not sure what to call this.. :(

[latmaz]

just wanted to come here and vent i suppose as i feel people here may actually understand how i feel

 

have been trying to get a dx for my son for over 3yrs now. i get pushed from dr to school to TASCC to CAHMS back to the school etc etc. whenever they see ds he is cool calm and collected so apparently he is fine

 

not so fine tho that he has been excluded twice and has had a number of HUGE blowups in school. we have had incidents at home and we are now at the point of having to physcially restrain him at times to stop him hurting himself. us or the house

 

today i went out for half hour.. yes a whole half hour (he was at a friends house). i get a call from her saying there had been an incident and he has been arrested!!! she had let them go to the shop (2mins away)

 

i get home seems the shopkeeper accused him of stealing, he said no i was about to ask u how much this was, the shopkeeper then locked the door of the shop, called the police and followed ds round the shop yelling at him until they arrived. apparently the shopkeepers wife tried to calm ds down but her husband kept yelling

 

do i have to tell u want happened next? he went into a blow up, threw things across the shop, kicked shelves, called the shopkeeper a few choice names (apparently some were racist) and gerneally went mad causing a fair amount of damage.

 

so now hes been charged with theft and racially aggravated criminal damage. if he pleads guilty the police said he will get a caution if not it will have to go to court .... all i can do is sit here and cry right now. i have absolutely no idea what i am going to do.

 

my ex, his dad, refuses to belive there is a problem with him other than hes playing up!!! he hasnt seen his dad for a month cos dad cant cope with his behaviour and their constant arguing was making it harder for everyone as ds was getting so stressed everytime he went there

 

and i know none of u can help but just getting it down somewhere where people might have some inkling of what i am going thru helps .. so thanks for reading or should i say letting me write it out

 

ok best shut up now

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sally44]

What an awful situation to be in.

Can you afford to pay to get a private diagnosis? This will probably be the fasted option.

Are there any special schools for ASD in your area that can see your son and diagnose him?

 

Although having a diagnosis is not an excuse, it would help explain some of his behaviour and it should then help you and your son to get some help in school and at home.

 

Phone up the NAS and/or IPSEA and get their advice. I think you need to write a strongly worded letter to whomever it concerns to get your son seen and diagnosed. Why hasn't he been dx so far? Just because he behaves when he is being assessed? If so, then get letters from school about exclusions and behaviour, from your husband if he will agree to write about behavioural problems he has with him, anyone who can back up what you are saying. Put in your letter that this lack of a diagnosis is causing your son not to receive the help and support he needs and that you are afraid he is going to end up in jail due to the system failing him.

 

Is there any other route other than CAHMS? If so go back to your GP and ask for a referal to a MDT that has experience of AS, as CAHMS do not appear experienced in this area (if that is the case).

 

I asked my son's school to put in writing how my son had needed two TAs to calm him down for over 30 mins and that they were both fearful that he would attack them - he didn't thankfully (he was 7 then).

 

Have you mentioned to the police that you suspect he is on the autistic spectrum?

Have you been to any local law centre incase you need help?

[av16]

Really sorry you are going through this <'>

[latmaz]

thank you both so much for your replys, it does help

 

sally i have considered a private diagnosis but not sure where to go or who to ask, let alone whether we could afford it. we live in a very rural part of essex

 

will look into NAS and IPSEA as u suggest, i have written a couple of as u say strongly worded letters to both dr and the school and pleaded with them for some help. the dr said they have done a referral to someone in ingatestone but not sure who that is at the moment or how long its going to take

 

my ex wont do anything as far as he is concerned hes just losing his temper and has to control it. i dont think the school have ever seen him as bad as he tends to just run out the class and hide somewhere to calm down. this is something i have taught him to do over the years but of course this wasnt an option yesterday as the shopkeeper locked him in

 

did mention to the policeman yesterday about aspergers and he agreed that he thought ds could be aspergers or ADHD as the behaviour was out of all normality. not sure we have a lawcentre either but will look into that

 

 

again thankyou both for your replies, it helped a little to write it down

 

[Stella63]

Hi Latmaz,

 

Your post brought back some really bad memories for me (theres some old posts on here when we were really going through it) and I felt I had to say something to you.

 

My eldest had always had anger issues and was in trouble at school virtually from day one. He was labeled naughty and I was made very much to feel that it was down to bad parenting. Back then we had no idea about AS or ADHD and the school were unwilling to pursue any kind of dx. Things got worse at secondary school and he was excluded so many times. We finally got a dx of Aspergers only after my youngest was dx'ed and the doctor who remembered AJ from primary school asked if she could look at him as well. We had no help from CAHMS, they refused to see AJ on a 1-1 basis cos they felt that he didn't want to change his pattern of behaviour. In the end we went privately to a psychiatrist who then dx'ed ADHD and it was off the scale. Around the same time AJ started going out and getting into trouble with the police, drug taking, anti social behaviour etc and we had him arrested several times for threatening behaviour towards us and our house, finding drugs in his room - we showed no mercy by this time.

