Stephanie Report post Posted July 3, 2008 Having just nearly lost our youngest ... he has been very sick in hospital the past few weeks with pneumonia and various associated problems (he's on the mend!), it highlighted to me the lack of empathy shown by our 7 year old son with High Functioning Autism. Basically he missed his brother but didn't feel sorry for him or anything ... he was more concerned with when I was going to be home to pack his lunchbox properly rather than show concern for his brothers illness. He loves his brother to bits (always talking about him etc and showing him off to the kids at school etc, saying how cute he looks in certain clothes blah blah) Also his lack of sympathy was highlighted in his school report. He knows how he should feel, why people might be sad at certain things but he can't express any empathy of his own - he isn't nonchalant or anything, he just seems to not know how to react properly. If I said "Jenny's cat's died" he would say "oh, that's sad" but wouldn't feel sad like I would. He loves us - his parents and his brother quite openly and I know he has feelings of love for us, but with other people/animals he just doesn't have it. He seems to have a lot of empathy for himself ... he is aware of his own feelings (can't always express them), but not other peoples. How does this move forward in time, is empathy something you can kind of learn, how do autistic adults cope with it and how do they actually "feel". I get him books from the library on feelings and emotions ... is there anything else I could get?? Any book recommendations? Any feedback appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bid Report post Posted July 3, 2008 (edited) First of all, very sorry to hear your littlest has been so unwell, but really glad to hear he's on the mend <'> I actually think your lad is doing very well...7 is still very young. But he's showing his love for his immediate family, and I think any child would find it quite hard to 'extend' that to other people at his age. I would encourage him to continue with this, and maybe work on why he 'loves' someone else close to him first, maybe a grandparent, before worrying about the wider world! I also think that when children appear to lack empathy when someone is unwell (especially a parent...there's another thread about that around somewhere) it's because they are probably scared? Good luck Bid Edited July 3, 2008 by bid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mumble Report post Posted July 3, 2008 Hi - I'm going to answer this honestly, so I'm apologising in advance in case my honesty upsets other people If I said "Jenny's cat's died" he would say "oh, that's sad" but wouldn't feel sad like I would. I've read and re-read this several times. I can't work out why you would feel sad if the cat wasn't your own and you had no real connection to/with it. Maybe that answers your question about empathy in ASD adults For instance, I know from the posts on here that Bard's son is really attached to his cat. If the cat died, he would be upset, I could say that's sad (because I've learnt that that's what you say, not that I know why), but I wouldn't feel sad, because I've never met the cat and it has nothing to do with me. he is aware of his own feelings (can't always express them), but not other peoples. You're right about the not expressing part in part - for me I have feelings, but don't know what they are / can't label them - so I have a very limited vocabulary when someone says "How are you?" (that's after I've tried to work out if they are actually asking that and want to know or if it's the 'hello' equivalent). I'm really not sure how people know what other people are feeling - if they're obviously crying and their mouth is turned down then they are sad, but otherwise ... ? How does this move forward in time, is empathy something you can kind of learn, how do autistic adults cope with it By pretending how do they actually "feel". I feel the same as anyone else - I feel happy, sad, joyful, scared, lonely, angry. I want to find my place and be accepted like every other person. But then others come along who don't accept others as equals. Then I feel confused, scared, lonely, inferior and unworthy. I feel that way because I'm made to feel that way by a society orchestrated around NTs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loobylou2 Report post Posted July 3, 2008 My Daughters the same. Her Grandfather died suddenly, when she was 10. When we told her she said "thats a shame he was a nice man" and that was it! It seems to be getting more pronounced with her now even though she is 14. If she hurts someone, she doesn't see the need to apologise because she hadn't done it on purpose. We keep telling her when she should apologise and why but she just becomes defensive, thinking we are getting at her and think she hurt them deliberately If someone hurts her though, she goes off it with them We try to use her feelings as a way of explaining other peoples feelings to her, but she just doesn't understand at all. Hope your littl'un continues to get better soon. <'> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bid Report post Posted July 3, 2008 Thinking some more about this topic, I think that as parents you can help and encourage your children to respect other people and be polite (as in saying 'That's sad' about someone's cat dying)... ...but you can't make them deliver NT emotional responses because they're not NT and they just won't be able to do it. A huge ammount of my social interaction is 'learnt' (or pretence as Mumble would say)...I say or do things because I've learnt that it is appropriate to do so, but very often I don't feel anything and sometimes I'm not even sure why I should do or say something other than having learnt it's appropriate. Stephanie, I would say concentrate on the fact that your lad openly shows he loves his immediate family...that is a wonderful thing! <'> Very many years ago our lovely Special Needs Health Visitor said to me that my son gave as much of himself as he could...and what more can we ask of anyone? Bid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bard Report post Posted July 3, 2008 That's the point I wanted to make to another poster. B lacks empathy for others. He has good manners, so he does say the appropriate phrase, but he doesn't 'feel' anything, no link. He sometimes runs a situation past me, to ask what he ought to say or to do. Not because he's worried, he just wants to get the correct response so that other people don't get irritated with him. If I hurt myself, B's response is practical..bandage, get