Advice on anti-bullying

[purpleangel]

Hi,

 

My son is 14 and has Aspergers. He is in a mainstream school, and academically he does well. However, he has been bullied on and off for the last 3 years. It is mostly verbal stuff, but the kids concerned are in most of his classes, so he has them all day.

 

I have been into school, and they have dealt with specific incidents straight away, but as far as my son is concerned, this only makes things worse, as the kids know that he has told on them. At the moment, he will not let me go into school, and insists that he wants to deal with it (using violent methods, which I am trying to dissuade him from) but I do not know what to do for the best.

 

Does anyone have any advice????

 

Purpleangel xx

[tsmom]

We are in the same situation.I only wish i knew the answers.

[Kinda]

Purpleangel

 

This is difficult because you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. Firstly the behaviour is not acceptable and I know there are specific web sites that deal with this and will give you best advice and this is were I would start.

 

Try this link http://www.bullying.co.uk/?gclid=CNiF1tf32ZICFQhE1AodxTVL-g

 

For me I would go to the school on my own (not telling your son) and explain what is happening and your fears regarding your son's retaliation, then this is a school problem since you have advised them. I would also explain (probably over a number of sessions) to your son that the behaviour while not acceptable is not physical and therefore his proposed retaliation would be seen as worse than the bullies.

 

Also since it is non-violent then any retaliation may escalate the problem and this should be explained to your son, for me its a question of whether you son can ignore it and put up with it or if this is not acceptable to him then alternative actions need to be taken.

 

When lobbying the school I would tell them that the matter is not being resolved and this is not fair to your son and that their tactics need to change. I do think the bullying web sites would have more specific information for you.

 

PS I was bullied at work for some 3 years and I didn't realise at the time that it was bullying I just thought I was rubbish at my job and it was only when I went on a bullying web site I realised what was going on. I now know I'm actually very good at my job but it has been a long journey.

Edited April 14, 2008 by Kinda

[KarenT]

Try a book called Bullies Bigmouths and So Called Friends. There are lots of tips in there for making yourself less of a victim, building self-esteem, and deciding when to talk to a third party about being bullied. J's only 9 but he too used to favour violent aggression and revenge when he was picked on, this has helped him find other ways of dealing with it.

 

Sometimes I think it's pointless trying to deal with it through school. Low-grade bullying often isn't taken seriously enough, and ultimately it's about self-management for your child without involving the authorities.

 

Karen

x

[Kinda]

I also agree with everything KarenT has suggested.

[justamum]

This one of the reasons why I will not be putting my son through secondary school.

 

The book is a good idea and also telling the school that the problem has not gone away and they need to deal with it more efficiently.

 

Also bullies only bully because deep down they are COWARDS. They would never bully someone who was physically (or mentally) equal or bigger than themselves. They rarely do it on their own...have to have their mates with them for back up.

 

No matter how 'trivial' bullying is it is still a matter for the school to deal with whilst he is in their care. It is NEVER his fault. 'Low grade bullying' is bullying and ALL bullying is wrong and it hurts just as much as a physical punch. It is the bullies not the victim that should be 'educated'.

 

However one thing he could try to take the power away from these bullies is to not react to them, don't get upset, don't angry. A simple 'who cares' and walk away take the power away from them and your son has taken control.

[baddad]

Also bullies only bully because deep down they are COWARDS. They would never bully someone who was physically (or mentally) equal or bigger than themselves. They rarely do it on their own...have to have their mates with them for back up.

 

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh...........

 

Ouch......

 

For anyone who's child has been accused of bullying (and before you jump to conclusions that's not the case with Ben) that's a real kick in the teeth, if you'll excuse the pun.

There are all sorts of reasons why kids might bully, but i suspect cowardice is pretty low down on the list. As for picking on someone mentally or physically bigger than themselves - i think you've answered your own question: they go in mob-handed.

Sometimes what's perceived as bullying arises from a lack of understanding or inappropriate responses to the 'hurt' that lack of understanding engenders. Our own (autistic) kids, before they are enabled to better understand what's happening, may well fall into this trap.

Sometimes it can arise from a need for acceptance - so desperate to 'fit in' that they do what they think others expect of them.. again, an area ripe for exploitation among the autistic population...

Other children may be desperately unhappy - have so little in their own lives to feel good or confident about that the only way they can feel 'good' about themselves is to transfer that hurt on to others as a temprary respite...

