'Beautiful Young Minds', BBC2, 9pm-10.30pm, on tonight

[Tjololo]

This programme may be of interest to some...

 

Blurb taken from: http://plus.maths.org/latestnews/sep-dec07/bbc/

 

As the title suggests, the documentary highlights, yet again, the link between mathematical ability and autism. "It is a feature of mathematics that people on the autistic spectrum are at no disadvantage. Therefore people with Asperger's syndrome are particularly attracted to the subject," says Geoff Smith, Senior Lecturer in Mathematics at the University of Bath and Chair of the British Mathematical Olympiad, who coached the British team and led the UK delegation to the IMO. "In an average year, there are usually one or two students on the autistic spectrum among the 20 or so young people in serious training for the IMO. However, in the year that the film was made, by chance there were more than usual. The film-makers were clearly intrigued by this, and paid particular attention to some of these students."

Edited October 14, 2007 by Tjololo

[pearl]

Ooh thanks, I was going to watch this anyway, didnt know there was an autie aspect to it.

[di30]

Great, better get in that Shower now first then lol, and try to settle Daniel down I'll be lucky .

 

Cheers for letting us know.

Di x

[CEJesson]

I'm rubbish at maths!

[Mumble]

"AS in the worst possible way that makes you obnoxious, arrogent and completely inconsiderate of other people"

 

Ok, so the prof person went on to say that it was mathematics irrespective of social issues that was important for the IMO but this doesn't undo the above sentence from one of the other competitors. I was really looking forward to this programme - I'm now thinking of turning it off earlier as it's managed to touch on two of my biggest bugbears

1. the idea that only some 'special' people can do maths
2. the stereotypes of AS

[Tally]

I have to say, that was one of the most boring things I ever watched. I think it would have been better as a 5-minute special rather than an hour and a half.

 

I have met 2 aspies who appear obnoxious, arrogant and completely inconsiderate of other people, but I have met many more who do not seem this way, and even these two come across much better in writing where their thought processes are more clear. And I know some obnoxious NTs as well.

[bid]

Sorry, but I thought it was a brilliant programme...we both just loved it!

 

and in equal measure

 

I was so pleased Daniel got his silver medal...and then got married at the end of the programme

 

I felt it was a really good portrayal of the fact that it is a spectrum, for me it wasn't stereotypical.

 

I felt the comment you didn't like, Mumble, was just that person's honest opinion of that particular other competitor.

 

Bid

[Tjololo]

I also thought that that guy's negative comment about AS was a little harsh/unhelpful but I think such a comment was more than outweighed by the non-obnoxious and non-arrogant character of the other team member with AS (Daniel).

 

The ending was great too

[pearl]

I too feel like you bid - I'm emotionally wrung out now.

 

Yes Mumble that comment was very harsh. But to be truthful, I found Jos very hard to like. And I kept thinking, if he wasnt Aspergers I'd have no problem with not liking him - but felt I had to "make allowances" IYSWIM, then I felt like I was being patronising thinking that, ooooh so complicated. I do think his maths was developed at the expense of other things, like basic manners which can be learned mechanically - JP has lovely manners, the result of a lot of hard work by him.

 

However I thought Daniel was lovely, so anyone watching the whole programme would have realised all the different temperaments & personalities there can be within AS, just as within NT.

 

I do hope his marriage works out. They have a lot stacked against them, but a lot going for them as well.

Edited October 14, 2007 by pearl

[bid]

If that was how Jos impacted on that other competitor, then it's only honest to hear that other competitor's view, because to be honest, I could see why he might think that. Unfortunately, the other competitors did seem to find Jos difficult to get along with...but that is part of reality, some people with AS can impact like that on others.

 

Bid

Edited October 14, 2007 by bid

[bid]

Did anyone else love the sequence in the Final of all the stimming by all the different international competitors?

 

Bid

[pearl]

Did anyone else love the sequence in the Final of all the stimming by all the different international competitors?

 

Bid

 

I thought some of those pens were going to go into orbit!

[bid]

I thought some of those pens were going to go into orbit!

 

How intricate were some of those pen stims??

 

Bid

[di30]

Hi

 

Didn't manage to catch much of it, as I was trying to settle down Daniel............still trying to , but I must say I am hopeless with maths, and with my Daniel although he has difficulties at school with the main of the subjects, he is better with mental maths than the practical side of the work.

