Is it all about academic ability??

[justine1]

Hi everyone

 

I posted the other day about the lovely ASD unit, attached to mainstream, I have been to see.I have told the LEA its where I would like Sam to go.

 

Today I went to see a special school,just in case the above does'nt work out.The school was LOVELY the children all soooooooooo happy and friendly.It is not just ASD it caters for all disabilities but to be honest everyone seems to get on very well.Sam was with me and was so interested in everything and even wanted to join in with one of the classes(which happened to be the class he would be in)

 

My problem is according to his previous mainstream he is very intelligent,he is at average on national curriculum(level 2's) this was done last May/June,don't think much has changed since then.The special school have said this is the level that yr 5 and 6 get in there school,considering Sam is in yr 3 it means he would be way above those in his class.

 

My concern is firstly I am not sure the level's he obtained are accurate, he can hardly write a sentence and his maths is shocking really.He only attended 60% of the school year that yr so it does puzzle me. Don't get me wrong he is bright,he talks alot but not sure how he can apply this as he gets older.(if that makes sense)

 

I know I should be setting my goals higher for my son but at his age should'nt he go to a school where he will learn the basics and social skills which he soooooo needs,and will get from this school. They have a lovely little kitchen with everything at kids level so they can make toast etc. Sam was just so happy have not seen him respond so well to a school before! I am not very confused!Happiness versus reaching his full potential??????????

[Mumble]

It is my strong belief that unless you are happy (I mean happy in terms of having your needs met and feeling safe, not happy in terms of being allowed to do whatever you want, which I'm not sure equates to happiness, but that's another discussion... ) you are not going to learn. However, you're also not going to learn, unless you're in an environment that stimulates you to learn.

 

Perhaps you need to explore what he can gain from each environment, what he may miss out on, and how/where those missing elements can be accounted for. How was 'work' and 'social' balanced/integrated in each environment? What does each school do to address his ASD needs? There's a lot to be said for being the 'big fish' in terms of his work but you also need to think about how he would react if he's too much of a big fish - how has he reacted in the past if he's bored, would this be detrimental to his or to others' education?

 

What would happen to him at each school when he reaches the age of 11? What are the educational trajectories of the pupils at each school? Do either of these fit with where you see Sam's future?

 

I personally wouldn't rely on NC levels but that's easy for me to say as I'm not a parent having to make these decisions. His Y2 results will be teacher assessed, but it's my belief that these are just too narrow to reflect what children can do, especially children with complex difficulties who are potentially uneven across areas within subjects and in their day to day application.

 

I'm guessing that's just confused things further ...

[bid]

Don't know if this helps, but my DH teaches at a secondary school for complex learning difficulties, and they have students who range from those who are still at 'P' levels to those who will do some GCSEs. His current year 10 are almost half and half doing GCSE:Entry level.

 

HTH

 

Bid

Edited February 10, 2011 by bid

[jollypig]

my dd started special school in september at 13 yrs old ,the change in her is amazing to the extent she is being put forward for english GCSEs this june ! i wish we had got her there years ago theres so much more support ans all the children no matter what their issues are come out happy at the end of each day.

[justine1]

It is my strong belief that unless you are happy (I mean happy in terms of having your needs met and feeling safe, not happy in terms of being allowed to do whatever you want, which I'm not sure equates to happiness, but that's another discussion... ) you are not going to learn. However, you're also not going to learn, unless you're in an environment that stimulates you to learn.

 

Perhaps you need to explore what he can gain from each environment, what he may miss out on, and how/where those missing elements can be accounted for. How was 'work' and 'social' balanced/integrated in each environment? What does each school do to address his ASD needs? There's a lot to be said for being the 'big fish' in terms of his work but you also need to think about how he would react if he's too much of a big fish - how has he reacted in the past if he's bored, would this be detrimental to his or to others' education?

 

What would happen to him at each school when he reaches the age of 11? What are the educational trajectories of the pupils at each school? Do either of these fit with where you see Sam's future?

 

I personally wouldn't rely on NC levels but that's easy for me to say as I'm not a parent having to make these decisions. His Y2 results will be teacher assessed, but it's my belief that these are just too narrow to reflect what children can do, especially children with complex difficulties who are potentially uneven across areas within subjects and in their day to day application.

 

I'm guessing that's just confused things further ...

Yes I am very confused No,your thoughts are exactly what I was wondering,thank you so much <'> With my eldest Josh,he has always been more ahead of his peers but it does'nt bother him,though he can be bored at times but teachers usually know how to deal with him.

I have no idea how Sam would react if he was in the same situation He has never been bored in that way because he has never really sat down long enough to work.

