How comes Teachers are not 'allowed'

[llisa32]

Morning all

 

I'm not especially annoyed....but I guess I teensy bit peeved......

 

I bumped into the headmaster this morning and he asked how things were going...I said that we'd got a diagnosis over the holidays of High Functioning Autism.

 

He then said 'Ah....yeah....that makes a lot of sense'...followed up by .'yeah...that makes sense, we're not 'allowed' to say anything, but that makes sense to me'

 

Now....if he had said something it would have saved me a fair bit of having to put up with some peeps treating me like I was neurotic!....but I'm curious.....why can they not 'voice' their suspicions to the parents??

[noogsy]

it is true teachers are not allowed to diagnose. but when my littly was in primary one a very experienced deputy head who was about to retire. said to me that she thought my little boy should see a dr. she suggested he be referred to camhs...for years i would mention it to people that she had led me....lol..and it was met by frowning. it was years later i realised she had helped me and went against the rules....i think because she was retiring that she was past caring what the bosses thought....it is i think ridiculous that the people in the know cant refer kids to specialists. and that they are left in the hands of psychologists, and only when kids start to wreck classrooms and cause problems are the seen my someone else...what about all the wee quiet asd kids....it drives me mad and is wrong... and i think is all about saving money....noogsy steps off her soap box and takes a bow..... love from noogsy

[Flora]

I'm not sure that they are not allowed to voice their suspicions or opinions. It was Bill's year 3 teacher who set the ball rolling for BOTH of my boys to be assessed for autism. In fact I used to be quite defensive towards some of the things she said during that time, but I would now like to go back and thank her for it, because since I joined this forum I realise that I was one of the very few lucky one's who didn't have to struggle to get a dx, it was very straight forward. I realise now that's not the norm but at the time did not know that.

 

Flora XXX

[baddad]

Hmmm... think of a scenario where the parent is really in denial about their child's problems, and a teacher voicing an opinion that there is something 'wrong' with that child (the 'wrong' of course, being from the parent's perspective of disability rather than any judgement by the teacher or anyone else involved)...

 

Not a pretty thought

 

Not sure that 'blanket policies' would be the answer - it seems much more logical to weigh up each situation on the basis of the relationship between school/parent and whether the parent is actively seeking advice etc - but one 'mistake' and I could understand why a blanket policy might be the knee jerk reaction.

 

Whatever experience of ASD's a teacher might have they are not trained in diagnostics... I think it's reasonable to raise concerns, and to highlight areas of difficulties the child might be encountering, but personally I get really annoyed if I hear of teachers 'making' a diagnosis, because I think this can set up dangerous preconceptions in the parent's mind that actually get in the way of effective diagnosis.

Autism is a 'buzzword' at the present time, and it's very evident from posts we get here in the education thread that there are 100's of teachers out there who 'think' they know what it means but really haven't got a clue beyond the basic stereotypes... ask them for details (rather than a 'glossery of terms) of conditions like dyspraxia; fragile-x - even external signs of abuse - etc etc etc - all of which share 'elements' of autistic behaviour - and they gulp like fish out of water!

 

 

BD

[Mumble]

I didn't know we weren't

 

I certainly did (in the independent sector) - I wouldn't just go it alone, but if I had concerns about children in my class (as I did) I would approach the SENCO, school nurse, deputy etc. depending upon the nature of the concern and take advice as to whom should broach the concerns with the parents, whether it should be one-to-one, face-to-face or by letter.

 

If the head teacher has concerns, he should have definitely said something to you.

 

And didn't the school raise the issue of dyslexia with you - why should HFA be different?

 

When I was at school, the teachers repeatedly spoke to and sent letters to my parents about their concerns about me and suggested referral to an ed. psych. It didn't make any difference, but they did say something...

 

EDIT - just read BD's - I think that's the different - raising concerns and dx-ing. No a school shouldn't be doing the later, but the former, definitely.

