School said they cannot support a statement

[connieruff]

My son is 7 and has Aspergers When he was in reception/class 1 it looked promising, he did well and the teachers were very good with him.

When he went to Class 2 everything nosedived, he became depressed, would cry in the classroom, was bullied and as a result he wont or cant work properly, his work has really suffered.

I was told in the last meeting we had with the school that he is getting a lot of 1 to 1 with a classroom assistant but that he is nearly a year behind.

They told me that when he gets to Class 3 in September there are no classroom assistants and he will really struggle.

I said then in that case we should get him statemented. The teachers said that this was not going to help as they don?t have the resources, and they said that there is already a child who is supposed to be getting so much help and they cannot provide it.

So what am I supposed to do? Sit back and watch the school fail him again?

What is the point of a statement if the school cannot fulfil their obligation?

Can anyone tell me if it is worth getting him statemented?

Is it also worth getting an educational psychologist to see him?

Any help gratefully received.

 

[JsMum]

Hi, Sorry your son is so depressed in school and that things have nosedived.

 

Is he already on any special educational needs provision, for example school action, or school action plus?

 

Has he got a Individual Educational Plan and are any targets for his learning and Special educational needs?

 

I would write a formal letter to your councils special educational needs department's manager and reliterate all your concerns here, that there is substantial deteriation and that with this evidence now it will only worsen when his support is wholely withdrawn in september and you have great concerns for his future education if he left unsupported.

 

If your son has been on a IEP and it shows little or no progress and he has been on SA+ For longer than a year I would certaily start to collect evidence and start the process of an assessment of Special Educational Needs with view of a statement.

 

When J was younger I was always told that other children are worse, your son doesnt need what bob needs or your son needs support but we havent got any money, this isnt your problem, it is the LEAs so if you strongly feel that your Son Needs an assessment then yes go throw the process, yes it can take a long time but if you leave it then it takes even longer with worse consequences.

 

National Autistic Society have a Educational Helpline, and contact a family have a wealth of information also, so do go on their website too, as do this forum from the education section.

 

I wish you the best of luck, my son was very depressed in year 4 due to his needs not been met, so do sympathise and wouldnt go throw all that again, ever.....

 

 

JsMumxxx

 

 

 

 

[westie]

J's mum has made some excellent points/ advice. I certainly would ask for a meeting and copy of his school records if you can

 

other thing to consider is that if this school not able to meet his needs, then maybe a change of schools, and looking at options both mainstream (with or without autistic resource unit if any in yr area) or special school may be more suitable....

 

And requesting an assessment for a statement would at least mean the LEA will look at what the school are doing currently and it may prompt them into taking action. (perhaps that is why they are trying to put you off???) And as part of assessment process they get EP to look at your child and get evidence from other professionals etc as to yr childs particular needs as well as asking for input for you.

 

re school saying he has help from someone most of time (even though it not possible in yr 3), well in my opinion 1:1 support in itself does not necessarily meet his needs (as they are finding). Does the supporter know enough about his condition and how it affects him, and willing to try different strategies and are school this assistant getting advice from others (educational psychologist/ autism outreach team) on how to help him/ make him feel more able to cope? What about the environment he is working in? If they are giving him the extra suport of a TA anyway at present, then would it help if he were able to work in a different area/ smaller group than he is in now? Maybe he needs more support at times where they are not currently giving it? Thinking about who is in the class with him and who might be a better person to sit near/ be friends with may help him to feel more comfortable. One or two carefully selected peers at a table with him may make him feel better than being with 5 or 6 who may be lively themselves and distracting (or they may be people he does not like for some reason so may be unwiling or unable to concentrate on his work for some reason)???

 

He is obviously struggling and its not fair for the school to make this excuse and then not do enough to help. I thought thats what statements were for, to give extra money above that they get for SEN kids without statement, so that they have resources to meet their needs...

 

Aw well as the suggestions that J's mum has made, these contacts may also be useful: if your council has a "parent partnership service", or if you have a local NAS branch they may help and support you in dealing with these things and may support you in attending meetings with the school etc. Or if you have a friend or relation who may have experience in these things they could also attend meetings to support you.

 

Getting EP in to see yr son sounds like it is needed, I am not sure if school have to pay for this and if they are being tight fisted maybe thats why they have not asked so far. Perhaps others can answer that and say whether this is correct...

 

Good luck X

 

[Kathryn]

What is the point of a statement if the school cannot fulfil their obligation?

Can anyone tell me if it is worth getting him statemented?

 

Yes! Not only worth it, but absolutely essential in your son's case if the school does not have the resources. The LA is legally responsible for funding the support in a statement, not the school, whatever they tell you. If 1-1 support was detailed in your son's statement, the school would have to be funded for this.

 

K x

 

[wasuup]

Yes! Not only worth it, but absolutely essential in your son's case if the school does not have the resources. The LA is legally responsible for funding the support in a statement, not the school, whatever they tell you. If 1-1 support was detailed in your son's statement, the school would have to be funded for this.

 

K x

 

It may be worth giving you sons paediatrician of ccp a call and tell them of the situation. My son's paediatrician is going to tell the school that he needs a Ed psych report as to establish what needs my son has in school and I believe this report will go towards a statutory assessment. You can apply yourself for a statutory assessment but ask for backup if you can get it. Check out the criteria for a SEN which should be on your LEA's website.

 

[Kazzen161]

They told me that when he gets to Class 3 in September there are no classroom assistants

 

So they are saying they have already decided there will be no TAs in class 3 regardless of the needs of the children? That is not on - every year the school should reassess the needs of each class and use the TAs accordingly. I don't know of many primary schools that don't have a TA in each class, at least for the morning sessions.