I must always use a calculator and it still takes me forever to work out what to do on that lol.

I suppose I will never make it to the Carol Vorderman stage

Never mind.

 

Di x

[Pippin]

Haven't watched it yet but recorded it cos Hubby's away tonight. We HAVE to watch it cos he was in the team back when he was 17. (as if I needed any proof of his place on the spectrum!!! )

[bid]

We HAVE to watch it cos he was in the team back when he was 17. (as if I needed any proof of his place on the spectrum!!! )

 

Blumey!!

 

I am definitely of the non-Maths variety myself!

 

Bid

[Pippin]

Me too Bid, but he's scarily good at it! Saves me having to carry a calculator anywhere...or a phone book for that matter as he memorises phone numbers.

[JsMum]

I thought is was very interesting, and I thought the competetors where really honest too, I thought the stimming was interesting and J has a number of times hit his teacher when he has flipped pens and they have gone into the air, he also doodles on papers, I thought Daniels Doodling was great, and he still managed to get a silver medal so he must of done the work, I think it must be a lot of stress and lots of rejection doing the competition, I am very poor at maths myself, J adores numbers and it is defo his strongest tool though he struggles with mental maths, and any questions in text but he is only still Ten, not like these young men, I thought they where incredibly mature.

 

I think there may be a link in there with maths and intelligence in there with Autism.

 

I enjoyed it, it was an insight to there happiness and I adored the wedding, just intreged to know why Daniel didnt go to china as he felt so comfortable there and set up there with his Wife, would love to watch a follow up just on Daniel really, and Jos just to see if he returns to the competition.

 

 

JsMum

[pearl]

I have the distinction of failing maths O level, not once, but TWICE. Got a grade lower the second time, at which point they let me get back to reading my Shakespeare.

[bid]

Well, I did get my Maths 'O' Level (C!), but as soon as I left the exam room the maths left my mind!

 

To this day I can't remember how to do long division

 

Personally, I'm not sure it's quaite naice!

 

Bid

[LizK]

I enjoyed the programme too and loved the way two people with AS were just so different rather than the one size fits all approach that most TV programmes seem to follow. Jos superficially seemed an obnoxious chap who typified all AS stereotypes whereas Daniel was self effacing, insecure and wanted to give him a big hug. The struggles he faced were more subtle but poignant. I couldn't decide whether Jos was a less likeable character because of they way his AS affected him or because of his personality or maybe his upbringing and parenting. Just as some NTs are less likeable than others surely that goes for those on the spectrum. I did feel though that he was being opened to ridicule to a degree by how he was portrayed and the sequences towards the end when he was struggling with his emotions about not getting on the team. Felt sorry for him. His AS (and personality maybe) was certainly going to make his ability to function in every day life difficult and I think anyone who thinks that AS is 'mild' should watch this.

 

Lx

[JsMum]

Do you think it is a male thing to be good at maths, there wasnt any females in the Team, is it just for Males then the competition?

 

JsMum

[bid]

No, there were certainly a couple? of girls in the heats, but they just didn't make it through to the final team.

 

Bid

Edited October 14, 2007 by bid

[Bagpuss]

Flippin eck....I didn't read thru this thread earlier, because I'd read the title wrong, and thought it was about the film Russel Crowe was in Now I've missed it

Edited October 14, 2007 by Bagpuss

[JsMum]

Flippin eck....I didn't read thru this thread earlier, because I'd read the title wrong, and thought it was about the film Russel Crowe was in Now I've missed it

 

 

I did the same thing earlier then I re read the thred as it really didnt make sence as the beautiful mind is about a totally different film and recently been on normal TV.

 

JsMum

[baddad]

Do you think it is a male thing to be good at maths, there wasnt any females in the Team, is it just for Males then the competition?

 

JsMum

 

 

Hi all -

There was a section of the film addressing this, and there is definitely a much higher ratio of guys at the 'top end'... It was that typical male brain thing of boys brains specialising in problem solving while girls were more highly developed socially, Personally, i think that's one of the big reasons why AS girls aren't as easily identified because their AS traits (positive and negative) appear in different areas and are 'masked' in others... I've commented on it loads of times before so will leave it there for now

I think the things we saw with Jos and Daniel were very different manifestations of the same thing: they had both found different ways of coping with the pressures that social situations caused them, but one strategy was far more 'successful' than the other. The comments made about Jos were, I felt, given too much air time for comfort, but were perfectly valid in terms of how he presented to others. The guy making the comment:

 

"AS in the worst possible way that makes you obnoxious, arrogent and completely inconsiderate of other people

actually went out of his way to qualify his observations about Jos, ('in that worst possible way') to challenge it as a general 'rule' - but to deny it did apply to Jos (from what we saw on the film at least) would be a complete misrepresentation.