 

The best help and support finally came from the Youth Justice who automatically get involved when youngsters are arrested. AJ had a counsellor and we had a parent support worker who was absolutely brilliant.

 

Since AJ has left school life is a lot better (nowhere near perfect!). He has calmed down and very rarely loses his temper. He has stopped smashing holes in walls etc and not been in trouble with the police for quite some time (still don't trust him so not sure whether he has just got better at evading them!). Unfortunately he is now unemployed, messed up his education, got a criminal record and not much hope of getting a job in the current climate.

 

But I think the point I wanted to get over is that there is light at the end of the tunnel. I don't know how old your boy is but I would certainly try and find a private psychiatrist and pursue the ADHD /ADD route. Also check your NHS hospitals as they have recently had NICE guidelines about dxing and supporting youngsters with ADHD. I am on the commitee for our hospital as a parent and things are beginning to happen.

 

Hope this helps in some small way.

 

Stella x

[NobbyNobbs]

perhaps try to bring about a compromise with your ex by agreeing on some key points if you think it will be a problem. the biggest i would think is that even if your son does have AS he also HAS to learn to control his temper, as what he did is totally unacceptable even in those strange circumstances. i know a lot of people who fear labelling a child because it creates an environment of excuse where they can do whatever they like because they have X.

[mummybird]

Hi there, I`ve just joined this forum because I have been having similar problems with my 13 year old son. Really feel for you. My son attacked me when I told him I was pregnant, and he`s had to be pulled off me on other occassions, but I know he is not bad, he just get rages when he can`t cope. I also feel we need a diagnosis so people understand, and not to make excuses for him. My son is also able to appear reasonable to other people, and I feel like when I try to talk about it some people think I am making it up, or exagarating. So I`m also worried that he will seem ok when assessed. Sending you love and best wishes, and hope you find someone professional who gets what is going on with your son. We really do need to find help for our kids before they go out there in the wide world. Good luck with it! x

[latmaz]

stella thankyou so much for your reply it made me cry tho. i do so hope we dont have to go the road u did before we get somewhere., the smashng of holes in walls hit home as we have yet another hole in his door after the last blow out as we didnt get to restrain him quick enough

 

didnt know about the youth justice but have to go see the police again on wed so will ask about that then . forgot to say ds is just 13. can i approach a NHS hospital myself? i have no idea how i would go about getting a psychiatrist and am worried in case i pick the wrong one

 

nobby i do think thats what my ex thinks that we are just making excuses for him BUT if we had a DX then at least he would understand that it is not that easy for ds to just stop doing what he is doing. unfortunately comprimise is not a word my ex understands its his way or no way

 

mummybird u sound like u are having the exact same problems as me, lets hope we can both get somewhere soon.

 

when ds has spoken to other people they go on about how bright, well behaved and calm he is so there cant be an underlying problem. oh how i wish they could see him at the other times

 

thank u all so much for your support and concern

 

 

 

 

 

[Sally44]

In our area we don't seem to go through CAHMS at all. Infact being on the spectrum is not a 'mental' condition it is neurological. From other posts I have read there does not appear to be the experience of understanding or diagnosing ASDs. So try to go via another route.

The NAS helpline might be able to help identify where you could get a dx in your area. Some ASD only schools do see and assess/dx children.

My son is diagnosed as being on the autistic spectrum with sensory issues as well. Since then he has had other co-morbid dx, mainly around language and auditory processing problems.

Anyway, he can talk one to one with anyone if he wants. At other times he can appear totally unaware of anyone or anything around him. When he gets upset it is like a volcanoe errupting. And afterwards he is mortified at the things he has said and done. When children on the spectrum get overwhelmed they cannot control it and they cannot stop the feelings. That is exactly what my son says to me. They do not have the mechanisms or skills to deal with it in any other way. It is like they do not have the filters that we have. All their emotions erupt to the surface.

Does your local childrens hospital have a multi disciplinary team that sees and assesses children for ASDs?

My son was seen by a developmental paediatrician, clinical psychologist, educational psychologist, speech and language therapist and an occupational therapist.

[chris54]

I would get some legal help before you agree to anything.

 

The charge of theft, it would be hard to get this to stick as it would be shopkeepers work against your sons, If he had not left the shop what makes the shopkeeper think he was steeling it.

