessions as well. I am obsessed with cars and transport generally so in my mind i am often driving my car. Even more so when my car is broken i will spend hours and hours in my virtual world while i walk round in the real world.

 

Sometimes i combine the inner virtual world with reality, for example when driving like a nutter on a country lane or racetrack i can be doing this in my head as well as the real world trying to make the real world match the perfection of the virtual world so i can back up my world with real sensations and stimuli.

 

I find music is a great help to blot out the real world and retreat into my inner world.

[Kinda]

I'm having trouble with this one, for me the external world and internal world should be substituted for being in one's own thougths or being part of society. Am I missing the point?

 

I just can't get my head round what you mean by internal and external world other than my definition above.

[bid]

I'm having trouble with this one, for me the external world and internal world should be substituted for being in one's own thougths or being part of society. Am I missing the point?

 

I just can't get my head round what you mean by internal and external world other than my definition above.

 

Mmmm...just in from my night shift, so a bit k-nacked...

 

By 'internal world' I mean more than just being in my own thoughts, but I can't think of how to explain it at the mo.

 

Let me get some zzzzz and I'll get back to you

 

Bid

Edited February 27, 2008 by bid

[darky]

For me it has to be my internal world which extends to my house! I know what I mean and understand my own head, the problem is other people don't, so the outside world can be confusing. I am very protective over my own mind, I hate it when people presume to know what I am thinking. My house is my comfort. I hate "intruders" aka visitors. I feel safe in my house and know it is the one place I can be myself and not to justify myself or have people giving me weird looks and saying "eh?"

[Guest Lya of the Nox]

when on me own i am always inside my head, if that makes any sense,

dunno if this counts but my dreams are always so vivid and muddled that later on in the day i get confused as to whether they are real of not

but then could just be me :whistle: :whistle:

 

x

[bid]

Quickly, but I shall be back with more once I've slept...

 

When I'm in my internal world, which is my over-riding reality, it's as though the people around me are almost like ghosts.

 

However, if I'm in a social situation that is very stressful for me and I can't be in my internal world, I feel as though I am like a ghost.

 

Occasionally the two sort of merge, and I have successful, enjoyable interaction with (has to be only a few) other people.

 

Have no idea if this is anything like it is for anyone else with AS...

 

Right, gotta go bed!!

 

Bid

[Frangipani]

Hi,

 

I am somewhere in the middle I need both just as much as the other. I love solitude to the max and ensure it is quality time out with my walking swimming music prayer painting/drawing outings red wine good movie / book bubble bath. Sleep in. Detailing the house and garden or ironing make me happy - I am very strange I am a neat freak but don't have OCD

 

Company of others definitely a need - my kids friends work-clients church, connect groups art circle, coffee buddies and when swimming there are many I have known for years I talk to but also others just talk to me when I smile at them. People if they appear they want to talk I try to be open and non judgemental. I am likely to pop money in the hand of the metho drinker passed out on a pak bench. If I go into a shop I always smile and say hello to the sales teams and often ask if they have had a good day and they really love to talk - truly, not many say hello:( . Sometimes I sense they are really lost or lonely so offer them a card for my church as they have an awesome social network and lots of great courses. Plus the best music.

 

I always make friends easily and at church if I see someone sitting alone usually I will sit with them 'females' of course males would think typical male thoughts no offence guys ... oops...I am often with a half a dozen friends from my connect groups - I have two but we sit with anyone alone 99.9% of the time they are really grateful. Often they are new or shy so need interaction. I also put my hand up to volunteer.

 

I would be lost without my friends and crying if I didn't have any me time - so I am up at 5 - 5.30am so there are no excuses.

 

I am so easy to please. No mopping around no time.

 

Fran

 

Edited February 27, 2008 by Frangipani

[Tally]

Bid, when you say you sometimes feel like you are "just visiting" the external world, and the thing about ghosts, I relate to that a lot. I often feel as though I am invisible and other people cannot see me - because they cannot see me they will not relate to me in any way. I always found this a comforting feeling, especially in situations where I would feel nervous about dealing with a large number of people, like in school.

