I cant believe the headteacher

[peaches]

At 3.20 when the school door opens and the headteacher appears and looks around the yard at the parents do you shrink away? Well I do, and thats what happened today.

 

The kids started coming out and I thought oh no, dont look at me .... then he made a beeline for me and said "when youve collected R can I have a word please?"

 

So I immediately thought, oh no whats he done now? Last time I got the "summons" R had injured another child (and the time before that etc).

 

This is what he said. I was so gobsmacked I couldnt even answer.

 

I want to ask for your co-operation over the next few weeks. I dont want you to give in every time R wants something. We have been seeing a lot of bad behaviour from him this week, and I know that its Christmas with parties and all that but it doesnt excuse him. If he hasnt got his own way he has thrown what I would call a mega strop. Does he do this at home? (yes I reply). He has also been rude to other staff and has started pushing other pupils again. At which point I stopped taking a great deal of notice because I thought, you just dont get Asperger's do you? but he went on about him having a good brain in his head and being intelligent, and school have supported him through the budget by having him supported at lunchtimes and Ms S (SENCO) and Ms D (ED Psych) are doing what they can for you, he also mentioned our family circumstances and said I know its difficult for you but can I have your co-operation in this? Dont give into him no matter how much fuss he makes and take something of his away as a sanction etc etc I just nodded dumbly to get away and scarpered almost in tears.

 

Now he knows R's history, he knows we are going through statutory assessment process as he was the one who called in the educational psychologist and he knows we are seeing CAMHS. I am torn between thinking he has been at the sherry or has he got some form of dementia.

 

The more I think about it the more gobsmacked I am. I honestly dont know what to do.

 

What do you think??

[Cat]

 

I think that Head Teachers have a duty to know something about the pupils in their care. This guy obviously knows nothing about AS if he did he would realise that it is all of the changes in 'his' school which have brought about his behaviour not you. And pardon me while I throw a strop How DARE he attempt to make you feel guilty by telling you about the money he is using to support your grandson. This guy does know about the statutory assessment so he is not totally in the dark.

 

I would not be carrying over sanction to the home because this Head does not know how many AS beans make 5. I might buy him a book for Christmas about AS however and ask him to read it

 

Cat

 

 

 

[peaches]

I felt like putting him one of the NAS leaflets in an envelope inside a Christmas card, but decided I didnt want to waste a christmas card on him.

[Jericho]

I hope he knows more about being a Head than he does about AS.

 

It sounds as though he hasn't got a clue (to put it politely!).

 

 

[baddad]

Oh well... going to put myself in the firing line again, because i do think an alternative view is needed in these kinds of situations...

Yes, I do agree that your son is probably finding it more difficult during the lead up to Christmas and that that probably explains some of what's happening, but i really don't see what the problem is with the head trying to liase with you to ensure a consistent response and coordinated approach to sanctions for challenging behaviour. You've said the last two times that he approached you were over situations where your son injured other children and that aggression towards other children was starting to build up again, along with other challenging behaviours (mega strops when he hasn't got his own way and rudeness to staff etc). I can't see why trying to discuss that with you is wrong? If he had said nothing and the situation had escalated and your son had been excluded would that have been the right way to deal with it? What would you want him to do/how would you want him to handle it?

I don't know why the head having an expectation that mutual dialogue between home and school and an agreed plan to deal with instances of aggression implies that he 'doesn't have a clue' about autism? (I'm not saying he does, by the way, I just don't see how others have arrived at that conclusion based purely on the information you've given).

If I've missed something in your post I apologise, but other than the way he approached you (and I obviously don't know the full circumstances of that) I don't see why the request for mutual cooperation and a coordinated response is a bad thing - to me it seems very sensible and reasonable. It also sounds as if the head is doing what he can to help - Cat seems to think that him mentioning the support they have put in place for your son was somehow insulting, but perhaps he was offering reassurances that the school were trying to help (?), which would seem to be confirmed by the fact that he highlighted your son to the ed psych personally which has presumably been a factor in the statutory assessment process and accessing CAMHS...

Anyhoo... hope the rest of the week goes okay and the christmas break gives an opportunity for 'normal service to be resumed'.

