Detentions - do they work for the ASD child

[Daisydot]

My son is in Year 7 at school. He is DX with high functioning ASD. He was doing fairly well, then all of a sudden about 3-4 weeks ago he started getting after school detentions. He has had 4 in the past 4 weeks. The school just say its for unacceptable behaviour but are never specific. We get a very nicely typed letter, and our son never really knows what he has done to warrant the detention. So far we have gone along with the school, but my instinct is telling me that the detentions are not teaching him anything or helping his behaviour improve. I wondered what others feelings on ASD amd school detentions are. Do they help or not ? We have a meeting with the SENCO in a couple of weeks (just an update) and I would like to be able to discuss these detentions. I have noticed that whenever he gets Merits or House points, he doesnt bother to record them in his home school book - he doesnt seem "proud" of them. Can anyone shed any light on that as well, as when I was a kid if you got a housepoint or a gold star on your work you were banging on about it to your parents for weeks !

 

Thanks for any advice.

[jb1964]

The school just say its for unacceptable behaviour but are never specific.

 

Hi Daisydot,

 

Don't really have any advice but I know my daughter would struggle with their explanation - if she didn't have a specific reason given - she wouldn't know what she has done wrong and could therefore definitely not learn from it - this would probably cause a big meltdown for her.

 

Take care,

Jb

[puffin]

I think that you should make an appointment to see the head to find out what is going on and how you and the school can work together to resolve the problem since the detentions do not seem to be working

[Special_talent123]

My son is in Year 7 at school. He is DX with high functioning ASD. He was doing fairly well, then all of a sudden about 3-4 weeks ago he started getting after school detentions. He has had 4 in the past 4 weeks. The school just say its for unacceptable behaviour but are never specific. We get a very nicely typed letter, and our son never really knows what he has done to warrant the detention. So far we have gone along with the school, but my instinct is telling me that the detentions are not teaching him anything or helping his behaviour improve. I wondered what others feelings on ASD amd school detentions are. Do they help or not ? We have a meeting with the SENCO in a couple of weeks (just an update) and I would like to be able to discuss these detentions. I have noticed that whenever he gets Merits or House points, he doesnt bother to record them in his home school book - he doesnt seem "proud" of them. Can anyone shed any light on that as well, as when I was a kid if you got a housepoint or a gold star on your work you were banging on about it to your parents for weeks !

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

To be honest i experienced being in detention at school and i didnt understand what i did wrong and mainstream provision was worse they didnt understand me but they dragged me to the head teacher and then he made me do apology to be honest i didnt understand what i did wrong and didnt even know what apologies meant. So i dont think detention really work.

[baddad]

hi daisydot -

 

firstly, find out what 'unacceptable behaviour' means. Your son may be being honest about 'not knowing what he's done' but don't be blind to the fact that at 11 he could be being deliberately 'confused'...

If you don't think the detention sanctions are working, then what do you think would work? You can't expect the school to exempt your son from the expectation of some sort of consequence if he is behaving in a disruptive way or not doing things he's supposed to be doing. If you haven't got anything better to offer (and you've already written off reward schemes for positive behaviour from what you've written) then detention seems reasonable, so long as he knows why. He doesn't need to understand why whatever he is doing is 'wrong' - that can come later. All he needs to know is that XY or Z behaviour will lead to a detention, and worry about 'why' once that's gone in.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

[Special_talent123]

hi daisydot -

 

firstly, find out what 'unacceptable behaviour' means. Your son may be being honest about 'not knowing what he's done' but don't be blind to the fact that at 11 he could be being deliberately 'confused'...

If you don't think the detention sanctions are working, then what do you think would work? You can't expect the school to exempt your son from the expectation of some sort of consequence if he is behaving in a disruptive way or not doing things he's supposed to be doing. If you haven't got anything better to offer (and you've already written off reward schemes for positive behaviour from what you've written) then detention seems reasonable, so long as he knows why. He doesn't need to understand why whatever he is doing is 'wrong' - that can come later. All he needs to know is that XY or Z behaviour will lead to a detention, and worry about 'why' once that's gone in.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

I have reason to believe that this is linked into communication problems. i know someone who hears autistic people swear but she doesnt see it as swearing she sees it a way that there trying communicate and not sure how to. To be honest detention doesn't do any good it never did to me but simply when i moved schools where it was less stressful in a special educational school my behaviour had improved. I didnt understand what i did wrong and it was simply that i struggled to communicate and struggled to understand and struggled to cope in a mainstream setting.

