the knife law its mad.

[JsMum]

So if your 16 and caught carry a knife your prossicuted, but if your 15 then your cautioned??/

 

Why

 

it should be against the law to carry a knife from much younger, many children carry knives, but they wont get any offences.

 

JsMum

[hev]

im scared stiff of steven going out due to knives,the boys on my old estate carry knives and think of it as normal,i think its devastating when young kids are stabbed and killed

[Kathryn]

Here's the news report on this subject.

 

They've lowered the age limit for prosecution from 18 to 16. I wonder if it will have any effect?

 

K x

[bid]

We moved from ASBO Alley in November, the roughest road in our town...

 

In the last week we heard there were two stabbings there!

 

Boho

[JsMum]

I thinks its mad because the people who have lost there lives lately have been killed by youths as young as 12yrs old, so does that mean they cant be prossicuted.

 

JsMum

Edited June 5, 2008 by JsMum

[Enid]

Think it does mean that, they will probably prosecute parents if they are caught with knives like they are going to start doing with drinking : Enid

[Kathryn]

There was some discussion about doing away with the sharp point on all household knives, as it's not really essential to the knife's usual purpose, and it's the point that does most of the damage.

 

K x

[Canopus]

This knife ban is absolutely pathetic. It will do absolutely nothing to halt knife crime. Why doesn't this useless government do the right thing and legalise electric stun guns. They are an effective non-lethal weapon that can be bought from every DIY store over in the US. A quick press of the trigger will stop a knife attacker. This probably explains why knife crime is much lower in the US than in Britain.

[pookie170]

Aye, but then would-be muggers would just stun the heck out of you and rob you (or worse) as you lay there sensless.....And I just bet some folk would tinker with a stun gun to make it deliver a more potent blow.

Part of the problem is the whole prestige thing that often accompanies the carrier of a knife- and believe me, this applies to girls as much as boys! But what would YOU do to try and beat down the problem? Not saying this ban is the best idea since sliced bread, I also think its a bit pointless, but what should be done instead?

All answers on a postcard to Gordon Brown, 10 Downing Street....

 

I don't think a minor who actually uses a knife to stab/slice someone gets off scot free, but I do think if they get caught carrying a knife then there should be a mandatory period of education. Having to see first hand, the damage a knife can do and the devastating effects it has on families might stop some from carrying again.....

 

Esther

[warrenpenalver]

punnishment is only half the issue. ASBO's = street cred in many rough areas and even prosecution and a stint in youth offenders unit probably teaches them new criminal skills as well as making more street cred and help their "hard man" image.

 

It needs a major culture change which will take many years. The old values of respect have changed so much and its only really long term education at home and school that will change that.

[mossgrove]

This knife ban is absolutely pathetic. It will do absolutely nothing to halt knife crime. Why doesn't this useless government do the right thing and legalise electric stun guns. They are an effective non-lethal weapon that can be bought from every DIY store over in the US. A quick press of the trigger will stop a knife attacker. This probably explains why knife crime is much lower in the US than in Britain.

 

 

I have no idea if Knife Crime is lower in the US than here, bit you are conveniently ignoring the fact that many people in the US carry guns instead of knives because they are freely and legally available, which is why literally tens of thousands of people die in gun-related incidents there every year. Please don't advocate that we should become like the US!

 

Simon

Edited June 6, 2008 by mossgrove

[Bagpuss]

I think this is just the tip of the iceberg, and the reasons behind all the problems go very deep indeed.

 

Society has altered beyond recognition, families have changed so much.

 

There is no respect anymore IMO, and adults have become afraid of children.

[Tally]

I think the laws we already have are adequate. I think that actually enforcing them would make the biggest difference. I thought 10 was considered the age of criminal responsibility. I don't think someone breaking the law should be treated differently because of their age.

[sadie]

A few years ago my son wasn't permitted to collect some camping cutlery sets that I'd ordered from a shop because they included some (bluntish) knives, yet he was handed over some potentially lethal metal skewers !!!!

It's a total farce.

[bid]

I think this is just the tip of the iceberg, and the reasons behind all the problems go very deep indeed.