 

Second if you are locked in a shop and having abuse hurled at you it is not surprising if you react in this way.

It could even be a case of false imprisonment by the shopkeeper and he could end up being prosecuted.

I think if you got the right person on your side there is a chance that all changes could be dropped.

 

The advice that I have had from a police officer is always get legal representation, even if it is only the duty solicitor.

Edited February 20, 2010 by chris54

[Karen A]

In our area we don't seem to go through CAHMS at all. Infact being on the spectrum is not a 'mental' condition it is neurological. From other posts I have read there does not appear to be the experience of understanding or diagnosing ASDs. So try to go via another route.

The NAS helpline might be able to help identify where you could get a dx in your area. Some ASD only schools do see and assess/dx children.

My son is diagnosed as being on the autistic spectrum with sensory issues as well. Since then he has had other co-morbid dx, mainly around language and auditory processing problems.

Anyway, he can talk one to one with anyone if he wants. At other times he can appear totally unaware of anyone or anything around him. When he gets upset it is like a volcanoe errupting. And afterwards he is mortified at the things he has said and done. When children on the spectrum get overwhelmed they cannot control it and they cannot stop the feelings. That is exactly what my son says to me. They do not have the mechanisms or skills to deal with it in any other way. It is like they do not have the filters that we have. All their emotions erupt to the surface.

Does your local childrens hospital have a multi disciplinary team that sees and assesses children for ASDs?

My son was seen by a developmental paediatrician, clinical psychologist, educational psychologist, speech and language therapist and an occupational therapist.

 

Sally.In many areas of the country probably CDT do not see children once they have reached school age.They certainly do not see teenagers age 13.CAMHS may be the only option other than a private diagnosis [probably by a psychiatrist] which may be extremely costly.

This only leaves CAMHS.Those CAMHS psychiatrists who are involved in the diagnostic process of children with AS are already paediatricians who have undergone years of specialist training to become Child and Adolescent Pscychiatrists.ASD is regarded as a paeediatric mental health developmental condition with a neurological basis.Many in fact the majority of mental health conditions have a biological basis.I am not sure what you regard as 'mental conditions' as many including most forms of dementia,many forms of depression and PTSD have a neurological basis.

There are very few mental health conditions that are now considered not to be neurological in nature.Mental Ill Health is by definition an illness which is neurlogical in nature.

For most areas of the country the Specialist Multidisciplinary Team with responsibility for diagnosis of ASD in school age children is headed by a CAMHS Child And Adolescent Psychiatrist.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Karen A

[Karen A]

latmaz I am very sorry this sounds like a very difficult situation. <'>

I have years of experience of extensive support from CAMHS.I do not pretend that they always get eveything right.However where teenagers are experiencing stress for whatever reason CAMHS professionals often have a lot of experience.

The CDT route is very helpful for pre-school children where there are early concerns.However most CDTs would not provide support to teenagers.Paediatricians are undoubtedly very experienced with young children.However CAMHS professionals support parents in your situation for various reasons on a regular basis.CAMHS should also provide an urgent assessment where it is considered there is suffficient need.The A and E in your area should have access to a CAMHS professional on call if it is regarded as necessary.Assessment for an AS diagnosis is likely to take months rather than weeks.

Young Minds and Parentline Plus both offer a telephone support service.I have used both of them in the past and would recomend them.Young Minds can arrange for a specific professional to call back if needed.

Karen.

 

http://www.youngminds.org.uk/front-page

http://www.parentlineplus.org.uk/

 

Edited to add.

If you go to the NAS web site and then go to ''information for parents'' and then ''Encounters with the law'' they have some excellent information under several headings.

Karen.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Karen A

[Tally]

They are meant to wait until you actually leave the shop before trying to stop you. Even if you have concealed an item, you have not stolen it until you have left the shop without paying, which your son hadn't.

 

I'm afraid I don't know where you stand with the rest of it. It's more complicated, since your son actually did do the things they are accusing him of.

 

The court may be able to order support that you couldn't get through other channels, so it may not be all bad if it ends up going to court.

 

So sorry this has happened. Hope you can get the help you need.

[lil_me]

I was just thinking there about a similar case near me, once the Youth Justice team got involved it was the best thing that ever happened for them as the support was great and he was pushed ahead of the queue for his ADHD dx the young man has cleared his name from the provoked charge with the help of a solicitor and now on a training scheme for young people with learning needs.

 

Good luck

[latmaz]

thankyou all once again. its funny some of the things u have brought up have been going thru my mind the last day or so. he hadnt left the shop and did offer to pay but the shopkeeper wouldnt accept it and kept yelling thereby provoking him.