[pearl]

Well, I was away with the fairies so much this morning I forgot to drop JP off at work! This little voice says, where are you taking me?... I had no recollection of the drive, which is rather worrying. Mind you, he clearly hadnt noticed either until unfamiliar landmarks started appearing!

[Kinda]

OK

 

I think I'm begining to understand but can you feel not there in the external world or have you already indicated this?

[Mumble]

if I'm in a social situation that is very stressful for me and I can't be in my internal world, I feel as though I am like a ghost.

Kind of floating alongside, but not quite 'there'.

 

My end of the office is known as bi-polar corner (no offence) cos me & my colleague are usually hysterically laughing or crying about something & the noise level goes up as soon as we arrive.

You're supposed to be silent in libraries, Pearl.

[bid]

OK

 

I think I'm begining to understand but can you feel not there in the external world or have you already indicated this?

 

Yerse...I said that in very stressful social situations, I feel as though I am like a ghost...

 

I'm still trying to think how to explain that my internal world is more than just 'being in my own thoughts', but I'm not being very successful

 

Ummm...my focus is so predominantly internal that I even feel extremely detached from my own famiily. A huge ammount of what I do in my life is done on intellectual and/or moralistic grounds, not because I 'feel' those things. Which is not to say that I don't experience intense emotions, because I do, but not necessarily in the same way/at the same time/for the same things as the NT world.

 

My internal world is the only place that I can be completely 'me'. In the external world, everything I do is to a greater (sometimes extremely greater) or lesser degree a pretence of being NT or an attempt to accommodate sensory problems.

 

Gotta dash for the school run, but I still don't think I'm doing a very good job of explaining my internal world...

 

Bid

[bid]

Bid, when you say you sometimes feel like you are "just visiting" the external world, and the thing about ghosts, I relate to that a lot. I often feel as though I am invisible and other people cannot see me - because they cannot see me they will not relate to me in any way. I always found this a comforting feeling, especially in situations where I would feel nervous about dealing with a large number of people, like in school.

 

I really identify with the feeling 'invisible' in a positive way, Tally!

 

Bid

Edited February 27, 2008 by bid

[Frangipani]

Well, I was away with the fairies so much this morning I forgot to drop JP off at work! This little voice says, where are you taking me?... I had no recollection of the drive, which is rather worrying. Mind you, he clearly hadnt noticed either until unfamiliar landmarks started appearing!

 

I did this a couple of times with my daughter - she would be all dressed up for ballet or other dance lesson and I would drive right passed the dance school to drop her at school just 30 metres down the same street, she would abruptly look at me and I would burst out laughing 'just doing a U turn. DOH!!

 

I think I did it on occasion just to stir her up. Oooh she could give a cutting glare - I don't know where she gets that from.....

 

[bid]

Company of others definitely a need - my kids friends work-clients church, connect groups art circle, coffee buddies and when swimming there are many I have known for years I talk to but also others just talk to me when I smile at them. People if they appear they want to talk I try to be open and non judgemental. I am likely to pop money in the hand of the metho drinker passed out on a pak bench. If I go into a shop I always smile and say hello to the sales teams and often ask if they have had a good day and they really love to talk - truly, not many say hello:( . Sometimes I sense they are really lost or lonely so offer them a card for my church as they have an awesome social network and lots of great courses. Plus the best music.

 

Sorry, but I have to say that as someone with AS, this would be my absolute nightmare...being talked to by a complete stranger!!

 

On the whole, I don't really want very many people to talk to me, especially people I don't know

 

And people 'deciding' I'm lonely or whatever...aarrrggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Bid

[Frangipani]

Sorry, but I have to say that as someone with AS, this would be my absolute nightmare...being talked to by a complete stranger!!