 

[Cat]

Maybe I have just been involved with too many schools that tend to use the money they are already spending to support a SEN Child as a weapon/guilt trip on the parent that it has left me cynical. It is often these schools who will not put a child forward for a statement but are quite happy to tell the parents at every opportunity possible how their school action plus child is draining their budget. Well this is certainly the case in our Region I can not of course speak for the whole of the UK. AIM only supports parents in person in the North East. However I am digressing from the issues being raised here. I don't think that Peaches is objecting to being spoken to by the Head as such. I think that she is just quite shocked that he appears to have very little understanding of AS and how it is probably impacting on her grandson at the moment. I think that the issues the Head raised were important but it would have been better if he has perhaps given Gran sometime to prepare herself for this meeting with him. It really should have been an invitation to speak to Gran say tomorrow so that she had time to think about what she wanted to say. I speak from first hand experience when I say that on collecting my autistic son from school the only thing on my mind was getting him home because he often used to explode out of the classroom having held it together all day. I was never able to give anything else my full attention. I think that the Head caught Gran on the hop and if the Head did have a clue about autism he would have known that our kids seldom like to hang around at the end of the day while the grown-ups have deep and meangingfuls. If parents want to discuss something important with a school they have to make an appointment. The Head was saying that this issue is important and if it is then it deserved more than five minutes at the end of the day.

 

Sometimes we have other things going on in our lives and one incident like this can just be one incident too many to cope with. I have spent years supporting parents now and I would like to be able to say that there is a good understanding of autism now in our schools but I can't and believe it or not the Heads are usually the amongst those who know the least

 

Cat

Edited December 19, 2008 by Cat

[Anna Van Der Post]

At 3.20 when the school door opens and the headteacher appears and looks around the yard at the parents do you shrink away? Well I do, and thats what happened today.

 

The kids started coming out and I thought oh no, dont look at me .... then he made a beeline for me and said "when youve collected R can I have a word please?"

 

So I immediately thought, oh no whats he done now? Last time I got the "summons" R had injured another child (and the time before that etc).

 

This is what he said. I was so gobsmacked I couldnt even answer.

 

I want to ask for your co-operation over the next few weeks. I dont want you to give in every time R wants something. We have been seeing a lot of bad behaviour from him this week, and I know that its Christmas with parties and all that but it doesnt excuse him. If he hasnt got his own way he has thrown what I would call a mega strop. Does he do this at home? (yes I reply). He has also been rude to other staff and has started pushing other pupils again. At which point I stopped taking a great deal of notice because I thought, you just dont get Asperger's do you? but he went on about him having a good brain in his head and being intelligent, and school have supported him through the budget by having him supported at lunchtimes and Ms S (SENCO) and Ms D (ED Psych) are doing what they can for you, he also mentioned our family circumstances and said I know its difficult for you but can I have your co-operation in this? Dont give into him no matter how much fuss he makes and take something of his away as a sanction etc etc I just nodded dumbly to get away and scarpered almost in tears.

 

Now he knows R's history, he knows we are going through statutory assessment process as he was the one who called in the educational psychologist and he knows we are seeing CAMHS. I am torn between thinking he has been at the sherry or has he got some form of dementia.

 

The more I think about it the more gobsmacked I am. I honestly dont know what to do.

 

What do you think??

 

Peaches,

 

Give me this Head teachers name and details and I will send him a copy of my book when it is out. Just for training purposes of course!!!!! Believe me after reading this he will be grovelling at your feet. I shall not make a penny out of this booker ( (good job that was never my objective) as I have got so many people lined up for a complimentary 'TRAINING' copy. I am seething for you!

 

Anna

 

[chris54]

I think I must have found a really good school.

When talking to the staff they seem to understand what I on about and even anticipate what I'm going to say. Even the office staff know my son and what his problems are and understand.

 

Now unusually for me but I'm going to sit on the fence and say that I agree with some of what both cat and baddad say.

 

I have had the SENCO say "I'M going to get XYZ for son --- there goes my budget --". I took that to be a positive statement.

 

And I have had his teacher speak to me at the end of the day about negative behaviour, but in a positive way asking my if I had any views. The last time I made a few comment which were probably incoherent. Later when I had had time to think about it I sent an email to his teacher outlining possible courses of problem and how I would tackle it. She replied, thanking me and said the other staff would be made aware of problem and how to avoid/ deal with it. Once again looking back I find this a positive thing but fully understand that it is not the best time of day to have these conversations and I think the staff realize this.

 

The head teacher has a open door approach to parent, if she is available you can see her anytime you like. She is often in her office until 5 or 6 in the evening.

 

I would say that problems at school reflect what is going on in school as much if not more that what is happening at home.

We all know that our kids can be like chalk and cheese when it comes to their behave in different settings.

