Parents Evenings

[sesley]

P,can't be marked up or graded,he doens't fit the curriculum,they don't know how to connect with him, he is stronger and is getting aggressive,just because he gets frustrated that his work doesn't look perfect,so he either screws up his work or try to tear it up,he won't listen to instructions he doesn't want to hear them, nothing new then i have constant battles with him too over simular problems,he has potential they say,but thbey don't know how to tap into it,s so they have a consultation meeting with Autism person to get some directions i must admit i am waiting for them ro say he can't stay in that school anymore,because they can't cope. Coming away from the meeting we both felt that nothing positive was said.except P has potential, and oh they are going on a trip to the beach on the 19th one of us will have to go, of course i said, and he does love the bus ride i said, problem is P won't use the public toilets

[bikemad]

Aaawwww it is awfully upsetting isnt it when they dont say a positive word-my lads teacher is the same negative is her middle word. (hugz)

[hev]

stevens teacher who he had never once said a positive thing about him,yeah i know he had problems but if she could have said at least one positive thing among the negatives i would have felt so much better,i used to walk out of the meetings feeling so sad

[Enid]

I hate going to ds`s parents nights, when he was at primary, all 3 were there at same time and I always used to have the last appointment for him as other people used to listen to what was being said, it was soul destroying, especially when the others were usually ok, sometimes I chickened out! one night I said to his teacher after 10mins of negative negative, now can you say somehing positive about him! The thing is we all know our children are difficult at school, god do we know!!! but to sit on those stupid chairs with other parents of really GOOD children listening, well its more then should be expected of us, rant over now Enid

[cmuir]

Hi

 

I can imagine how you must have felt. I seem to have the opposite problem - school are very positive about my son. I know for a fact that they don't tell me 'like it is'. I bumped into his LA in the car park one morning. She advised me that whilst R is doing well, she envisages that he'll need 1-2-1 full-time support for the duration of his primary school years. He struggles with interacting with others appropriately, concentrating, being compiant, etc. Frankly, I believe her because I know how R can be at home (in fact, some people look at me in disbelief when I give them an insight at his school review meetings). I don't think she was simply trying to keep herself in a job (she herself has an autistic son). I must confess to actually wanting to hear negative stuff - what I mean is that I want to know what R struggles with because if everyone was open and honest then R would receive the right level of support. I guess whilst you must feel utterly deflated, it does sound like perhaps the school could be being entirely open which is no bad thing.

 

Chin up. I'm sure there are lots of positive things about your son - you know him best!

 

Caroline.

[CEJesson]

It was mildly humiliating for Mum at Parents evening because all of it would be concerning my 'unruly behaviour'.

[KarenT]

Same as cmuir - J's old school were so blissfully unware of autism that they couldn't relate to the negatives and they went mostly unreported. They could only focus on how academically able he was and the hideous behaviour in the yard and other unstructured situations never got mentioned unless I brought it up myself - it was always secondary to his classwork. I too always wanted them to tell me about the negatives because it would have shown some understanding, which we never got. Now, at his new school, it's been the other way around - more emphasis on how he's settling, acceptance that he's clever rather than obsessing with it, and very keen to discuss the behavioural aspects. The difference is that they acknowledge his autism as part of him rather than pretend it isn't there and ignore it.

 

Karen

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[CEJesson]

Same as cmuir - J's old school were so blissfully unware of autism that they couldn't relate to the negatives and they went mostly unreported. They could only focus on how academically able he was and the hideous behaviour in the yard and other unstructured situations never got mentioned unless I brought it up myself - it was always secondary to his classwork. I too always wanted them to tell me about the negatives because it would have shown some understanding, which we never got. Now, at his new school, it's been the other way around - more emphasis on how he's settling, acceptance that he's clever rather than obsessing with it, and very keen to discuss the behavioural aspects. The difference is that they acknowledge his autism as part of him rather than pretend it isn't there and ignore it.

 

Karen

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If only all institutions had policy like this

[Canopus]

I hold the stance that school reports and parents evenings exist as a mechanism to cover up the failings of teachers and enable them to offload the responsibility of making good any of their defects onto the kids and their parents.

 

Read through any school report any you will find references to problems that:

 

1. Should have been dealt with as and when they occurred rather than reporting them delayed until the end of a term.

 

2. Are issues that the parents have next to no control over and should be sorted out by the teacher.

 

Sometimes parents evenings are formed with the intention that the parents will give their kids a good hiding afterwards which will sort out most of their problems instantly.