 

If he gets a Statement then the school has to provide the help (whether it is the LA or the school that pays for it - that is not your problem).

 

[connieruff]

Thank you all so much for the replies.

I now will start the statement ball rolling. One question: should I get an ed phychologist in first or not? Do I have to employ one?

Also he is sitting his Key Stage 1 SATS soon, and I know that this will be very stressful for him and demotivate him even more. I've had a look at the sample papers and no way is he going to be able to do this.

Are the schools supposed to make special provision for him as he has Aspergers?

Also can I take him out of school altogther while this is going on? Is there a legal obligation for him to participate in the SATS?

Are the SATS papars marked by his teacher?

 

Sorry for the amount of questions here.

Cheers,

C

 

 

 

[bid]

Is there a legal obligation for him to participate in the SATS?

 

No!

 

As a parent you have the right to withdraw your child from SATS.

 

Bid

 

[Kazzen161]

One question: should I get an ed phychologist in first or not? Do I have to employ one?

Also he is sitting his Key Stage 1 SATS soon, and I know that this will be very stressful for him and demotivate him even more. I've had a look at the sample papers and no way is he going to be able to do this.

Are the schools supposed to make special provision for him as he has Aspergers?

Also can I take him out of school altogther while this is going on? Is there a legal obligation for him to participate in the SATS?

Are the SATS papars marked by his teacher?

 

It is probably better to just apply for the Statutory Asessment - if the LA agree to assess, then they will send in the EP. You could pay for an EP assessment, but the LA will probably ignore the findings anyway (as if you pay them, EPs will say what you like - says the LA) and the school may not allow your EP to go into the school anyway.

 

SATs papers are written to asses the most able to the least able - the average child will be able to answer about half of the questions, the least able - maybe only two or three. The schools do teacher assessments as well (which tend to be more accurate) so if your child happens to be "ill" for a few days, it is not a disaster. However, if you are applying for the stat. assessment his performance (or lack of) could be good evidence of lack of progress. Most schools try not to make a big deal of KS1 SATs. He could get a TA to encourage him, and to read the maths and science questions to him. He may be offered breaks, extra time, etc. Some AS children like the SATs tests, because for once the whole class is quiet!

 

Whoever marks the papers, there are very strict rules on what answers are acceptable (I have marked some Yr3 and 5 ones as a TA). I wouldn't worry about him not doing well - it will be good evidence for you. Often the children will have a go at the questions and think they got them right, even if they didn't. Schools don't tell the children their score (at KS1), so they are none the wiser.

[connieruff]

That's interesting... so if the school gets wind of me going for a statement, they may bend the SATs results a bit so that it will look like he is OK after all so that they don't have to pay out for extra help. So it would be best to start the statement process after the SATS?

Is this how it works? Or am I being cynical?

.

[Daisydot]

If your son does sit the SATS, you might find the results useful in pushing for extra help for him. I dont know whether your son is predicted to get good results or not but my son with severe language deficit and ASD was supposed to get "average " SATS results (according to the Ed Psych and his statement). When he only achieved results below level 1s, it proved without question that he could not access the curriculum and it was a really major piece of evidence we needed to get him into a special school. I remember Year 2 was really stressful with him, and similar to you he was bullied and getting really stressed out. I feel for you.

 

You can also request a statutory assessment from the LA yourself, without the school, your Parent Parntership Officer should be able to advise how to do this. IPSEA (free) or a good solicitor (definitely not free) can also help and advise you on whether you have enough evidence to go forward for statementing or whether you need independent reports as well. If you get a statement, it should come with some extra funds for some 1-1 support.

 

Good luck with it all.

[Kazzen161]

That's interesting... so if the school gets wind of me going for a statement, they may bend the SATs results a bit so that it will look like he is OK after all so that they don't have to pay out for extra help. So it would be best to start the statement process after the SATS?

Is this how it works? Or am I being cynical?

.

 

They cannot fiddle the test results. They might be able to exaggerate the teacher's assessment, but if it differs vastly from the test results, they will have some explaining to do. I woudl think it is more likely that poor test results will back up your case.

 

Just to clarify, it is not the case that all Counties give more funding if a child has a Statement. Our County only gives extra funding for some Statements (hence why schools here often aren't pushing for a Statement - a lot of work, leading to a duty to provide help, but no extra money).

 

 

[Kathryn]

Just to clarify, it is not the case that all Counties give more funding if a child has a Statement. Our County only gives extra funding for some Statements (hence why schools here often aren't pushing for a Statement - a lot of work, leading to a duty to provide help, but no extra money).

 

They are breaking the law in that case.

 

K x

[Sally44]

You are being lied to.

A statement is a legal document and the school has to provide the support itemised in the Statement. If they don't have the provision the LEA has to fund anything over and above what they can provide. And 'education' is a genereal term. It doesn't mean just reading and writing. It means social skills, friendship groups, life skills, sensory integration therapy, etc.

Get in touch with the National Autistic Society and speak with their educational advisor. A statement has to be worded correctly and needs someone experienced to look over it. They should be able to do that for you.

Getting reports that itemise your sons needs and what supports would meet those needs is difficult through the LEA or NHS, but it can be done, or you can get private independent reports from professionals who do not work for the LEA or NHS and who have experience of being expert witnesses at Educational Tribunals.

Statements have teeth.

Find out if the NAS is doing a seminar about the Statementing process, or ask the Parent Partnership the same thing. Get clued up. Order a copy of the Code of Practice and SEN Toolkit for the Statementing process.