[lynne]

[

 

The child needs to understand what the detention is for. Someone has already said it might be related to his honesty with ASD that comes across from being as being rude.

 

 

My 11 year old son also refuses rewards and is not impressed. However, if you go below the surface level, this is because if he is not expected to get rewards than he will not fail (if that makes sense). Its a self surviving strategy.

 

We have presisted with the reward scheme and when my child achieved the bronze award (which is equal to 30 merrits and silver is 70 merits) is was rewarded well.

 

Also he was the first child in his class to get the silver award.

[Kathryn]

I have noticed that whenever he gets Merits or House points, he doesnt bother to record them in his home school book - he doesnt seem "proud" of them. Can anyone shed any light on that as well, as when I was a kid if you got a housepoint or a gold star on your work you were banging on about it to your parents for weeks !

 

I noticed this with my daughter as well. There seemed to be no connection between the reward and the achievement and it didn't appear to act as an incentive to further effort. Perhaps because the things she got rewards for were things which came easily to her anyway so she didn't need to put any effort in.

 

K x

[NobbyNobbs]

also, ASD children are not completely impervious to social factors. it could be that merits aren't 'good' to get. equally it could be that he doesn't like the attention that they give him (in my school we had to produce our homework diary for it to be signed).

 

another thing could be if he is in an ability graded class. if he is there is almost always a notable pattern to the class you are in and the merits you are given. in our school the lower ability classes always got credits and merits whatever they did, the top set (which i was in) had to work really hard to get anything. i once asked why this was and was told that i was already doing well, so i didn't need encouraging like the lower classes. in which case he may either resent not being given more and so dismiss them (as i did) or feel they are worth nothing as they are literally given out for writing your name on the page sort of thing.

[chris54]

i know someone who hears autistic people swear but she doesnt see it as swearing she sees it a way that there trying communicate and not sure how to.

 

A bit of a flippant point. All swearing is because the person doing it does not know how to communicate.

 

If you have never heard any swearing then you will not swear, It don't come from nowhere.

 

Back to the point.

 

Any punishment must be associated with the crime. For young children any punishment should be at the at the time of the the rule infringement so the child knows what it for.

The same may be true for a person with ASD.

For children who can understand, a delayed punishment should be explained and what it is for.

As has been said it is not important that a child understand the why, only what the consequences will be if rules are broken.

Of course you may find that a child who questions the why will understand the explanation to some extent.

[Special_talent123]

A bit of a flippant point. All swearing is because the person doing it does not know how to communicate.

 

If you have never heard any swearing then you will not swear, It don't come from nowhere.

 

 

flippant is not a word to me. and i do agree i think swearing is because we are trying to communicate and we dont understand how to communicate im not on about non autistics im on about auties/aspies and we find it harder to communicate.

Look we all have our own opinions and we all agree or disagree in something in life. I happen to agree with what was said because you know what i do struggle to communicate myself that is a fact of life.

 

punishment doesnt work in my opinion but rewards are better

[baddad]

flippant is not a word to me. and i do agree i think swearing is because we are trying to communicate and we dont understand how to communicate im not on about non autistics im on about auties/aspies and we find it harder to communicate.

Look we all have our own opinions and we all agree or disagree in something in life. I happen to agree with what was said because you know what i do struggle to communicate myself that is a fact of life.

 

punishment doesnt work in my opinion but rewards are better

 

Hi IHUA -

 

I think the point being made was that swearing/frustration is not a relationship unique to the autistic community. Neither is struggling to communicate.

I absolutely believe that sanction/reward in tandem are ultimately the root of ALL successful behaviour modification programmes. In fact : 'rewards are better' is a form of sanction, because if the 'reward' isn't forthcoming there is a sanction/loss involved. There's an old saying, 'you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar'... mostly i'd agree with that, but there are times when honey isn't available or the flies are so out of control you need to dispense with the honey AND the vinegar and just get out a damn great swat! Also, you might just find you're dealing with a vinegar fly (Drosphila Melanogaster), and they have no interest in honey, honey, whatsoever

 

L&P

 

BD

[chris54]

All swearing is because the person doing it does not know how to communicate.

The point I was trying to make is that swearing is something that you learn. A child hears others using word that shock and thinks it will be a good idea to do the same. If that child is not exposed to that then no matter what may wrong with them or how frustrated they are they will not swear. You have to know the swear words in order to use them.