 

The school I saw on Monday has a ASD unit at the high school and if he is at the primary he will get priority,so it will be something I wont need to think about much when he is ready to move to secondary school.With the special school I would have to apply for another school which would mean searching all over again.

 

Where do I see Sam??????????? NO idea,honestly I do think he is bright but as I say he can say alot about many things but he cannot put that into practice,if that makes sense.I think the problems he has will definatley effect his career what ever it may be.He does not like to learn,my other three boys love learning.He likes to read but does'nt think much about what he has read,again cannot apply to everyday life.

 

I love that special school use alot of visual and interactive, rather than write an essay kind of thing,this is more what Sam needs. The unit has this too but they balance it more with a bit of both.The way I see it is special school is more tailored to the child with encouraging the good and helping with positive re inforcement to change the not so good,it may take longer to get the end result but looks less detrimental.The ASD unit seems to have one goal,and they make it clear,to re-intergrate into mainstream,so its almost like moulding a child so that they will conform.Nothing wrong with it really but not sure now if I want to "lose" my Sam just so he can be like everyone else.

 

Thank you so much Bid <'> That is very interesting to know.He has so much potential but I do feel he has a very long way to go,if too much pressure is on him now I dont see how it will help him later on.I do think he will get there eventually but needs time.

[oxgirl]

I'm looking at this having come out at the other end, my lad is 17 and left school last year. He was in an ASD unit attached to a mainstream school. He is very intelligent, but, as you say, applying intelligence is often the challenge. The five years he was at school he didn't have an ounce of help with social skills, he had not a single friend during his whole time there. They took him into mainstream lessons and brought him out again. He achieved three 'A' grade GCSEs in science but he is still friendless and lacks independence and hasn't moved on with social skills at all, his 'A's don't mean jot, because he hasn't the confidence or skills to use them.

 

So, looking back, I would advise anyone in a position like we were back then to concentrate on social skills and developing independence and learning to share and get on with people, etc. etc. At the end of the day, they have their whole lives to achieve academic qualifications. If they're interested, they can go to evening classes when they're 30 and do GCSEs or A levels or whatever they want, but I think it's so very vital to help them when their young with social skills and making friends before it's too late, as I feel sometimes it is for my lad now. Good luck with your decision, but I know what I'd do if I could do it all over again and I bitterly regret that fact that I can't, I would never have sent him there if I knew then what I do now.

 

~ Mel ~

[justine1]

I'm looking at this having come out at the other end, my lad is 17 and left school last year. He was in an ASD unit attached to a mainstream school. He is very intelligent, but, as you say, applying intelligence is often the challenge. The five years he was at school he didn't have an ounce of help with social skills, he had not a single friend during his whole time there. They took him into mainstream lessons and brought him out again. He achieved three 'A' grade GCSEs in science but he is still friendless and lacks independence and hasn't moved on with social skills at all, his 'A's don't mean jot, because he hasn't the confidence or skills to use them.

 

So, looking back, I would advise anyone in a position like we were back then to concentrate on social skills and developing independence and learning to share and get on with people, etc. etc. At the end of the day, they have their whole lives to achieve academic qualifications. If they're interested, they can go to evening classes when they're 30 and do GCSEs or A levels or whatever they want, but I think it's so very vital to help them when their young with social skills and making friends before it's too late, as I feel sometimes it is for my lad now. Good luck with your decision, but I know what I'd do if I could do it all over again and I bitterly regret that fact that I can't, I would never have sent him there if I knew then what I do now.

 

~ Mel ~

WOW Thank you soooooooooooo much Exactly what I meant!! I had social problems when I was young and battle now with friendships,I dont have ASD but I know where my weaknesses are and work hard on that.For Sam he needs to be taught how to do this.I can't imagine working in any career or having a life without knowing basic interaction with other humans!

 

When I was at the special school I said he is good at making friends but he cant keep them,the head said thats exactly what they work on.As well as other life skills.

 

I feel the same what good is an arm's length of qualification if he will be sitting at home too afraid of the big wide world! The children at the school I saw today are so friendly it appears they have been taught social skills.One of the boys was not looking at the head teacher when he greeted him so they kept encouraging him and he did it in the end,in a mainstream unit they likely to have removed a privelage for him to do this.

 

Thanks again everyone All I can do now is what for the first week of march and take him to see the unit,if he likes it then I can start to stress over what is the best option and if he doesnt like it then he can go to the special school

[RainbowsButterflies]

I think I would opt for the special school. Life skills and social skills are so much more important - I think I would have benefitted from help with these as a child! I would imagine that there would always be the possibility of him moving back to an ASD unit if he can learn these skills and isn't being stretched enough academically, but as oxgirl says, there is nothing to say that if you don't get your A Levels by the time you're 18 there's no hope!