 

On the whole, I don't really want very many people to talk to me, especially people I don't know

 

And people 'deciding' I'm lonely or whatever...aarrrggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Bid

 

I can sense they are looking for company - if they want to be alone read their body language. Its something our Pastor asks us to do at church and in my career I had to do this. I am amazed at how people walk in and out of shops without even smiling and I see how pleased and happy people are to chat so its always a two way interaction. The company spent thousands on us sending us to conferences and workshops on 'customer service' it was do it - do it, feel the fear and do it anyway. I hated it Bid I really struggled at first. Mainly because I lost my confidence after my marriage ended, however I would have left him anyway - he was a Misogenist pig according to my Marriage Counsellor funny so was my recent ex

 

I know it isn't for everyone - but I have my days too where I like to be 'invisible' thats when I wear my sunnies and eye Ipod and joggers - I am a no go zone need my space and solitude and love it. As I said I am in the middle of both. I also have days where I don't even make eye contact but I try to always smile and say hello if others make the first gesture. It makes me feel happy when someone takes a second to acknowledge me walking by that why I do it - someone once said Quote: You may be the only person that has smiled and said hello to them all week, I know what that's like being a single mum - 'lonely'. Sometimes I walk past the retirement village and pass the very elderly going for their daily walk. Their faces light up like a Christmas tree when you say hello - you can almost see the tears. Whenever I was feeling like ###### which was often, this was on my list of things to do, to feel happy again.

 

Fran xx

[warrenpenalver]

I know what I mean and understand my own head, the problem is other people don't, so the outside world can be confusing. I am very protective over my own mind, I hate it when people presume to know what I am thinking.

This comment makes so much sense to me!! Nobody really understnds inside my head but me!! And too many people presume things.

 

Bid, when you say you sometimes feel like you are "just visiting" the external world, and the thing about ghosts, I relate to that a lot. I often feel as though I am invisible and other people cannot see me - because they cannot see me they will not relate to me in any way. I always found this a comforting feeling, especially in situations where I would feel nervous about dealing with a large number of people, like in school.

although i dont feel like a ghost, i do feel like an outsider looking in mostly. It feels like Warren is part to a group of people having a conversation which you are not part of. So sometimes in that situation i walk off to do something which looks very rude apparently because to the group, i was involved, even if to me i was not and just an outsider sitting there. I dont intend to offend but assumed becuase i was on the outside they thought i was too.

 

I feel an outsider looking in on the world a lot. I like to be invisible like tally says. invisible is safe and wont make me feel awkward as people dont see me. I walk around a lot observing with the world rather than interacting with it. The same when i am in social situations i can often cope when im on the outside just watching rather than participating.

[bid]

I can sense they are looking for company - if they want to be alone read their body language. Its something our Pastor asks us to do at church and in my career I had to do this. I am amazed at how people walk in and out of shops without even smiling and I see how pleased and happy people are to chat so its always a two way interaction. The company spent thousands on us sending us to conferences and workshops on 'customer service' it was do it - do it, feel the fear and do it anyway. I hated it Bid I really struggled at first. Mainly because I lost my confidence after my marriage ended, however I would have left him anyway - he was a Misogenist pig according to my Marriage Counsellor funny so was my recent ex

 

I know it isn't for everyone - but I have my days too where I like to be 'invisible' thats when I wear my sunnies and eye Ipod and joggers - I am a no go zone need my space and solitude and love it. As I said I am in the middle of both. I also have days where I don't even make eye contact but I try to always smile and say hello if others make the first gesture. It makes me feel happy when someone takes a second to acknowledge me walking by that why I do it - someone once said Quote: You may be the only person that has smiled and said hello to them all week, I know what that's like being a single mum - 'lonely'. Sometimes I walk past the retirement village and pass the very elderly going for their daily walk. Their faces light up like a Christmas tree when you say hello - you can almost see the tears. Whenever I was feeling like ###### which was often, this was on my list of things to do, to feel happy again.

 

Fran xx

 

But I feel you are ascribing NT imperatives to everyone...

 

If I don't smile, it's probably because I haven't even registered the other person, and if I have registered them and I don't smile it's because I don't want to and find them smiling at me extremely intrusive

 

Certainly for me, my autism makes social approaches from other people, especially strangers, very intrusive and uncomfortable.

 

Bid

[bid]

I feel an outsider looking in on the world a lot. im on the outside just watching rather than participating.

 

The phrase 'on the outside looking in' is one I used about myself, and then my son, long before I had heard about AS.

 

Bid

[Frangipani]

But I feel you are ascribing NT imperatives to everyone...