Kids also learn by example, so if bullying is a strategy they see in their own lives (at home or within their wider social networks) as a 'working model' and the behaviour is accommodated or reinforced by that environment without sanction then it will become their norm too...

Of course, some kids do just appear to be 'nasty by nature'... maybe they are? Who knows? I think (hope), though, it's a very small minority, because they really are the dangerous ones within our society. I think also that their nature will arise more from internal influences (physiological difference or chemistry) rather than the external ones touched on above...

 

 

 

BD

[Karen A]

Try a book called Bullies Bigmouths and So Called Friends. There are lots of tips in there for making yourself less of a victim, building self-esteem, and deciding when to talk to a third party about being bullied. J's only 9 but he too used to favour violent aggression and revenge when he was picked on, this has helped him find other ways of dealing with it.

 

Sometimes I think it's pointless trying to deal with it through school. Low-grade bullying often isn't taken seriously enough, and ultimately it's about self-management for your child without involving the authorities.

 

Karen

x

 

I think it is always worth trying to deal with even low-grade bullying through the school if only to record your concerns for future reference.

Last year my elder [NT] son was in year 6 at primary school.

He is intelligent,articulate socially very capable,popualar and competent.

From January until Easter he was subjected to so called ''low grade verbal bullying''.

He did not tell us at the time and I have only found out in the last month how badly impacted he was.

He returned to school after Easter and had a panic attack.

He became so anxious that he hardly managed a full week at school between Easter and leaving primary school

He has now settled into Secondary school following excellent support from a secondary school SENCO and clinical psychology input from Camhs.

Primary School did nothing apart from threaten us with EWO due to none attendance....oh and willingly made arrangements for DS to sit his SATS because he was expected to get level 5s.

I have subsequenltly found that another child was being bullied...but a culture of allowing ''low-level bullying'' to continue whilst describing it as ''lads being lads'' contributed to no action being taken.

I as an adult have been subjected to what I can only descibe as verbal bullying by the Head Teacher at the same school.

I would never expect my child to self-manage and not involve the authorities.

Yes he has learned strategies to self-manage.However our DS is also aware that we will support him in involving school if that is needed.

I should add that I would not talk to the school without either of our son's being in agreement though.Karen.

[bid]

My three eldest have all been bullied, my DD#1 really seriously.

 

In all the cases the child doing the bullying had real problems at home of one sort or another.

 

Poor comfort I know for the bullied, but while the school was doing their stuff, I did try to explain to mine that bullies are very unhappy inside and while what they do is very wrong, they are to be pitied more often than not.

 

Picking up on BD's comments, my DS#1 with AS did have a time at primary school when he thought the quite normal 'rough and tumble' of the playground was bullying.

 

Bid

[Karen A]

ACE produce a very helpful leaflet that can be downloaded on PDF....[tackling bullying]

http://www.ace-ed.org.uk/publications/shop/index.html

Karen.

[justamum]

Other children may be desperately unhappy - have so little in their own lives to feel good or confident about that the only way they can feel 'good' about themselves is to transfer that hurt on to others as a temprary respite...

 

oh yes BD that one has been used on me after making yet another complaint that my son was wrapped around a tree by 2 boys, stripped naked and made to sit on a drawing pin. Apparently had to feel sorry for these boys for attacking my son!

 

As for these boys? Well new head new tough rules and another school for their bad behaviour, and sorry I could not feel sorry for them whilst my son can home with over 200 bruise on his legs consitently, which all went away during school holidays and yet it didn't happen at school?

[pearl]

oh yes BD that one has been used on me after making yet another complaint that my son was wrapped around a tree by 2 boys, stripped naked and made to sit on a drawing pin. Apparently had to feel sorry for these boys for attacking my son!

 

As for these boys? Well new head new tough rules and another school for their bad behaviour, and sorry I could not feel sorry for them whilst my son can home with over 200 bruise on his legs consitently, which all went away during school holidays and yet it didn't happen at school?

 

I'm with you on that justamum. I usually try to be tolerant, but I was bullied as a child & so was JP, & I just can't be that understanding about it, I have an almost visceral response to it & was always interfering in the school playground when children were being bullied! I'm more concerned about my own child's problems than someone else's to be frank, especially when mine wouldnt have hurt a fly.

[bid]

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to sound 'preachy'...