 

Most people who swear in the normal course of conversation, do so out of ignorance.

[Canopus]

My son is in Year 7 at school. He is DX with high functioning ASD. He was doing fairly well, then all of a sudden about 3-4 weeks ago he started getting after school detentions. He has had 4 in the past 4 weeks. The school just say its for unacceptable behaviour but are never specific. We get a very nicely typed letter, and our son never really knows what he has done to warrant the detention. So far we have gone along with the school, but my instinct is telling me that the detentions are not teaching him anything or helping his behaviour improve.

 

I find this very distressing and you need to intervene now. Punishments and sanctions issued without reason or explanation are very unjust and are ineffective at improving one's behaviour or reducing repeat offences. Bland descriptions of unacceptable behaviour is not good enough and you need to find out exactly what it is.

 

another thing could be if he is in an ability graded class. if he is there is almost always a notable pattern to the class you are in and the merits you are given. in our school the lower ability classes always got credits and merits whatever they did, the top set (which i was in) had to work really hard to get anything. i once asked why this was and was told that i was already doing well, so i didn't need encouraging like the lower classes. in which case he may either resent not being given more and so dismiss them (as i did) or feel they are worth nothing as they are literally given out for writing your name on the page sort of thing.

 

Something similar happened at my residential school. Privileges were given out for best improvement in behaviour rather than best behaviour. This resulted in many well behaved kids getting nothing because there was little margin for improvement whilst kids with worse behaviour were being pampered just because they stopped doing certain bad things.

 

[Special_talent123]

i give up im not saying it again cos your really are making a big deal out of it. communication problems is part of the autistic spectrum.

[chris54]

Any punishment must be associated with the crime.

 

I have used the word "Punishment" , perhaps penalty would be a better word. I have always found it better to reward good behaviour and withdrew that reward as a punishment for unacceptable behaviour.

 

It is hard to know what Punishments a school is supposed to use. When I was a child the main deterrent for not miss behaving was not getting the cane, it was the fact that my mum would find out and there would be all hell to pay at home.

If I had gone home and said that the teacher had smacked me (They did in them days) I would have got two from my mum, One for doing whatever it was I got smacked for and one for telling on the teacher.

 

How things have changed.

If detentions don't work, what else is there. I know at my sons school they have this sort of reward thing where once as a class they have so many point (Cant think what they call them) The whole class gets half a day of free time. trouble with that is that my son would rather do the normal class work.

 

And all these merits points and badges, they give out don't seem to mean much to him.

 

The thing that does work is him wanting the teachers to be pleased with him, praise.

[Daisydot]

Thanks everyone for your feedback, replies and points of view.

 

I don't disagree with my son having detentions per se, for example his mobile went off in class (he had it that day because he was doing an after school club). There is an absolute rule that mobiles cant be on at school under any circumstances and he broke that rule, and understood that he had broken the rule and therefore a detention was given out and he understood why.

 

From reading everyone's replies I will definitely bring this whole subject up with the school at the earlist opportunity and ask them to ensure that if it he is given a detention then then it is clearly explained to him, and us, what particular behaviour the detention is being given for.

 

 

[JsMum]

 

 

I would also request more support and look at what level of special educational needs provision he is accessing, I would also want to know if there is any warnings for him before he gets a detention, so he has an opportunity to self control his behaviour, also if he is been treated unfairly due to his communication and language impairments they may need to review the detention status for pupils with a disability, not saying children with a disability shouldnt be punished, but if he is getting more detentions than his peers than this needs to be investigated.

 

JsMumxxxx

 

[JsMum]

I found this in a booklet about disaplin in schools, it does stipulate recognising children with a special need.

 

16. The law safeguards children?s and parents? legitimate rights, and ensures reasonable limits on detention for children who misbehave. Schools do not have an unqualified right to impose detention: detentions must be reasonable and proportionate to the offence. Detentions may only be imposed by a head teacher or another teacher specifically or generally authorised to do so. Staff should take account of:

 the child?s age;

 any special educational needs;

 any religious requirements; and

 whether the parent can reasonably arrange for a child to get home from school after the detention.

 

To have a further read the link is in the gov.

 

http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/behaviourandattenda...0Discipline.doc

 

I would defo arrange a meeting to discuss the situation with the repetative detentions.