[Bard]

I hold the stance that school reports and parents evenings exist as a mechanism to cover up the failings of teachers and enable them to offload the responsibility of making good any of their defects onto the kids and their parents.

 

Read through any school report any you will find references to problems that:

 

1. Should have been dealt with as and when they occurred rather than reporting them delayed until the end of a term.

 

2. Are issues that the parents have next to no control over and should be sorted out by the teacher.

 

Sometimes parents evenings are formed with the intention that the parents will give their kids a good hiding afterwards which will sort out most of their problems instantly.

 

I disagree!

 

Do you want me to email you sections of the detailed target sheets I write every term, and review for all children in my class?

Or should I merely videotape all the little meetings called by parents or myself to discuss where things are going wobbly and how we can fix the wheel before it comes off?

I'm sorry you had such a sh*tty time at school C, but I've never been, nor ever will be that sort of teacher. And neither are the numerous teachers that I call friends. But the only thing that might change your mind is having a year's secondment to my school. Well, maybe not change your mind, but force you to search for a less sweeping viewpoint of all teachers in all schools on every planet that ever existed. <'>

I wish I'd been your teacher. I'm serious.

Edited June 6, 2008 by Bard

[sesley]

thank you all for your symapthetic support,it seems we aren't alone,in our challenges!and its interesting ,reading CEJessons experiences he gives an insight to how P might be feeling

[baddad]

Ben's headmistress has been brilliant...

The senco and he 'clashed' until he he joined her class in year 3 and she started to understand HIM rather than thinking his autism defined him - she's been brilliant ever since.

The biggest problem, believe it or not, arose because of the highly trained specialist teacher in the language unit he used as the 'bridge' to access mainstream... there was not a single aspect of 'special needs' education she didn't know inside out/back to front/upside down and every which-way-from-friday. So of course, when that didn't work she took it personally (think about it - 'Im doing everything right and the child's not responding...hmmm...must be the kid...').So, all teachers are not equal, good or bad. And sometimes the ones who look best on paper (or do good PR with parents) are not the ones who get results from our kids. And sometimes the ones we think are gonna turn out bad turn out good Teachers! Tuh! Just like kids, really!

One other thing I'd add to the above - I went out of my way (and comfort zone) many, MANY times to get that kind of communication and rapport with the school. To get them to take me seriously as a parent I needed to take them seriously too. teachers! Tuh! Just like kids really

 

[Canopus]

I disagree!

 

Do you want me to email you sections of the detailed target sheets I write every term, and review for all children in my class?

Or should I merely videotape all the little meetings called by parents or myself to discuss where things are going wobbly and how we can fix the wheel before it comes off?

I'm sorry you had such a sh*tty time at school C, but I've never been, nor ever will be that sort of teacher. And neither are the numerous teachers that I call friends. But the only thing that might change your mind is having a year's secondment to my school. Well, maybe not change your mind, but force you to search for a less sweeping viewpoint of all teachers in all schools on every planet that ever existed. <'>

I wish I'd been your teacher. I'm serious.

 

You must work at a very progressive school. Sadly schools which use similar initiatives are few and far between. The "good hiding" approach is still the norm - certainly by most parents I have encountered in the past few years. Some parents I have met have complained to school governors about door locking which results in parents unable to enter the school to have a quick word with the teachers about matters. They have to formally book a meeting over a week in advance. There are often other parents around so matters are difficult to discuss in confidence.

[Bard]

We lock the doors too, it's part of keeping the children and the staff safe, along with ensuring that the school boundaries are hard to breech. Parents can ring up and ask to see a teacher at any time, and then we work out when it's possible. Always within the week, usually within the next couple of days. If a teacher's classroom door is shut, that means private, or we can use one of the offices.

At parents' evenings and when report writing, yes you can mention problematic issues, but there must always be either a positive or a way forwards. That's school policy, and one we all agree with. You never leave any family, parent or child despairing that there is no possible hope or light in the future. Why would anyone do that? I don't understand teachers who fail to see the connection between a happy child, a good parental relationship with the school and having an easier class to teach.

If you get things right, and fix problems before they grow, then it's more loving and more efficient. You don't have as many meltdowns or fights or out-of-control behaviour if you understand and try and preempt situations. Why would you not want to listen to parents give reasons and explanations?

 

We are also flexible in our approach, if something doesn't work after a reasonable period, then we look at alternatives, all sorts of alternatives, including ones that we've not tried before.

We aren't progressive, we're traditional in that the child's needs come first. My school is part of a support group of local schools that work the same way, and we meet termly to compare and learn from each other. Each meeting has a particular focus.