Edited February 27, 2008 by Mumble

[llisa32]

I guess because I'd already voiced my concerns and started the ball rolling regarding diagnosis he felt he didn't 'need' to voice his concerns.

 

I think it peeved me this morning cos just a 'I think you're doing the right thing seeking a diagnosis' would have made a lot of difference along the way.

 

Difficult to know wether or not they would have 'suggested' something had I not already voiced my concerns...just wondered if there was a 'rule' as such.

 

Completely understand where Baddad's coming from...tricky one really

[baddad]

Oooh - just remembered something else I meant to say!

 

I know parents who've absolutely BATTLED with senco's/heads etc to get support in their efforts for statements/dx's etc, and been repeatedly rejected because the senco says 'I can't see any problem'...

THEN - when they've got the dx the senco/head says 'Well there you go - that's no surprise to any of US is it!'

 

Hindsights brilliant - you can always be 100% right!

 

[pearl]

I can remember being absolutely furious with JP's headteacher, when, just 3 weeks after he started school, he came out with "I think he might be autistic". I said I didnt realise he was a doctor as well as a teacher, & stormed off.

 

Then I returned the next day & apologised, & said I'd gone off the deep end because he was voicing what I was thinking. He apologised too & said he'd spoken out of turn, & we were bestest friends after that, both working towards getting JP statemented.

 

Its a minefield.

[Karen A]

Oooh - just remembered something else I meant to say!

 

I know parents who've absolutely BATTLED with senco's/heads etc to get support in their efforts for statements/dx's etc, and been repeatedly rejected because the senco says 'I can't see any problem'...

THEN - when they've got the dx the senco/head says 'Well there you go - that's no surprise to any of US is it!'

 

Hindsights brilliant - you can always be 100% right!

 

 

BD....that is not hindsight....can you not see the pound signs flashing

[justamum]

teachers should be able to voice their concerns but they are not qualified to diagnose ...which far too many of them do which then goes on the child's record and you spend he next god knows how many years trying to get the RIGHT diagnoses on their file!

[bid]

Well, it was my DS' reception teacher who started the ball rolling, referring him to the school nurse because of he concerns.

 

Bid

[justamum]

and that is correct procedure because then the right path for diagnoses can be reached.

[Bard]

No teacher should diagnose, raise concerns yes.

However, considering that often you get a very uncomfortable reaction from the parent, sometimes hostile, many teachers think that they'll just keep a low profile. It's easier, why stand up and be a target?

In cases like these, as a non-specialist teacher, you don't get into trouble for doing nothing.

So well done to all those teachers who have put what they perceived the needs of the child to be above their own comfort.

[Bard]

there are 100's of teachers out there who 'think' they know what it means but really haven't got a clue beyond the basic stereotypes... ask them for details (rather than a 'glossery of terms) of conditions like dyspraxia; fragile-x - even external signs of abuse - etc etc etc - all of which share 'elements' of autistic behaviour - and they gulp like fish out of water!

BD

 

Now you know I love you dearly, and I'd run off with you at the drop of any hat you happen to be talking through at the time but...

the same holds true for many parents ( not on this forum but in my wider experience in the NT world)

Most children won't learn to read and write fluently, or spell without some level of constant practice when young.

Some parents I have spoken to were surprised when I suggested trying that approach before going for a diagnosis of dyslexia, and couldn't give me any key indicators of dyslexia, other than not being able to spell or read very well.

That was in September, and the child in question is now peer-equivalent. So some parents can be fishy too.

[av16]

I didn't know we weren't 'allowed' to say anything either

 

I think in the best interest of any child I was teaching if I had concerns over anything affecting their learning I would say something to the parents. I would hope that I could point them in the right direction of finding out more if they wanted to. I have found it hard sometimes to pluck up courage to say to parents that I have a concern but I feel equally bad if I don't say anything.