 

But I do still feel strongly that we should try to have compassion for children who have hugely dysfunctional home lives while still having a zero tolerance for bullying.

 

Oh lord...I don't want to get involved in another argument, so scuttling out of this thread!!

 

Bid <'>

Edited April 14, 2008 by bid

[pearl]

Don't worry bid, I hadn't even seen your post!

[justamum]

Oh lord...I don't want to get involved in another argument, so scuttling out of this thread!!

 

Don't be so over reactive BD

 

I was merely pointing that I can not feel sorry for a bully as I seen the result done to my son, physcally and mentally. One may understand why SOME bully, but that as far as it goes for me. I am have no compassion for anyone beating up on my children regardless of background race or creed.

 

Your post was not preachy!

[bid]

Don't be so over reactive BD

 

And now I'm being mistaken for a beardy bloke of a certain age!

 

Bid

[Mumble]

And now I'm being mistaken for a beardy bloke of a certain age!

I was going to say it could be worse ... but then I couldn't think how.

[bid]

Does my beard look big in this?

 

[Mumble]

Does my beard look big in this?

I would answer, but I wouldn't want to be accused of bullying ...

 

Out of interest, can you still be clinically well dressed with a beard like that or would you automatically qualify for one of the other categories?

Edited April 14, 2008 by Mumble

[bid]

You'll have to ask the Man Himself!

 

Bid

Edited April 14, 2008 by bid

[baddad]

Hey up - there's a result! I annoy someone and bid ends up taking it on the chin for me

Boy, if i was the bullying kind i'd take pleasure in that (but, i'm not, so of course i don't, heeheehee )

Believe me, I wasn't defending bullies or bullying - I was just pointing out that it's a lot more complex than just 'they are cowards' and that knee jerk responses to complex situations don't offer long term solutions...

The point I was trying to make was the one Bid has reiterated:

 

But I do still feel strongly that we should try to have compassion for children who have hugely dysfunctional home lives while still having a zero tolerance for bullying.

 

and expand it to include some of the other reasons why bullying might occur...

 

one other thing, I noticed, though, is that again there seems to be an assumption that my 'tolerance' arises from ignorance of the realities of bullying...

I was merely pointing that I can not feel sorry for a bully as I seen the result done to my son, physcally and mentally

and

I'm with you on that justamum. I usually try to be tolerant, but I was bullied as a child & so was JP, & I just can't be that understanding about it

 

If you look at my post again, I said:

 

For anyone who's child has been accused of bullying (and before you jump to conclusions that's not the case with Ben)

...

 

I didn't say he hasn't been the victim of bullying, and I don't base my views exclusively on Ben's experiences either... I know plenty about bullying, absolutely heaps about bullying... but I try to keep that in perspective rather than making monsters out of children who might be dealing with stuff that's far far worse in the only way they know how. Maybe someday that 'monster' child will be mine - and how on earth can I have expectations about how people respond to him if i'm so willing to cast stones at others?

 

BD

 

PS: Ask the man himself about beards? Well, me or baggsy, apparently

[Mumble]

You'll have to ask the Man Himself!

Baggy, can you still be clinically well dressed with a beard like that or would you automatically qualify for one of the other categories?

 

ooohhh, BD, you got in there before me....

Edited April 14, 2008 by Mumble

[Kinda]

Another link

 

http://www.bullyoffline.org/schoolbully/school.htm (if you get a chance read the site as there are some interesting articles) not sure I agree with all of it though.

 

and this is a little bit about my own case of being bullied

 

http://www.bullyoffline.org/cases/case56.htm

 

This was about 7 years ago and I was under treatment for 2 years and what amazed me was that I thought the treatment from work colleagues I was getting twas because I was rubbish at my job when in fact I was good at my job and that was part of the reason for the treatment. At the second company I uncovered a lot of financial wrong doing but I did get a financial settlement in the end after being off work for 6 months and told at one stage I would not work again.

 

Now I have a good job and I've been told by my boss that I have a unique talent!!!!! which explains to me why the treatment I got went on. I think the amazing thing for me was that I didn't realise it was bullying, especially when people couldn't be seen talking to me and you end up believing the criticism. I do think it has had a long term affect on me which means I'm easily stressed.