 

This is now my 23rd year, I've taught in a large number of schools and I've never had to put up with the sort of horrible negativity, disregard for parents, dislike of children and general nastiness that so many of you have had to put up with.

I couldn't bear to work in a school like the ones you are describing, I'd have left a long time ago. There are good schools and good teachers out there, and a lot of them. And if they can do it, then the rest have little excuse for not even trying to provide a better, individual and proactive service.

[Enid]

Well Bard I REALLY wished you had taught at my childs school, because every single parents night/meeting was negative and soul destroying and I came away torn between giving my son a good hiding/or keeping him at home with me for ever where no one could ever say mean things about him again/. Commonsense always prevailed, but as I have said in many posts I used to say at the end of endless tirades, now can you say something positive about my son Enid

[Canopus]

I don't understand teachers who fail to see the connection between a happy child, a good parental relationship with the school and having an easier class to teach.

 

Office politics I'm afraid. I have encountered teachers who have quit their jobs because they were constantly unable to offer kids the teaching styles that suited them best and the support they needed because it all fell foul of their superiors. They wanted to help kids learn in a happy environment rather than slavishly comply with bureaucracy. This also influenced what they wrote in their reports and said at parents evenings.

 

We aren't progressive, we're traditional in that the child's needs come first.

 

That is progressive. The traditional school system devised by the Victorians was based around discipline and obedience.

 

This is now my 23rd year, I've taught in a large number of schools and I've never had to put up with the sort of horrible negativity, disregard for parents, dislike of children and general nastiness that so many of you have had to put up with.

I couldn't bear to work in a school like the ones you are describing, I'd have left a long time ago. There are good schools and good teachers out there, and a lot of them. And if they can do it, then the rest have little excuse for not even trying to provide a better, individual and proactive service.

 

If you think my schools were bad then believe me that worse things have happened in schools in my lifetime.

[Flora]

My son's primary school call themselves 'progressive', 'holistic', and a whole load of other things. For your run of the mill child it's a good little school. And despite many clashes with them in the past, I like most of the teachers there as people. However, I had a running disagreement with them over their treatment of Bill when he was there. They told me he would 'never get a statement', and they laughed when I suggested that he needed a specialist placement. He now has both!!!

 

When there were quiet times and lulls in my long battle for Bill's provision, I have at times tried to get things sorted for Ben (who has specific learning difficulties with literacy and numeracy). When Ben was in year 4, during a concerted effort to get the school to address his learning difficulties, I was told by the HT (who is also the SENCO) 'don't worry, by the time he sits the KS2 SATs he'll get at least a level 3'. I knew this wasn't true but I had absolutely no way of proving it. However, in time the truth comes out and Ben has just done his SATs and is predicted to HOPEFULLY achieve a level 2 (yes 2!!!) in science and English, and he was disapplied from the maths SAT because he can barely add up and take away never mind do fractions and multipication etc.

 

My experience of state schools is that they lie through their teeth hoping that you'll just go away. Then when they can no longer lie (because the facts are undeniable) they say 'well we have got him to do the best he can do' and at neither end of that process can I prove otherwise. How do they know that he wouldn't have got higher levels if he had been given extra support and more specialised teaching for specific learning difficulties? They don't, and neither do I, because they didn't provide the opportunity for any of us to find out, but that's ok for them because after July he's no longer their problem.

 

Progressive? For some maybe, but not for either of my boys. I am very supportive of the school, Ben turns up on time every day, well rested, clean, and with a good breakfast inside him. We play our part, why can't they play theirs'?

 

Grrrrr.

Flo'

[baddad]

My guess is schools are much like any other place of work -

you get some workers who knock their socks off day in day out and others who are just clocking in and out... Some of the 'bosses' are good and some of the bosses are cr*p, and those attitudes have a big impact on the staff and working environment... Some of the customers are good customers, who are loyal to the 'brand' and do everything they can to support it, while others cherry pick what's on offer and consider that their needs are the be all and end all regardless of the impact servicing those needs has on the rest of the customer base...

At Ben's school there are undoubtedly more 'customers' in the latter category - slagging off every move the staff make and kicking up a fuss every time they feel their children have been 'wronged' in some way when in fact their children are being treated in exactly the same way as all the other kids in the school.