 

Good luck x

[justine1]

I think I would opt for the special school. Life skills and social skills are so much more important - I think I would have benefitted from help with these as a child! I would imagine that there would always be the possibility of him moving back to an ASD unit if he can learn these skills and isn't being stretched enough academically, but as oxgirl says, there is nothing to say that if you don't get your A Levels by the time you're 18 there's no hope!

 

Good luck x

Thank you <'> Absoultley,I am nearly 28 and only started studying towards a career two years ago,because I had kids early.So definatley he can study at any age.I guess sometimes I want him to conform and be as "normal" as possible but then looking at him realistically I dont think its possible.

 

My other problem is I sooooooooooo dont want him changing schools,he has been out of school for so long because I want to make the right choice.He has been to four different schools(well changed schools 5 times,next will be six times!)and he is only 7 yrs old! Not what I want.I need to try and make the right choice now and hope he will stay there until year6.

 

The other positive is its resi too so he may stay for some days in a week to give me a little respite,which I dont get right now.

[Lynden]

I'd be inclined to opt for special school also but like Mumble said you have to carefully consider what he'd gain from both schools and take it from there. My little man is in an SLD school, where 70% of the children are autistic and it's fantastic, I really cannot praise them enough and he's thriving there. He is still on P levels, but he's approaching NC levels on a fair few of his subjects but I want to keep him in that school for as long as possible as I know that he is able to access the learning because of the environment he is in and were he moved somewhere else it would probably change - we see this on a daily basis when we try and take him to new / busy places. I just feel at the age they are at (he is 7) that the social and life skills are far more important than the academics.

 

What do they schools say? I know that my sons school would be completely honest if they felt it wasn't the right place for him anymore and he needed to move onto a different setting.

 

I'll be gutted when he leaves there - I want them to open a high school too and that's the feeling of most parents whose children have ever attended it We can dream

 

Lynne

Edited February 10, 2011 by Lynden

[justine1]

I'd be inclined to opt for special school also but like Mumble said you have to carefully consider what he'd gain from both schools and take it from there. My little man is in an SLD school, where 70% of the children are autistic and it's fantastic, I really cannot praise them enough and he's thriving there. He is still on P levels, but he's approaching NC levels on a fair few of his subjects but I want to keep him in that school for as long as possible as I know that he is able to access the learning because of the environment he is in and were he moved somewhere else it would probably change - we see this on a daily basis when we try and take him to new / busy places. I just feel at the age they are at (he is 7) that the social and life skills are far more important than the academics.

 

What do they schools say? I know that my sons school would be completely honest if they felt it wasn't the right place for him anymore and he needed to move onto a different setting.

 

I'll be gutted when he leaves there - I want them to open a high school too and that's the feeling of most parents whose children have ever attended it We can dream

 

Lynne

Thank you Lynne <'> I feel the same way now.Both schools say they are suitable for Sam.I saw higher functioning children in the special school so I can see it would be suitable.The lady at the unit has said units are better as its almost a happy medium,I like that idea too and that was the reason he was at a unit before we moved.

 

I know come March I will be very stressed over the decision and hope I make the right one Only time will tell I guess.

[JsMum]

From your posts I feel what stands out is the pair of you really like the special school, and I personally wouldnt defo pay too much attention to the attainment levels, I bet you one thing the other childrens attainments will be what we call spiky profile.

 

So have strengths in some subjects and impairments in others and one school actually set Js much higher than it really was, so there is a possibility that his attainment levels may differ if he where to be tested at this new special school.

 

If they can meet your sons individual level that will be the most important so I would check that his work is differentiated to his needs.

 

I would look at requesting the special school do some assessments to assertain his ability level, Im sure the special school would want to assess him before a placement was excepted.

 

From the posts I would what is clear is though this is only until he is 11 that still gives Sam 4 yrs of potentially really great support in his education.

 

 

Surely that four years of happy education placement where Sam is happy is worth that even if it means a change and he wont be the only child having to move, so find out where do the children move onto? as other parents are going to be in a similair position to you when thier children have to move to secondary.

 

I personally would go for this special school that Sam has partipated, interacted in already because for me thats a fab start to a school placement, the kitchen sounds brillaint, would love to see more buildings and fittings be at child height.

 

I would defo take Sam again, talk to the Headteacher about your concerns about your Sams ability and request a further assessment on his attainment levels, it could be this special school is actually spot on for Sam, and I would say Sam has choosen his school alreadyx what about a trial run, for a week or so to see if he becomes bored in the lessons.x

 

JsMumx

Edited February 13, 2011 by JsMum

[justine1]

From your posts I feel what stands out is the pair of you really like the special school, and I personally wouldnt defo pay too much attention to the attainment levels, I bet you one thing the other childrens attainments will be what we call spiky profile.

