Help - holiday in term time?

[sue1957]

After intimidatory remarks by the HT at the new parents evening, we got the LEA to confirm - in writing - the holiday in term time policy. On asking for holiday, the school didn't even ask for our reasons and refused to authorise any at all. When we queried this, quoting the LEA letter we had received, they told us in writing that if we went on the dates we wanted we would be reported to the educational social workers as we were taking 11 days (Friday to Friday flights).

 

Our complaint to the governing body was then discussed at school, and the HT refused to see us about an unrelated matter without the chair of governors being present. Our letter was then read out at a full governors meeting, and a vote of confidence made in the HT. As the complaints panel was at this meeting, after our written discussions with the LEA, the school had to find a complaints panel from another school. They got the complaints panel from the school they are a feeder to (and one my daughter starts at in September). The matter dragged on for weeks while they found the so called "impartial" panel, and we had to attend a meeting 2 days before going on holiday.

 

Even though we provided the complaints panel with written evidence of the LEA guidance we had received, and information downloaded from the Dfes website, and written proof that the governing body has lied about the handling of the complaint, the complaints panel has done a complete whitewash, just one of the things said is that they are "satisfied that Mr x acted properly and in response to directives issued by the LEA." (Different advice to what the LEA were giving parents at the same time ).

 

Having been on holiday, we are now expecting to be reported to the educational social worker as per the HTs original written threat. We are now exercising our right to appeal to the LEA for the original complaint, and are considering a separate complaint about the conduct of the governing body, both on this and other matters. Critical friendship is non existant, its a buddy system, and parents currently have no hope of getting anything improved, or a fair hearing if they dare to question any of the school's policies.

 

Sorry, rant over. Anyway can anyone tell me what their own schools/LEA's are enforcing about holidays in term times? I have downloaded information from the Dfes "Advice and guidance to schools and local authorities on managing pupil attendance" and Statutory instrument 1995 no 2089 the Education (Pupil Registration) regulations 1995 and I cant see that the LEA/school has the legal right to report us to the educational social worker.

 

It would help to know if this is now being brought in nationally, or if our LEA is trying it on. Is anyone else's LEA doing this for holiday in term time?

 

Any advice gratefully received!

 

Awkward squad parent.

[phasmid]

I will ask Mrs P to have aread of this when she returns. I am sure she will have one or two thougts on the subject!

[phasmid]

OK. First of all you have to realise that, as you state yourself, the LEA 'guidance' on holidays in term time is exactly that 'guidance'. The school, or rather the head teacher does not have to grant these days nor, if they refuse to sanction them do they have to give a reason for their refusal. They may report the matter to the EWO or the EWO may pick it up during the termly inspection of attendence figures anyway. However I wouldn't worry too much. We are talking 11 days un-authorised abscence (the school didn't sanction any part of the holiday don't forget) most EWO's have got better things to do then chase up 11 days worth of unsanctioned holidays. It isn't as if they don't know why the children were not there - and it is the ones they have no reason for that they ought to be concerned about.

 

As for the way the matter was handled. Well, the head, as I said, did not have to give a reason for refusal. Authorised abscences are granted at the discretion of the head and they have the right not to grant them. You did the right thing in appealing this, you had every right to do so.

 

This is where things are a bit unclear. You say that;

 

Our complaint to the governing body was then discussed at school

 

A few questions: Was the complaint addressed to the CoG? I am not sure by whom it was discussed, do you mean by members of staff? or someone/body else?

 

If this was a complaint direct to the CoG and it was discussed by anyone outside the confines of the governing body this is a serious breach of confidentiality. Correspondance between the CoG and parents is private and not for 'public' debate. That alone could be cause for a serious complaint.

 

Then we come to the matter of the letter being read out to the governing body and the 'vote' being taken. The CoG is quite within their rights to bring this matter to the governors attention. However if there was any chance that you would appeal the heads decision then the members of the appeals AND Hearings panels should not have been party to any part of this discussion, or the vote regarding the HT's action. Thats where they make a mess of things really. In the first instance you would appeal to the hearings panel, they would then make their decision on the facts presented to them. Should that go against you, as it did, the next step would see you take it to the LEA who would again be seeing this matter for the first time.

 

Mrs P says whilst not ilegal to assemble a hearings panel from outside the school but from within their feeder system it would not be considered to be 'best practice'. That would be to assemble a panel from outside the pyramid or cluster your school is in. That way there is far less chance of 'gossip' between governors on the bodies the hearings panel came from and your own school.