 

Sometimes it's worked well; other times parents have chosen to ignore me. This is their right. I can feel ok that I've done my bit.

 

(There are ways of saying things of course and I know I'm not a Doctor and I don't diagnose; I point out what I see -gently)

[elun1]

If I have concerns about a child then I will certainly raise this with their parents. However I'd use my discretion about the best way to do this. After chatting it through with senco/head I'd ask for a chat with the parent(s) and would probably ask if they had any concerns before I voiced my own. Often that is enough for the floodgates to open. Then we will take it from there. It certainly isn't the case at any school I've worked in that concerns are not allowed to be raised. The opposite actually, but it should be done with sensitivity and discretion. As teachers then we can make make appropriate referrals but not diagnose which is quite right as we are not trained to do so

Elun xx

[llisa32]

Thanks all...my point this morning was that I was more peeved because I was the one that instigated diagnosis etc, and it would have been really good for me to have known at any poiint in the last year that the head shared the same thoughts.

 

As I'd already voiced my concerns I wasn't sure what would have been stopping him agreeing with me

 

I completely agree that it's wrong for teachers etc to 'diagnose' I just was amazed that he'd said he 'wasn;t allowed to say anything' - which in my circumstance meant that for whatever reason he wasn;t allowed to say what he thought it was. - if that makes sense!

[elun1]

That's a cop out on his part then Lisa. He is allowed to voice concerns - he wouldn't even have to be specific about them - but could offer full support in helping with referrals etc

Sorry you've had such a bad experience

Elun xx

[pookie170]

I have to agree with Elun, BD and all. I have to say that the mainstream teachers, SENs, headteacher etc who dealt with my Cal in primary one were excellent- they raised their concerns over C's behaviour with me (although they already knew I was deeply worried myself) and got the ball rolling on their part by getting the Ed. Psych involved. They also discussed my options with me- where I could turn for help and such- they were very clued up and supportive.

C's nursery school had been a VERY different kettle of fish,however, who kept schtum until 2 weeks before C's nursery year ended to say something. (They actually maintained all along that he was 'fine', despite my fears) At this point, in a cloakroom full of parents, his 'teacher' told me that they didn't think C would cope in mainstream ed, he probably had some kind of mental issue and that while he might benefit from and extra year at nursery, they couldn't (wouldn't, maybe?) take him back the next year as they were full.

 

I was not kind, that day.

 

But I cannot sing the mainstream school's praises enough. And BD is right.... Having worked in child ed. myself, I know first hand that some parents cannot handle hearing the news that staff have concerns about their child. I don't know about you guys, but personally speaking, even though I knew C had problems, when I had my suspicions confirmed I felt physically winded. Most parents rally, though, get to grips with the idea and then the whole dx process can get going. And some do ignore it- or maybe they just don't feel that the issues are a problem for them? As av16 said, that's their right.

 

I'd like to think that most teachers would raise concerns with parents, offer options and support etc, in other words get as fair a go as we were given.

I'm sorry that didn't happen for you Lisa, and anyone else who's had a raw deal with this- have a hug! <'>

Esther x

[baddad]

Now you know I love you dearly, and I'd run off with you at the drop of any hat you happen to be talking through at the time but...

the same holds true for many parents ( not on this forum but in my wider experience in the NT world)

Most children won't learn to read and write fluently, or spell without some level of constant practice when young.

Some parents I have spoken to were surprised when I suggested trying that approach before going for a diagnosis of dyslexia, and couldn't give me any key indicators of dyslexia, other than not being able to spell or read very well.

That was in September, and the child in question is now peer-equivalent. So some parents can be fishy too.