 

i cant make up my mind whether i get a solicitor to fight it or whether if ds 'got off' it would send a message to him sayng he can get away with stuff or whether to take the caution to teach him he cant. but i truly think as sallys son says he does not have the ability to control this volcano like temper. lil me i also wondered if we let it go to court whether it could be a good thing as they would HAVE to look into a dx more. its a dilemma

 

we saw CAHMS 2yrs ago but it was just an ordinary nurse who said ds related well to her and she saw no problem or need to refer him further. we also saw TASCC team (now disbanded) and they said the same. but of course he was calm and just agreed with everything said.

 

i truly want to thank you all for your suggestions and back up, i have no one i can talk to about this other than here so it helps me so much

 

 

 

 

[Sally44]

Knew you'd pick me up on that Karen as soon as I posted it.

But if this child has only been seen by a nurse at CAHMS are they qualified to dismiss it and not to any further assessments at all?

What is happening regarding the police. Is your son being charged with anything?

Have you talked to the police about your concerns that the shopkeeper locked him in the shop?

Does your son have any history of stealing? Or other impulsive behaviour?

Who referred you to CAHMS. Can you go back to them and ask for assessments to be carried out due to the seriousness of this situation?

Can you speak with the Youth Justice Team and see if they can help at all and give suggestions?

Again the NAS may be able to help you with schools in your area that could see him.

So far, it sounds like your son has not even been assessed. Everyone is assuming he is okay because he can hold a conversation. Many on the spectrum can do that. You need more indepth investigations.

Have you looked at the criteria for a diagnosis of an ASD or AS? What does your son do that you think puts him on the spectrum?

It can be very useful to keep a diary and write down everything you suspect as being on the spectrum, so that when you go to see anyone you can give precise details.

[Karen A]

thankyou all once again. its funny some of the things u have brought up have been going thru my mind the last day or so. he hadnt left the shop and did offer to pay but the shopkeeper wouldnt accept it and kept yelling thereby provoking him.

 

i cant make up my mind whether i get a solicitor to fight it or whether if ds 'got off' it would send a message to him sayng he can get away with stuff or whether to take the caution to teach him he cant. but i truly think as sallys son says he does not have the ability to control this volcano like temper. lil me i also wondered if we let it go to court whether it could be a good thing as they would HAVE to look into a dx more. its a dilemma

 

we saw CAHMS 2yrs ago but it was just an ordinary nurse who said ds related well to her and she saw no problem or need to refer him further. we also saw TASCC team (now disbanded) and they said the same. but of course he was calm and just agreed with everything said.

 

i truly want to thank you all for your suggestions and back up, i have no one i can talk to about this other than here so it helps me so much

 

Hi.

I just wanted to check what TASCC team are as I do not know the abbreviation ?

We live in an Inner City borough in East London.We have two lads J [13] and Ben [AS] 11.Although we have had extensive support from CAMHS we have never needed support from youth justice team or social services.However it does appear that teenagers who are considered at risk of offending or vulnerable recieve more support than those who have other difficulties or SEN.A lot of money has been spent in our area on provision for this group.So strange though it may sound the current situation may enable you to obtain some support.

 

Our elder son was the victim of crime earlier this year.We decided to not go ahead with the case in the end.However we got the impression from the police and local MP that a caution is taken very lightly by all concerned.Many youths obtain multiple cautions and the police anticipate that they will not really be effective.I do not know whether the police have any obligation to follow up on a caution with referal to other agencies but I would suspect not.

 

It might be worth obtaining some advice as to how to access the youth justice team in your are to see whether a caution is sufficient to prompt referal.

If your son does have AS and this incident is related to AS then a caution may not have any impact anyway.It may frighten him but would not help him to develop the skills to deal with the situation in a different way.I say if because I do not have enough information and am not experienced enough to know whether your son has AS or whether this incident is related to AS.Just because an individual has AS it does not prevent them having other difficulties in their lives.Also just because an individual has AS it does not follow that if they do something which gets them in trouble it is anything to do with AS.For example if an individual was shop lifting something that related to an obscession then that might be considered AS related then that would be a different situation to a person who had AS happening to be caught shop lifting.

 

So it may be worth thinking about whether it might be worth going to court.Although it is a dilema it might be one way to obtain some support.

Karen.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Karen A

[Karen A]

Knew you'd pick me up on that Karen as soon as I posted it.

.

 

Sorry I had had several glasses of wine and it was late.

 

 

[latmaz]

my thoughts exactly about CAHMS nurse dismissing it i couldnt believe what she said!!

 

he has been charge with theft, criminal damage and we have to go back wed evening for formal interview. i shall raise concerns regarding him being locked in etc then, he went thru a brief phase of taking money from home the odd pound here and there but that stopped.