Edited April 14, 2008 by Kinda

[warrenpenalver]

Verbal bullying is very hard to deal with because it requires teachers or people who will help to be in the right place at the right time. physical bullying is slightly easier when youve got bruises and hence evidence.

 

I was unlucky enough to have both verbal and physical bullying at school as well as a bit of both in the workplace (mainly verbal though).

 

Probably not what most parents want to hear, but quite frankly the only way i stopped the physical bullying was by lashing out in defence. Id done that in every school ive been to, eventually theyd push me to breaking point and i "lose it" totally and fight back completely out of control. Obviously this id dangerous!! the last time i lost it like that i was 15 and ended up hitting the bully with a plastic school chair repeatedly until restrained. Imagine if id been in PE and had a cricket bat.......not good.

 

What did work that was sensible and not too dangerous was after that i learnt taekwondo which was good for helping my appalling co-ordination and also means people left me alone after they realised i could defend myself should i choose to. Martial arts can be good like that as they also teach control and are a good activity that doesnt require complex social interaction beyond kicking hell out of your sparring partner. Also the repitive nature and the fact your achieving your own goals rather than teams.

 

Verbal bullying in my experience is much much harder as you need to be taken seriously by teachers and they need to catch them in the act otherwise the repurcussions mean things get worse. Trying to "outwit" them is virtually impossible as you often cannot think fast enough to do so, and even if you had the mental skills and power of expression, chances are you will not be in the right frame of mind to say it anyway!!!! I imagine trying to outwit a verbal bully is hard for anyone and may well be impossible for someone with social difficulties on top of the bullying.

 

Complete indifference and total ignoring of them can work sometimes but the problem is the words they say always seem to be just the right words to cause instant upset so it takes a lot of practice to achieve this. The other problem with indifference is some of the bullys expect and need a reaction to get thier satisfaction and will just become more aggresive and verbal or even physical until they get the response they want.

 

Although i agree with baddads comments about some children bullying others because of thier own problems be it home or else where, that in my opinion in no way excuses the bullying. from a victim of bullying perspective my reply to that is "so what?", harsh maybe but ultimately its the schools/social services, bullys family problem to change the bullys behaviour.

[Tally]

I think bullies commonly go for people who are better than them. Someone who lacks confidence in a certain ability, who sees another person being better at that particular thing, will commonly attempt to make their "rival" look bad in order to make themselves feel good. I recently had a problem with a new colleague who was extremely fearful of getting sacked. He constantly criticised my work and made false allegations about me to my boss. When he saw I had the self-confidence (that he lacked) not to feel threatened by his behaviour, his bullying escalated.

 

It's difficult to feel sorry for a person who does abhorrent things, but I think it could actually be empowering to tell a victim that their tormentor behaves the way they do because they are very insecure. I think this is what many people are trying to do when they say that bullies are cowards, but that's not really a very good way of handling it. It certainly doesn't mean the victim should ever be made to feel that their suffering is irrelevant by comparison.

[pearl]

Does my beard look big in this?

 

 

Why are you disguised as Mr Pearl, bid?

 

BD, I know you are right. One of the kids who made JP's life a misery had an awful dysfunctional home life. BUT, bottom line, its JP I care about, not him. And he couldnt play outside for two years because of the way he was treated by this boy. Three cheers in our house when he got expelled from school & moved 200 miles away to live with his dad.

 

I would love to be big enough to care about what happens to him, but I don't. I'm just glad he is out of our lives & bothering someone else. I'm not proud of the way I feel, but I won't deny it just to feel better about myself.

[warrenpenalver]

pearl youve no reason to not be proud of yourself. your NOT a superhuman. you can NOT save and care for everyone.

 

we can only care for our "nearest and dearest" which is where i think the phrase originates from.

[bid]

Why are you disguised as Mr Pearl, bid?

 

No, no...I have been mistaken for BD

 

From behind we are practically indistinguishable...

 

Bid

[smiley]

Just to confuse things further - and get further away from the original question.........

 

What can i do to help M recognise bullies? He is bullied, but doesn't recognise it. His school are very vigilant and do try to keep an eye on things. But i don't know how to equip him.........??

 

Example - M kept telling me a child was tickling him and he didn't like it. I spoke to school, we worked on personal space etc etc etc........ Then i happened to see the child 'tickling' M - he was punching M in the tummy and saying 'This tickles, remember M'. Lots of similar things have happened, most thankfully not so violent - but all very confusing for monkey.

