maths difficulties

[madme]

Hi. Im intersted in this area. my son has a dx of adhd dyspraxi aspergers and a specific learning difficulty in maths. My son is 10. He just about knows number bonds but has a high reading age and Iq. Following further tests today he is clearly years behind and still cannot master basic subtraction. Im interested in hearing from anyone with a child with similar difficulties. Please describe the assesments and help provided and with what outcome.

[Malika]

Hi

 

H has similar pbs in maths he is 8 with ASD, but getting much better his teacher in year 2 just explain that: what she could see is, he had problem grasping on new concept for 3 reasons 1) he is very distractable. 2) he has pragmatic language difficuties. 3)The way he understand and see maths is different than us so the way he is explained doe not neccessarely fit him.

She implemented few strategies getting him support 1 hour a week within a small group where every new concepts was explain to H. making sure: 1) he was paying attention 2)all the language involve was short sentences and straightforward explainations and intructions, 3)repeating the explaination in different ways untill he had manage to understand the concept.

Usually once H understand the concept work becomes easy for him and he is getting confident.

At home I kept working with H with visual clues and concrete object to manipulate, but this year I do not need to anymore he is just OK with numbers.

 

Hope you will find some strategies to help your son just bear in mind that sometimes it is not a math problem but a language one (pragmatic) or lack of visual and concrete clue to help him grasp the full math concept.

 

Take care. <'> <'>

 

Malika.

[madme]

Thanks Malika. He does have the language difficulties but he has a real difficulty with maths generally and at 10 still cant really do subtraction let alone learn his timetables! Its all about his poor working memory and very poor recall of numbers going backwards. Apparrently its not dyscalculia so there is some hope but really needs intensive help which I will have to fight to get. Thanks

[ceecee]

Hi

I cant help you in that I dont have a child with As but I can tell you about me as a child.I would suspedt I have As.I was appalling at maths could not grasp it whatsoever.But my reading was excellent probably easy one of the best in the class.i read and read I loved it.I also wrote and wrote, which i loved.Not sure if I am any good at it but often had my essays read out to the class so couldn't have been too bad.

 

Trouble is because I had an excellent memory I was good at anything I had to recall loads of factf for e.g. history, religious education etc etc.This then put me in the top set overall but left me no support for things like maths.

 

Hope you get something sorted out for your son.

[nikrix]

Hi my daughter 9 ASD has language problems and is the lowest group in her year. My main concerns over recent months has been her maths. I would not of known she had problem with this, but she had some homework a few months ago and she had not got a clue with number bonds. Figures are just a no go area. I went to the school to bring up my concerns and her math teacher said that he had been very worried about her but in the last week she seemed to be more settle in class. Nice of him to contact me about the concerns. He went on to say that they had been measuring, which she is fine with. She has had no assesment for her maths and she should have help at all times, which has not been happening.

 

So I have no advice, just the same problem. I would be interested on what we can do to help. The school have provided me with some visual aides, so working on that at the moment.

 

Nikrix

Edited December 1, 2005 by nikrix

[Ian Jordan]

A trick that will often work

 

cover one eye up and try basic maths - try both left and right eyes (4 out of 5 times it is helped by covering left eye)

[TuX]

I have nearly all the same difficulties-ADHD,AS and maths LD,and also struggle attempting the basics,I use visual aids for maths during the lesson at college as it's the only way that can help me,if he has a problem with not being able to see maths in his mind,like myself,

then perhaps using an abacus(might have the name wrong) could help.

ADHD affects working (short term) memory,that could also be a factor.

[Brook]

Hi,

 

My son is seven yrs old, ASD.

 

He too is an excellent reader, but his numeracy is very poor, he also has a receptive

language delay. Since home edding him I have really seen just how difficult he finds

numeracy. We use lots of visual items to help, but even with this he finds it hard.

Soon after taking him out of school I realised that he could not 'count on', we used two threads and beads, we counted the first one, then I used the words 'carry on counting' instead of 'count on', he then did it.