 

he has been suspended twice from school, has had numerous 'blow ups' and is on report at school now. he has walked out of class a few times, thrown a chair in another class, we have had to restrain him at home a few times etc etc but at other times is completely calm

 

am waiting hearing from dr who has jus referred us to another place, i chased this on friday. dont know how long that will take to come thru of course but i did tell them how urgent this situation now was

 

have emailed the youth justice team today after the earlier suggestion had never heard of them before

 

i have looked at the criteria for AS and i THINK he fits a lot of the criteria, i even did the recent test thing that was on the one show site, i tried to err on the side of good(?) but he still scored over 40 on it. things like u have to be exact in what u say, cant stand sudden noises, takes against certain clothes, has no empathy, cannot read situations, he cant bear to think anything is 'unfair' and often says but he/she wasnt being fair mum, he does not know how to behave in social situations, talks very loud etc i could go on. he is VERY bright and has good vocabulary hence i think they thnk hes ok

 

i also emailed a solicitor i found on the NAS site today and am thinking we should take someone with us next week

 

your advice is just brilliant and its helping me see things i might not have as i flit all over the place in my head

 

forgot to say TASCC stands for TEam around the school child and community. we saw a man there in october who also would not refer ds on as he didnt see there was a 'developmental' problem. no one seems to see a problem but then no one sees behind the scenes, tho sometimes i wonder if it is me

 

Edited February 21, 2010 by latmaz

[Karen A]

my thoughts exactly about CAHMS nurse dismissing it i couldnt believe what she said!!

 

he has been charge with theft, criminal damage and we have to go back wed evening for formal interview. i shall raise concerns regarding him being locked in etc then, he went thru a brief phase of taking money from home the odd pound here and there but that stopped.

 

he has been suspended twice from school, has had numerous 'blow ups' and is on report at school now. he has walked out of class a few times, thrown a chair in another class, we have had to restrain him at home a few times etc etc but at other times is completely calm

 

am waiting hearing from dr who has jus referred us to another place, i chased this on friday. dont know how long that will take to come thru of course but i did tell them how urgent this situation now was

 

have emailed the youth justice team today after the earlier suggestion had never heard of them before

 

i have looked at the criteria for AS and i THINK he fits a lot of the criteria, i even did the recent test thing that was on the one show site, i tried to err on the side of good(?) but he still scored over 40 on it. things like u have to be exact in what u say, cant stand sudden noises, takes against certain clothes, has no empathy, cannot read situations, he cant bear to think anything is 'unfair' and often says but he/she wasnt being fair mum, he does not know how to behave in social situations, talks very loud etc i could go on. he is VERY bright and has good vocabulary hence i think they thnk hes ok

 

i also emailed a solicitor i found on the NAS site today and am thinking we should take someone with us next week

 

your advice is just brilliant and its helping me see things i might not have as i flit all over the place in my head

 

Hi.

I think it would be worth phoning NAS for advice.Your son should have an adult present at interview.

I did some police interviews with J when he was a crime victim last year as the adult present.J is 13 and very mature but we both still found the experience very daunting.

You can also go back to your GP and ask for a referal back to CAMHS if things have changed.

Karen.

 

[Karen A]

my thoughts exactly about CAHMS nurse dismissing it i couldnt believe what she said!!

 

he has been charge with theft, criminal damage and we have to go back wed evening for formal interview. i shall raise concerns regarding him being locked in etc then, he went thru a brief phase of taking money from home the odd pound here and there but that stopped.

 

he has been suspended twice from school, has had numerous 'blow ups' and is on report at school now. he has walked out of class a few times, thrown a chair in another class, we have had to restrain him at home a few times etc etc but at other times is completely calm

 

am waiting hearing from dr who has jus referred us to another place, i chased this on friday. dont know how long that will take to come thru of course but i did tell them how urgent this situation now was

 

have emailed the youth justice team today after the earlier suggestion had never heard of them before

 

i have looked at the criteria for AS and i THINK he fits a lot of the criteria, i even did the recent test thing that was on the one show site, i tried to err on the side of good(?) but he still scored over 40 on it. things like u have to be exact in what u say, cant stand sudden noises, takes against certain clothes, has no empathy, cannot read situations, he cant bear to think anything is 'unfair' and often says but he/she wasnt being fair mum, he does not know how to behave in social situations, talks very loud etc i could go on. he is VERY bright and has good vocabulary hence i think they thnk hes ok

 

i also emailed a solicitor i found on the NAS site today and am thinking we should take someone with us next week

 

your advice is just brilliant and its helping me see things i might not have as i flit all over the place in my head

 

forgot to say TASCC stands for TEam around the school child and community. we saw a man there in october who also would not refer ds on as he didnt see there was a 'developmental' problem. no one seems to see a problem but then no one sees behind the scenes, tho sometimes i wonder if it is me

 

Well whatever the issues are there are obviously difficulties in school if your son has been suspended twice and is on report.