 

I think that in the case as outlined by peaches it is that the HT was presuming to tell her how to deal with thing at home and not consulting on how things are done at home that is the problem.

[oxgirl]

I can understand why you were upset, Peaches, because from what you've said maybe you felt that the Head was accusing you of giving in to your grandson and were, therefore, responsible for making his behaviour worse. I would have felt upset too by this implication. On principle, though, I don't see a problem with the Head's suggestion, maybe just the way it was delivered. Giving in to any child, AS or not, when they're throwing a paddy is a recipe for disaster imo, so his suggestion that they stand firm at school and that you do also at home is sensible. When it comes to the budget side of things, I don't think this is an issue that should concern you so I don't think he needed to have mentioned that at all.

 

~ Mel ~

[Mumble]

What do you think??

That Asperger's isn't an excuse for poor behaviour. All children respond to appropriate sanctions that are used consistently, particularly if done across environments.

 

[Cat]

 

That Asperger's isn't an excuse for poor behaviour. All children respond to appropriate sanctions that are used consistently, particularly if done across environments.

 

I do not think that we can ever say that 'All' children will respond to appropriate sanctions because they are 'All' different. I do know some children for whom sanction have never worked despite everyone's best efforts to make them do so.

 

Cat

[baddad]

I do not think that we can ever say that 'All' children will respond to appropriate sanctions because they are 'All' different. I do know some children for whom sanction have never worked despite everyone's best efforts to make them do so.

 

Cat

 

Hi all/Cat -

At the risk of wandering off topic i do find the above interesting. I think there is a tiny proportion of children who do not respond to appropriate sanctions and/or reward systems but isn't that usually a case of there being other factors? In some cases it's possible that the sanctions (or rewards) are actually not recognised as such because the 'actor' doesn't place the same values on the reward/sanction as the person delivering them, but thats more a case of misunderstanding or 'crossed purposes' than an indication that the principle is flawed. Even with something like ODD the 'key' to behavioural management is sanction/reward - it's just a different way of looking at what constitutes a sanction or reward. There might be other factors (Psychological or social) why children remain oppositional, but in those instances too the fundamental principles to modify the oppositional behaviour remain the same but are addressed within a framework that also addresses the other factors.

In cases of profound learning disability or extremely compromised social functioning the ability to recognise the concepts surrounding reward/sanction might be inherently flawed, but the key in those cases would be to work on the conceptual understanding to facilitate a structured reward/sanction regime. In those cases, though, there wouldn't be any 'oppositional' behaviour because the actor doesn't understand the concept of 'opposition' either - the responses are purely instinctive...

I suppose the thing about any sanction is that it has to have meaning for the child - if it's not something the child's actually bothered about it won't be effective as a sanction, It's got to be something he/she cares more about than the benefits (real or perceived) of continuing the behaviour.

If you remove every other consideration sanction and reward come down to the two basic principles all forms of life respond to: an outcome for the 'actor' that is perceived as a positive or a negative. If it's the former, the 'actor' will enact the behaviour, if it's the latter he won't.

 

 

PS: Sorry, peaches if this has gone too far from your intentions for this thread. i hope not, as it's interesting stuff

[lynne]

 

 

One of the most difficult things is how to deal with our ASD/Aspergers children and behaviour. Is the behaviour because of their diagnosis or is it bad behaviour.

 

Also our children do not respond like other children to rewards etc.

 

And professional give out no advice on behaviour and how to handle our children. This should be standard information following the diagnosis.

 

 

I can remember saying to the CALMS team that I found this the most difficult part to deal with. And I was advised to ask my child what he would like as a punishment. His choice of punishment was alot harsher than I would of chosen.

 

I have always said to my son that things do happen because of his ASD however bad behaviour is bad behaviour and he will be punished.

 

However, if I never asked that important question when he was 4 years old than I know his behaviour would of been alot worse and life would of been harder.

 

 

One of the most difficult jobs in the world it being a parent. Being a parent to a child with special needs is more complexed.

 

 

 

[Clare63]

I have found that "some" behaviours exhibited are the result of the environment, sensory, lack of real understanding and/or expectations of the child. Whilst I agree that challenging, bad or agressive behaviour is not excusable by having aspergers all avenues need to be explored and I too would have been offended by the Head's response, I often think that "pro's" are quick to blame behaviour on the parenting skills of the parents/carers. There are better ways of approaching us to discuss our children and the school yard isn't one of them.

 

Clare x x x

[chris54]

I do not think that we can ever say that 'All' children will respond to appropriate sanctions because they are 'All' different. I do know some children for whom sanction have never worked despite everyone's best efforts to make them do so.