someone, yelling 'don't get blood on my pizza' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tally Report post Posted July 3, 2008 I think it is possible to learn to an extent, but it is generally learned differently to how an NT would learn it. For example, I know because I have been told, that when a relative dies, people feel sad, and that it is helpful to say, "I'm sorry," to someone who has experienced this. I've also learned to think about how I would feel if this happened to me. This is something I have to do consciously. For example, if someone's cat died I would think about my own cats and try to remember how I felt when my cat died. Then it gets hard if someone's dog died, because I strongly dislike dogs. Or their tortoise, because I don't think they really have personalities or behave affectionately toward their owners. I have learned over the years that people feel about their pets how I feel about my cats. Even though I can't actually understand their feelings, I do now know that they are real, and that it is helpful to say, "I am sorry." I also find it hard to feel strongly about things that do not directly affect me. When I was 16 my grandmother died. I felt sad because I loved her a lot and because I knew my dad would feel very sad. But she lived abroad and I did not see her very often. I found it hard to appreciate that she was actually gone because nothing changed in my life, and the first time it directly affected me was when her name was not on my birthday card. Maybe your son is having difficulty appreciating how ill your youngest is because he cannot actually see him. I don't know any particular books, but social stories might help him to think "how would I feel?" and find some appropriate responses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarolineJ Report post Posted July 3, 2008 (edited) Bim has no inkling of empathy. He's a lovely boy, but just doesn't have all of his emotions in the right place. We'll take him as he is though I'm sorry your little one has been ill. Pneumonia is awful and it used to take Ruby weeks to months to get over it fully. It's not nice at all. Edited July 3, 2008 by CarolineJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flora Report post Posted July 3, 2008 . If I hurt myself, B's response is practical..bandage, get someone, yelling 'don't get blood on my pizza' I was once fastening Ben's car seat and as I bent forward the corner of my forehead met the corner of the car door... I fell to the ground and saw stars and ended up with a 2 inch gash and blood pouring down my face (still got the scar which needed stitches).... Bill's reaction was.... 'I'm glad that didn't happen to me' Flo' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
madme Report post Posted July 3, 2008 (edited) I've been reading this and thinking how would my two who are both aspergers react. My son would react concerned if he cared about the person ie he already had a relationship of sorts and so I think could on some level if he liked them "play the game" If he didn't I'm pretty sure that it would be no empathy at all. My daughter who is 7 would take mumble's approach. Edited July 3, 2008 by madme Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LizK Report post Posted July 5, 2008 I don't know whether you can make someone develop empathy as such, it is a dffixed part of his autism and thus part him due to difficulties with 'theory of mind'. Some autistic children struggle with it more than others. Studies trying to teach theory of mind have shown it is very difficult to alter. I think you can teach him to 'pretend' as Mumble said, to have manners, to respect others feelings and for him to intellectually realise that others may have different feelings or responses to situations han he might have. Modelling appropriate behaviour to him, using social stories or acting out situations with puppets or small toy characters, dinosaurs etc may help him learn. Also repsecting that this is a difference in him too. I don't think you can 'fix' the underlying issue though You son sounds like he is doing very well though :) I hope your youngest is on the road to recovery Lx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted July 5, 2008 Personally, i think 'empathy' is a bit of a myth... people talk about it as though it's some sort of telepathy, and it isn't at all... It's just about putting your own experiences into some sort of 'context' and projecting that onto others when you see them (or they tell you they are) in a similar context. i don't think any NT person can truly 'empathise' with another persons loss (say losing a parent or having your heart broken) until they've been through it themselves - they're just far better at 'projecting' other experiences they've had onto that and making educated guesses... The difference with an autistic person is that they are less able to manage the 'generalisation' and 'projection' parts when the event is a concept to them rather than a personal experience. All of the emotions when it's the real deal are just as complex, profound and difficult as they are for anyone else (?) An additional consideration is that autistic people may perceive the world differently, so may not, for example feel the loss of an aging parent with the same degree of finality that a non-autistic person would, because they do not necessarily associate all of the emotions they feel about that person (shared love & joy, happy memories, etc) with their physical presence. It may be that they 'carry' those things with them on a more internal level in some way? Dunno - haven't a clue! Practical empathy - different kettle of fish! As you may/may not know - Ben and I are going to see a band tomorrow and I have been ill all week. Part of my 'manflu' has been really bad headaches, which made me concerned about the concert. I had bought ben some earplugs to put in if he found it too loud... when I was moaning about my headfache he said 'If your head hurts at primal scream, you can have my earplugs and i'll put my fingers in my ears'... Now that's practical empathy, and if it doesn't show absolute concern and consideration for other people above your own needs I dunno what does... Final quickie: I feel the same as anyone else - I feel happy, sad, joyful, scared, lonely, angry. I want to find my place and be accepted like every other person. But then others come along who don't accept others as equals. Then I feel confused, scared, lonely, inferior and unworthy. I feel that way because I'm made to feel that way by a society orchestrated around NTs. I'm not disputing how you feel, mumble, but i think it's important to