 

You could complian to the LEA about the way the matter was handled but they are quite likely to say that the granting, or not, of any days off for any reason are internal matters for the head to deal with in line with the guidance they and the DfES publish. Please remember that that it is something of an 'educational myth' that you are 'entitled' to take your child out of school for 10 days a year in the same way that 'parental choice' is actually the right to express a 'preference'.

 

Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear, I simply asked Mrs P what the position is as this is her area of expertise not mine. What I/we have said is simply taken from our collective knowledge of governorship and her knowledge of appeal procedures.

[sue1957]

Thanks very much Phasmid for your reply. I appreciate the time you have put into it. Our letter (which was written after the HT had ignored a letter from us) was addressed to the Clerk to the Governors who (and we genuinely didn't realise this at the time, although it shouldn't make any difference) is also the HTs secretary. We asked for a review of the school's interpretation of holiday policy, but unfortunately the HT appeared to take it as a personal attack, which it most definately wasn't. We had expected a complaints panel hearing, in private. What we got was the HT refusing to see us on an unrelated matter without the CofG present, because we had put a complaint in (CoG available at 8.30 in the morning or late on a Friday afternoon). Then when the HT was away the school did not want us to come in and discuss a bullying incident until the HT came back the following week. (We insisted it couldn't wait and saw the deputy). The staff obviously knew. It was a phone call from the vice chair about convening the complaints panel which alerted us to the fact it had been discussed at the full meeting. They had actually expected to convene a panel from people attending this meeting.... (which the school prospectus appears to allow). Things escalated from there.

 

Mm lots to think about. Thanks again for the info and advice.

[smallworld]

we've just had a standard letter from our infant school informing us that a request for holiday during term time must be made a least SIX weeks in advance !!!!

due to DOH's work commitments this is well nigh impossible, and I wouldn't take my youngest away during school holidays, too busy for him to cope with the huge numbers of kids in the pool etc..

GRRRRH !

Am I to deprive my child of a holiday ? NO !!

 

wac

[call me jaded]

I think schools have to inform the EWO for absences of 10 days or more.

 

Have you seen the school policy on Authorised Absences or whatever they call it? If they haven't followed policy to the letter, you can appeal on that technicality.

[Paula]

What a load of old tripe.

 

Its a bloomeing dictatership thats what i think.

 

My sister is taking her child outta school in term time for a holiday.Theyll only approve 10 days but due to flights itll have to be 12 days.They also say itll go reported.She said go on then sod yer.Maybe not the best thing to do but yer get fed up at haveing yer life arranged by buricrats.

 

 

 

Thing is shes taking the kids outta school coz its cheeper in term time.

 

 

The bloomieng govermant and authorities should adress the travel companies ect about why they hike up the cost in school holidays.This is what shouldnt be allowed.Its a scam.They should fine these rip of merchants and leave parents alone.

 

Edited January 30, 2006 by Paula

[sue1957]

I think schools have to inform the EWO for absences of 10 days or more.

 

Have you seen the school policy on Authorised Absences or whatever they call it? If they haven't followed policy to the letter, you can appeal on that technicality.

 

From the prospectus:

 

"Holidays in term time

 

At a recent headteachers meeting we have been issued with a new directive regarding school attendance. This directive clearly outlines the importance of children attending school and the impact on their learning when they are absent. It also notes the negative affect on the class when an absentee returns and has to ?catch up? as time for learning is taken from the other children in the class.

 

During this meeting it was clearly outlined that parents are only entitled to apply for authorised absence under ?exceptional? circumstances (no more than 10 per academic year). These exceptional circumstances would not normally include holidays taken in term time and all heads have been instructed not to sign ?holiday forms?. The directive from the DfES is that children should be at school, when school is open, absence from school adversely affects their learning.

 

The directive went on to state that schools should, where possible, enquire on the ?first day of absence?, if the absence is not reported directly to the school by the parents in case of child protection issues.

 

This now changes the way that we have been operating here at X as I have to follow the directive given to me by the LEA, in any case, it is hard to argue that children?s learning is not affected when they are absent from school.

 

What does this mean for you?

 

Normally no holiday forms will be authorised, as parents would have to give reasons in their application for why they are unable to take their holiday at appropriate times. ?Cost? and a ?once in a lifetime trip? would not be a justifiable reason.