 

Society has altered beyond recognition, families have changed so much.

 

There is no respect anymore IMO, and adults have become afraid of children.

 

I completely agree, Baggy.

 

Living on ASBO Alley was like visiting another planet...you just wouldn't believe what was considered 'normal' and acceptable

 

Boho

[warrenpenalver]

banning knives wont work either as almost every household has a selection of knives in the kitchen and probably one or two in the garage/shed too.

 

Not to mention boot sales and market stalls.

 

Only takes a small knife to create a fatal injury.

 

How many people would really notice a small kitchen knife going missing? or even a steak knive or old knife out shed or something?

 

Not to forget screwdrivers are just as effective as a stab weapon.

 

 

The problem with enforcing the law from age 10 is the governement doesnt have enough facilities to lock up that many kids!!!

[warrenpenalver]

Society has altered beyond recognition, families have changed so much.

 

There is no respect anymore IMO, and adults have become afraid of children.

I completely agree, Baggy.

 

Living on ASBO Alley was like visiting another planet...you just wouldn't believe what was considered 'normal' and acceptable

I had refrained from saying something extreme about a solution to the problems!! I tend to have quite extreme solutions on crime and bad behaviour. But i might as well let rip as opinion seems quite strong here!!

 

Prison system!! ARRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH Is it a prison or a holiday camp?? once convicted all humanrights should be revoked except basic shelter, food and health care!!! Bring back hard labour for prisoners!! No TV's. no cushy training courses, no parole, no early release. ONly minor offenders should get training courses and then that should be evenings while in prison in addition to hard labour.

 

In the UK as a whole we need to ditch the European Human Rights Convention and write our own UK equivelent that allows for the needs of the many rather than just the individual. And also incorporate victims rights more strongly than the accused/convicted. Im not saying remove "innocent until proven guilty" But i do think the bias needs to serve the victim and public interest much more.

 

I think certain aspects of the policing in Northern Ireland need to be adopted on the main land. My experience of seeing them in action shows them to be more "robust" (ok, brutal and violent ) but out there with even deeper problems that approach tends to work better than the softly softly approach and ineffective community support officer system here!!

 

The big problem is trying to enforce "consequnces for your actions" without appearing to be brutal or inhumane. Unfortunately in many crime riddled communities where respect does not exist, most these thugs will only really understand a kicking or serious extreme prison as the current system doesnt deter them. At present there is no "consequence". If the law and prison does not deter someone from crime or bad behaviour, then what else have you got other than using pain to enforce that "consequence"?? Then you have to ask if we can life with the fact we may need to stoop to thier level to change them or should we just throw away the key when we lock them up, or uphold our morals and just watch our country fall apart???

 

On the other side you could argue that for many of these teenage thugs it is the parental upbringing and environment they live in thats significantly responsible for thier behaviour now. This isnt a new problem either, we are looking at 2nd and 3rd generation families now where the moral grounding being taught to these children is all messed up. In some ways you cant blame some of those children as theyve been bought up to believe certain things, but they can be changed and ultimately they choose to commit crime. It doesnt help that the rich/poor divide in this country is getting bigger than ever and despite the governements claims of equality in education etc being on the poor side certainly makes things much harder to get a good education and even harder if the parents of the child dont care very much.

 

Unfortunately i think any short term solutions (next 10 years) would need to be unpopular, harsh or morally suspect and only the long term solutions will work. but then you have to ask have we left it too little too late for the long term ways of fixing this?? MAybe we would be better off with a short sharp shock to regain control then the long term educational and social policys to back it up for future generations??

[Canopus]

I had refrained from saying something extreme about a solution to the problems!! I tend to have quite extreme solutions on crime and bad behaviour. But i might as well let rip as opinion seems quite strong here!!

 

Prison system!! ARRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH Is it a prison or a holiday camp?? once convicted all humanrights should be revoked except basic shelter, food and health care!!! Bring back hard labour for prisoners!! No TV's. no cushy training courses, no parole, no early release. ONly minor offenders should get training courses and then that should be evenings while in prison in addition to hard labour.

 

It has crossed my mind several times that the prison service should be taken over by the army.