 

Cat

 

Well I was going to respond to this but baddad has put it a lot better than I could.

 

 

 

[Cat]

 

I have lost count at the number of autism specific courses I have attended where I have been told by professionals much more qualified than I that you can not use the same reward/sanctions approach for children with ASD because it simply does not work. I was not talking about any other disability just ASD.

 

If I modify a behaviour then I want my sons to understand why they need to modify that behaviour anything less than that smacks of dog training. You can train a dog to jump through a hoop of fire but it is never going to understand why it is doing so apart from the tip bit that it receives at the end of it's performance. My sons are not 'actors' carrying out a role or pretending to be someone else they are real people engaged in life. I do not want them carrying out a role they do not understand. I work towards shared meanings and understandings because anything else does not remove the unwanted behaviour it simply masks it.

 

Cat

[peaches]

I dont object to being included in the way the school deals with tantrums, in fact I expect to be on board. I suppose you have to have been in on some of the previous conversations Ive had with the head to know he thinks Im too soft on the boy. Thing is, Im not. If there were a good cop bad cop set up in our household when it comes to discipline I am definitely bad cop and husband good cop. The tone of the conversation yesterday made no acknowledgement of R's difficulties but simply put the blame on bad parenting.

 

The sequel to the story began today. Between 10 and 11 am husband took a phone call asking us to come and fetch R home as he was having a huge tantrum. I sent husband up as I didnt want to start an argument. This time head said he was having a tantrum and it was in the middle of the talent show and he didnt have time to deal with it. Husband brought R home. The tantrum was because he had been given the wrong kind of milk.

 

This is how I see it. This time of year is too much for our little lad as routines are not adhered to and I think the talent contest was quite beyond him. The clinical psychologist has said it is extremely likely he has Asperger syndrome, but we are waiting for the conclusion of the formal assessments to have the diagnosis in writing. He obviously craves routine, sameness etc. He was given non dental milk instead of dental milk during the morning and he got all worked up about it. This is exactly the sort of thing he has a tantrum about. There isnt an element of "giving into him" in this is there? Somebody gave him the wrong thing, he reacted. I suppose I could have said the to head "I hope you didnt give in to him and give him the correct milk"!

 

 

[peaches]

Peaches,

 

Give me this Head teachers name and details and I will send him a copy of my book when it is out. Just for training purposes of course!!!!! Believe me after reading this he will be grovelling at your feet. I shall not make a penny out of this booker ( (good job that was never my objective) as I have got so many people lined up for a complimentary 'TRAINING' copy. I am seething for you!

 

Anna

 

 

Ive PM'd you. Thank you.

 

Thank you all for your support too!

[heleno]

As a senior Ta in a primary with an excellent sen reputation and the mother of a very challenging Aspergers son I can say quite catagorically that we would never speak to a parent of an sen child about that child in the playground. If you havn't already, I would advise you to speak to your local parent partnership asap as you need support in dealing with schools who are clearly unsure how to adjust the educational provision to assist your child.

[Cat]

 

Basically your grandson is too much trouble for them at the moment and is spoiling their run up to Christmas Although it could be argued that the run up to Christmas is doing a great deal more than spoiling his fun. No there was no element of "giving into him" in what you have posted tonight but there will be those who maintain that your grandson must be treated just the same as all of the other kids if they kick off or have a tantrum. The thing is your grandson is not the same as every other child in the school. The Head sounds a really 'nice' man. I agree with heleno the playground was not the place to initiate meaningful dialogue between you and the school.

 

Cat

 

[baddad]

Thing is, Im not. If there were a good cop bad cop set up in our household when it comes to discipline I am definitely bad cop and husband good cop.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but isn't that a little bit complex for a child with a communication disorder? The head of the school has highlighted the need for consistency in the way the behaviour is responded to in the school and the home environment, A 'good cop/bad cop' scenario implies anything but that.

Cat, like you I have attended many talks etc where professionals have said that you cannot use the same reward/sanction approach with autistic children, but I think we have interpreted the meaning of that differently. I think autistic children can prove uniquely indifferent to the usual rewards and sanctions because they sometimes have a completely different value base and because they sometimes lack the conceptual understanding to make the necessary associations, but that doesn't mean that reward/sanction doesn't work it means that you need to be more specific about the details. I actually said that in my last post... I have never attended a professional talk of any description where the professional concerned has effectively disassociated autistic children from the evolutionary chain and the fundamental patterns of behaviour that are evident in every branch of life from single cell organisms through to humans, but if i ever do I'll be the first to jump up and tell that professional that he/she is talking out of their hat! Assuming you include me in the number of those who would

maintain that your grandson must be treated just the same as all of the other kids if they kick off or have a tantrum.