Have school put any support in place such as a behaviour contract ?

They should have had meatings to follow up and agree a way forward with you after the suspensions I would have thought.

 

[Karen A]

http://www.yjb.gov.uk/en-gb/yjs/TheSystem/

This might be useful if you have not found it yet.

Karen.

[latmaz]

thankyou karen yes i emailed somewhere there who covers our area lets hope i get some response tomorrow

 

after the suspension was when they put the report in place. he has been on it 4 weeks and it was due to be reviewed then but they have decided to leave him on report as they feel its helping - maybe it is i dont know. it seems to me he can cope with about 3-4 weeks of school then it gets too much and the meltdowns start

 

behaviour support has been mentioned as has seeing an ed psych. note i say mentioned cos neither has been followed up despite mypushing. we have a new head and i have asked her to help. i suspect i have severely peeved off his PSM but i will keep pushing

 

have pretty much decided to take a solicitor with us on wed even if its the duty one. i wish it was monday rather than sunday so i could actually speak to some people

 

 

[Karen A]

Hi again.

I think it may well be worth being clear that you would like behaviour support and EP to be involved.

Behaviour Support can be very helpful.I would have thought that they should be involved if your son has now been excluded temporarily twice.

If there are any further short term exclusions please ensure that they are appropriately documented as this may also be helpful evidence.

ACE produce some excellent information that I will post for you.

http://www.ace-ed.org.uk/advice-about-educ...mation-pack.htm

Karen.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Karen A

[Grace]

I would get some legal help before you agree to anything.

 

The charge of theft, it would be hard to get this to stick as it would be shopkeepers work against your sons, If he had not left the shop what makes the shopkeeper think he was steeling it.

 

Second if you are locked in a shop and having abuse hurled at you it is not surprising if you react in this way.

It could even be a case of false imprisonment by the shopkeeper and he could end up being prosecuted.

I think if you got the right person on your side there is a chance that all changes could be dropped.

 

The advice that I have had from a police officer is always get legal representation, even if it is only the duty solicitor.

 

Hi,

 

Please do get legal advice - I think Chris is right - I can't imagine how scary that would have been for your son.

 

Just want to say I really feel for you and your son and hope you get some help soon/x

[Sally44]

you can also phone and speak with the Educational Psychologist Department yourself if school are not co-operating. But first send school a letter reminding them of the fact that they said they would refer your son to the EP and you have not heard anything, and since then things have deteriorated. Ask them to confirm in writing that they have referred him.

[Polly]

Sorry to hear what a difficult situation you are in - sounds like some good advice is being given though. I just wanted to say that we had a private ASD assessment (as the waiting list in our area was 2 years, and the one person able to diagnose went off on sick leave). I contacted NAS initially for advice how to find somebody able to assess and diagnose, and we went to a hospital in Yeovil (out of our County) to see a specialist there. It cost £250 - much less than I thought it would be, so it is worth looking into, though I expect it varies greatly depending on where you go.

 

Good Luck. Big Hug. Polly.

[latmaz]

polly thankyou for that , thats less than i thought too. i am going to ring the NAs today myself

 

didnt realise i could approach the ED myself. as ilive in a rural area the whole school is only allocated something like 4 visits a year!!!!! can u imagine that its unbelievable isnt it.

 

karen i read up on the ACE stuff and to be honest i think i could have appealed his exclusion and i did consider it at the time but felt if we went thru with it they would be forced to put some help in place (seems i was wrong about that!)

 

thanks again everyone. sorry i didnt get back yesterday but ended up at the drs myself with a UTI so didnt feel up to much. stll dont but at least i can sit in bed and ring everyone !!

 

 

[babnye1]

Hi

I'm a solicitor - used to specialise in criminal work but not practised since having the kids.

 

To be guilty of theft, the prosecution have to prove that a person has dishonestly appropriated property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it. The two key things usually contested are (a) was the person being dishonest (according to what an ordinary decent person would consider to be dishonest) and did he realise he was being dishonest by those standards, dishonest? and ( did he intend to permanently deprive the other person of it?

 

Ordinarlily, if anything, the police would caution for something like this if this was first offence and there was evidence and an acceptance of guilt. However, they cannot caution if it is denied. A further complication is the racially aggravated offence as there are two tests for prosecution - is there sufficient evidence and is it in the public interest to prosecute. Public policy dictates that it is in the public interest to prosecute crimes of racial aggravation provided there is evidence.