 

I was speaking to the speech therapist and saying about all the things that he finds difficult with numeracy, she then got out a booklet, we read through it and were both quite amazed that everything I had said was in this booklet.

 

I thought I would post a link so anyone else interested could read it:

 

The National Numeracy Strategy

Guidance to support pupils with autistic spectrum disorders.

 

http://www.standards.dfes.gov.uk/primary/p...utism051101.pdf

 

HTH

 

Brook

[woodri]

If you want to consider trying with a computer solution go to http://www.greyolltwit.com/ . The software is written by a father of an ADHD boy and is free. Very committed Dad, his stuff may be useful and I hope worth a try.

[madme]

Thanks for the replies. I have read the national stragey doc with interest and will give it to his teacher. Woodri I have used that programme before. He got bored. It used to be on adders.org. We have just purchased maths rescue which he seems to like. To Nikrix try lookung at emmerson house and looking up books and work by chinn, yeo and butterworth. Good luck. im just starting out and im sure that with the right method ill ghet ther. Ian Jordan - interesting we[ll try. Something I cant understand and one day hopefully ill get to is why can he read mechanically so well which must need working memory

[madme]

Ian Jordan. Thought I recognised the name but not sure where. Just looked you up. My son has strabismus corrected by op and has been under orthoptics and opthalmolgy since 9 months. we tried the overlay with limited success. I have in my professional capacity come across cases post closed head inuury with seemingly weird symptoms which were explained eventually as vestibular dysfunction. eg lady who couldnt read black on white magazine print without feeling sick. There are a few others but I have alawys wonddered how my sons difficulties fitted in as he finds that things move before his eyes. Ive raised it several times and hospital is dismissive and v anti overlays. Is there any research re this area?

[Ian Jordan]

lots of research although difficult for layman to piece them together.

Coloured overlays and simple coloured lenses are nothing like good enough in ASD, old fashioned methods are in my opinion totally inadequate. The things we can do now using visual stimulus would astound people. We are a long long way further than that seen on "My family and Autism". Sadly I hardly ever get asked to speak by autistic conferences, the effects we can get are so dramatic that all people connected with ASD should be aware of what is possible and quite frankly we are so far ahead of what is "current practice" I consider much of what is told to parents to be obsolete.

Much of symptoms you have described in your child we routinely treat - but you have to remember that the majority of "optical professionals" have little knowledge even if they are using colour. Good news is that I have just written a 20 week post grad diploma course which will available next year for doctors, optical people, psychologists etc.

 

The theory of covering an eye is related to the position of the angular gyrus and how input is interpreted on each side of the brain. In around 50% of cases significant (and immediate) changes to the mathematics results by reducing attentional stress (essentially too much unwanted info going to the brain) and to inappropriate positions. There are better ways of addressing this problem visually but real expertise is needed.

Sorry a bit vague but this subject is enormous!

[littlenemo]

http://www.orthoscopics.com

 

this is the link to the clinics who base their eyetests and prescriptions on Ian Jordan's work.

 

bit expensive but I wish there was a clinic closer to us

 

Com wears purple lenses which really help 3d vision which helps a lot but he has plain glasses for reading with prisms to help his convergence but I don't think they're very effective.

 

Com is very, very good at Maths but there are areas he finds surprisingly difficult, at 13, doing AS level, he still can't remember his tables (and i really worked hard on these with him) and he can't remember formulae either which is more of a problem now although he has the advantage of being able to create his own formulae that work just as well - this is not a conceptual problem but a sequencing issue.

 

Zemanski

[ray]

Alex, 17, aspergers, really struggles with the most basic of maths. The odd thing is when he was 5 or 6 he wasn't too bad - he was doing long division etc. He's just got progressively worse over the years. If you ask him what 3 + 4 is he'll glaze over and throw a few random numbers out. He really can't see the point either given that calculators exist. Fair point. Always been good at reading though, at right std for age or just ahead.

[Canopus]

Hi. Im intersted in this area. my son has a dx of adhd dyspraxi aspergers and a specific learning difficulty in maths. My son is 10. He just about knows number bonds but has a high reading age and Iq. Following further tests today he is clearly years behind and still cannot master basic subtraction. Im interested in hearing from anyone with a child with similar difficulties. Please describe the assesments and help provided and with what outcome.

 

How good is he when it comes to things like geometry and algebra? There are many people who struggle with numbers but excel in other areas of maths. I know someone who failed their CSE and now has A grades at A Level in maths and further maths.

 

I got into topics like trigonometry and algebra when I was about 7 because I wasn't too hot on number work. I still don't know how to multiply two 2 figure integers, but can do things like solve differential equations. I had difficulty with my times tables at the age of 8 but had no problem solving quadratics and knew the formulae to find areas and volumes of shapes.

 

I have a feeling that primary schools push number work very far to the detriment of other maths topics. Irritatingly the government has renamed maths numeracy.

[madme]

canopus - hes never done alegbra. Perhaps ill try it with him. Thanks for all your replies.

[littlenemo]

one of the problems for ASC kids is that the curriculum is designed for NT learning. Most NT kids need to understand number and the basic operations pretty well and learn them in a concrete way before they can handle the bigger concepts involved in algebra and trig while a few ASC kids can almost by-pass number and focus on the abstract from a very early age.

It is very difficult to cater for these few ASC kids, especially as the problem is not easy to spot - if you don't do abstract maths you can't tell whether or not a child can do it but if you try to give primary kids (certainly at the age of 8) abstract maths almost all of them would flounder.

 

I agree it would be good if individual learning styles were catered for for every child but this one is not really feasible in an ordinary classroom and there really are very few children who can do this.

 

However, in the case of a child being behind in their maths because they find the basic concepts difficult to grasp they should be looking at learning styles and finding ways to improve understanding and perhaps they should at this point check to see if more abstract maths is easier for a child but generally it doesn't occur to people and it is still very important to try to get basic number skills across because those skills are life skills - your friend must have had at least those basic skills to be entered for CSE even if he didn't pass - and they are the skills he will be using when he goes shopping, manages his bank account, checks his wage slip (if he's working), fills in his tax return or benefit forms, pays his bus fare ......................

 

Sorry, but these skills are very important and I do think they should be the main area of concentration for Maths teaching in schools up to a certain level of competency (nothing to stop them teaching some abstract stuff alongside though)

 

Zemanski

[Canopus]

The CSE was designed around "everyday" maths and was mainly arithmetic and money calculations. The O Level covered more advanced topics such as algebra and trigonometry. My friend learnt about many of the O Level topics in his own time during Y9 for enjoyment and this was in the 1960s. He wanted to do the O Level because he felt more confident with algebra and angles than arithmetic. He also made claims that in 10 years time (late 1970s) electronic calculators would be commonplace and things like long division will become obsolete skills. His maths teacher wasn't amused with his attitude and wrote a strongly worded letter to his parents saying that it was ridiculous that he wanted to do the O Level when he couldn't even handle CSE material.

 

The way the education system - and much of society - works is that if you can't master the so called basic skills then you shouldn't be allowed to participate in more advanced topics. There are kids in Y10 and Y11 that are still covering primary school maths and have never been allowed to study algebra because the school wouldn't let them until they mastered numeracy. There are conflicts of interest in society whether schools should focus more on teaching stuff used in everyday life or whether they should teach advanced academic material.

[madme]

seems to have sparked an interesting debate. I feel that my son does have to master basic maths if he is ever to cope independently. But i agree that sometimes its worth looking at more advanced subjects. My son is currently albeit sowly reading a gcse level chemistry book in basic langauge which we thought would help his confidence. He has such poor self esteem as his sister at 4 is rapidly catching up in maths and he is clearly frustrated by his difficulties. Thats the problem with him being so self aware. Anyone any views about the yeo and butterworth books and methods re teaching maths?