, can I just qualify that?

No, I do not believe that autistic children should be treated 'JUST' the same, but neither do I believe that they should be viewed unilaterally as 'other' or that they should be exempt from the usual expectations that apply in school (or in the wider community and 'life' come to that).

 

You have also said that:

 

If I modify a behaviour then I want my sons to understand why they need to modify that behaviour anything less than that smacks of dog training.

 

Do you think that it's wrong to train a dog that bites not to bite? Children learn what is right and wrong/acceptable not acceptable by rote. The conceptual understanding underpinning that rote learning comes later. Neurotypical children are able to make 'leaps' of association that allow them to apply that conceptual understanding when they do get it into new situations, but that associative processing is something that is flawed to one degree or another in a majority of autistic people - it's actually part of the 'diagnostic 'triad'. To expect an autistic child to understand the concept before he/she can understand the rote process that proceeds that understanding is simply not realistic. You have to teach them what they can grasp (right/wrong) first and then help them towards the conceptual understanding. The process is no different for that of neurotypical children passing from the terrible two 'No' phase to the three or four year old questioning 'why?' phase - it's just extended because the associative learning is taken out of the equation. Putting it in very basic terms - if your child at one was in danger of walking under a car, would you wait another eighteen months for him to acquire the language skills to understand the meaning of 'stop'? Would you wait another fifteen years or so until he was able to understand the concept of 'death'? Personally, I'd go for dog training, because that's what would keep him alive...

 

[Cat]

 

But the dog training is not working in many schools because the dog trainers have had no training and do not know how to handle the dogs in their care. If you keep hitting a dog with a big stick it will bite you and with good reason. If you continually mistreat a child with autism by not attempting to understand how the disability impacts on that child then you are, in my opinion, guilty of neglect. Schools have a duty of care and many of them are not fulfilling that role. I will not make excuses for people who often dismiss the impact that the disability has on a child in their care. So again we will have to agree to disagree because you do not appear to be willing to allow any room for tantrums from the child with autism whatever the circumstances.

 

Cat

[Suze]

Peaches, I really don,t understand how the school, knowing "now "how your grandson has been this past week could have let him get so bad yesterday.If I were his teacher or classroom support I would have kept my eye on him yesterday, if he had been starting to have a ta ntrum during the talent show I would have taken him out as soon as he began to look agitated, took him somewhere quiet and talked to him ,read a book with him ,played with lego, anything to calm him.................why are,nt the school trying to help BEFORE he needs picking up because THEY can,t handle the situation.

 

 

.............just going off track.............sorry........

 

........my son had a dreadful time at primary he kicked off..........had tantrums......... he hated hated hated it there.

 

.........his primary tried and endeavoured to help him, and they did in some respects.However even with a statement he struggled and in all honesty they never really really understood him.

 

............I can say this now and know I am right that in some respects they let him down, I know this because he is now at high school and the staff there totally get him, totally understand autism , they know how he ticks , what sets him off , ....because they all have specific training/experience in autism.The team are autism specific there and so have the provision to give my son and his peers the environment they need and the understanding they need to go to school learn and socialise with the other kids and come home in the easiest way possible for them.

 

...........not every child on the autistic spectrum is going to be lucky enough to access decent provision and understanding and thats all any parent or grandparent wants at the end of the day.Since he has been at high school he has never kicked, punched or tried to strangle anyone like he was at primary, he still loses it but staff take him out of class if he starts to cry and he can sit on his own for a bit...............and he is punished if he misbehaves and rewarded if he is good.

[bid]

I've been reading this thread with interest...

 

My initial thought is that the Head was wrong to 'catch' Pearl in the playground. If he wanted that kind of discussion, he should have made an appointment so they could have talked in his office, without her grandson being present. How can a parent/grandparent be expected to talk about these issues with the child present and possibly agitated after the school day?

 

I think I said this in a previous education thread. Having a child unsupported in a mainstream school (or even with a Statement as Suze says) is a very different experience from having a child in a special school or a specialist ASD/Speech and Lang unit within a mainstream school, for example...having personally experienced both

 

Bid

Edited December 20, 2008 by bid

[JsMum]

We have been seeing a lot of bad behaviour from him this week

 

This is clear evidence that he has found the changes difficult and the lack of structure a real problem and though its is not an excuse for his BAD Behaviour it is an exceptable and understandable reason, I personally would like to see BAD be replaced with challenging, he is not been bad deliberately, he is using behaviour to express and gain back some control that he has lost.