 

To be racially aggravated, then it would have to be shown that either (a) at the time of committing the offence, or immediately before or after doing so, the offender demonstrates hostility towards the victim based on the victim's membership (or presumed membership) of a racial group or ( the offence is motivated (wholly or partly) by hostility towards members of a racial group based on their membership of that group.

 

For a crime like this, it may not necessarily be a defence that a person has AS or ASD (things get complicated here and you need GOOD legal advice) but it is good mitigation (particularly if they are seeking help) and it maybe something which can be used to argue for a discontinuation of the prosecution (depending on the strength of feeling from the 'victim').

 

You need to get legal advice from someone who is a specialist in juvenile practice and tell them everything about this. Many solicitors will say they do criminal work and some will say they do juvenile work too but juvenile work is a specialist field. The courts are more informal, procedure is different and there are services there to offer help and support. if you ring the local youth court and ask for the names of solicitors firms who practice there, they should be able to help. A solicitor can make enquiries with the prosecution about whether this should be proceded with or whether there are other avenues e.g. reparation etc.

 

You can apply to get legal aid

 

The police may be able to refer you to the Youth Justice team or suggest how you can further access advice.

 

Hope that helps

 

 

[latmaz]

yes it helps a lot thankyou

 

from what u said the theft part is debatable as he hadnt even left the shop. the criminal damage yes he did damage things but only after he had been locked in and yelled at for over 15mins. he admits to calling the shopkeeper a racial name but only after he had been locked in etc, in no way was it either cos of his race or cos ds doesnt like indians, it was because he had lost it and said anything that came into his head, he has called me the same name sometimes when angry.

 

the police have offered a caution if he admits all the charges but i am not sure he should. are people allowed to lock children in their shops because they 'believe' they were stealing?

 

i am not sure we are eligible for legal aid unfortunately as we own our house so not sure we could afford to get a defense such as u suggest, reparation isnt possible either as the shopkeeper is on about hundreds of pounds of damage and there is no way we could afford to pay that

 

thanks again for your input

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stella63]

Hi

 

From my recollection of going to court (several times!) with AJ you automatically qualify for legal aid if the child is a minor - it doesn't relate to income or house ownership.

 

Stella x

[justine1]

Hi

I dont really have much advice but I was a very rebellious teen and was caught stealing before(age 14).I had not left the shop,but they spotted me and told me to open my coat and found what I was stealing.They also searched my bag.The had called the police and taken me(and my "friends") to a small office where we were held until the arrived.

 

It was not a pleasant experience.As it was my first offense I had to attend a "workshop"where we discussed how peoples wages are reduced or how people even lose the jobs as a result of theft because of the loss to the shopowner.

 

While I do sympathise with you,I dont see what else the shopowner could have done.If he called the police and let your son go how would the police know where to start looking?I understand that the situation made things worse and he got frustrated and this is where prehaps some understanding (from the court) will come in as I culd never imagine keeping my son locked anywhere even in the home as he would seriousley panick,but again the shopowner did not know of your sons problem he saw two youths stealing and acted how he thought was best.

 

I do hope you can get legal help,most people can eve if they do own their homes,its worth a try.If not many solicitors will allow monthly payments.I wish you all the best.

[KezT]

You can almost certainly get legal aid - almost all criminal cases can.

 

Do get a solicitor - you should have been offered one at the police station? If not they or CAB can recommend one. In extremis, you can use the duty solicitor at court, but better to get one before then, as duty solicitors may not have much time to learn the case before the hearing.

 

The court will often order Pysch reports etc in these types of cases - it may be a way to get some reports/a dx done pretty quickly and for free - it shouldn't have to get to that point but it often does to get anything done Suggest to your solicitor that you would accept such an order and they can push for it. It would also mean that even if found guilty (sounds a bit iffy to me) sentancing will be postponed until reports are in, and ASD may well reduce the sentance.

 

Although taking the caution will make it go away quickly, it will not help in the long run. Only you can decide, but it sounds as though it might be worth going through the court process.

[latmaz]

thanks for the further comments. i got further info today from the boy who was with ds. apparently ds had gone to the till to pay for his things and before he spoke the man said whats that in your pocket, ds said was about to ask u if i had enough for that. which is when the man said dont lie to me u were going to steal etc etc. ds said no i wasnt and here is the money for it. which is when the man locked the door on them. he didnt actually call the police til ds lost it

 

the other boy said he was scared of the man who was quite strident and did ask the shopkeeper to back off a bit cos ds had problems. afterwards when the man was sent into the back room by his wife the other boy was terrified that the man would start on him

 

good point about asking for a psych report via solicitor. am going to ring a couple tomorrow and find out the position re legal aid etc

 

glad to have the support of people who have been thru this altho of course i am sorry any has

 

 

[lil_me]

Shop keeper sounds like he needs a little anger management/customer service training

 

My son frequently puts items in his pockets through fear he'll drop them, as he struggles with motor skills, doesn't mean he won't/can't pay. My elderly relative shops with her trolley filling it then puts it on the belt, never plans in just toddling out with it. I really hope the solicitor you get helps you & your boy, sounds like a nightmare of misunderstanding.