[baddad]

BD, I know you are right. One of the kids who made JP's life a misery had an awful dysfunctional home life. BUT, bottom line, its JP I care about, not him. And he couldnt play outside for two years because of the way he was treated by this boy. Three cheers in our house when he got expelled from school & moved 200 miles away to live with his dad.

 

Hi pearl... I know exactly how the above feels. We moved here in 2000. We have a small 'green' outside where all the other kids play. Ben has watched them in good weather now for 8 years, and we have both cried our eyes out over the unfairness of the situation. He is the only child who doesn't get invited/doesn't get the opportunity to play, and if he ventures out there with other kids who come to visit us he will be bullied. I've lost it a couple of times with the parents, and occassionaly given the kids a gobful, but at the end of the day I look at the kids, and I look at the parent's who have no interest in them whatsoever, who never take them out, who only really speak to them when they are shouting at them and who offer them none of the love, security, consistency and appreciation that Ben has and think about that... The parent's seem to resent the fact that they have these kids and project every piece of that resentment on to the kids, but simultaneously blame everyone and everything else for the way their children have turned out...

Those kids have that small patch of grass, the vocabulary's of navvies and nothing else. Bullying is handed down from the parents to the children to the family pet or anyone else they feel is vulnerable enough not to hurt them back because, ultimately, they need something in their lives that doesn't hurt...

I'm not offering that as a justification for bullying, and I do, completely have a 'zero tolerance' attitude to what they do - but unfortunately i'm not the one empowered to deliver any sanctions and boundaries. From the odd 'run-in' I have had with parents, I know that any attempt to curb the behaviours is more likely to provide reinforcers, or, if the parents actually do take any sort of responsibility, make things worse for the kids, and, ultimately, create even more resentment towards Ben...

I'll not begin to pretend that I always see things that way - when they're making Ben unhappy I would quite happily add to their misery if it kept them away from him... but when we are 'bumbling along nicely' and we're off to the park or the coast or his golf or for a walk in the woods in the snow or... and they're there, on that patch of grass when we leave, and they're there on that patch of grass when we come home I really do find it hard to work out who the 'victims' are...

I don't know if that's caring about them, as such, but i do know it's complicated

 

 

PS: Just seem warren's post...

 

we can only care for our "nearest and dearest" which is where i think the phrase originates from

 

God, I hope not... 99.9% of the world's problems arise from thinking like that!

Edited April 14, 2008 by baddad

[bid]

I know I said I was leaving this thread, but I want to post this as I feel so strongly about it.

 

I hope it can be accepted in the spirit in which it was made...I'm honestly not trying to be preachy or smug

 

I think all of us on this forum are struggling for compassion and understanding for our children and ourselves from a whole lot of people other than just our 'nearest and dearest'.

 

From wanting shoppers to stop the negative comments when our child is having a meltdown, to fighting for adequate provision from education, health and SS, and, and, and...

 

If we want others to offer compassion, support and understanding, surely we should be trying to offer the same things to others, especially other children?

 

Bid

Edited April 15, 2008 by bid

[warrenpenalver]

I'm not offering that as a justification for bullying, and I do, completely have a 'zero tolerance' attitude to what they do - but unfortunately i'm not the one empowered to deliver any sanctions and boundaries. From the odd 'run-in' I have had with parents, I know that any attempt to curb the behaviours is more likely to provide reinforcers, or, if the parents actually do take any sort of responsibility, make things worse for the kids, and, ultimately, create even more resentment towards Ben...

I'll not begin to pretend that I always see things that way - when they're making Ben unhappy I would quite happily add to their misery if it kept them away from him... but when we are 'bumbling along nicely' and we're off to the park or the coast or his golf or for a walk in the woods in the snow or... and they're there, on that patch of grass when we leave, and they're there on that patch of grass when we come home I really do find it hard to work out who the 'victims' are...

I don't know if that's caring about them, as such, but i do know it's complicated

 

 

PS: Just seem warren's post...

 

 

 

God, I hope not... 99.9% of the world's problems arise from thinking like that!

 

BD youve just made my point (if i made it correctly in first place), none of us are niaive enough to think that the bullies are just evil and as you say in reality have screwed up childhoods and bad parenting themselves, BUT you do not have the time or energy to fix thier problems, most parents have just enough energy and time to cope with thier own children let alone others. Hence why you have to look after your own childs interests. Thats what i mean by nearest and dearest. in an ideal world you could have time to help the bullies see the error of thier ways, or the schools and social services would do this for you, but sadly this isnt the case.