 

It is incredibally difficult for a lot of children with special needs to adapt to christmas, and all it needs is one tiny thing for them to explode.

 

If he is pushing children it may be a communication/interaction need and it is clear his needs are not still been addressed even though they are supervising at dinner times, even though he is bright he well may still need regular reminders, visual instructions, structured timetables and support for social situations.

 

It is all well asking you peaches to be firmer and give more of your parenting side but your in an incredible difficult situation and I would of liked of seen the headteacher requesting more social care, in home support community workers, it will take a lot of your time and energy to ensure your Gson understands the boundaries and rules, especially at a time like christmas and new year, where many children will be given gifts, extra attention and exception from adults due to the christmas festives.

 

I am disheartened that the headteacher was not more supportive practacaly, writing reports to give to social services to request practical support ect...instead he has told you to put your foot down on him, if your Gson is anything like mine, you must have the correct management and I feel that you need more support until he is at a stage where he will not be as challenging, not bad behaviour!

 

Good luck for the christmas period.

 

JsMum

Edited December 20, 2008 by JsMum

[cmuir]

Hi

 

I personally would have found this insulting, since it appears that he's basically implying that you currently give in to him - he's made an assumption that because your child behaves badly, that this is a reflection on your parenting skills (or lack of). He also shows a complete lack of understanding of Aspergers since it's not always the case that standard methods of discipline work with an AS child. Personally, I've found I've had to be much firmer with my son than compared to a NT. I'd be inclined to ask to see him again and explain that he caught you 'off guard' and you'd like the opportunity to put him straight - that you don't pander to him, nor are you a soft touch and perhaps advise him on how you manage things at home (eg social stories, etc). In addition, things like the christmas season whereby there's an air of excitement can be difficult for any child, let alone one with Aspergers - I'd present him with some info which is readily available from the NAS website. Present it in such a way that you're glad he wants to work together to try and resolve some issues, but he has got things wrong (appearances can be deceptive). It does rather appear that the failing is on the school's part - if your son is behaving badly then that rather indicates he's not coping and therefore requires additional and specific support.

 

Initially I found my son's HT to be rather difficult and I've found that because I stood up for myself we've turned a corner and I think we have mutual respect for each other as well as an understanding. We're now very much working together to help R, despite things being incredibly difficult. It's not easy, but it can work. There have been several issues which have arisen as a result of budget cuts ie reduction in support which has been shared, despite being allocated full-time 1-2-1 support. It's so difficult working with HT's because ultimately their look out is for the whole school and not just one child, but I think despite 'political' type issues which can arise and be stumbling blocks, if you can maintain good communication links and work together that's a great start.

 

Best wishes

 

Caroline.

[baddad]

I will not make excuses for people who often dismiss the impact that the disability has on a child in their care. So again we will have to agree to disagree because you do not appear to be willing to allow any room for tantrums from the child with autism whatever the circumstances.

 

Cat

 

In the words of Moe Sizlak: "Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa???????"

 

Cat, I am perfectly happy to 'agree to differ' but I hope you'll agree that not responding to the very sweeping (and wrong!) generalisation above wouldn't be part of that process.

I have an 11 year old son with a diagnosis of autism/ADHD and dyspraxia - how on earth do you think either of us would have managed to achieve what we've achieved without being 'willing to allow any room for tantrums...whatever the circumstances' or while 'dismissing the impact of the disability'? Of course Ben has tantrums (not a word I would use from choice, BTW because it has associations with infantile behaviour that are not really appropriate, but i'm happy to use it if it's the word you prefer) and of course i make allowances for him. Come to that, I'm not above the occasional tantrum myself and he shows remarkable patience with me when I do go off on one - and he's learnt that from me too!

What I won't do is excuse, enable, endorse, or encourage negative and aggressive behaviours that arise from those tantrums, and i won't pass the buck or allow him to pass the buck of responsibility for them onto third parties or onto the catch-all umbrella 'boogeyman' that some people want to view autism as being. 'It's not him - it's his autism' and 'It's not him, it's the school' and 'It's not him - it's the other kids' are all forms of projection and they all reinforce the behaviours that parents should be helping their children to overcome. How can they overcome them when they are actively encouraged not to acknowledge responsibility for them? If a child has a 'tantrum' because he (i.e.) can't have chicken nuggets for tea, and you respond to that tantrum with a message that says the tantrum is 'excusable' (not his fault/down to autism/down to the school/down to other people/down to......) and then follow that up with a big portion of nuggets you are doing all of the 'e's' above and rewarding the behaviour...