A Statement also gets you access to other schools that have experience of teaching children with ASDs. These can be a mixture of mainstream children and those with ASDs, or ASD only children.

In the past i've been threatened, bullied, lied to, deceived by my LEA. I wouldn't believe a word I was told. I would want everything double checked.

It sounds like the school don't want to do the extra work involved. I would seriously look into other schooling options that have experience of teaching children on the spectrum. If his present school are anti- that will mean you have to be continually on top of them to make sure they are doing what they are supposed to.

 

[Kazzen161]

They are breaking the law in that case.

 

K x

 

Why?

[Sally44]

My understanding is that different councils have different policies and procedures. Some do statements, some refuse them. I've never heard of any that do good ones. But whatever your local council says or does is irrelevant because the Statementing process is a legal document. There is law behind it regardless of local council's policies. There is a Code of Practice and SEN Toolkit which states how a Statement should be put together and what it should/should not contain and how provision should be funded. Educational Tribunals go on Case Law, not Council policy.

Some of the usual problems is the definition of 'education'. Many local councils will state that Social Skills, Occupational Therapy, Sensory Integration Therapy etc are not 'educational'. Case law takes a much wider view of what education is. Education is preparing a child to enter the world and be as independent as possible - therefore you need Social Skills in the outside world. 'Occupational Therapy is not an educational need' - or 'it is the responsibility of the NHS not the LEA to provide OT'. Any barrier to learning is a need and should be included in the Statement. The Code of Practice also clearly states that every need should be itemised and where a child requires a level of support over and above that normally supplied by the LEA, it is the responsibility of the LEA to meet those funding requirements and to make arrangements for that level of provision with outside agencies such as NHS. LEAs have to buy in outside agencies, regardless of their policy or budgetary limitations. That is why LEAs don't want Statements, or they want very vague and unspecific Statements. 'The Statement needs to be flexible'. No it clearly states in the CoP that Statements need to be specific and case law says they need to be specific so that a parent knows when the school/LEA are not fulfilling their obligations under the Statement. It says that 'any flexibility built into the Statement should be for the benefit of the child and not the benefit of the system'. So they cannot try to build in flexibility around staffing provision. They have to be specific about who does what and when. They can build in flexibilty around the pupil. For example they might prefer a termly figure of speech therapy eg. 6 hours of one to one speech and language therapy given by a qualified speech therapist with experience of ASDs. Because the SALT still has to meet those termly figures, and the flexibility works in the favour of the pupil. So if the pupil cannot engage during a session, or is ill, they don't loose that time of therapy as it will be carried forward.

My son is currently receiving Listening Therapy in school (overseen by the OT) because I proved that he needed it as he has auditory processing disorder, sensory integration disorder. Both of these are medical conditions which the NHS either has to provide therapy for or they have to pay the fees of a private clinic. My son is the only child in our city getting that therapy. That is because I am clued up on educational law and what the LEA and NHS has to do by law.

[cmuir]

Hi

 

In Scotland we have an alternative to statements, so I can't comment. However, your child should have an educational psychologist. I'd push and push for that. An EP is responsible for assessing a child's needs (irrespective of having a diagnosis), liaising with school staff and any outside agencies to get your child the support needed eg SALT/OT/etc.

 

Best wishes.

 

Caroline.

[Kathryn]

They are breaking the law in that case.

 

K x

 

 

Why?

 

Because the LA has the duty to arrange the special educational provision in the statement, which means picking up the tab if the school doesn't have the resources to provide what's in the statement, (and the LA are legally responsible anyway, whoever pays, as you've said above). If the LA are saying that the child's level of need is the determining factor for funding in your LA, this amounts to an illegal blanket policy. (Forgive me if I've misunderstood, and you aren't saying this!)

 

K x

[connieruff]

Thank you for the replies and information.

I have just dug out my sons IEP, dated Oct 2008 it goes like this:

 

Pupil target: I will carry out my tasks and then choose my reward.

 

Task is written on G's reward sheet - he chooses task to do as a reward.

English/Maths Targets

 

I can retell a story using the main characters

I can put capital letters at the beginning of a sentence and a full stop at the end.

I can add numbers when solving problems up to 10.

Action: One to one support from TAs and volunteer support and then it names 3 TAs and the teacher.

Own workstation if required

Reward sheet.

 

I asked my son where his workstation was and he did not know what I meant. I asked about his reward sheet and I got a blank look.

I obviously have trusted the school too much, I thought they would be professional etc but now it looks like I have got to the point that a lot of parents get to - they are lied to and fobbed off so much they get as cross as hell and get into litigation mode. Which is where I am. I was told at the beginning by the outreach lady to 'work with the school' but this has got my son nowhere.

Also where does Ofsted come into all of this?

 

Any thoughts about the IEP welcome!

Thank you all once again for this infomation, its so nice to be able to 'talk' this over with people who are or have been in the same position.

I'm definately going for a statement, just need to gather all of the ammo.

C

 

[Kazzen161]

I asked my son where his workstation was and he did not know what I meant. I asked about his reward sheet and I got a blank look.

 

If the IEP was set in Oct 08, it has either been reviewed or is due to be reviewed very soon. Ask about this.

 

Ask the school if they can explain/show you the workstation/reward sheet (act as though you believe they have done them to start with, in case they have and your son just does not know what they are called).

 

The IEP does not specify success criteria (eg: "uses full stops and capital letters correctly 50% of the time") or about how the TA is going to help him learn to do it.

[Kazzen161]

Because the LA has the duty to arrange the special educational provision in the statement, which means picking up the tab if the school doesn't have the resources to provide what's in the statement, (and the LA are legally responsible anyway, whoever pays, as you've said above). If the LA are saying that the child's level of need is the determining factor for funding in your LA, this amounts to an illegal blanket policy. (Forgive me if I've misunderstood, and you aren't saying this!)