 

I think certain aspects of the policing in Northern Ireland need to be adopted on the main land. My experience of seeing them in action shows them to be more "robust" (ok, brutal and violent ) but out there with even deeper problems that approach tends to work better than the softly softly approach and ineffective community support officer system here!!

 

Like deploying plastic bullets.

 

Unfortunately i think any short term solutions (next 10 years) would need to be unpopular, harsh or morally suspect and only the long term solutions will work. but then you have to ask have we left it too little too late for the long term ways of fixing this?? MAybe we would be better off with a short sharp shock to regain control then the long term educational and social policys to back it up for future generations??

 

A short sharp shock from a stun gun. Unlike knives they are non-lethal and don't leave scars.

[warrenpenalver]

It has crossed my mind several times that the prison service should be taken over by the army.

What a brilliant idea!!!!! Maybe national service for 6 months for all age 16 to help with discipline. I dont mean send tham to irag or afghan, but lots of screaming drill sargeants and parade training and face in the mud after falling into a ditch!!

 

A short sharp shock from a stun gun. Unlike knives they are non-lethal and don't leave scars.

And also you can zap them again and again as they try and give you "lip" or "back chat" Maybe if they loose a few brain cells the yobs might forget how to commit crime and just obey rules and laws.

[baddad]

 

This is starting to sound a bit like a Harry Enfield sketch....

 

Naaaaaaaaaaaaa, blumming children in need - I'll tell you what they need....

 

Yes, I would quite agree that the new proposals on the carrying of offensive weapons seems inherently flawed.

 

BD

[Frangipani]

The biggest problems is what is being purchased on the internet. Many things are available that are banned in most countries, and they can buy without customs intervening.

 

But stun guns, they should be banned worldwide, those cowboys in the US, did you see on the news how they used one on a Uni student that continued to speak out during a lecture. It was filmed on a mobile phone, they are only supposed to use it once, but they kept using it at least half a dozen times.

 

But what people buy on the internet is my biggest concern.

 

Edited June 9, 2008 by Frangipani

[mossgrove]

I worked in prisons for a good few years, and I can see where Warren and Canopus are coming from.

 

To understand why they are both wrong a little history lesson is required.

 

In the early 1980's when the Conservatives came to power a lot of MPs thought exactly as you do, only maybe not as extreme.

 

The outcome was the short sharp shock detention centre. Military style discipline to show these young thugs what was what and teach them some respect. It was considered by it's advoctes to be such overwhelming common sense that no debate was really necessary.

 

There was a problem though, and it came to light when they looked at the outcomes for peole who had been through these detention centres.

 

Those who were already hardened and didn't care were further alienated and carried on regardless. Many others went in as vulnerable young people who had become caught up in the system and came out as hardened young criminals. Re-offending rates soared and the idea was quiety dropped. The approach does not work, however much 'common sense' says that it should.

 

I can speak from experience when I say that prisons are full of people who are damaged and vulnerable, usually come from massively challenging backgrounds (Often involving abuse and homelessness) and mental illness is rampant.

 

That is not to say that criminals should not be punished and society does not need to be protected by the use of prison where necessary.

 

What upsets me about the tone that this tread has taken is that Autistic people suffer more than almost anybody in society from rejection without any attempt to understand, and an orgy of condemnation without understanding is not what I want to see on this site.

 

Simon

[JsMum]

I can speak from experience when I say that prisons are full of people who are damaged and vulnerable, usually come from massively challenging backgrounds (Often involving abuse and homelessness) and mental illness is rampant.

 

 

 

From a friend who works in prisons mainly young offenders many are going throw assessments for ADHD/ASD because adequate support and services where not available, many still go un assessed, as it depends on location of the prison and so many areas will have a higher proportion than other, me and J visited a van that has a cell thats taken to schools to show you what its like in prison, just the sensory side an Undiagnosed ADHD/ASD would be very destressed, displaying throw esculating behaviours to then been removed to isolation causing furhter mental distress.

 

There is a theory that if a child reaches 8 and on the road to anti social and low level criminal behaviour then there is higher chance they wont be reached, to change, the answer is from babyhood-toddler-to young childhood.