 

JsMumxxx

 

[JsMum]

 

 

The Age of the child is an important one to consider, especially with ASD/ADHD as with my own son his developmental age is a lot younger than his biolgical age, so there is things to consider with developmental impaintments.

 

JsMumxxx

 

[Daisydot]

Thing is, although my son has a diagnosis of ASD, he is in a mainstream school, getting average grades and has quite a few friends. The school have been very helpful in the transition from primary school and the school is known locally for excellent behaviour. I dont want to undermine the school but just want to get the right balance of discipline and reward which takes his needs into account and also from which he can learn and benefit.

 

 

I am visiting special schools for my other son tomorrow, so may ask them what their policies on detention are.

 

 

[Daisydot]

Now to add confusion to matters, my son has come home tonight having completed an after school detention saying he likes them!!!!! He says some of the older children pull funny faces and do silly things when the teacher isnt looking (so I predict that sometime soon in the future my son will do this whilst the teacher IS looking and get caught). He says all his friends go too and he doesnt mind because some of the teachers let them talk.

 

So, whatever the detentions are achieving, they are not acting as a deterrent.

 

 

 

 

[chris54]

When we had detentions at school we were allowed to do our home work.

 

A friend of mine when at school lived a long way away from school and had to get the school bus.

If he got a detention they had to get a taxi to take him home afterwards which meant he got home earlier than by school bus which went all round the houses.

Needless to say he would often get a detection.

 

 

[av16]

Hello Daisy Dot - my son is in Yr 7 and has had very similar problems, things escalated really badly after Christmas so I asked for an appointment with the headteacher. We have an agreement now that any detention given will as far as possible be done on the same day (he was really confused by punishment being up to 4 weeks later), I am to be sent a text to let me know. He will not do Saturday detentions for this reason as there is only one each half term- he doesn't know this though. He has also been provided with his own copy of the school's behaviour policy outlining the steps to getting a detention.

He is also getting some rewards in the form of cards sent home - he seems to like this more than merits. Things are alot better - only one detention in weeks - for not doing his homework. He was at the stage of getting one every other day.

He still isn't in classes where he has issues -with the teachers/subjects but this is down to 3 subjects a week whereas he was only in 3 subjects 6 weeks ago. He has 1:1 support for most of the time to remind him about behaviour - using a visual reminder - jester card.

 

I'm not saying things are perfect but they are a hundred times better so I would urge you to meet with the HT if necessary and ask them to 'analyse' the unacceptable behaviour to see if there are any patterns. This should then help them to put the right support in place.

 

Good luck

AV

[puffin]

Now to add confusion to matters, my son has come home tonight having completed an after school detention saying he likes them!!!!! He says some of the older children pull funny faces and do silly things when the teacher isnt looking (so I predict that sometime soon in the future my son will do this whilst the teacher IS looking and get caught). He says all his friends go too and he doesnt mind because some of the teachers let them talk.

 

So, whatever the detentions are achieving, they are not acting as a deterrent.

 

 

This is something that I would be concerned about - and something that a risk of a school using multiple indiscriminate detentions - that your son may start to percieve the behaviour of the others as his friends and start to copy their behaviour as many ASD kids copy what others are doing as they see everyone laugh and think that this is how to behave to be "one of the gang"

 

We have had a long and torrid experience of this with DD1/AS 13 - the local authority came up with the brilliant idea (NOT) of placing all of the ASD/EBD/ADHD kids in the same class - the result was chaos and DD1 started to copy this behaviour in order to "fit in". ( a little OT but we also found a huge gender bias - when the boys did something the teachers rollled their eyes in a boys will be boys manner - whereas when the girls did the same thing it was treated as a major crisis). The result was than after a year the class has reduced from 24 to just 13 pupils and only 2 girls. When DD1 left to go to the SEN unit her behaviour improved dramatically - but the class was just the same despite the fact that the head threw huge amounts of resources at the class.

 

 

[SandraB]

This is something that I would be concerned about - and something that a risk of a school using multiple indiscriminate detentions - that your son may start to percieve the behaviour of the others as his friends and start to copy their behaviour as many ASD kids copy what others are doing as they see everyone laugh and think that this is how to behave to be "one of the gang"

 

We have had a long and torrid experience of this with DD1/AS 13 - the local authority came up with the brilliant idea (NOT) of placing all of the ASD/EBD/ADHD kids in the same class - the result was chaos and DD1 started to copy this behaviour in order to "fit in". ( a little OT but we also found a huge gender bias - when the boys did something the teachers rollled their eyes in a boys will be boys manner - whereas when the girls did the same thing it was treated as a major crisis). The result was than after a year the class has reduced from 24 to just 13 pupils and only 2 girls. When DD1 left to go to the SEN unit her behaviour improved dramatically - but the class was just the same despite the fact that the head threw huge amounts of resources at the class.