 

K x

 

Our LA argues that it devolves the funds for frequently occurring SEN (eg: AS, ADHD, dyslexia) to the schools, so the school already has the money to meet the needs of such children. However, the way the funds are allocated does not take account of how many children with each SEN the school has (it used to) - it is now based on deprivation indices, free school meals, etc. If a school has a good reputation for SEN, then it may have lots of children with AS, but it gets no extra money, even if the children have a Statement. Low frequency SEN Statements (eg: visual or hearing impairment) come with extra funding. I believe the LA still classes aspergers as high frequency and autism as low frequency, so extra funding depends on what is stated on the Statement. I always tell parents that it is not up to them to worry about who will fund it - it is up to the LA and the school to argue about it.

[Sally44]

To: Kazzen161

I know that LEAs say that all funding is now put into schools. But that is not the point. It also has nothing to do with diagnosis. A child with aspergers may need a higher level of funding than a child with autism. It depends what the needs are. And those needs (in section 2 of the statement), have to have recommendations on how those needs will be met (in section 3). And the LEA has to fund this full stop. For example if a child is showing characteristics of dyslexia, and the school has tried to support this, and has bought in the Dyslexia Advisor to give advice to school, and the child still has not made a years worth of progress in an academic year, then the parents can ask for a Specialist Teacher (not a TA), to go into school on a weekly basis, and the LEA has to fund this extra ?�10,000? worth of support per annum.

If you get into a situation where your child is having weekly SALT, Dyslexia Teacher, Occupational Therapy etc it can actually add up to more than a private school that has all those professionals in house.

[Sally44]

To: Connieruff: IEPs should be SMART, ask your Parent Partnership to come to IEP meetings and advise on how these should be set out. You one you quote is not smart.

Eg. I will carry out my tasks and choose a reward.

The aim of the IEP is to show that a child is learning a skill.

So you definite what the tasks are, how often he will carry them out, who is going to show him to to do that, how often are they going to to through it with him before he does it independently. What reward system do they have, how does he choose it etc. And what ranks as success. I was told that a child on the spectrum should be aiming for 100% success before you consider he has attained that skill. 50% is never enough because it also means that half the time he failed to achieve the goal.

I can retell a story using the main characters. How often is thing going to happen? Which lesson will it be in? Will it always involve the same teacher or TA? How long will the story be? etc.

 

But I agree that you should just drop in school unannounced to 'see' his workstation and other supports they are supposed to be using. If you make an appointment it might all be in place as if by magic - sorry to be so cynical but it does happen!

[Kazzen161]

To: Kazzen161

I know that LEAs say that all funding is now put into schools. But that is not the point. It also has nothing to do with diagnosis. A child with aspergers may need a higher level of funding than a child with autism. It depends what the needs are. And those needs (in section 2 of the statement), have to have recommendations on how those needs will be met (in section 3). And the LEA has to fund this full stop. For example if a child is showing characteristics of dyslexia, and the school has tried to support this, and has bought in the Dyslexia Advisor to give advice to school, and the child still has not made a years worth of progress in an academic year, then the parents can ask for a Specialist Teacher (not a TA), to go into school on a weekly basis, and the LEA has to fund this extra ?�10,000? worth of support per annum.

If you get into a situation where your child is having weekly SALT, Dyslexia Teacher, Occupational Therapy etc it can actually add up to more than a private school that has all those professionals in house.

 

I agree it does not make sense. Ten years ago, AS would have been classed as a low frequency SEN - it is now a high frequency SEN, but that does not change the fact that they need a lot of help. In reality we know if a school has several children with 1:1 on their (high frequency) Statements, the school is going to struggle to afford it. That is not the parents problem though - with a Statement they can just insist that the provision is provided. After fighting the system for 12 years, I am happy to be leaving the education system behind (well, from a parent's point of view anyway - I am still a Governor and a TA).

 

Re: the 50% - that was a suggested first target - once that is achieved, it would be increased to 75%, then 100%. The target has to be achieveable within the term/6 months.

[lynne]

 

 

Some schools do not like going throught the statmenting process as it takes up alot of resources. Than once the child has a statement there are reviews, goal setting meetings with parents and ed psy. Employing staff to work with the child. Implementing the statement as it is a legal document.

 

 

Hence, alot of schools will put problems in the way saying they can not manage or they are difficult. The intention is the parent will shut up or the child will move to another school, than that school gets rid of the problem.

 

Schools and LEA based there statements on most people will give up along the way. This is one reason why so many statements are refused at the first stage.

 

Stay strong and get the support your child needs. It might be worth considering another school as the school do not appear to be honest or supporting your child in the way they need.

 

A happy child will learn. Leaving a child in an unsupportive environment means he/she will become more unhappy and may end up with mental problems due to all the stress.

 

 

[connieruff]

Hi,

I asked the teacher where was my sons workstation was, as on my sons IEP it stated - 'Own workstation if required' - she said 'Well it was here - and she indicated a good corner of the classroom where the other children were not able to stare at him and laugh at him. But then she said but we had to move it to here - and she indicated a place just behind a row of childrens chairs where my son would have been facing sideways on to the children and they would be able to look at him but not him them. I thought it would have added to his anxiety not helped it. I asked her 'how often does my son ask to sit there? And she said he is not allowed to ask - we sit him there when he is disruptive.

I'm in the process of writing my request for assessment - but the schools outreach lady has got wind of me doing this and said she may do her own assessment rather than get the Educational phychologist in, now I smell a rat here, I'm not sure why but I dont trust her, she so far has failed to help my son, and she does not bang the table enough at the school meetings. Why would she propose to do this?

I feel strongly that the school are going to play dirty here.

Should I see a soliciter to look over the request before I send it? Also a lot of what I am going to write in the request looks very bad on the teachers, ie I could say that they have told me that they will not support a statement etc, should this be kept in, or take it out?

[Sally44]

Firstly it sounds like the school have no idea about what a work station is for and how it should be used. It is not a place to go for punishment! And why shouldn't a child be able to request to use it - or request some other place if they need it. My son had access to a pup tent in infant school. In year 2 that disappeared and nothing replaced it. So when he got really angry and upset he was made to sit in the class with all the other children looking at him. But, as awful as all this stuff is, it is all evidence. Put it down in writing. Always send letters into school and send letters after verbal conversations ie. 'further to our conversation yesterday you showed me where my son's work station had moved to. I believe that the current placement of the workstation (where all the children can look at him) will increase his anxiety in class. Can you please relocate the work station. You also confirmed that my son cannot request to sit there and that he is sent to his workstation when he is disruptive. The work station is not a place to be sent when a child is being disruptive. It is supposed to be a place with less visual distractions where the child can have a visual timetable or other visual work schedules to help the child complete their work independently. Can you please speak with the Autism Advisory Teacher about this, so that she can clarify how school should be using this support'.

Speak with your local parent partnership about who the LEA would request to go in and observe your son and make reports towards a Statement? The LEA will have to take on board anything a private EP report says. Eventhough they are private, they have a code of practice and they have to give a truthful account of the child's abilities and needs. It is just as easy (and more truthful) that LEA and NHS staff recommend support within the levels they have and may be totally unrelated to the need of the child. If you do get an independent EP you need to make sure they are not employed by the LEA or NHS (as it will affect their report), and that they have experience of attending Educational Tribunals as expert witnesses. This will mean that they know exactly how tribunals work and what evidence tribunals are looking for.

The NAS also has a tribunal service that you can use to support you if you go through this process. If it does come to that, you have nothing to lose by going. But make sure you use the supports that are out there to get the Statement as tight as you can and worded correctly. Again the Tribunal Service at the NAS can help with that.

Also, as the school has said that your son will not cope in year 3 as there are no TAs in that year, ask them to put that in writing to you. Or again send in a letter stating that further to our conversation on XXXX you informed me that you are concerned about my son moving to year 3 as he presently as xxx hours one to one support in year 2, and you explained to me that in year 3 there are no TAs at all and that it is your opinion that XXX will not cope in that classroom environment.'

[Karen A]

And she said he is not allowed to ask - we sit him there when he is disruptive

 

Hi connieruff.That is a very telling comment.It sounds like a time out area used as a disciplinary measure then rather than a workstation.

I would be concerned about what the outreach person is up to too.

I think it may be better to leave out information that suggests that the school are not doing a good job when you write the letter requesting a Statutary Assessment..The LEA may well use any critiscism of the school and take it back to the school as evidence to tell them to to do better.It amounts to saying that school are not using the delegated funding and should do so.The LA will need evidence from the school that the school have done eveything possible in order to support your child using delegated funding with little impact in order to consider a Statutary Assessment.To suggest otherwise could be to shoot yourself in the foot.

 

I think it is better to attemp to word the letter in such a way that it suggests that the school have made an effort but your child is still not making progress [or failing to make progress or any stronger term that you can honestly use].

I would not personally see a solicitor at this stage unless you have a friend who can offer free advice.

There is a standard letter requesting a Statutary Assessment on the IPSEA web site that I will find in a minute.I don't think you need to go into a lot of detail.If your request for a Statutary Assessment is turned down you can appeal via tribunal and may consider consulting a solictor at that stage.Karen.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Karen A

[Karen A]

http://www.ipsea.org.uk/sevenfixes.htm#RequestingAssessment

This is the information which includes a standard letter from IPSEA .Karen.

[Karen A]

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1763&a=3232

This might be useful too.

[Karen A]

http://www.autism.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly....1763&a=8791

This one might be helpful too.

[Sally44]

As Karen has said the LEA will use what the school says against them. They also turned it back onto the school and how they should be supporting my son. But you can still produce evidence to prove that that school is never going to be able to meet his needs - if that is the case. And it does depend on the relationship you have with the school and the professionals involved with your son. And the fact that you have to put everything down in writing. Even if everyone refuses to reply to your letters that is still very damning evidence at a tribunal. If they are meeting his needs or are able to meet them then they should be willing and able to put that in writing.

The school did confirm that they couldn't meet my sons needs because they listed all the input they had received from the EP and the Autism Outreach Teacher since school first raised their concerns about my son (which was none from the EP (after the initial assessment at the level of School Action Plus) , and less than 2 days in a year from the AAT). That in no way could train up a mainstream school to meet his needs. The EP was not used because of the quota system ie. the school had used their allocated EP time on other more disruptive children). The AAT had over 200 mainstream children on her books and she works alone. The SALT had not been into school for nearly a year and would speak with the TA over the phone to see if my son had reached his SALT targets. (TAs are not qualified to make clinical decisions about reaching targets). The inclusion officer also said at a meeting (with the parent partnership present), that my request for a dedicated teaching assistant if he remained in his current school 'simply would not happen'. So school were saying they couldn't meet his needs, and the LEA, EP and AAT were refusing the level of input the school said they needed to train up and meet his needs. The EP and AAT reports towards the Statutory Assessment talked about a dedicated teaching environment (autism unit), and the LEA completely disregarded that. The Autism Unit had severely autistic children, which my son isn't. He could cope mainstream, if supported to the same level he would receive in the autism unit. That is eventually what we got. It is all about evidence of what your child can and cannot do. As my son is verbal and does want to interact and play - but doesn't know how to - an autism unit of children incapable of social interaction was not a relevant peer group.

So you do need to get a picture of exactly what your son needs in terms of supports, structures etc and who should provide that, how often etc and whether the mainstream school is ever going to be able to provide that.

Through dedicated funding there is no reason why the school cannot provide a teaching assistant for year 3. Is your son's level of need such that it must be a dedicated one (ie. would different TAs cause him extra anxiety, make it harder to learn, cause behavioural probelms etc)? Would the TA or dedicated TA need to have experience and expertise in Aspergers? Dedicated funding only goes up to 15 hours per week per child. And that doesn't have to be one to one, it is usually small group work. Would small group work be enough? What about the rest of the time in school? Does he need support during all lessons, some lessons, what about on the playground and during dinnertime etc. If his needs are such that he always has to be working in small group work and also needs some one to one support and the regular use of his workstation then that is not a mainstream classroom environment (although through a statement you could get that level of support in a mainstream school). That is more an Enhanced Resource classroom environment - so that maybe the placement you aim for. Some children do have some bizarre supports that are full on during the morning, but with nothing in the afternoon! How does that work? How can a child that needs such a high level of support, suddenly be able to cope in the afternoon all by themselves?

[Karen A]

As Karen has said the LEA will use what the school says against them. They also turned it back onto the school and how they should be supporting my son. But you can still produce evidence to prove that that school is never going to be able to meet his needs - if that is the case. And it does depend on the relationship you have with the school and the professionals involved with your son. And the fact that you have to put everything down in writing. Even if everyone refuses to reply to your letters that is still very damning evidence at a tribunal. If they are meeting his needs or are able to meet them then they should be willing and able to put that in writing.

The school did confirm that they couldn't meet my sons needs because they listed all the input they had received from the EP and the Autism Outreach Teacher since school first raised their concerns about my son (which was none from the EP (after the initial assessment at the level of School Action Plus) , and less than 2 days in a year from the AAT). That in no way could train up a mainstream school to meet his needs. The EP was not used because of the quota system ie. the school had used their allocated EP time on other more disruptive children). The AAT had over 200 mainstream children on her books and she works alone. The SALT had not been into school for nearly a year and would speak with the TA over the phone to see if my son had reached his SALT targets. (TAs are not qualified to make clinical decisions about reaching targets). The inclusion officer also said at a meeting (with the parent partnership present), that my request for a dedicated teaching assistant if he remained in his current school 'simply would not happen'. So school were saying they couldn't meet his needs, and the LEA, EP and AAT were refusing the level of input the school said they needed to train up and meet his needs. The EP and AAT reports towards the Statutory Assessment talked about a dedicated teaching environment (autism unit), and the LEA completely disregarded that. The Autism Unit had severely autistic children, which my son isn't. He could cope mainstream, if supported to the same level he would receive in the autism unit. That is eventually what we got. It is all about evidence of what your child can and cannot do. As my son is verbal and does want to interact and play - but doesn't know how to - an autism unit of children incapable of social interaction was not a relevant peer group.

So you do need to get a picture of exactly what your son needs in terms of supports, structures etc and who should provide that, how often etc and whether the mainstream school is ever going to be able to provide that.

Through dedicated funding there is no reason why the school cannot provide a teaching assistant for year 3. Is your son's level of need such that it must be a dedicated one (ie. would different TAs cause him extra anxiety, make it harder to learn, cause behavioural probelms etc)? Would the TA or dedicated TA need to have experience and expertise in Aspergers? Dedicated funding only goes up to 15 hours per week per child. And that doesn't have to be one to one, it is usually small group work. Would small group work be enough? What about the rest of the time in school? Does he need support during all lessons, some lessons, what about on the playground and during dinnertime etc. If his needs are such that he always has to be working in small group work and also needs some one to one support and the regular use of his workstation then that is not a mainstream classroom environment (although through a statement you could get that level of support in a mainstream school). That is more an Enhanced Resource classroom environment - so that maybe the placement you aim for. Some children do have some bizarre supports that are full on during the morning, but with nothing in the afternoon! How does that work? How can a child that needs such a high level of support, suddenly be able to cope in the afternoon all by themselves?

 

Hi Sally.

I think that it worth saying that as far as I am aware there is no agreement across the country regarding dedicated funding.

Although the rule may apply in your area I think LAs decide locally on what level of support requires a Statement.For children without a Statement there are no requirements to provide specific TA support either one to one or in groups.There are in fact no requirements legally for schools to employ additional staff at all unless a child has a Statement.The only legal requirement is that the school have sufficient adults to maintain the required adult to child ratios.This is only an issue where class sizes exceed a specific number or perhaps in reception classess .

 

I think it is worth also offering another perspective especially since in my area there are no Enhanced Classroom Environments....the choice is specialist provision or mainstream.

Ben is funded by a Statement of SEN for full time support in mainstream.He has a dedicated TA who supports him throughout the day.He is included in all areas of the curriculum.Although he finds some things difficult Ben has made greater progress than we could ever have hoped for.He certainly does not have a bizarre system of support documented in his Statement.

I am really pleased that an Enhanced Resource classroom environment has worked well for your son.However I don't think there is a one time solution to the needs of each child with AS.To preempt Statutary Assessment by suggesting the chosen option for provision is in my opinion to do the same thing that LAs are so often slated for when they will only support inclusion and refuse to consider Specialist Provision.It amounts to a blanket policy.