 

Two bits that I really liked; the fifteen year old rocket/christian guy gave some long speech on the bus about people not doing as much as they could to avoid the stereotypes and then said 'whoops - i've just done it myself' (paraphrased)

The other bit was when they were talking to Jos about interacting with others and he said 'Well I was trying to interact quite a lot with... (redheaded girl)... but she didn't seem to be as keen to interact with me'. Much more revealing than all of the film makers attempts to pin him down on interpersonal stuff, if you ask me...

 

There were some bits of the film I didn't really like: i thought it was at points unnecessarily intrusive and the makers had their own agenda, but for the most part it showed AS very positively. These were people with very real emotions ( a love story no less!), who were passionate about their work, and who very much wanted to interact with other people despite the enormous problems it sometimes caused them. That didn't pander to stereotypes - it trampled them underfoot

And somebody really, really should have told that ex gold medalist/now judge about his haircut!

 

Any hour of telly that makes me want to & & <'> all at the same time is good value IMO!

 

Just wish I'd set the recorder up

 

L&P

 

BD

[Kathryn]

Missed it, unfortunately, due to rugby on the other channel.. I hope it'll be repeated.

 

K x

[zaman]

Mixed emotions for me as well. I'm so please for Daniel - and like BD loved the quote from Jos about how he wanted to 'bond' with the girl far more than she wanted to bond with him! From a mums point of view, if that boy with glasses from the Chinese team was my son, I'm sure I would be saying things like wouldn't you like some fresh air?

 

The other thing that struck me was the boy who appeared early on in the British team, who described himself as 'ethnic Chinese' talking about why he hated Chinese people. It made me cringe in that same way that listening to my son describe the person next to him as stupid does.

Edited October 15, 2007 by zaman

[mossgrove]

Overall, I thought it was an excellent, thought-provoking doumentary.

 

I think we need to be careful before condeming Jos as basically unlikeable. He was plainly unable to process emotional informationin the same way as most people do, hence the awkward scene where they questioned him about his disappointment at not making the cut, while he was still struggling tounderstand his own feelings on the matter. Given this difference I think it would be unfair to judge him for being insufficently empathetic to those around him if he is unable to make sense of the feelings of those people around him. I think this was behind his description of his relationship with his parents simply in terms of their respective roles. In some ways he is simply more honest than the rest of us!

 

Suzanne Moore (mother of two Autistic boys) in her book George and Sam touches on loving children that do not return love in a conventional way. Jos' mum had got her head around it very well.

 

I thought Daniels explanation for not knowing how to make a cup of tea was illuminating. It isn't that he couldn't (Through reasons of dexterity or whatever) it's simply that as there was always someone else around who could make a cup of tea, he didn't see the point in taking time away from maths to learn how to make one!

 

Listening to the man helping to run the British team describe the stats about the way the team had performed in the past raised a wry smile too.

 

One thing that I personally found a little unsetting when listening to it is that Daniel sounds exactly like my brother! (In terms of tone, inflexion etc.). My brother was also highly mathematical in his youth and when on to get a first class degree in maths at Cambridge.

 

Overall I think it struck a nice balance. Being Autistic in todays siciety is not easy, and I think it was fair of the documentary to reflect that.

 

 

Simon

[pearl]

I take your point about Jos Simon, but what bothered me is that he didnt appear to have been taught (or wasnt bothered about) some very basic interactions which would have made his life easier.

 

One thing that really jumped out at me. The interviewer congratulated him on getting through to the next round. No response. So a minute or so later he said it again (maybe thinking Jos hadn't heard). Yes, you already said that, he replied. Logical to him, but came across very rude. If he'd been taught to say "thankyou" to a positive comment or compliment (or he may have been but decided not to follow this rule) he woud have come across so much better. We all have to do this, AS or NT.

 

I felt very uncomfortable during the scene when all the others were criticising him behind his back. I would have been very upset about that if I was his mum. But again it helped people understand the many different personality types in AS & that he didn't represent everyone there.