 

I'm really sorry, but however much you would want to believe it my son is not a brow-beaten, abused, quivering wreck of insecurities and self-loathing from being supported and encouraged to take responsibility for his own actions. He's actually the exact opposite of that - an empowered, self-determined, confident, happy and secure little boy. (NB: Please don't try to take all of his hard work in getting there away from him by suggesting that he would have been that way anyway - He's worked his nuts off to get where he is and has faced exactly the same hurdles along the way as other children talked about on the boards - coupled with having the HUGE misfortune of being stuck with me for a dad ). He is certainly not a victim of 'mistreatment' or 'neglect', as you seemed to suggest with this:

If you continually mistreat a child with autism by not attempting to understand how the disability impacts on that child then you are, in my opinion, guilty of neglect.

because I do not 'not attempt to understand' but try to understand in a way that is empowering rather than dis-empowering. I think it is far more neglectful to close doors for a child by denying them self-responsibility than it is to open them by nurturing it, but like I said at the beginning, I'm happy to agree to differ if you see it differently.

 

 

[puffin]

I would certainly regard a headteacher trying to hold this conversation in the playground in front of the child and other parents as extemely unprofessional.

 

Also the headteacher's attempt to "blame the gradparent" when by all accounts the school's approach is not working either - seems more designed to destroy the home school relationship that build a mutual working relationship

[Cat]

Autism is not a bogey man it is a way of being and if you accept that autism is a way of being as I have, then you also have to accept that challenging behaviour is often the result of the needs of that child or adult not being met.

 

The original post was about a Gran being collared in the school yard by a Head Teacher who, in my opinion, did not chose the right platform to speak to Gran, about an issue which is important. Subsequent posts suggested to me that the Head is not as clued up as they should be and that there is a probability that everything that is going on in the school in the run up to Christmas might be contributing to the challenging behaviour being displayed by the child. The Code of Practice states that schools have an 'anticipatory duty' towards children with a disability in their care.

 

An anticipatory duty

The duty on schools to make reasonable adjustments is anticipatory. It is the potential for a substantial disadvantage that should trigger a consideration of what reasonable steps might need to be taken.

 

To take the reasonable step which was required in this situation it required the school to have an understanding of the child with a disability. The code goes on to say

 

Schools cannot, in general, wait until a disabled pupil has arrived before making reasonable adjustments. This may be too late and it may not be possible to take reasonable steps before the pupil is placed at a substantial disadvantage.

 

This is telling me that once the school is aware that there is a problem they must do what they can to prevent the child from being placed at a substantial disadvantage. This has not happened in the case we have been discussing here, because the school clearly (clearly to me that is) do not understand what might be an issue to a child with autism. Because they do not understand this it is now too late, and the child is being the one singled out and sent home, when in fact it is the school who has not complied with their anticipatory duty and they have also failed to make reasonable adjustments. You can not fit a round peg into a square hole unless you give it a might hammer blow. Surely this is not what we want for our children.

 

What I won't do is excuse, enable, endorse, or encourage negative and aggressive behaviours that arise from those tantrums, and i won't pass the buck or allow him to pass the buck of responsibility for them onto third parties or onto the catch-all umbrella 'boogeyman' that some people want to view autism as being.

 

I am not sure that anyone is excusing or endorsing negative behaviour least of all me. What I am saying and will always say is that you have to look at the reasoning behind the challenging or negative behaviour. If there are steps that should have been taken that have not then I believe that it is wrong to allow the child to carry the can and or be expected to conform. It is like asking a builder to build a wall with bricks only and no mortar. The wall is never going to stay standing up is it? So expecting a child to adjust its behaviour without those who have undertaken the duty of care to make the reasonable adjustments required for that child is wrong.

 

You see because I really do believe that autism is a way of being. I also believe that to enable that child to live as independently and as successfully as they can in our mainstream world it is our duty to make sure that the people who are charged with the duty of care for our children are not playing with half a deck, metaphorically speaking of course. Society owes it to any and every disabled person to give them the best possible start in life and that in my book means that you start by accommodating them and then help them to develop the understanding and skills they will require to fit in to mainstream life.