 

If your practice is to take your child away from school for an annual holiday this will now be unauthorised and will count as such on their statistics (and also the overall school statistics). It has been suggested, in the press, that travel agents will, at sometime in the future, have to enquire whether children who should be in school have been given authorisation by the school.

 

Any longer absences without explanation i.e. more than 5 days will need to be referred to an Education Social Worker, who would follow up the referral with an appropriate response either a letter or home visit. They are able to issue a fixed penalty fine. Recently, it has been reported, a family in X were fined over ?600 by this method.

 

How this will operate here at X

No holiday forms will be approved unless under exceptional circumstances. Unexplained absences of 5 days or longer, will be reported to the Education Social Worker as per LEA guidelines.

 

I must stress that this is a directed change of policy, and I fully appreciate the effects it will cause. The changes are likely to continue to be tightened as the Government seeks to improve school attendance across the Country. Perversely, our school statistics are likely to show a worsening of our schools attendance."

 

I think they are mixing truancy and holiday together under holidays in term time. This doesn't match either the LEA leaflets or the Dfes website, but with a complaints panel batting for the LEA ......

[invent 10 things b4 breakfast]

...not forgetting that many of our ASD kids cannot cope with the hussle and bussle of holidaying in school holidays because of how busy it is and how they cannot cope with all the people and noise.

 

I always take my son out of school for holidays and quote exactly that as my reason!

[Elanor]

Phasmid is right, EWOs have got better things to do - let the HT report you!

 

At the same time, well done for being one of the awkward squad - bleeding dictatorships!

[call me jaded]

Grasping at straws...

 

It's in the Prospectus. Was your child already a pupil before the prospectus was updated. If so, how did they notify parents of the change in policy??

 

Failing that what are the 'exceptional circumstances'? Could be what invent says.

Edited January 30, 2006 by call me jaded

[phasmid]

...not forgetting that many of our ASD kids cannot cope with the hussle and bussle of holidaying in school holidays because of how busy it is and how they cannot cope with all the people and noise.

 

I always take my son out of school for holidays and quote exactly that as my reason!

 

 

I'd say that 'exceptional circumstances' could well cover a holiday taken 'in term time' for the very reason cited by 'invent...' Perhaps a covering letter to this effect from GP or specialist supporting this may help your case.

 

Of course you could just phone in and tell them your child is sick and send in a note to that effect upon return. How you'd explain the suntan or the tales of I was doing 'x, y or z' on their return I don't know. The school could ask for proof of a visit to the GP as well though.....(I am NOT suggesting you do this of course or that you'd get away with it).

 

Also, on a more and somewhat personal note, spare a thought for those of us working in your children's schools. How would it go down if the school suddenly shut for a week or so because we (the staff) decided to copy some parents and take a term time holiday? There are two sides to this and thats the one I live with, like it or not!

[Tez]

How would it go down if the school suddenly shut for a week or so because we (the staff) decided to copy some parents and take a term time holiday?

 

Well, I know our circumstances are somewhat exceptional because the LEA are educating A in the home but that is exactly what is happening to us. A only gets 5 hours tuition per week, this week it is reduced to 2 hours because the one tutor is on term time holiday, next week and the week after half term it is also reduced to 2 hours because another tutor is adding an extra 2 weeks to her half term. Do you think I could fine the LEA?

 

I think it is the hypocracy of the LEAs and government that get to me. We are told that regular attendance at school is essential if our children are to do well, missing lessons is going to result in poor examination results and as parents we will be punished if our children are absent without just cause. But when something goes wrong and the child can't go to school because of ill health, suddenly it is not so important for that child to have lessons, try getting your legal entitlement to home education after 15 days without complaining to the DfES. Are the LEAs suitably punished? I think not, it's all brushed under the carpet.

[phasmid]

Well MY answer to that would be that your LEA wouldn't have a leg to stand on with taking action against parents if they have given permission for this to happen! That would be UTTER hypocrisy.

[sue1957]

There is a strong rumour in our school that one of the staff is taking a week off in the summer term. I've read somewhere that Dfes don't count attendance from a date in May to when school finishes in July, so maybe that's got something to do with it. I wouldn't put anything past 'em. But I'm watching.