 

So have strengths in some subjects and impairments in others and one school actually set Js much higher than it really was, so there is a possibility that his attainment levels may differ if he where to be tested at this new special school.

 

If they can meet your sons individual level that will be the most important so I would check that his work is differentiated to his needs.

 

I would look at requesting the special school do some assessments to assertain his ability level, Im sure the special school would want to assess him before a placement was excepted.

 

From the posts I would what is clear is though this is only until he is 11 that still gives Sam 4 yrs of potentially really great support in his education.

 

 

Surely that four years of happy education placement where Sam is happy is worth that even if it means a change and he wont be the only child having to move, so find out where do the children move onto? as other parents are going to be in a similair position to you when thier children have to move to secondary.

 

I personally would go for this special school that Sam has partipated, interacted in already because for me thats a fab start to a school placement, the kitchen sounds brillaint, would love to see more buildings and fittings be at child height.

 

I would defo take Sam again, talk to the Headteacher about your concerns about your Sams ability and request a further assessment on his attainment levels, it could be this special school is actually spot on for Sam, and I would say Sam has choosen his school alreadyx what about a trial run, for a week or so to see if he becomes bored in the lessons.x

 

JsMumx

Thanks Js mum <'> I agree with that.I want him to see the other school first,on the 3rd March, and then decide.I did ask the headteacher at the special school about his academic abilities and he said it would be something I would have to consider but he said his school has everything to meet his needs.Its a tough one but trying not to think about it right now,will concentrate more in two weeks time <'>

[Sally44]

I think that your question is one that many parents on this forum think about time and time again.

You do need to know what your child's cognitive abilities are. But it can be very hard to get an LEA EP to assess that. I tried for years to no avail.

I've recently had one done independently and have been told my son is "average", but that he has SpLD that will impact on his ability to learn (ie. dyslexia/dyscalculia, problems with short term/working memory).

 

I had to make a decision 3 years ago. The Autism Outreach Teacher said he needed a dedicated environment (autism unit) because she said he would not cope mainstream. But the children in the unit were non-verbal and were functioning academically at a much lower level. I was told I had to choose between "education" and "socialisation". But actually you should not have to make that decision. The CoP states that the child should have a suitable eductional environment and that every need should be identified.

But what you find time and time again is that LEAs do not have those types of school. They have mainstream, or mainstream with autism units, or they have moderate learning difficulties schools.

 

My son has been mainstream (called enhanced resource because of the extra funding the schools gets for a higher staff:pupil ratio). And my son is now out of school and refusing to attend due to severe anxiety and emotional issues that have seriously affected his self esteem.

 

The only other alternatives ie. a similar peer group with a similar cognitive ability is in the independent school sector. And that means an educational tribunal and independent reports. If you go down that road then the best time to do that is in transfer year.

 

I also agree with what Mumble has said. And I know many parents of 'able' children on the spectrum that have placed their child in a MLD school because they felt that if the environment was not right their children would not learn at all.

 

You need to ask this school about the academic ability of your child and "what if" he is years ahead of his peers. What is the secondary schooling options open to your child if they attend this primary school etc.

 

If you have concerns about the levels you have been told he was at by his previous school, then it is worth getting it checked out. You might find it easier to go to someone like Dyslexia Action or the Dyslexia Association and ask them for a local group contact number and speak to them about local Eductional Psychologists that have experience of assessing children on the spectrum who also have specific learning difficulties.

 

I know myself that it is very difficult to take your child for assessments and know that you may have to acknowledge that they are below average cognitive ability. For many children that is the case, and placing them makes it much easier knowing their capabilities. Personally, I feel it is much harder to place the 'capable' ASD child because anxiety, social interaction difficulties, emotional regulation difficulties, self esteem, bullying etc are all things that our children deal with in a more mainstream environment.

 

But you may find that knowing what his difficulties are helps you to make that decision about placement. And you may agree to place him at a special school for his primary years, and then feel it is worth seeking an independent placement for secondary school.

 

I have had some very bad experiences of LEA/NHS professionals. But I have just had an absolutely brilliant, spot on report from CAHMS - and after all the posts I had read about CAHMS I was very dubious about them. But they have said my sons difficulties lie with the serious lack of appropriate educational support and approaches and lack of OT intervention and that his deterioration is due to that and not a mental illness. I could have kissed her.

 

Remember that any decision you make does not have to be written in stone. Like all parents, you make the best choice you can at the given time with the information you have. And that can change.