[Mumble]

Oh crikey, what've I started - apologies, profusily - fingers typed before brain went into gear. I was unlucky I suppose - I got in and turned it on just before that comment was made so I missed any of the background - hey I didn't even twig that Daniel was AS

 

I suppose, and I guess from lots of people's replies on here, that I'm more annoyed and upset (not with anyone here or anything said here) by the general portrayal of mathematicians and people 'who can do' maths as somehow diferent. Such a discourse is so prevelent in our society and documentaries such as this appear to perpetuate a dominiant can/can't dichotomy. It's that that worries me, not any link between AS and maths or males and maths (the latter of which I could argue for hours on).

[mossgrove]

Mumble

 

Good to see you posting again!

 

I don't think it was satying that people who could 'do' maths were different, they were not talking about just 'doing maths'.

 

What we have here is people who can focus to a quite extraordinary degree that would be completely beyond most of the population, and even beyond the vast majority people with maths degrees. For a teenager to have that degree of focus on one particular thing will inevitably set them apart from their peers, regardless of the object of that focus, just as some teenage sprortsmen/women or actors/actresses find they do not have a conventional social life with their peer group. The sheer amount of time spent makes it impossible.

 

 

Simon

[Mumble]

Hi Simon,

 

Yep - again a case of me not really watching it and coming in at the wrong moment - hopefully it will be repeated so I can get a more balanced view.

 

I supposed it's this bit:

 

What we have here is people who can focus to a quite extraordinary degree that would be completely beyond most of the population, and even beyond the vast majority people with maths degrees.

whether it is maths or any other subject, that I find difficult - why should it be beyond most of the population to focus to this degree? Just something I find very interesting, that's all.

[mossgrove]

In order to hyper-focus on one thing, you need to filter an awful lot of stuff out, e.g. background noise, thinking about other people, other things you may be interested in, worries in general, hunger, thirst whatever is goin on and focus purely on the job in hand. Most people (myself included) are too easily distracted to be able to focus to this degree, you have to be really, really interested in what you are doing.

 

Evidence suggests that being able to focus to this degree is an area of strength for autistic people. You don't have to be autistic, but it helps! Simon Baron-Cohen theorises that this is due to Autistic people being better at systemising (e.g. organising things according to a system ir set of rules) at the expense of empathising which requires a different set of skills. He also says that men are (in general) better at systemising than empathising, which gacve rise to his 'extreme maleness' theory of Autism.

 

The attendees did seem to be overwhelmingly male!

 

Simon

[pearl]

Oh crikey, what've I started - apologies, profusily - fingers typed before brain went into gear. I was unlucky I suppose - I got in and turned it on just before that comment was made so I missed any of the background - hey I didn't even twig that Daniel was AS

 

I suppose, and I guess from lots of people's replies on here, that I'm more annoyed and upset (not with anyone here or anything said here) by the general portrayal of mathematicians and people 'who can do' maths as somehow diferent. Such a discourse is so prevelent in our society and documentaries such as this appear to perpetuate a dominiant can/can't dichotomy. It's that that worries me, not any link between AS and maths or males and maths (the latter of which I could argue for hours on).

 

You haven't "started" anything hun <'> its a v interesting thread with differing views expressed which is exactly how it should be.

Your question about focus is interesting - it probs comes naturally to you, but I certainly couldnt focus to that degree. All the mathematicians there, whether AS or NT, had that ability which is essential when working at that level. But you can see why there would be a high percentage of AS peeps among them as focusing in is one of the strengths of AS.

Simon has put this much better, I was still typing this when he posted!

[pearl]

Ooh btw Mumble - Daniel was dx'd on the programme by Official Good Bloke SBC!

[KarenT]

Listening to the man helping to run the British team describe the stats about the way the team had performed in the past raised a wry smile too.

I'm pretty sure that was Marjorie Dawes in a bad black wig.

 

But loved the programme. Daniel was fab.

 

Karen

x

[smiley]

 

Nooooooooooo! Forgot it was on.

 

Anone record it??

 

[KarenT]

Nooooooooooo! Forgot it was on.

 

Anone record it??

I've got it recorded, Smiley, but I missed the first five mins. If nobody else can oblige, you can have my copy.

 

Karen

x

[pearl]

I'm currently in debate with a poster called Neil on the Londonpaper website who is arguing that Aspergers is mild How did I get into this, I dont even live in London!