Maybe I'm really lucky - I dunno? That can't be all of it, because i know plenty of parents who haven't got a good word for the place, but my experience has been the opposite of many in that it's the unrealistic expectations of other parents - who perceive their own child's needs as the only factor for consideration - that have caused most problems. The most sickening thing I've ever witnessed in the school? A group of parents who banded together to start a petition to get a six year old child expelled for "bullying"

The leader of that merry band confronted the head with a demand - either you get rid of him or I'll take my daughter out of the school. The head asked her 'do you want me to ring round and see what other schools have vacancies?' That's when I knew I'd backed a winner

 

[Flora]

baddad, it's fab that your experience of your Ben's school is a good one. Fab for you and Ben.

 

I hope nobody was thinking I was saying ALL schools were bad by the way. I know they are not. My dd goes to a fantastic school and I haven't got anything but praise for the whole caboodle. The school that all my kids went to before we relocated was unbelievably good when it came to spotting and meeting the needs of kids with SEN.

 

I think baddad your view regarding 'customer bases' etc makes a lot of sense on the surface but is a bit simplistic and far too superficial an analogy in this case.

 

You said it yourself, that some parents kick up a fuss because they feel their child has been wronged, but in fact they were being treated the same as everyone else; however what I'm saying is that it is this homogenised (sp?) 'whole school' approach in mainstream education which makes it difficult for some kids with SEN to fit in and/or make progress. It may be the right approach for the majority and therefor it's unreasonable of anybody to expect it to change, but for the few that it 'wrongs' it can be devestating, believe me.

 

The primary school that my Ben's at have no children with statements and never have! What does that tell you? They've never ever put a child through the statementing process. However, they get money from the LEA for bike sheds, wild flower gardens, new flooring, decorating etc. The school is the best decorated and furnished school I've ever seen with beautifully landscaped grounds. 5 miles up the road in the big town there's another primary school where they have a few statemented kids etc but not a flower in sight and the paint is peeling off the walls. It doesn't take much working out.

 

We all have our own personal experience, and I personally don't think that ALL parents who complain or make a fuss are doing so because they consider 'their needs are the be all and end all regardless of the impact servicing those needs has on the rest of the customer base...' How do you know?

 

Flo' ps... edited to say that the bike shed I mention above wouldn't be out of place in disney land. It must have cost a fortune, and they already had a perfectly servicable (but less pretty) one. How many statements or SA+hours were forfeited to get the money from the LA for that I wonder?

Edited June 7, 2008 by Flora

[baddad]

We all have our own personal experience, and I personally don't think that ALL parents who complain or make a fuss are doing so because they consider 'their needs are the be all and end all regardless of the impact servicing those needs has on the rest of the customer base...' How do you know?

 

Hi flozza -

 

I don't! And i don't think ALL parents who complain are complaining unreasonably either. I certainly wasn't when i had my run ins with the teacher i mentioned, or the first two years with the senco!

 

I do believe, though, that parents like that are in the majority in many, many schools, and have read enough posts complaining about them to believe that's the 'rule' rather than the exception.

 

When I said about children being treated 'the same' I didn't mean that there should be no adjustment for individual needs, I meant that the expectations for the child (and of him/her) should be the same. Inclusion to me means exactly that... TBH, my decision that Ben's secondary education should be delivered in a specialist environment didn't arise from concerns about the abilities or 'good will' of the teaching staff, but from concerns about the attitudes and behaviours of other pupils and about class sizes and the inability of staff to teach ben in those kinds of environments etc, which have nothing to do with the 'school' whatsoever. I think the attitudes of other children are far more reflective of the attitudes of their parents than they are of the teaching staff, and that those very same attitudes undermine the efforts of the staff trying to control and teach in those oversized classrooms.

 

 

[Canopus]

My experience of state schools is that they lie through their teeth hoping that you'll just go away. Then when they can no longer lie (because the facts are undeniable) they say 'well we have got him to do the best he can do' and at neither end of that process can I prove otherwise.

 

I'm not sure about this. Some teachers at my residential school were very truthful but the head was a pathological liar who could make the biggest porkie sound like the truth to most parents and LEA reps. There were times when teachers tried to discuss things directly with my parents bypassing the head and the secretary. They mentioned things like not to tell the head or to use their home phone number, but this didn't impress my mother who couldn't understand the need for all this coverup so thought the teachers were playing some dishonest game.

[Flora]

Hi flozza -

 

When I said about children being treated 'the same' I didn't mean that there should be no adjustment for individual needs, I meant that the expectations for the child (and of him/her) should be the same. Inclusion to me means exactly that... TBH, my decision that Ben's secondary education should be delivered in a specialist environment didn't arise from concerns about the abilities or 'good will' of the teaching staff, but from concerns about the attitudes and behaviours of other pupils and about class sizes and the inability of staff to teach ben in those kinds of environments etc, which have nothing to do with the 'school' whatsoever. I think the attitudes of other children are far more reflective of the attitudes of their parents than they are of the teaching staff, and that those very same attitudes undermine the efforts of the staff trying to control and teach in those oversized classrooms.