make the distinction that you feel that way because you find yourself in an environment that is unaccepting of you. That's not because it's 'orchestrated around NT's', and those feelings are not exclusive to autistic people or necessarily anything to do with the autistic condition at all. There are millions and millions of neurotypical people in the world who feel as confused, scared, lonely, inferior and unworthy as you do. Sadly, it's part of the human condition Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mumble Report post Posted July 5, 2008 There are millions and millions of neurotypical people in the world who feel as confused, scared, lonely, inferior and unworthy as you do. Agreed and I don't want to get into a debate that's off topic. I wasn't actually referring to my current 'situation/environment' but trying to word how I felt in a way that wouldn't cause offence to the original poster - clearly went the wrong way with that As it happens, the specific issues I'm facing now are because there's an NT way that society is believed to function best, and because I don't fit that, I'm made to feel as I do - but as I said, that's I do however have a question. My sister (and she's supposed to be NT and know all this ######) asked me what the difference is between feeling sympathy for someone and feeling empathy for (or is it having empathy for?) someone. The more I think about it, the more confused I get Answers on a postcard please (but type them here to so we can all read them ) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tally Report post Posted July 5, 2008 Actually, my mum said something the other day that made me think about this. I was telling her how I get scared when I go out cycling because often dogs jump up at me. The owners say, "she won't bite, she just wants you to stroke her." It happened so many times that I was eventually able to give my pre-prepared reply of, "I am not rewarding it for jumping up at a stranger." (This produced the desired response, whereas cowering and saying, "get it off, get it off," just made people shout at me and call me childish.) Anyway, my mum said that she finds the same thing happens to her when she goes running, and she thinks that dog owners don't seem to understand that some people do not feel the same way about dogs as they do. Also, many NTs have difficulty relating to what autistic people may be thinking and feeling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pearl Report post Posted July 5, 2008 the difference is between feeling sympathy for someone and feeling empathy for Here you go Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enid Report post Posted July 5, 2008 Fantasic site pearl, have just "lost" an hour looking up things I never knew I needed to know!!! Enid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pearl Report post Posted July 5, 2008 Fantasic site pearl, have just "lost" an hour looking up things I never knew I needed to know!!! Enid *nods* you should see the dust on my mantelpiece Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mumble Report post Posted July 6, 2008 Here you go What if you feel sorry for someone because you think you feel just like them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gothschild Report post Posted July 6, 2008 Hi, Feeling sorry for someone because you feel the same is showing empathy and in the best way. You are experiencing the same feelings as they are, you are showing genuine empathy. I dont know if J has had genuine empathy, but he is, trying to do what is expected, he recently told me about someone at school who could not do PE because he'd had an operation, he said that he didn't really care about him being ill, but pretended to anyway. With regards to family, when my dad died in January he was not in the least affected personally,but he could see that I was upset and he hugged me and said he was sorry for me, so I think he is making an effort to show empathy, but I don't know if it comes naturally to him. gothschild x Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canopus Report post Posted July 6, 2008 There's also the related issue of being "nice" rather than critical. Many people with AS are naturally critical (which can often be useful in practice) but have difficulty in being "nice". One example of this is a situation where natural instinct tells you to deliver a brickbat, but a "nice" person will override their natural instinct and instead deliver a bouquet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cmuir Report post Posted July 6, 2008 Hi I think one really positive thing is that your son is able to respond verbally appropriately. I personally an unsure (in fact, I'd be inclined to say no I think) that a child can learn empathy. My son and I had to attend a special unit for three months in Edinburgh where CAMHS follow the Incredible Years Programme. Part of the programme focused on feelings, etc and because my son learn to generally verbally respond appropriately that it was a big success. However, I don't share their thoughts, after all anyone can use 'empty words' ? I'm just not convinced that R really gets it. Caroline. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pearl Report post Posted July 6, 2008 What if you feel sorry for someone because you think you feel just like them? Thats an entirely different emotion called sympempathy, or empsympathy. I think I'll transfer this to the Drivel thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emmet Murphy Report post Posted July 6, 2008 (edited) However, I don't share their thoughts, after all anyone can use 'empty words' ? I think that's the crux of it - a lot of the time children are introduced to 'Feelings' they are effectively being taught vocabulary they do not understand; they then go away and start using this vocabulary incorrectly and consequently confusion reigns! Personally, I believe that Feelings should only be taught in real situations - ie when a child is happy, upset, scared etc. Looking at a person's face in a book or on a computer screen tells you nothing about how they are feeling. It needs to be in real situations: I remember several years ago, I was working in class of Year 5 / Year 6 ASDs pupils; one boy was going to go to another boy's house for dinner that night for the first time. All afternoon, he was complaining he was hungry. I was confused by that because he'd ate his lunch as he normally did. It was my Teaching Assistant who figured out what was happening: she told him "You're not hungry, you are worried". Edited July 6, 2008 by Emmet Murphy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites