Perceived bullying

[OPooh]

My ds is saying everyone hates him.

That they kick his shoes off him and kick them around the playground.

They call him willyboy, says he wears pants and go "ugh" when they find out things are his - which they previously liked.

 

No that in itself broke my little heart...BUT....everyone says it's not happening. He has a MDSA as a buddy at lunchtime and she says that the kids play with him. I went and spoke to his teacher and she said she knows nothing about it (my ds would have told someone if someone was doing something wrong especially to him). I even gone as far as getting parents to ask their kids now.

 

Does anyone have any experience or advice on this matter?

 

We're quiet concerned because he's not good at stories and making things up that sound truthful so are wondering where this is coming from. When he lies (even to cover his own back) he does it so badly you know it's not the truth.

 

Am very concerned. Been told he's borderline asd (aspergers).

 

Thanks.

[nikrix]

My daughter finds it hard to tell a lie but she also finds it hard to explain herself. If it was my daughter telling me this i would done what you have done and asked other if they had seen anything. I don't think your child is making this up, something must of happened with his shoes being kicked about and this must of upset him.

Sorry I don't know what the answer is, maybe have a chat and see if you can find out a bit more from him.

Hope you get to the bottom of it.

 

Nikrix

[OPooh]

Thanks - but he just insists this bullying is occuring and everyone else is saying it isn't. It's most odd.

[Brook]

Hi Opooh, <'>

 

I know just how horrible this is.

When my ASD son (age 7) was in school, his coat was found in the toilets on a fair few occasions and whilst at PE someone put his socks in the bin, I am pretty sure that it was kids who new that my son had to have everything just so and in its place otherwise he would start screaming. When I saw the head about this, the

response was "maybe it's because his peg is near the toilets, maybe we could move it" which I agreed to, although I knew that in itself would upset him. We de-registered him soon after, so never did find out the outcome, but I have a very strong gut feeling that I was right.

 

My son also said that he didn't like the children anymore, when I asked 'why' he said that 'they kick my legs and touch my jumper', I got him to show me how they did it, he also shouted as he did the actions, every time I mentioned this at school I got the 'oh no, all the children are very nice

and friendly', my son would not have said these things if they hadn't happened. I know that some things may be percieved wrongly by our kids, but I would listen to 'how' my son described things and the words he used, this gave me a pretty good idea as to what was going on.

 

I too started to ask parents that I was friendly with if they could quiz their kids and let me know if anything came to light, once I was on the phone to another parent of a little girl in my sons class, his lunchbox had been broken and he was soooo upset, he told me the kids name who did it, so I was asking this other mum if her daughter was there, the girl said that she heard my son screaming in the lunch hall, but did not see who had broke it because she was on a different table, she then went on to say that the kids do things because they know my son will scream, her mum asked 'why' they make him scream, her reply was 'because it makes everyone laugh when he screams', I cannot begin to describe the size of the lump in my throat and could bearly carry on talking.

I went into the school and told them that my son had said a boys name, their response was 'oh no, not little xxxxxx he would never do that. probably because little xxxxxx was from a good background and they didn't want to upset the applecart.

 

I can honestly say that the school sorted nothing, (and bear in mind my husband also worked there!).

 

Looking back, I am very cross with myself for letting them get away with lots of things, and most of all patronising me and me falling for it! NEVER AGAIN.

 

I would listen very carefully to what your son tells you, and if you feel that it is not 'percieved' incidents,

then go straight into the school, calmly and as polite as poss, but dont give up, might also be an idea to start keeping a diary of dates and incidents and write it exactly how he says it.

 

Take care <'>

 

Brook

Edited January 20, 2006 by Brook

[Kathryn]

I too started to ask parents that I was friendly with if they could quiz their kids and let me know if anything came to light, once I was on the phone to another parent of a little girl in my sons class, his lunchbox had been broken and he was soooo upset, he told me the kids name who did it, so I was asking this other mum if her daughter was there, the girl said that she heard my son screaming in the lunch hall, but did not see who had broke it because she was on a different table, she then went on to say that the kids do things because they know my son will scream, her mum asked 'why' they make him scream, her reply was 'because it makes everyone laugh when he screams', I cannot begin to describe the size of the lump in my throat and could bearly carry on talking.

Brook, children used to wind my daughter up all the way through her school career to get this kind of "interesting" reaction too. It went on right up until her very last day at school.

 

I would listen very carefully to what your son tells you, and if you feel that it is not 'percieved' incidents,

then go straight into the school, calmly and as polite as poss, but dont give up, might also be an idea to start keeping a diary of dates and incidents and write it exactly how he says it.

 

I'd agree with this completely. Go with your gut feeling OPooh - you aren't overreacting.

[Tez]

I'm another one who for years was told my son wasn't bullied, he just makes it up, until the circumstances became so bad that I involved the police. Even then the school tried to redefine bullying so that they could maintain that many incidents were perception rather than reality.

 

Many schools now have cctv fitted in areas such as playgrounds, it may be worth asking if your son's school has and seeing if they have viewed any footage. On at least one occasion when I reported some bullying A's DH did this (amazing what happens after police intervention) and, whilst it didn't show the actual bullying occured, it did show A's side of events leading up to it as being true and the bully's as being untrue.

 

I think most of us know our own children and I agree with everyone else, trust your instinct and make sure that these incidents are recorded in writing, as well as keeping a diary I would either send the school an email every time your son tells you about an incident (just something low key such as, I thought you should be aware that x told me y) or note it in his home-school book and copy it before sending into school, you may not be able to prove anything at this stage but it might come in useful later.

[helenl53]

Go with your child

 

My son used to get bullied and I was told that it was 'accidental bumping' and that he was making more out of it.

 

If it was bullying that they could not hide under the carpet - then the note in his book would read "J agrees that the punch/kick/bullying activity was not done in a horrible manner" - so it must have ben done in a 'nice' manner.

 

Write to the school so that you have a record of concerns being raised.

 

Unless staff are watching your child constantly, how can they possibly know that bullying is not going on. Also, in the cacophany that is kids in the playground, how can they possibly hear what children are saying to your little lad.

 

Don't ignore it.

 

Best wishes

 

HelenL

[OPooh]

Well it doesn't help that my son cannot explain situations either.

 

He told me that this lad (T) strangled him at school. But when I went to the school I was told that my ds had attacked T and knocked his glasses on the floor.

 

Then T's mother came to tell me to "have a word with my ds"

She admits that her son said he was calling my son a loser during the game of football but then my ds attacked him. Knew nothing about the strangling. Well that alone sounds like they've wound him up and wondering why then he attacks him - but the school didn't mention any of this - and neither did my ds.

 

I keep going up - and they don't think he "needs" the home-school link book anymore

If they're saying it's not happening I can't see how the footage will be shown.

 

They did say they are going to help him with his social skills and organise more structured and supervised events at break....it just concerns me more that this may only be happening in his head I guess.

 

Thanks for the help and advice.

[loulou]

Hi Opooh,

 

This sort of thing used to happen to Kai when he was at mainstream school. When i spoke to the Head about it, she said, "I think it's the other way around Miss ******!".

 

Kai used to come home covered in mud (literally) and when i asked him, he'd say so-and-so pushed him over in the mud. He also used to have bruises which were from so-and-so kicking him. The problem with Kai is that he would never tell a teacher what had happened. He often retaliated by pushing the kid back. Then the kid would go off crying to the teacher that Kai had pushed him. Kai would never lie, so when the teacher asked him if he did it, he'd say yes. He would never say that he was pushed/hit/kicked first.

 

Anyway, I decided to do a bit of spying. I went to the school at playtime and hid behind a tree in the street ! I witnessed these little "darlings" taunting Kai and really winding him up. The dinner ladies were standing around gossiping, not watching the children . I had my eveidence.

 

Thankfully he no longer goes there.

 

Loulou x

[Tez]

I think the issue here is what is happening. It may be bullying, it may be misinterpretation of events or it may be something else. The fact is, no-one really knows and in the meantime you're worrying and your son has a problem that no-one fully understands.

 

I would put my concerns in writing to the school (keep it low key and nice, as you say you don't know all the story, ask for their help and keep a copy on file) ask them to investigate the situation in order to try to get to the bottom of exactly what is happening and report back to you with their findings, and how they propose dealing with the things. It doesn't matter if he isn't being bullied, there is obviously some problem here that isn't being addressed. My son's school eventually investigated every incident that we reported but it took years for us to get to this stage.

 

Putting things in writing does tend to focus their attention, they can't brush it off so easily, and if matters aren't resolved or escalate you have your evidence.

Edited January 21, 2006 by Tez

[lindy-lou]

joy,my nephew used to come home and tell us things like his headteacher had locked him in a cupboard and hit him with a shoe!!also my sister took him to school one day and the teachers all came to ask her if she was ok after her roof had blown off none of it true,and he still makes up the most elaborate sories under the sun,but on the other hand he has been bullied mercilessly so fishing out the truth from the made up stuff can be quite difficult.

[phasmid]

The trouble is what NT kids see as 'normal' rough and tumble play is very difficult for our kids to understand. Too often they respond in kind and don't realise they are going to far, then they get into grief for trying to join in. On the other hand children are very quick to suss out the 'victims', one's that find it hard to relate what has occured (such as our kids) are perfect for them.

 

What SHOULD happen is an absolute awareness from staff of the very real threat of being bullied our children face at breaktimes. As soon as a dx is made or where there is a suspicion of an ASD then caution should be exercised. Staff on duty should be paying particular attention to them and making sure they are ok. There are all sorts of things that could, indeed should, be done to ensure their safety. ASD is a socio-communication disorder that makes it hard for them to understand a lot of breaktime activities let alone explain their part in any problems that do arise. A good, ASD aware, school should know this! Sadly it seems many don't.

[lindy-lou]

phas this is very true,the school my 2nd daughter attends and india will attend in september have been offered training from our specialist autistic teacher but they have declined the offer i am going in to see them on thursday after the teacher has bought me the information to ask why they are not taking this up and if neccasary i will hound the education authority about it because i know there are a fair few ASD kids at the school,i will also suggest that the playtime supervisors be allowed to attend the course,because like you say playtime is probably the most vulnerable time for our children.

[phasmid]

The thing schools need to acknowledge is the fact that stress from these times bleeds over into the classroom, both before and after the break. Take the threat of bullying seriously, address it rather than ignore it and it can be amazing how much difference it makes.

 

Why the school won't take the advice from the ASD team is beyond me. Crazy. I would suggest they look at a documnet called: dinner dinner, Batman. This was printed by Peterborough LEA and it rips lunchtimes to shreds and rebuilds them, bit by bit. Much of it can be applied to 'general' breaktimes too. It is available on-line (not sure of the www. but a quick google would find it). Trouble is I doubt they would take the time to do so.

 

I long for the day to arrive for schools to start being honest and say "We don't know, do you or, can you tell us who to ask/ where to look?" after all we say it to kids in class all the time "If you don't know, ask!" Well that cuts both ways!!

[lindy-lou]

i will have a look for it phas and take it with me,im determined that they will learn about ASD and do whats best for all the children at the school who are on the spectrum,after all they have just as much right to be educated properley according to their needs as NT children.AND i feel its more or just as important that their social needs are looked after than their academic ones to be honest,and i cant bear the thought of india being left to the wolves so to speak in the playground.

[phasmid]

It's a good size document - some 60 or so pages long. It is available to buy (my head just did after I recommneded it to her) via the web, but you can also print it off free - well cost of ink at least. Let me know what you think of it.

[OPooh]

The thing schools need to acknowledge is the fact that stress from these times bleeds over into the classroom, both before and after the break. Take the threat of bullying seriously, address it rather than ignore it and it can be amazing how much difference it makes.

 

This is exactly what his teacher said to the educational psychologist and they are trying to "do" things to help him - but yes it's all that he's not being bullied - and I'm finding it hard to digest when he's telling me and is so upset. I guess what I haven't said (sorry didn't think to until I read something) is that when his 2 year old brother jumps on him (playing) and rubbing his mouth against him - he feels that his brother is attacking and biting him, he's not and I have witnessed this. Sometimes he thinks his dad is trying to "kill him" and really gets scared - when he just messing about too.

 

I'm so confused - I guess I believe the kids aren't nice to him but not as bad as he is saying and I don't understand how to understand where he is coming from BUT also don't want to ignore it incase it is just bullying.

 

OMG do I sound confused?

 

Thanks again - it means a lot.

[phasmid]

It's a perception thing. Not being able to read the subtlties of social situations means that what we might see as 'normal' play is not seen that way by our children. As you say your own son doesn't see being kissed as being kissed just his brother 'mashing his face into his'. The problem is if the perceived bullying is not seen as that by the outside observer they don't react to it, but the 'victim' still feels they have been bullied. If you follow my point. The fact that the school don't see it as 'being bullied' is irrelevant as such because your son does. That fact that they are not always real 'he has been bullied situations' to them does not mean they aren't to him! If a situation is making him feel uncomfortable he simply hasn't got the social skills to be able to get up and walk away, that isn't his fault, its just him being him. In those cases the school have to see it, react to it and defuse it. It is no point saying otherwise as he cannot see it like that, therefore to him it IS being bullied, what he has to learn is the difference - but they have to help him to learn how.

 

I hope that makes some sense.

[OPooh]

Yes it does and the school are offering to help with that - guess I'm a little scared that it is happening the way he describes it though. Thanks that was very reassuring though.

[UltraMum]

I would suggest they look at a documnet called: dinner dinner, Batman. This was printed by Peterborough LEA and it rips lunchtimes to shreds and rebuilds them, bit by bit. Much of it can be applied to 'general' breaktimes too. It is available on-line (not sure of the www. but a quick google would find it).

 

Can be purchased from peterborough LEA for ?30 ... order form here

Couldn't find anywhere to download it from though ...

Edited January 21, 2006 by MotherEve

[UltraMum]

Hope you get to the bottom of it soon OPooh

[OPooh]

Thank you - at least they are acknowledging that he has asd now too.

[phasmid]

Well I have had a blooming good look for the link that used to be there to download it but it's gone. I cannot even find it on my pc. Whether you want to spend ?30 on a document aimed at schools rather than parents is up to you,

[OPooh]

Do I stand much chance of getting the school to purchase it?

 

I might see if they have it work (I work in asecondary school).

 

Thanks again.

[phasmid]

Well my head bought it and reckoned it was the best ?30 the school had spent in a long while.

[smallworld]

Erm, I've got it on my desktop

Is that any good to you ?

 

wac

[helenl53]

I have found the free download and I hope this is it

 

 

 

dinner dinner Batman

 

HelenL

[lindy-lou]

thanks helen,thats brill i couldnt find it.

[phasmid]

Thats the one!

 

I am now bookmarking it for future reference. I hope it is useful to people. Break times are a huge problem for our kids. Following the ideas in this document can really make a huge difference to how break times impact on things. It isn't just the break thats the problem, the time leading up to it can be stressful, imagine thinking all day your car won't start, there are no buses going your way and home is 10 miles away - thats what it must seem like when break time approaches and you simply don't fit in out there. Then you get the break and all the hassle that happens and some teachers STILL wonder why some kids cannot settle for the next lesson. Remnant and Wood have done a cracking job with this and, if applied properly, the things they suggest can really help - they're not a miracle cure, but they're a good start.

[OPooh]

Oh thank you....going to add it to mine too

[UltraMum]

Thanks - i've downloaded it in case it disappears again.

[OPooh]

Well hopefully I shall find out in less than an hour whether it is just his perception or not as one of the other mother's (who works with a lad with asperger's too) said she'd ask her ds if mine was being bullied....I do hope she did and got an answer one way or the other....don't know which I'd rather tbh

 

Wish us luck either way please.

[Brook]

Good luck

[phasmid]

Good luck!

[Jill]

The very best of luck OPooh.

 

Just as an aside - our company policy is that it is bullying if the person on the "receiving end" perceives it as bullying (that's an oversimplification of a VERY wordy policy, but that's it in a nut shell)

 

I think that's the problem tho some people can laugh and joke with you & it's funny, other people can laugh and joke with you and make you feel uncomfortable. It's all about the individual you are relating to, your feelings about them & their attitude to you. It's such a tenuous thing.

 

I do feel for you and your boy tho - bullying is really really horrible.

[darky]

whats the saying??? a joke is only funny when the person on the recieving end finds it that way?? this is all the problem our kids have in mainstream schools,break times, not enough supervision, not enough to do so what do the kids do? pick on each other. BUT it is ten times worse with our kids because they do not often ask for help when they need it!!

schools can be wrong, when my daughters school told me she was interacting well with her peers etc etc, still concerned i went up the school and watched her clearly NOT interacting with her peers. if they could lie about this, then what else were they lying about? opened a whole can of worms!! my advice, go up the school and watch your son at playtimes if you can. it sounds to me like your lad has been quite specific, i cant see how this can be percieved any other way. imho of course.

[OPooh]

Well I didn't get the opportunity to speak to the mother because I saw the senco and got her e-mail addy to send her the link to the dinner dinner batman....and then the mother's son and other kids were about and it just didn't seem fair on my son to bring it up in front of people.

 

He said they were doing stuff again today and that the dinner lady just told him to stop being silly and go and play. They weren't palying fairly and by the rules and so he tried to tell them this and he said they just called him names.

 

His lip was all sore (near bleeding) where he'd been sucking it - so I knew something had happened to upset him without him telling me

[Jill]

whats the saying??? a joke is only funny when the person on the recieving end finds it that way?? this is all the problem our kids have in mainstream schools,break times, not enough supervision, not enough to do so what do the kids do? pick on each other. BUT it is ten times worse with our kids because they do not often ask for help when they need it!!

schools can be wrong, when my daughters school told me she was interacting well with her peers etc etc, still concerned i went up the school and watched her clearly NOT interacting with her peers. if they could lie about this, then what else were they lying about? opened a whole can of worms!! my advice, go up the school and watch your son at playtimes if you can. it sounds to me like your lad has been quite specific, i cant see how this can be percieved any other way. imho of course.

 

 

Sorry Darky, I didn't mean to offend. I was just saying that sometimes a person can say something to me and I will find it offensive because I do not know them well enough for them to say what they said, whereas someone I know well could say it and I would probably find it funny.

 

I really didn't mean to upset anyone. I was bullied at school and it lead to me leaving school early. I know how devastating it is & it certainly changed my life and who I am. I would never intentionally underestimate the effects that bullying can have.

[OPooh]

He IS being bullied - I guess there's no real surprises there. Today found him with his books all over the floor. He said he was pushed and he dropped the books whereby they were kicked about

 

Went and saw the teacher - she's agreed to start the home-school link book again.

[Suze]

............I,m sorry <'>