In my opinion the most appropriate way to attempt to obtain satisfactory provision is to request a Statutary Assessment of SEN.The Code Of Practice states that any recommendations regarding the sort of placement should be made after a Statutary Assessment once there is a clear picture of a child's specific needs.

I think that to support one specific type of provision before an Assessment has even been agreed is to pre-empt assessment.Karen.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Karen A

[Karen A]

So they are saying they have already decided there will be no TAs in class 3 regardless of the needs of the children? That is not on - every year the school should reassess the needs of each class and use the TAs accordingly. I don't know of many primary schools that don't have a TA in each class, at least for the morning sessions.

 

If he gets a Statement then the school has to provide the help (whether it is the LA or the school that pays for it - that is not your problem).

 

Hi.Having just posted on a similar topic I thought I would say......I know of one primary school that does not have a TA in each class.For the whole of last year the only TA in Ben's class was the one funded by the LA via a Statement for him .That is what happens when the HT decides that she would rather use her budget on other things than staff.

I talked at length with the LA regarding this situation.I was told that it up to the HT how she spends the buget for SEN.In theory if the HT could demonstrate that other means than staff could be used to support a documented IEP for a child without a Statement there is little anyone can do.

We have similar problems this year regarding the SENCO who is excellent but now only works one day per week.There is no cover on other days at all.I talked to ACE who said there is actually no legal requirement to have a SENCO either as far as they are aware.

I will just say before you ask why I am not moving Ben elsewhere that he leaves in July as he is in year 6. Karen.

 

[Karen A]

Thank you all so much for the replies.

I now will start the statement ball rolling. One question: should I get an ed phychologist in first or not? Do I have to employ one?

Also he is sitting his Key Stage 1 SATS soon, and I know that this will be very stressful for him and demotivate him even more. I've had a look at the sample papers and no way is he going to be able to do this.

Are the schools supposed to make special provision for him as he has Aspergers?

Also can I take him out of school altogther while this is going on? Is there a legal obligation for him to participate in the SATS?

Are the SATS papars marked by his teacher?

 

Sorry for the amount of questions here.

Cheers,

C

 

Hi.I have been reading through the thread and just thought I would say.If you have decided to request a Statutary Assessment and think that your child can cope with SATS without getting completely stressed it might be worth considering allowing him to try.This is especially the case if you think he will not do well.Evidence of being significantly behind in SATS would be useful in supporting your case.Karen.

 

[Karen A]

It is probably better to just apply for the Statutory Asessment - if the LA agree to assess, then they will send in the EP. You could pay for an EP assessment, but the LA will probably ignore the findings anyway (as if you pay them, EPs will say what you like - says the LA) and the school may not allow your EP to go into the school anyway.

 

Hi connieruff.If you are considering paying for an EP assessment I thought it worth flagging up the useful comment made by Kazzen earlier.

I hope that you are able to obtain a Statutary Assessment without going to tribunal.However even at tribunal others on the Forum have found that the LA may produce their own evidence to disregard private assessments.They can be successful.

If you request a Statutary Assessment then the LA will request EP assessments as part of the process.Whether the LA EP assessment is supportive or not it is the one that the LA will have regard to when deciding whether to issue a Statement.Karen.

 

 

[Sally44]

Private EPs cannot say what they like. LEAs can make any comment about whoever does reports. The aim is to try to stop you getting them. A private report is just as valid as a LEA or NHS report. The LEA Salt completely agreed with the 52 page private report. Infact she made additions to it. And she was able to do that because private or LEA SALTs use the same assessment material. So once we had our assessment results through our private SALT, the LEA has to conduct other assessments and get totally different results to ours. There is no way that that is going to happen. We are not talking about quacks here, we are talking about professionals who are working independently now, but whom have worked for the LEA and NHS as part of their development.

Our LEA also tells parents not to use ISPEA because they are unqualified and unprofessional and will not be recognised by the Panel at Tribunal - that is incorrect and is an attempt to undermine parents rights to get an accurate picture of their child's difficulties.

If anyone from the LEA says something like that to you ask them to put it in writing. Bet you never get the letter.

If you ask for a Statutory Assessment the LEA EP has to do a report - as far as I know. So it is worth waiting to see what they come up with first.

 

Different LEAs do have different policies regarding Statutory Assessments. I am not sure what the legal position is. For example some LEAs will not agree to a Statutory Assessment if the child is going to remain in a mainstream school. My EP would not agree to a SA if I had attempted to keep my son in the school he was previously at.

 

Some LEAs will not agree to a SA on a diagnosis of Aspergers (or even autistic spectrum disorder) alone. The child has to have complex needs - which you need written evidence of through the LEA and NHS professionals. That is the difficult evidence to obtain, especially if SALT, EP, AAT etc are not seeing your child at all, or there has been a long gap (typically 2+ years since School Action Plus, and their advice at that time is now completely out of date). But IEPs are also evidence of progress or lack of progress.

 

If the school is not required to provide a TA from year 3, and the school is saying that your son needs one. Then that is very important evidence to get in writing, as this indicates that he needs a Statement to get the TA support he needs.

 

I didn't realise that dedicated funding altered between LEAs. I know our LEA also has an additional system for extra support called Top Up Hours. The bizarre support levels I mentioned were at this stage, not a Statemented child. I don't understand how a child can need to be supported in the moring (or afternoon), and gets that because the dedicated funding is there. But for the remainder of the day (when they still need that same level of support), they don't get any. I have seen this many times with children in school.

 

To Karen: In our LEA an Enhanced Resource class is still mainstream. What it means is that it has a higher level of children on school action plus and with Statements in some classes. Because of that there is a higher ratio of staff to children, typically 1 teacher and 2.5 TAs in some classes. Some children in those classes will mostly do small group work within this class. During whole class teaching those children are usually taken out for their individual work programmes or therapies. But breaktimes and dinnertimes and with the rest of the class/school. It is like a classroom in Bens school where there are around 5+ children having the same level of supports as your son is receiving. Also all the teachers and TAs have regular training on ASDs. This school also has a separate Autism Unit. My son doesn't use this unit at all. There isn't much (if any) cross over between the unit and the school because the children in the unit are too severe from a social interaction point of view. But the staff in the unit are highly skilled and their experience is also used for advice in the mainstream school. So Enhanced Resource is just a name for extra support in mainstream. But the LEA keep it to a ratio eg. no more than 5 children per class, so there are limited places. I presume this concentration of ASD children in a mainstream provision was provided simply because so many parents wanted that. Ie. a mainstream environment, but with more ASD children throughout the school (in the high and low ability classes) and more expertise in the staff.

 

Although some areas may just have mainstream or special needs school, that LEA is required to meet the child's need by providing an appropriate educational environment and an appropriate peer group. But I think the LEA are only legally required to provide that through a Statement and what it contains. So prior to a Statement you are gathering evidence that the current school, or support within the school, is not meeting your child's needs. In our area a child going to a special needs school has to be Statemented anyway. I think the fact the school has said they don't think your son will cope in Junior School, and that they don't typically provide a TA in year 3 should be put in writing to you. Regarding SATs, have school even bought that up with you? If the school thinks he needs access to a TA, how do they think he is going to do SATs independently? If he does poorly, or cannot do them at all, (or has a meltdown because it is a different routine on that day), that is evidence (if the school tell you when he gets upset).

 

To Connieruff: From one of the earlier posts, I am a bit concerned about your son being laughed at by other children. That isn't on. If there is so little understanding within the school, and the teaching staff are not doing anything to address that, then your child is going to experience being made fun of and he may not have the social skills to deal with that, or it may show itself in other bad behaviour which they might attempt to punish him for.

 

 

[connieruff]

Hi Sally

Re the other children laughing at my son in class, well I've just come back from a day out with a friend of my sons who sits next to him. He told me that there are three boys who laugh at my son in the class and my son just has to get up and walk or talk and they laugh at him, it is the same three who I had suspected. I asked this boy what the teacher and the TAs do while this is going on and he said she/they don't see it, and if this boy complains to this teacher she doesn't take any notice.

I can tell you that when you are driving along and someone is telling you your son is bullied like that I nearly swerved off the road I was so angry. I knew it was happening, but I thought it was stopping, as I had written a letter to the teacher explaining my concerns. She did not reply to the letter. Now this may be the cause of his meltdown, or one of the causes anyway, and I have no idea what to do now, do I complain to the head - to the governers? - or leave it as I have just sent off my letter for a request for SA. Will the LEA note that I have complained about bullying again and think that if the school can effectively deal with the bullying then no need for a SA? The mood I am in now I feel like taking on all of the teachers in a bare knuckle fight.

Thanks everyone for the supportive, informative replies.

Cxx

[chris54]

The reason the teacher doesn't See it happening is because that is the easy option, Pretend it isn't happening and it will go away. Well it wont and I would be down that school first thing start of term and ask the head teacher what she is going to do about the bullying. Contact the governors and the LA about it as well.

 

If the school are in denial about bullying it may not be address in any SA.

[Sally44]

My son also used to be made fun of. He has an American accent (picked up off TV), strange intonation and emphasis the wrong sylabel of words. He also used to need to wear ear defenders at dinnertime/playtime and in assembly. I wrote in a number of times about incidents that took place. I was always told by my daughter or other children because my son said nothing. Put it in writing. Tell them you have been told by another child that (and name the children) are laughing at your child because of how he talks etc. Say that as your son has an ASD he has difficulties with language and social communication and that he will not know how to deal with these situations. Say it is unacceptable for a vulnerable child to be treated in this way and that it is affecting his self esteem. Don't just say these things in school. Put it in a letter and ask the school to respond with how they are going to make sure this does not happen in the future.

I had so many instances like this that in the end the headmistress wrote me a letter saying that 'it is becoming more and more obvious to us that you are not happy with the level of support and provison in this school and it might be advisable to look at alternative arrangements. We have to cater for all the children in this school and we cannot change all of our ways of doing things just for one child'. I used that as evidence that this school was not suitable for my child. He is now at a school that has experience of ASDs. That type of behaviour is not tolerated in this school. All the children accept the other children because they are taught about how their diagnosis affects them. For example the whole school learns sign language to enable mainstream and ASD children to be able to communicate. Because sometimes when a child with an ASD is upset/angry etc - even if they are verbal - they can find it easier to sign than to speak. Not all parents are happy with this school. Some parents are moving their 'typical' children into other mainstream schools. But you are better off without those types.

It's okay to get angry. Just make sure you keep your goal insight and don't just get abusive or emotional. But I have been at meetings where I have been very close to hitting the inclusion officer. Especially when they denied my son a school place at the school he is now at. The reason she gave was that 'children with ASDs need alot of support and routine. These classrooms have a set limit of ASD children because just adding one more child to that class can upset the balance and cause those children an enormous amount of upset and distress'. To which I replied 'I agree with everything you say, however you seem to forget that you are denying access to my child who also has an ASD and who is also extremely distraught and upset on a daily basis in his current school and you are denying him access to the kind of school environment he needs'. Anyway, we won in the end. So it is possible. Infact it is more possible than impossible.