 

I know I said I was leaving this thread, but I want to post this as I feel so strongly about it.

 

I hope it can be accepted in the spirit in which it was made...I'm honestly not trying to be preachy or smug

 

I think all of us on this forum are struggling for compassion and understanding for our children and ourselves from a whole lot of people other than just our 'nearest and dearest'.

 

From wanting shoppers to stop the negative comments when our child is having a meltdown, to fighting for adequate provision from education, health and SS, and, and, and...

 

If we want others to offer compassion, support and understanding, surely we should be trying to offer the same things to others, especially other children?

 

Bid

In an ideal world bid that would be great, but also ultimately parents will stand up for the rights of thier own child more than another, slightly selfish maybe but we all are in some ways.

 

 

me thinks this thread needs bunnies

 

:robbie: :robbie: :robbie: :robbie: :robbie:

[Canopus]

I don't subscribe to the view that bullies are cowards or jealous. There are people out there with a vindictive attitude and a chip on their shoulder that get their way in life by beating up others. In the future these people are likely to go round mugging grannies or clamping cars.

 

Some bullies work under order of staff or even people outside of school. If they bully then they are given rewards often as extra rights and privileges. This system happened at my residential school where the head and some of the carestaff identified "hard" kids and used them to do the kicking and punching that they could not legally do themselves.

[justamum]

Some bullies work under order of staff or even people outside of school. If they bully then they are given rewards often as extra rights and privileges

 

absolutely! Lolly pops in my sons bullies case

[Karen A]

pearl youve no reason to not be proud of yourself. your NOT a superhuman. you can NOT save and care for everyone.

 

we can only care for our "nearest and dearest" which is where i think the phrase originates from.

 

I think you are talking to the wrong people here.

Many many people on the Forum spend vast amounts of time supporting people that they have probably never seen and may never see.

If we only cared for our nearest and dearest...I for one would be sunk along with my family.

As for the Forum we would have all packed up long ago .

Some of us here no longer have the significant nearest and dearest to support us and are constantly greatful for a network of people who are committed to a whole range of things because they care.

Many of us rely on varying amounts of support from professionals who thankgoodness believe that sometimes even when people would love to care for their nearest and dearest they need external support.

What is more....very sadly for some here the nearest and dearest least understand the challenges some face.....Karen.

[Karen A]

I don't subscribe to the view that bullies are cowards or jealous. There are people out there with a vindictive attitude and a chip on their shoulder that get their way in life by beating up others. In the future these people are likely to go round mugging grannies or clamping cars.

 

Some bullies work under order of staff or even people outside of school. If they bully then they are given rewards often as extra rights and privileges. This system happened at my residential school where the head and some of the carestaff identified "hard" kids and used them to do the kicking and punching that they could not legally do themselves.

 

 

I believe very strongly indeed that even those young people with extremely difficult personal backgrounds who are violent in their teens should not be written off and demonised.If there is an expectation that ''in future these people are likely to go round mugging grannies '' when children are hardly out of nappies then that is what will happen.Karen.

[Mumble]

I think this is really difficult. I think, just like the struggle we're having on another thread with ring fencing or not services for autism, it's difficult to pigeon hole the perpetrators of bullying and say they do it because ...

 

There will be a whole variety of reasons, some obvious, some not. I think if we do say it's because of one thing, say problem-parenting, there's the risk (I realise no-one here is saying this, I'm just saying it's a risk, of the argument being turned the other way around. So for BD's comment:

 

who offer them none of the love, security, consistency and appreciation that Ben has and think about that... The parent's seem to resent the fact that they have these kids and project every piece of that resentment on to the kids

which makes sense, we just have to be careful that we don't then say that children who don't get love, etc. etc. will be bullies.

 

What do we do about bullies - I just don't know. I get bullied where I live by the other students I live with. I finally 'told on them' for want of a better phrase, and I thought things had got better. They had - for oooh, 4 days - and now we're back to square one, well actually square minus 10, because I now have individuals attacking me, rather than the group it used to be. Do I go back and 'tell' again so that the situation gets even worse or do I leave it in this bad state - I simply don't know. I do know that I'm really scared of these people and of how the situation might escalate. At the moment, whilst it's happening, I simply can't think, oh, they're cowards/had difficult kiddyhoods/think I'm better/whatever. I'm scared. That over-rides everything. To me, at the moment, all I can see is people who get humour from what they're doing to me, and laughter is supposed to make you feel better, so they're getting to feel better whilst I get to feel worse. Doesn't seem like a fair deal to me.