 

If I don't smile, it's probably because I haven't even registered the other person, and if I have registered them and I don't smile it's because I don't want to and find them smiling at me extremely intrusive

 

Certainly for me, my autism makes social approaches from other people, especially strangers, very intrusive and uncomfortable.

 

Bid

 

Its a great topic as I am learning things about your world 'AS' and I am describing my world 'NT' so you understand what makes me tick and vice versa. From what 'experiences' have shaped each of us. At the same time thinking there is no right or wrong way of being. We are all individuals 'experiencing' a journey of 'life' and wherever you stand it's all good. It's what we each choose to make of it.

 

Fran

[bikergal]

I am happiest and feel safe in my internal world, but currently my visits to the external world make me happier. The external world has the potential to make me happier or extremely unhappy. Hope this doesn't offend anyone, but dd2 and I shared an observation recently whilst eating at a certain fast food restaurant I said that it felt like we were at the zoo, watching nt's interacting and doing nt things, dd2 agreed. I suppose it's the outside looking in thing. As a family we are rather quiet and still and not very spontaneous when out in public, so watching others do the things we find difficult is interesting.

[bid]

Hope this doesn't offend anyone, but dd2 and I shared an observation recently whilst eating at a certain fast food restaurant I said that it felt like we were at the zoo, watching nt's interacting and doing nt things, dd2 agreed. I suppose it's the outside looking in thing. As a family we are rather quiet and still and not very spontaneous when out in public, so watching others do the things we find difficult is interesting.

 

I often feel like this, especially when I'm waiting for littlest DS at his school...I watch all the other mums, and I wonder how they 'know' what to do in the sort of give-and-take of conversation...

 

Bid

[pearl]

I am happiest and feel safe in my internal world, but currently my visits to the external world make me happier. The external world has the potential to make me happier or extremely unhappy. Hope this doesn't offend anyone, but dd2 and I shared an observation recently whilst eating at a certain fast food restaurant I said that it felt like we were at the zoo, watching nt's interacting and doing nt things, dd2 agreed. I suppose it's the outside looking in thing. As a family we are rather quiet and still and not very spontaneous when out in public, so watching others do the things we find difficult is interesting.

 

Or as Oliver Sacks describes it, an anthropologist on Mars. I've always felt on the outside looking in tho I think I'm NT, so I dont think that can just be described as AS, perhaps just more prevalent in AS?

Edited February 29, 2008 by pearl

[Guest Lya of the Nox]

I suppose it's the outside looking in thing. As a family we are rather quiet and still and not very spontaneous when out in public, so watching others do the things we find difficult is interesting.

 

 

well i know i am not quiet,

but i do lots of people watching

tis fun

x

[smiley]

I feel there is me as in my thoughts, sensations and what's going on in me 'ead! This is the 'natural' me if you like.

Then there's me as in my body, where it is, in relation to everything else iyswim.

Then there's me - the person as a whole.

 

I'm normally the first - can do the second for a while when needed. Third only with people who totally accept me.

 

Make any sense? Sense of self in relation to 'other' self

 

Probably confused it even more now - lol!

[warrenpenalver]

I agree with those first 3 smiley, i have all them.

 

But its also an internal world that i have that exists almost seperately to the real world. As in it has paralells with this world ie, im in it as are some of my friends etc and the physical locations are the same as this world, but what happens in them is different. IE good things happen etc etc etc - life is good rather than rubbish.

 

For example i spent most of this afternoon in my internal world living a different life. I think its more than day dreaming though.

[ScienceGeek]

Hope this doesn't offend anyone, but dd2 and I shared an observation recently whilst eating at a certain fast food restaurant I said that it felt like we were at the zoo, watching nt's interacting and doing nt things, dd2 agreed. I suppose it's the outside looking in thing. As a family we are rather quiet and still and not very spontaneous when out in public, so watching others do the things we find difficult is interesting.

 

Thats what the external world feels like to me. I quite like observing NT interraction I find it ever so fascinating and also confusing at the same time. Even if I am physically there it still feels like I'm not quite there if you get what I mean. Like I'm watching myself and I'm in one bubble and the others in another.