 

I know friends who have had apauling backgrounds but they have done a lot to turn that around, and learn to like themselves so that they can let others in.

 

I would say that we dont need an army to correct the above prisoners, but proper care/health/education services, I do believe that its far too easy to be brought into the criminal system.

 

However the laws are totally out of ballance, for a 16 yr old to carry a knife to be prossecuted but his younger brother who is 15yrs to be given a caution is totally not right, they should be both prossecuted, the sentence is automatic prison centence too, so one boy goes to prison the other boy gets a caution, this is why young people get defensive of todays law system.

 

I think there is too many people who break serious crimes and they dont get enough time in prison, either so its unballanced.

 

I know that if it was a fairer system then it may work better, prisons are full right now, so at the moment its probably not going to work this new knife law.

 

JsMum

Edited June 9, 2008 by JsMum

[warrenpenalver]

Those who were already hardened and didn't care were further alienated and carried on regardless. Many others went in as vulnerable young people who had become caught up in the system and came out as hardened young criminals. Re-offending rates soared and the idea was quiety dropped. The approach does not work, however much 'common sense' says that it should.

Interesting!!! nice to see they kept that one secret!!

 

I can speak from experience when I say that prisons are full of people who are damaged and vulnerable, usually come from massively challenging backgrounds (Often involving abuse and homelessness) and mental illness is rampant.

 

That is not to say that criminals should not be punished and society does not need to be protected by the use of prison where necessary.

Yes although this is true, the vast majority or people in prison are still mentally culpable for thier actions. Most of them know the law VERY well and still chose to commit crime. THose who are incompetant for thier actions due to mental illness do need protecting but theres the balance between public protection and needs of the individual. Yes there well may be some people who were led by others or as a consequence of circumstance felt the only option was to commit crime to survive, but it would be interesting to know the actual figures for those people compared to prison population as a whole.

 

So then it comes back to parenting doesnt it?? some people are inherently bad regardless of parenting. id like to think a lot of the delinquents we see today just dont know any better and its because of the screwed up morals and rules taught at home that theyve turned to crime, but how do we stop this?? remove parenting from home?? massive social services expansion and parenting "assessments" at home?? locking up the parents when the kids or young adults commit crime???

 

Yes you could argue its not the kids fault theyve been taught the wrong morals, but falling short of mass removal of children from "incompetant" parents and state run parenting classes etc, theres not much we can do. Unless the childs bringing up accounts to abuse AND its detected, there is very little anyone can do under the current systems in place. By the time they fall into the youth offending or as a teen hit social services the damage is already done and the system is playing catch up. and its a system thats underfunded and lacks resources.

 

What upsets me about the tone that this tread has taken is that Autistic people suffer more than almost anybody in society from rejection without any attempt to understand, and an orgy of condemnation without understanding is not what I want to see on this site.

erm this is hardly an orgy?? I thought we were trying to have a debate on the subject so its good you comment and correct our lack of knowledge. the vast majority dont have your knowledge of the prison system and only see the cold face mostly as victims of crime not the resoning why the criminal commited it, so we are bound to be biased.

 

I think knife crime and kids carry knives deserves universal condemnation regardless of understanding as quite frankly the risks are too high.

 

From a friend who works in prisons mainly young offenders many are going throw assessments for ADHD/ASD because adequate support and services where not available, many still go un assessed, as it depends on location of the prison and so many areas will have a higher proportion than other

ADHD i can understand why someone undiagnosed (or diagnosed) could tend towards crime quite easily. ASD combined with bad parenting or being easily led i could understand too. Although many people with ASD's tend to follow rules, i guess if taught the wrong rules or not taught any rules problems would occur. Plus if someone you trusted says "its ok" to do something, that might be hard to change thier opinion later.

 

I still dont think that accounts for the knife culture we have. The generation of CHAVS/NEDS doesnt help matters as the trouble they cause is far higher proportionalitly to thier numbers!!!

 

There is a theory that if a child reaches 8 and on the road to anti social and low level criminal behaviour then there is higher chance they wont be reached, to change, the answer is from babyhood-toddler-to young childhood.