 

If you've seen CAMHS before you could ask for an urgent appointment, they give them here if children are at risk of offending/self harm/harming others & appointments quite quick, then request assessment.

 

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Edited February 23, 2010 by lil_me

[latmaz]

we rang the police last night and told them what happened about with the shopkeeper and now have an incident number ourselves. we are due to speak to them more on wed and have told them we definitely want at least the duty solicitor tho i may see if i can find one before that

 

agreed about the shopkeeper he is not at all well liked in the village and apparently is often yelling at the kids. i rarely go in there but have been told he is a big man, over 6 foot and very broad

 

 

 

[justine1]

That is great that you can meet with the police and explain what your son and his friend have told you.Maybe make some notes before they come,prehaps print of these posts and highlight some important bits.Is there someone who can be there with you,prehaps the other boys mother?I think you need support.

 

I do think all will be well with regards to the charges and I hope your son will be able to get some help and possible dx.

Edited February 23, 2010 by justine1

[Sally44]

polly thankyou for that , thats less than i thought too. i am going to ring the NAs today myself

 

didnt realise i could approach the ED myself. as ilive in a rural area the whole school is only allocated something like 4 visits a year!!!!! can u imagine that its unbelievable isnt it.

 

karen i read up on the ACE stuff and to be honest i think i could have appealed his exclusion and i did consider it at the time but felt if we went thru with it they would be forced to put some help in place (seems i was wrong about that!)

 

thanks again everyone. sorry i didnt get back yesterday but ended up at the drs myself with a UTI so didnt feel up to much. stll dont but at least i can sit in bed and ring everyone !!

 

My son is in an enhanced resource school, which means there are about 5 children per class with an ASD and there is a class in each year that has all SEN children, most of whom are on the spectrum. The EP budget is just 6 hours. Cannot figure out how that number of hours would cover it all unless the EP uses a magic wand.

[Sally44]

yes it helps a lot thankyou

 

from what u said the theft part is debatable as he hadnt even left the shop. the criminal damage yes he did damage things but only after he had been locked in and yelled at for over 15mins. he admits to calling the shopkeeper a racial name but only after he had been locked in etc, in no way was it either cos of his race or cos ds doesnt like indians, it was because he had lost it and said anything that came into his head, he has called me the same name sometimes when angry.

 

the police have offered a caution if he admits all the charges but i am not sure he should. are people allowed to lock children in their shops because they 'believe' they were stealing?

 

i am not sure we are eligible for legal aid unfortunately as we own our house so not sure we could afford to get a defense such as u suggest, reparation isnt possible either as the shopkeeper is on about hundreds of pounds of damage and there is no way we could afford to pay that

 

thanks again for your input

 

 

Legal aid is not about owning your own house. It is means tested. If you are on working family tax credit then you probably won't qualify for it. I think it is mainly for people on income support. However your area should have a Law Centre for advice. But also contact the NAS and IPSEA because if your child is on the spectrum then that is all related to this and the legal side as well.

[Sally44]

we rang the police last night and told them what happened about with the shopkeeper and now have an incident number ourselves. we are due to speak to them more on wed and have told them we definitely want at least the duty solicitor tho i may see if i can find one before that

 

agreed about the shopkeeper he is not at all well liked in the village and apparently is often yelling at the kids. i rarely go in there but have been told he is a big man, over 6 foot and very broad

 

Try not to make this a personal vendetta against the shopkeeper, who may have suffered alot from kids stealing stuff.

Rather focus on the fact that your son did intend to pay, as his friend verifies. That your son is suspected of being on the spectrum - push for assessments. And that locking him in the shop would have caused him to panic and huge anxiety and that the shop keeper should not have done that. Especially as your son had gone to the till to pay. The shopkeeper has no evidence of stealing since he did not leave the shop. Locking your child in the shop could be illegal anyway.

Use any supporting evidence eg. videos etc from NAS or advice they can give about how someone might respond to being locked up. etc.

And use this incident as proof that your son needs to be assessed. If he is not on the spectrum okay. But he is in danger of getting into trouble due to difficulties which may be due to an ASD. He needs to be assessed.