DaisyDot, it also sounds to me (having done a little teaching) as though your son is enjoying being part of his peer group - some of the class, perhaps quite a lot, are playing up and he may be enjoying being accepted by them, and being detained with the others consolidates his status as one of the group. So that's tricky to handle. You need to know if it is one particular teacher, and if so, what support that teacher is being given by the school - because if he or she is helped to deal with the main class troublemakers in a way which they DON'T enjoy then the whole problem will be solved. The Head of Department - eg Maths or English - may need to step in. If several teachers are giving detentions to this class, then you need to talk to the form teacher, who will be well aware that things are going badly. If this is a school with generally good behaviour then they should be able to sort it out.

Good luck

 

[Sally44]

Two things I wanted to comment on is:

Firstly what is he getting the detentions for. If it is anything associated with his diagnosis then the school needs to look into what they can do to address that rather than just hand out punishments. For example, a child might keep repeatedly try to talk to the teacher in class to the extent that they get a detention. However if the child has not learnt to wait, and waiting is part of his difficulties because he has problems with working memory or auditory memory and therefore feels he has to speak immediately or he will forget what he wants to say, then the detention is not right as he has a difficulty in that area. The Ed Psych and SALT should be contacted by school and some kind of support introduced, or a programme to improve memory etc.

Secondly many children on the spectrum can begin to show bad bahaviour in class so that they get a predictable outcome. Anxiety is very high for these children and sometimes in class, if they are confused, or don't understand what they should be doing, they know that if they do a certain thing it will mean they are removed from the class and sent to the head teacher. Or if detentions are at break times, which is typically times when they struggle, they may again get detentions so that they can go to the library at breaktime for detention rather than having to go out and mix with the other children. Again this behaviour is due to a lack of understand and support in school.

Or, as mentioned above, detentions might be fun places. He might feel other children begin to accept him more if he is naughty, these are all reinforcing bad behaviour, but for the child on the spectrum they might be getting some kind of social success for the first time through these bad behaviours.

Also copying words and actions is common in those that are autistic because they don't have the social understanding as part of their diagnosis. The hear some words said, or see another child do something and they see what the outcome of that was. If they see a child behave badly because another child has said something to them or hit them, the autistic child is likely to copy that behaviour when something similar happens to him because he doesn't have the language or social skills to know of any other alternative.

Alot of children used delayed echolalia. This can be words/phrases they have heard people say or from TV or DVDs, and they will use them in a similar emotional context. For example a child was put on detention for swearing at his teacher when the teacher had been insistent that he finished his work in class. The child replied "go to hell leutenent". When his parents found out, they know that this phrase was from a film he had watched called "the Dam Busters", and that phrase had been said when the captain had been pushing the soldier to do something he didn't want. So for the autistic child, that has problems with communication, that would seem like an appropriate thing to say as the emotions behind the two scenarios was the same.

[Daisydot]

Thank you Sally, the above reply is just briliant - really helpful.

 

I dont think he has a problem socially, as he has quite a few friends both from his primary school and new ones he's made since starting this school. I do, however, believe he sometimes plays the class clown to get what he sees as positive attention from others in the class (ie laughing). He has recently had an expressive language test and we await the results of that. I had never considered that he might be behaving badly on purpose to get a predictable outcome.

 

We started him on fish oils again about 2 weeks ago, as we had used these when he was in year 3. Fingers crossed, but he does seem much calmer this week and we have had no detentions at all. He has also made a lovely pasta salad in cookery today and we havent had the salad cream on the head when he came home - that we had two weeks ago.

 

 

[baddad]

Hi daisy dot...

 

I'd agree with much of what sally 44 says, but she has overlooked one possibility - that he is getting detentions for misbehaving. As he's

all of a sudden about 3-4 weeks ago he started getting after school detentions. He has had 4 in the past 4 weeks

then that seems far more likely than anything related specifically to autism (although that could, of course, be a complicating factor), because for the previous two or three years he wasn't getting school detentions (unless of course his autism has only happened in the past 3 - 4 weeks and was not therefore a factor previously).

Not everything happens because our children are autistic - they are children too.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Sally44]

baddad: although I understand what you are saying, children on the spectrum devleop and change as do NT kids. Infact children can improve so much they lose a diagnosis. So what behaviour is applicable at one time may not apply a month down the line, or a difficulty might disappear, or a new difficulty appear.

 

There are some children who do have a better understanding, and who may just be being naughty. But we really have to examine the child's behaviour and delve into what their difficulties are before we decide if they are being autie or nautie. And they can never have a 'perfect' understanding of the situation to the level that we do if they have a diagnosis of an ASD, because if they did have that level of understanding then they should lose the diagnosis.

 

If the child is behaving badly because it makes other children laugh, he needs to be taught through something like Social Stories about how to behave in class. Can we expect him to understand why Tom and Jerry or the Chuckle Brothers is funny, but when he does something similar he is bad? We understand that they are two different social situations. Does he?

 

(An example of something my son did - background info: we rent out a field and in that field is a pond). One Saturday he was in the field with his sister and two other kids from the neighbourhood. My son asked the other children to push him into the pond, and they obliged - even his sister! Now my son cannot swim, and luckily this pond wasn't that deepthat he could drown. But he did go completely under the water in November!!. When I asked him 'why did you do that'. He said he had seen it on TV and that it had been funny. So he had been trying to play with the other kids and make them laugh and he tried to do that by doing something he had already seen that he knew other children thought was funny. He didn't see that it was potentially dangerous. And interestingly, the other children (and his sister) did not think that they had done anything wrong because he had asked them to do it!

[Daisydot]

 

 

Thanks for your answer Sally 44

 

Baddad:

 

It is absolutely possible my son is just being naughty and the asd has nothing to do with his behaviour in class. It is also quite possible that the behaviour has everything to do with the ASD. He has been diagnosed with ASD for approx. 4 years and we have had problems with behaviour right from a small child. The behaviour is nothing new to us, but secondary school and detentions are where he is concerned. He is our eldest son and, as I have absolutely no previous experience of autism. I was asking the forum for opinions on whether detentions are an effective tool for a person with asd, or whether they cause more problems than they solve. He only started getting detentions 3-4 weeks ago, because he is in a new school, in Year 7, and detentions were not given out at his previous (primary) school. The transition to secondary school went very well to start off with - far better than we had dared hoped, given the problems we had experienced during other transition years in primary. Therefore I was puzzled when a few weeks ago, he got lots of denetions all of a sudden after having none at all. Of course, another possible is that the scondary school "holds off" giving out detentions to the Year 7s whilst they settle in - and then starts giving them out in the second half of the year. Our other son has ASD and severe language difficulties and has had excellent behaviour all the way through school.

 

"Not everything happens because our children are autistic - they are children too." Two points:

 

1. I for one endeavour to understand my children's autism in as much depth as best I can and I certainly do not have a hope in hell of understanding whether or not things happen because he is autistic - unless I question and try to understand everything.

 

2. My children were children before they both received ASD diagnoses.

 

Incidentally, I work in a Pupil Referral Unit and I see many children on a daily basis with severe behaviour problems and / or special needs far and away beyond my son's difficulties. I am well aware of the detention and merit methods to try to get positive behaviour outcomes, but do believe that they are not appropriate for all children. The Borough I work for have undertaken research which has shown that a high proportion of children in SEBD schools have underlying special needs which have often not been diagnosed or properly diagnosed and there is a high proportion of people with ASD or AS or non specific language difficulties in our EBD schools. So, I am absolutely determined that I am going to understand my son's difficulties and support him way before things get that far.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Daisydot

[baddad]

Thanks for your answer Sally 44

 

Baddad:

 

It is absolutely possible my son is just being naughty and the asd has nothing to do with his behaviour in class. So, I am absolutely determined that I am going to understand my son's difficulties and support him way before things get that far.

 

 

absolutely which is why I said that autism could be a contributing factor.

It does seem unlikely to be the only factor, though, when he has been successfully attending since September without getting detentions...

My son went through a similar 'blip' when they went back after Christmas. Nothing obvious had changed at school or home, so my assumption was that the 'honeymoon period' was over and he was testing the boundaries, spreading his wings and so were the other kids in his year and that they were influencing each other. That has nothing to do with autism whatsoever, but is a very, very predictable and 'normal' behaviour for all (autistic/Nt/whatever) children starting at a new school...