 

 

 

HI baddad , I suppose it was the above bit where I'm getting confused. I think I was (in my head) going to the 'next stage', the stage beyond 'the expectations for the child should be the same'. I totally agree, on principle, that the expectations should be the same, not just as far as behaviour is concerned but also in achievement BUT only if the teachers are willing to use those expectations as a yard stick for measuring the success of inclusion. With Bill he was 'expected' to be the same as everyone else in cooperation and interaction etc and for him this led to one crisis after another because inclusion was failing for many reasons but NOTHING was ever done about it until it was way too late. With Ben it has been very different and the opposite way round if anything. He's a bright lad on a day to day basis, happy at school, well 'included', very sharp and doesn't miss a thing, but because he has specific learning difficulties his teachers' expectations of him for academic achievement were very low whereas I FEEL that given the right help support within lessons he could have achieved (at this stage end of KS2) more. My point being that the position of 'expectation' was reversed with both my boys in order to avoid spending money on support. The teachers expected Bill to to be able to fit and didn't think he needed any adaptation to achieve this (he did and you know the history of this), whereas with Ben it was me that had expectations that the teachers didn't think he could achieve one way or another and therefor they think they were right not to allocate money into resources that (in their opinion) would give the same result as they've had without those resources (and how can that ever be challenged now?). In both situations they've avoided spending money..... but my goodness they've got a lovely school (aesthetically) which all the kids can enjoy, and IMO that is at the expense of the kids with SEN within their establishment.

 

I'm not arguing with you, so please don't think I am, and to be honest I'm not even sure of the relevance of everything I've said (in relation to the topic), but I suppose what I'm highlighting is that it doesn't HAVE to be a BAD school or BAD teachers which makes a child fail, it also doesn't have to be bad or unreasonable parents who complain about it. In fact, I think my boys have been victims of a school which for the run of the mill child is excellent and well resourced; I don't see this as cooincidence I see the two points as inextricably linked.

 

Flozza

[KarenT]

I'm not sure about this. Some teachers at my residential school were very truthful but the head was a pathological liar who could make the biggest porkie sound like the truth to most parents and LEA reps. There were times when teachers tried to discuss things directly with my parents bypassing the head and the secretary. They mentioned things like not to tell the head or to use their home phone number, but this didn't impress my mother who couldn't understand the need for all this coverup so thought the teachers were playing some dishonest game.

 

 

 

Referring to Flo's post that you're quoting:

J's old school, the one he left last summer, was almost completely staffed by persistent liars from the top down, the Head being Queen Fibber. Over the four years he was there they repeatedly lied to me about incidents I knew J had been involved with and which proved he had problems at breaktimes and that he should have support allocated to him, but they continued to lie that such incidents hadn't happened even when I absolutely knew (from subtle discussions with other children) that they had. Sometimes they'd backpedal so hard they were struggling to stay upright, and couldn't keep their story straight. In essence I believe the gist of this was that they didn't want children with diagnosed SN in their school because it meant they'd have to think outside the box and use alternative strategies to support them, and it would cost money to draft in help. At one meeting, in which the Head described J as 'the most aggressive child with AS I've ever encountered' and questioned whether his needs could be met in any mainstream school and shouldn't he be in special provision, then went on to explain why she couldn't possibly provide 1-1 yard support "on my budget", despite the fact that he was kicking the daylights out of anyone who came near him in the yard. OTOH there was support for another boy who was showing distress in a more conventional manner, by curling up in a corner and crying.

 

This is what I most appreciate about J's new school. Don't get me wrong, it's not perfect and they don't tell me as much as I'd like to know and they've handled some situations in ways I'd that I'd have preferred to be done differently, but they are at least honest and if there are problems they will admit to them instead of pretending they are not there. A few weeks ago, when J was still very settled, the Head admitted to me that she'd watched him and thought 'not much wrong there' but since he's had a few blips recently she's fully accepted that there IS cause for concern. That would never have happened at the old place, where their attitude would have been (and had, on similar occasions) "well, he can cope if he wants to".

 

Sorry, I've rambled, but it still gets my goat how both my son and I were abused by that place - especially as since then they've had such an glowing OFSTED ('outstanding' in almost every category) that you can almost see it from space.

 

I'll go and crawl under a duvet now...

 

Karen

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