 

We went on holiday in January because it was less disruptive to our children's education than going later. Another thing that gets me is that the school organises trips each year - they can take our kids away on holidays in term time this year but we can't. My daughter's 4 day "educational trip" this year is an out and out holiday, and not cheap either. Complete hypocrisy. I put my views on a questionaire they sent out about the school trips, but they missed out my observations in their summary of the parents opinions. Strange that.

[invent 10 things b4 breakfast]

There is a strong rumour in our school that one of the staff is taking a week off in the summer term. I've read somewhere that Dfes don't count attendance from a date in May to when school finishes in July

 

I think there may be something in that because when I have received my sons end of year report it only goes up to a certain date because we usually take holiday at the end of June and the reports come out about then and our holiday is never counted in it.

 

However, this year they are changing it around and giving an end of year report in February Don't know how they can work that one out!

[sue1957]

I think there may be something in that because when I have received my sons end of year report it only goes up to a certain date because we usually take holiday at the end of June and the reports come out about then and our holiday is never counted in it.

 

 

http://www.dfes.gov.uk/schoolattendance/up...NCE%20v1.51.doc

 

Found something about it on this document. Registration codes F, G and H. The Dfes definitions of the codes for authorised family holiday and unauthorised holiday make interesting reading. The school wouldn't even consider it, and certainly didn't invite us into school to discuss it, just told us if we took it we would be reported.

 

But the additional useful information bit suggests that June and July aren't included in the survey figures (anyone know why not?). So presumably if I take my children out of school in June/July the school's performance tables will look better than if I take them out in January? Not that I'm being cynical but perhaps thats what they mean by the "time of year proposed for the trip"

Edited February 1, 2006 by sue1957

[jen]

The LEA threatened to report us to the educational welfare worker for not sending our son to school when his LSA was not there. (The LEA has taken 10 hours off our son for no reason and with no assessment).

 

So I took the bull by the horns and rang the duty officer myself stating I was keeping my child off school and the LEA has threated to report us to them. We had notified the LEA in writing of why we were keeping our son off school. All the EWO said was she had documented the incident and they would take no action because we had written to the lea and could we contact THE EWO if things changed.

 

 

one for us none for the LEA.

EWO are concerned about the childrens welfare, if it is more suitable and less stressful for a special needs child to go on holiday out of school holidays than no one can say anything as it is for the good of the child.

 

Jen

[pumpkinpie]

I try and ader to school holidays but its not always possible. I also think that education welfares job is to chase the regular truants or parents who take their kid out of school for months at a time, not to pick on sen parents who do it occasionally - would look too bad in the papers!

[Tez]

I've just remembered that last year we asked the school if we could take A out on holiday during term time for 3 weeks. The LEA had just issued their warning notices to parents that term time holidays would not be authorised under any circumstances and would be recorded as unauthorised absence and reported to the EWO and fines issued.

 

The school told us that despite this notice they were able to use their discretion and could authorise the absence on the grounds of special educational need which they did. I think sometimes it's worth putting your case for why it is essential for you to go at that time and sell the benefits of how it will help your child educationally and socially, we all know that not all learning takes place in school and that sometimes a full half term is just too long for our kids.

[smallworld]

This is front page new in our local paper today with a story on the LEA fining parents ?50 for taking kids on holiday during term-time.

I would still do it anyway for 3 reasons :

1. DOH's work doesn't allow us to have holidays whenever.

2. it would still be cheaper to be fined for all 3 kids than pay peak rates.

3. it is far too stressful to take our ASD 6 yr old away in the school hols.

 

wac

[sue1957]

We didn't have our request considered at all, it was an outright no from the HT having previously stood up in front of new parents and intimated fines of ?1000, which we think was a figure he pulled out of a hat. We were not so easily intimidated, but there are other parents who we know are, and some are just intending to throw sickies. I don't know how the school can get away with it when the Dfes attendance registration document says

 

"Parents should not normally take pupils on holidays in term time. Each request for holiday absence should be considered individually, taking account of: the age of the child; the time of year proposed for the trip; its nature and parental wishes; the overall attendance pattern of the pupil; the child's stage of education and progress. Schools should invite parents in to school to discuss any proposed holiday in term time."

 

We had work reasons for going, our kids have no other unauthorised absence, had no SATS etc etc, and there was no problems with stage of education or progress. As for inviting parents into school to discuss any proposed holiday in term time...... perhaps its time the HT was asked for a few appointments.........

I think we should request a meeting to discuss another holiday - just to get over the stress the school caused over the last one you understand.