Which means better parenting needed to prevent as many children as possible getting down that road. I guess ultimately it comes down to money to force/teach those who dont parent correctly the skills.

 

I know friends who have had apauling backgrounds but they have done a lot to turn that around, and learn to like themselves so that they can let others in.

So in many cases its still a concious decision to turn to crime despite the appalling background????

 

 

 

so back to the original topic, how do we stop these kids carrying knives????? If locking them up doesnt work then what else?? parenting will only really help the next generation of teenagers, so how do we stop the current generation of teenagers doing it?? more police?? kevlar vests to remove the "i carry a knife to protect myself" arguement, metal detectors everywhere?? lockable knife stowages at homes?? legally enforced curfews for those under 18??

[NobbyNobbs]

i'm for metal detectors. i lived near washington DC and to gain access to shopping malls, office buildings, museums... pretty much anywhere public you had to go through airport-style security. you went through a metal scanner, and your bag was searched. there weren't hour-long lines, you just got used to taking off your belt and having your bag open when you got to the entrance of anywhere. it made me feel a lot safer, and as far as i was aware noone complained.

theres far too much 'but what if people dont' like it?' going round at the moment. if its the rules, its the rules and people should just get over it. if you're innocent and not carrying a weapon, you've got nothing to fear, and if you are carrying a weapon then you shouldn't have the right to complain. at the end of the day they're breaking a law!

 

i also had the pleasure(!) of going through the new strip you naked body scanner at heathrow. it wasn't particularly, fun, in fact it felt rather creepy to have someone sitting behind a partition who could see it all, but again, i then knew that there wasn't anyone carrying anything dangerous on my flight. a bit of inconvienience is far better than a bomb or a knife.

 

oh and some good old fashioned parenting and education would go a long way:D saying that parenting isn't the right way to go because it doesn't have an instant effect is all well and good, but the kids are growing up all the time and this years sweet 6 year olds are soon going to be the weapon wealders.

 

rant over

Edited June 9, 2008 by NobbyNobbs

[bid]

It's a difficult one...

 

On the one hand I really do agree with BD and Mossgrove here.

 

But on the other hand, we spent 5 years on ASBO Alley: police every Fri and Sat at least for fights outside our house (sometimes between gangs of youngsters, sometimes between the women for some reason even more than the men??), a drug/alcohol related death, stolen car set alight that then exploded, garages burnt down, constant (and I mean constant) screaming, swearing, mini motorbikes, LOUD music, kids from about 18 months just allowed to roam outside often in nothing but a t-shirt...and now we hear that there have been two stabbings there last week.

 

It's also very hard, when you come home from a 10 hour late shift to see most of the road sitting outside drinking, when you have openly heard the same people say that they have no intention of getting a job

 

I felt unsafe and intimidated for the whole time we had to live there, and extremely worried all the time for my children

 

Blumey, I hope I don't sound too extreme, but this is the reality for very many people and it is awful.

 

Boho

[bid]

Been thinking about this some more...

 

I think there has to be a balance between acknowledging the role of mental health problems, homelessness, etc, and the imperative for society to recognise personal responsibility.

 

In other words, a balance between 'String 'em up' and 'It's not their fault because...'

 

Don't have a clue how to establish this balance, though

 

Boho

[JsMum]

Bid, are you happier and safer where you live now, I think that can make a massive difference on where you live and what behaviour is right in front of your face day in and day out, its must of been horful but areas like that, children like mine would be so easily led,

 

J is fasinated by gangs and guns, and knifes, I am trying my best to teach him the dangers and the risks, but if he where surrounded by it by his community it wouldnt be long before others would throw the word young thug, asbos kid at J. when in fact he is just vulnerable,

 

which Is another reason he doesnt play outside alone, he has constant supervision all the time,

 

I am trying to get J to take responisbilites especially as he can not acept no blame or fault throw his reasoning and comprehension so I know its really difficult to keep children in line, know the responisbilities, when he was younger and his behavious was a concern we had support for 6 weeks and that was it, left to struggle again, the services dont stretch to the legnth of time someone needs the help, its for short periods, it may be that the drunks/jobless do want a better way of life but because support is only short time it fails.

 

I think parents have a lot of responisilities now aday, with techology advancing and crime becoming ever more dangerous I know at times I get overwelmed and that not even adressing his SENs, I know that I am trying a lot of workbooks, websites, dvds to help J be more aware of how things can be in todays society, and the consequences of his actions/ but can I get him on a behaviour management course, can I get him councilling, can I get him anger management, can I get him a specialist education.... no, yet jonny down the road who caved a boys head has it all in his ASBO support, anger management, parent classes, and an alternative education, another boy down the road got a caution and another one got a detention sentence, and they have all done the same offence.

 

the Law system its all over the place, that why Im saying it just makes boys as young as J think there not committing an offence if they carry a knife, as your only prossicuted if your 16 or over, and then aparently if you have a good reason for carrying a knife your cautioned if the cps believe your story because no 16 yr old is goning to say the truth and come out with a story like,, Im carring it to eat my steak, later on,!

 

I just think the law should be fairer, and the senctences/punishments be more evenly ballanced, can not believe how this original post has come around todays youth crime and anti social behaviour, but I can see there linked and its a scarey topic for the future generations.

 

 

JsMum

Edited June 9, 2008 by JsMum

[warrenpenalver]

But on the other hand, we spent 5 years on ASBO Alley...................................

 

I felt unsafe and intimidated for the whole time we had to live there, and extremely worried all the time for my children

 

Blumey, I hope I don't sound too extreme, but this is the reality for very many people and it is awful.

 

And when you live in that reality daily, your perspective is such that so called "extreme" measures dont seem so extreme or unacceptable if it allows you to feel safe. People who dont live with such things wont really understand the fear it causes.

 

In other words, a balance between 'String 'em up' and 'It's not their fault because...'

 

Don't have a clue how to establish this balance, though

The big problem here is the government have even less a clue than us!!

 

I am trying to get J to take responisbilites especially as he can not acept no blame or fault throw his reasoning and comprehension so I know its really difficult to keep children in line, know the responisbilities, when he was younger and his behavious was a concern we had support for 6 weeks and that was it, left to struggle again, the services dont stretch to the legnth of time someone needs the help, its for short periods, it may be that the drunks/jobless do want a better way of life but because support is only short time it fails.

Well your a good mother and are doing the best you can given the circumstances and difficulties your son has. Your trying to put the right rules and morals into his head so he can choose the right things to do. The problem is some parents lack the dedication or willpower or time, or just dont want to teach thier children the same way.

 

It really is tragic the system is so underfunded that the benefit is lost due to short term treatment. Surely the longer investment would be repaid many times over if it means the person getting the treatment eventually works to better themselves rather than being a drain on the prison and social welfare system for life, not to mention causing untold suffering to the victims of thier crimes.

I think parents have a lot of responisilities now aday, with techology advancing and crime becoming ever more dangerous I know at times I get overwelmed and that not even adressing his SENs, I know that I am trying a lot of workbooks, websites, dvds to help J be more aware of how things can be in todays society, and the consequences of his actions/ but can I get him on a behaviour management course, can I get him councilling, can I get him anger management, can I get him a specialist education.... no, yet jonny down the road who caved a boys head has it all in his ASBO support, anger management, parent classes, and an alternative education, another boy down the road got a caution and another one got a detention sentence, and they have all done the same offence.

Prevention is better than the cure in this case and it baffles me that the government either cant see it or wont fund it. Maybe it looks better to voters to say " weve reformed xxx thousand criminals" rather than " weve potentially stopped xxx thousand from maybe commiting a crime"

 

I just think the law should be fairer, and the senctences/punishments be more evenly ballanced, can not believe how this original post has come around todays youth crime and anti social behaviour, but I can see there linked and its a scarey topic for the future generations.

A fair and balanced criminal justice system and law in total. The law is too fair on criminals. the human rights law etc is followed to the letter for people under such prison/asbo etc etc systems yet the average public although technically under the same laws, theres no one there to enforce them for ordinary people. Plus theres the money side i guess.

 

I think the post has come round to youth crime because knife crime is mearly a symptom of the problems of crime and anti-socail behaviour, moral-degradeation etc widespread in this country.

[pearl]

Been thinking about this some more...

 

I think there has to be a balance between acknowledging the role of mental health problems, homelessness, etc, and the imperative for society to recognise personal responsibility.

 

In other words, a balance between 'String 'em up' and 'It's not their fault because...'

 

Don't have a clue how to establish this balance, though

 

Boho

 

*nods* I've kept out of this so far, but thats about how I feel bid. I grew up on a rough estate & took a different route home from school each afternoon so I would have less chance of getting beaten up. (And I was still beaten up, more than once.) No one told me to do this, I just learned to be streetwise. And that was over 40 years ago, that same estate is so much worse now. I am very thankful I've been lucky enough to raise my children in a decent area, hats off to you for coping so well for those five years, I don't think I could have.

 

And now JP is saving hard for his own place, and we will help him all we can to get a place in a decent neighbourhood, because he simply doesnt have the street smarts to survive in a rougher (but more affordable) area. In our city centre in the last few weeks there have been two separate instances of autistic teens being threatened & robbed or marched to cashpoints, all caught on CCTV.

 

Some of the folk I grew up with were the salt of the earth. Even those with troubled backgrounds had the support of a good church primary school & a clear moral code to follow. I don't know of anyone from those days who did anything more than petty crime. But its a very different story in that area now.

[Kathryn]

Social deprivation is not the only reason for crime.

 

We live in a decent area in a niceish town - and yet I dread this time of year when the weather gets warm - we have teens running riot in the park behind us, riding their scooters and motorbikes all over the grass and drinking into the small hours. Two playgrounds have been continually vandalised and the equipment in both has been set on fire which means the whole place had to be closed for months while it was fixed. The phone boxes near us are hardly ever intact. These aren't socially deprived youngsters, just people who get their kicks from committing mindless acts of vandalism - for the sheer hell of it. What to do about them?

 

I think alcohol plays a big part.

 

K x

[warrenpenalver]

took a different route home from school each afternoon so I would have less chance of getting beaten up. (And I was still beaten up, more than once.) No one told me to do this, I just learned to be streetwise.

I wish i learned to be streetwise when young I didnt learn about different routes and security tactics until i joined the navy Least i learnt it eventually!! Although i still dont understand all the street "codes" there seem to be. For example i understand that too much eye contact with "aggressors" can lead to violence with a "what you loooookin at!!" type response from the thug, but also too little eye contact can have same effect as you look weak. But in the military they also taught us that direct positive eye contact can make the aggressor back down if you appear stronger than they would like. I know body posture effects it too. They taught us to look out for potential "threats" and what to look for, but the thugs/bullies use same tactics to look out for targets to attack and if you know what they look for you can avoid it.

 

I still struggle to achieve that in the UK streets on a daily basis.

 

To be frank hiding in the bushes or the school library worked best for me!!

 

And now JP is saving hard for his own place, and we will help him all we can to get a place in a decent neighbourhood, because he simply doesnt have the street smarts to survive in a rougher (but more affordable) area. In our city centre in the last few weeks there have been two separate instances of autistic teens being threatened & robbed or marched to cashpoints, all caught on CCTV.

I fear a lot of that when im on the streets as i still dont get a lot of being streetwise even if i know the theory. So far ive had sheltered life in navy behind metal fence with armed guards!!! The one time i did live independantly was an 8 month course in Imperial College London and lived in student halls. It was a nightmare!! 3 break ins, 2 stolen bikes, 2 muggings and a hate campaign against me by students and drug pushers as i complained and got the drug pushers arrested as they used to knock on my door asking if i wanted pills or weed and also used to drug deal in the arches of the church opposite my window so they had to be reported for that as they showed no respect!! Not to mention being shouted at by "nation of islam" preachers while walking down edgware road!! Got beat up twice but managed to get away without injury so that doesnt really count much.

 

Social deprivation is not the only reason for crime.

 

These aren't socially deprived youngsters, just people who get their kicks from committing mindless acts of vandalism - for the sheer hell of it. What to do about them?

 

I think alcohol plays a big part.

Unfortunately money doesnt garuntee good parenting. certainly helps with "options" and choices as they get older. Despite the so called education system being accessable to all, having money certainly helps when deciding about further education and schooling.

 

You say get thier kicks. I guess evil/bad people can exist in all social backgrounds.

 

I dont think all those kids doing mindless stuff are all evil/bad but in this society with the crime/lack of morals/social degradation means that many people dont learn the consequence of thier actions compared to say 20-30 years ago. I remember when really naughty i might get a clip round ear and sent to bed without dinner or if i swore then get mouth washed out with soap, and i feared the local policeman!!! These days the PC brigade would probably call that abuse!!! So in some ways its not all the parents fault!! grounding doesnt work anymore as most kids dont NEED to go out to remain occupied. I think lines as a punishment are out too. I used to get loads of lines if i didnt do chores right i got 1500 lines one weekend for being home late from school and not ringing. Learnt my lesson though, even if i did cheat by selotaping several pens together to do multiple lines at once I wont ever forget the wooden spoon i got for being blamed for burning down a sports pavilion. The local yobs burnt it down but they said i did it and as i didnt look my gran in the eye when questioned i had "admitted my guilt" so got blamed and punnished!!! Not to mention banned from playing fields by the council representative (not that i used them anyway!!).

 

 

I guess that taught me my actions have consequence. I dont think "time out" works quite as well. Or "go to your room" when youve got internet/ps3 etc in room!!!

 

Not quite sure how we can re-invent learning consequences for our current school children and teen yobs.

[pearl]

Social deprivation is not the only reason for crime.

 

We live in a decent area in a niceish town - and yet I dread this time of year when the weather gets warm - we have teens running riot in the park behind us, riding their scooters and motorbikes all over the grass and drinking into the small hours. Two playgrounds have been continually vandalised and the equipment in both has been set on fire which means the whole place had to be closed for months while it was fixed. The phone boxes near us are hardly ever intact. These aren't socially deprived youngsters, just people who get their kicks from committing mindless acts of vandalism - for the sheer hell of it. What to do about them?

 

I think alcohol plays a big part.

 

K x

 

Yup, like that round us too. Our garden backs onto woods - JP spotted a fire there a couple of years back. When the fire brigade investigated they found a shed someone had built with drug taking paraphenalia inside! This was 20 yards from my home & I'd no idea! Yet it is still a "nice" area compared to where I grew up.

[Canopus]

But on the other hand, we spent 5 years on ASBO Alley: police every Fri and Sat at least for fights outside our house (sometimes between gangs of youngsters, sometimes between the women for some reason even more than the men??), a drug/alcohol related death, stolen car set alight that then exploded, garages burnt down, constant (and I mean constant) screaming, swearing, mini motorbikes, LOUD music, kids from about 18 months just allowed to roam outside often in nothing but a t-shirt...and now we hear that there have been two stabbings there last week.

 

Part of the problem is that the police are not always part of the community that they serve. A friend lives in Brent in London where barely a week goes by without a stabbing taking place. Last year the shopkeeper of the shop she bought her fags from was stabbed to death shortly after closing the shop at midnight, and the police appear to have given up trying to find the murderer.

 

Social deprivation is not the only reason for crime.

 

We live in a decent area in a niceish town - and yet I dread this time of year when the weather gets warm - we have teens running riot in the park behind us, riding their scooters and motorbikes all over the grass and drinking into the small hours. Two playgrounds have been continually vandalised and the equipment in both has been set on fire which means the whole place had to be closed for months while it was fixed. The phone boxes near us are hardly ever intact. These aren't socially deprived youngsters, just people who get their kicks from committing mindless acts of vandalism - for the sheer hell of it. What to do about them?

 

Exactly. I'm fed up with people blaming street crime and yob culture on poverty. I live in an affluent area of Hampshire that is becoming blighted by yobs, delinquents, and people exhibiting lager lout behaviour.

 

I think alcohol plays a big part.

 

Maybe. Do a search with Google on a banned form of entertainment popular in the early 1990s and it becomes apparent that the reason for the ban was to increase alcohol sales.