Shush - you're scaring me! Now opening sentence aside... yes, I agree totally that parents can be equally guilty... I've met several parents who are so single minded about their diagnosis of their children that nothing could disuade them from their conclusions. It's not a popular opinion (I know, 'cos i've seen the reaction when I've voiced it before!), but I do not believe that parents necessarily/automatically 'know best', and I think the correct protocols should always be adhered to in confirming diagnosis. That professionals can get this wrong does not automatically imply that parents/carers always get it right, and/or visa versa. The term is so overused/outdated now, but full, holistic assessment and clear definitions will always be the key, and while ASD's might present some rather unique 'complications' ( ) with the latter the former should be an imperative in every case...

 

L&P

 

BD (ducking again!)

[warrenpenalver]

Only people with correct qualifications should diagnose.

 

Suggesting potential problems and solutions is surely the job of every teacher????

 

Teachers see children for 5-6 hours a day both in social and educational settings and although not totally on an individual basis are well placed to see large differences between the child and his/her peers. 5-6 hours can be more than half the childs waking hours each day.

 

Yes they do not see the full spectrum of the childs behaviour, but then niether does a parent when a child goes to school. THence i think teachers have a valuable role to play in helping a child get assesed.

[justamum]

BD, not having a go but

I've met several parents who are so single minded about their diagnosis of their children that nothing could disuade them from their conclusions.

 

This is not a teachers job but a medically trained doctors job...I would never take a teacher diagnoses, concerns yes. But if they diagnose I go straight to a qualified medical professional. I have had several teachers diagnose my son. ALL WRONG despite written confirmation from a doctor stating this. Yet still they disbelieve it and continue down their blinkered line, then wonder why they hit trouble and as in my case actually write stuff to dispel any concerns as the doctor thoughts doesn't match their diagnoses.

 

There is no way I will agree that A is B when it's really C

 

The majority of parents do know best about their child, but a little help and guidence does not come a miss and can help them know their child better

[baddad]

BD, not having a go but

 

This is not a teachers job but a medically trained doctors job...I would never take a teacher diagnoses, concerns yes. But if they diagnose I go straight to a qualified medical professional. I have had several teachers diagnose my son. ALL WRONG despite written confirmation from a doctor stating this. Yet still they disbelieve it and continue down their blinkered line, then wonder why they hit trouble and as in my case actually write stuff to dispel any concerns as the doctor thoughts doesn't match their diagnoses.

 

There is no way I will agree that A is B when it's really C

 

The majority of parents do know best about their child, but a little help and guidence does not come a miss and can help them know their child better

 

Hi just a mum...

If you read my original post :

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.ph...st&p=200524

 

you'll see I said exactly the same thing about it not being a teacher's job (to dx)but a medically trained professionals...

The post you quote from, in response to bards, was a qualification of that to include parent's amateur diagnosis as unreliable (and potentially damaging) too. 'Knowing the child' can never compensate for a medical degree, professional expertise/knowledge and a full and accurate understanding of the diagnostic criteria used to make a formal diagnosis, whether the first hand knowledge derives from parenting or teaching the child. I'd even go so far as to say that it would be wholly inappropriate for a fully trained and qualified professional to diagnose their own child, because there are too many potential personal and internal conflicts and imperatives involved for 'clinical detatchment'.

Of course that's not to say that parent's (or teacher's, come to that) first hand knowledge isn't hugely important to the dx process, because it is, but the full assessment should be bigger than the sum of its parts, IYKWIM...

 

L&P

 

BD

 

(NB - to anyone who read this this morning - apologies! It was ritten in a wrush written in a rush and when I got back for another look seemed a bit 'terse', which it wasn't meant to be! So you're not going mad - I've 'tweaked it!)

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited February 28, 2008 by baddad

[lil_me]

Teachers can comment on the traits in a manner such as 'your son flaps his arms a lot' 'your son seems to be focused on one thing' for example but at no point should they say 'I think your son may have autism because of the behaviours he displays' because they are not qualified to comment.

 

There are only specific proffesionals 'qualified' to diagnose a child as on the spectrum, I would also argue that they should receive more training before being able to label a child as the limited lectures they receive when qualifying on ASD and related conditions I have even heard them calling 'minimal'