 

I have no idea how many mainstream school you have had the pleasure of dancing with I have now lost count as to how many time I have been around the dance floor myself. But while I have been engaged in the dance I have found that the biggest hurdle for our children to overcome is a school that has a little knowledge but not enough. My Dad always said that a little knowledge was a dangerous thing and I can se now why he used to say this.

 

In my own home I stamp hard on undesirable behaviour but that is because I know that we live in a house that understands that autism is a way of being and therefore we have made it our business to have a good understanding of our sons.

 

So we may not be able to agree to disagree we might simply disagree about this but that does not make either one of us wrong does it?

 

Cat

Edited December 21, 2008 by Cat

[baddad]

I would certainly regard a headteacher trying to hold this conversation in the playground in front of the child and other parents as extemely unprofessional.

 

Also the headteacher's attempt to "blame the gradparent" when by all accounts the school's approach is not working either - seems more designed to destroy the home school relationship that build a mutual working relationship

 

Hi puffin - The original post said that the headmaster approached peaches and asked if he could have a word after she had collected R... Having said that, I do wonder what the headmaster could have down that would have been appropriate. On this forum i have seen phonecalls to home dismissed as 'hounding', I have seen requests for meetings interpreted as 'putting the pressure on and leaving people to stew for days' etc etc... Basically whatever schools do is viewed as the wrong thing if that's how people want to interpret it...

Personally, there were several occassions when ben's head approached me at picking up time, several times when she phoned me at home and several times when we arranged meetings for further discussion. I regarded all of these moves as positive efforts to help my son overcome his difficulties in school.

Cat, far too late at night for me to read everything you've posted, but from the opening line i don't think there's any point really... I said that some people want to view autism as a catch all 'boogeyman' and rather than seeing that for what it was you turned it on its head and saw it as me referring to autism as a boogeyman... Whatever i put into this discussion you will 'see' whatever you want to see and disregard everything else - far be it from me to rattle the cage. let's just 'agree to differ'...

 

L&P

 

BD

 

 

PS: I've just read the opening paragraph of your post... look again at the original posts and you original response to it. it's not how you said... you jumped straight in with two HUGE sweeping assumptions: The head hasn't got a clue about AS and it is the changes in his school that have bought about the behaviour. You see what you want to see, you see...

Edited December 21, 2008 by Kathryn

[pookie170]

I often think that a lot of mainstream schools, with the very best of intentions, try for too long a period of time to help some kids remain in their schools. I know this was the case with my lad, and in retrospect, I wish wish wish the Head had said after 6 months tops,

'Y'know what? We really can't meet your son's needs here and we're not doing him any favours by labouring away like this for another year in the hope that we can.... May we start to look at other options?'

 

Obviously, this won't fit every AS/HFA child, but I wish they'd done it with mine.

I do think the Head should have asked you inside to discuss the day's events, while another member of staff watched your son. I wouldn't mind doing that, should it occur when I've started as an SLA. And on countless occasions, teachers and support staff haven't minded doing it for Cal and I either-could you speak to the Head about this, Peaches? He should be open to this proposition- I don't think it's right or fair to talk to you in the playground about such things.

 

It sounds to me like you DO expect your grandson to deal with the consequences of his actions, but the Head should be thinking along the lines of

'Its not fair to put a child who is having such difficulty coping into situations where he'll probably fail, and unacceptable behaviours will follow. What strategies could we try in order to avoid certain trigger situations?'

Once your grandson feels happier and less stressed at school, the issues could be reviewed and possible coping strategies implemented.......

 

I think you need to arrange a meeting with the Head and discuss this as frankly and calmly as possible- otherwise, this is going to continue ad nauseum. And if you can find literature that supports your views/suggestions, arm yourself with them, include them in your discussion.

Also, get on the blower to CAMHS and pester them for an appointment, get them on board and see if they can make suggestions- sadly, I find that many professionals (whichever discipline they belong to) only give any credence to the opinions of other professionals.

And Lordy, I hope the statementing process doesn't drag on much longer for you guys!

Take care, Pearl, I hope Christmas holidays have lots of love and joy in them for you and yours.

Have a Christmas Cuggle from me!! <'>

 

Esther x

[Kathryn]

Thanks Pookie, for bringing this thread back to the original topic and wrapping it up nicely.

 

The full and frank exchange of views has been interesting and I hope you've found the discussion useful, Peaches.

 

However, as the thread is in danger straying from the original topic and descending further into a personal argument I am now closing it.

 

Kathryn