 

Smiley - does M feel physical pain? If he does maybe you could have some social story about what bullying is, and talk about getting hurt lots of times by the same person/people?

[baddad]

I think this is really difficult. I think, just like the struggle we're having on another thread with ring fencing or not services for autism, it's difficult to pigeon hole the perpetrators of bullying and say they do it because ...

 

There will be a whole variety of reasons, some obvious, some not. I think if we do say it's because of one thing, say problem-parenting, there's the risk (I realise no-one here is saying this, I'm just saying it's a risk, of the argument being turned the other way around.

 

Hi mumble - yes, that's one of the problematic things about 'forum' discussions generally, that individual points tend to move a thread in a specific direction and then that single point becomes the object under discussion rather than the broader picture...

My response about problem parenting was a perspective offered on the specific situation that pearl highlighted... earlier in the thread I offered other reasons why bullying might occur (a far from exhaustive list, but certainly highlighting how complex the whole subject is), and I ended the one you referenced with exactly that (it's complicated) point.

 

Again, it's pretty much what bid said above and what I said at one point in the other thread you mentioned:

This forum is, by definition, populated by a collection of people who have very real reasons for hoping that society will become more tolerant & understanding of behavioural differences and will work with people presenting (or presented with) behavioural/social 'challenges' to help them integrate successfully. IMO we have to 'practice what we preach'... that doesn't mean accepting anything that is harmful to others or excusing it (depending on the subject matter I'm regularly criticised for going too far the other way by not accommodating anti-social behaviour, which just goes to show how polarised and context specific expectations about tolerance can be!), but it does mean looking at it properly rather than making sweeping generalisations and assumptions and demonising people as a consequence of those prejudices...

 

So, in a nutshell, I totally agree with what you've said in the quotes above - it's complicated, and we need to look at all the angles rather than just one or two. I'm just a bit of a windbag, so use more words to say the same thing!

 

[oxgirl]

I always remember when Jay was at primary school there were two notorious kids in his year, the roughest, toughest, supposedly meanest, most streetwise kids in the school. They were constantly in trouble, constantly covered in bruises and dirt, they were always fighting, bullying everyone and picking on everyone in sight, they'd come into school with black eyes administered by older brothers/fathers, whatever. They were always in trouble at school, chastised constantly, disapproved of, punished, scorned and frowned at and rejected by all, left stuck sitting outside the head's office on a daily basis, etc. etc. everyone hated these kids, everyone was always angry with them.

 

I decided the only way to protect Jay from these lads, as both were in his class at one time or another, was to befriend them, I thought if I could get them to like me then they'd leave him alone. I started making a point of smiling at them, saying hi to them, waving at them, asking them how they were today and generally being really friendly to them. What I got back in return were lovely smiles and they were lovely with Jay too. They never, ever touched him or picked on him, in fact, one of them used to help him with his shoes and was really gentle with him and then he'd go back outside into the playground and fling some other poor kid on the floor.

 

I dunno what I'm trying to say really, other than I really felt for these lads, they didn't stand a chance, but they could have been lovely lads if they'd just had it different. I'm sure all the other parents of all the other kids gettiing flung on the floor by them and kicked wouldn't agree, but I really thought they had good hearts in there somewhere just yearning to come out if only they were given the chance. I saw one of them in town a few years ago, he looked like a very scary, mean and angry teenager and as I walked past I smiled at him and said, 'hi S****' and he gave me the most lovely smile, it almost broke my heart.

 

~ Mel ~

Edited April 15, 2008 by oxgirl

[Canopus]

I believe very strongly indeed that even those young people with extremely difficult personal backgrounds who are violent in their teens should not be written off and demonised.If there is an expectation that ''in future these people are likely to go round mugging grannies '' when children are hardly out of nappies then that is what will happen.Karen.

 

There are thousands of reasons why bullies bully but I hold the view that there are some genuinely vindictive people out there. Hitler and Jack the Ripper probably fit into this category.