At no point did I say that Sally 44's observations were 'wrong' - i just said she had not considered one aspect that was (IMO) actually more likely...

 

i've said many many times on forum why I think reward/sanction are ultimately the only things that modify behaviour (even when they're wrapped in bells and ribbons to look like something else) so won't go into that again

 

L&P

 

BD

[baddad]

baddad: although I understand what you are saying, children on the spectrum devleop and change as do NT kids. Infact children can improve so much they lose a diagnosis.

 

High sally - haven't got time to respond to all of your post at the mo, but will when I hget time.

Meanwhile:

No, children cannot improve so much that they lose a diagnosis...

 

Children who have been hastily and wrongly diagnosed may, 'lose' the label that has been inappropriately applied. I think we're going to see lots of that in the next ten years or so - but it's not a good reflection on either the medical professionals who made those diagnosis or those contributing to the assessment (assuming that this is based on evidence provided rather than only direct observation).

 

L&P

 

BD

 

and a quick 'addendum' in response to your example.... you have stated that the other three children involved 'did not see anything wrong in their actions', and thats my whole point they behaved like children! If those same children had been diagnosed with autism a completely different conclusion would have been reached - that they 'did not see anything wrong in their actions' because they were autistic and incapable of understanding the implications. You make a completely different set of assumptions to the same scenario purely and simply because of the diagnosis - it is the 'interactional paradigm' and actually says far more about the preconceptions of the viewer than it does about the motivations/status/understanding of the actor.

Look for the 'human' reason first, and if that can't explain the behaviour then look at the other factors (which would include autism). Looking at 'autism' first places the autistic person outside of the human race and puts them into the category of 'other'... they are exactly the barriers that every parent should be looking to tear down, not to reinforce. It might be a snappy concept for a book title but my son is not an 'alien' on the playground - he is first and foremost a child, just like all the other children there, and while some of the kids might be tall/short/black/white/fair/dark/autistic/neurotypical that is a facet of who they are, not the whole story.

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited March 28, 2009 by baddad

[westie]

Do the school send home (or put on internet) a list of the rules that if broken lead to detention, so that parents (of all kids) can explain in a way their child will hopefully understand???

 

I also agree that the school do need to be a bit more specific in explaining the reason for the detention, rather than saying "unacceptable behaviour" is the reason for a detention, otherwise how can you as a parent understand whether they are being "naughty" or it is related to their "disability" and therefore can intervene and discuss with the school a more appropriate way of tackling/ preventing it happening in the future, if perhaps the "punishment" is for something that is related to their own difficulties.

 

Sometimes it might be related to issues with communication, social skills, organisation skills and I think that they should be working with the parents to help the child with these issues.

 

I have been told that the local secondary school (mainstream) here gives out homework 4 times a week or so, and enforce detention if it is not handed in. My son often (after much effort on both our parts, and by that I am NOT saying I do it for him but rather have to help him plan and keep him on task as everything seems to be a distraction) takes homework to school and then forgets to hand it in. I suppose that if the teacher actually asked for it then he would give it to them. He also has other issues around organisation skills which I have posted on this forum about, and I am reading and trying things myself, and also seeking help and advice from school, as well as asking GP for referral to CAMHS. I am also going to look at this local school and other ones and see which will best meet his needs. This is on my mind a lot now, and selecting a school which will suit him (he wants to go to this local school as his peers will be there but things I am hearing make me uncertain as to whether he will fit in there) . If we do not help him with these things now and (if he still having difficulties even with input from now) they then keep putting him in detention will that help him, or will his anger issues (that we have worked on for almost 7yrs before seeing any significant and longer lasting progress) then resurface and he gets excluded???

 

If any child had received that many detentions over a short space of time you would think that school would bring the parents in to discuss it with them and try to find a solution... Have the school done this??

 

And giving a detention 4 weeks later???? How is any kid supposed to relate their "punishment" to their actions??

I am sure most behavioural books I have read (and professionals who have advised me) have said that if sanctions are made, they must be as soon as possible and achievable (i.e. you are grounded FOREVER probably not really effective you will be worn down before they are, and so in effect you are saying something but not properly enforcing it)With my son, I usually ban him from TV, PC and playing with friend next door for that evening, or if it is related to a task he has failed to do like homework or tidying then I say not until he has done it (he usually does it the same day so again it must be working to some degree). And then he has a "new day" the next day to try and behave positively so that he can do the things he likes when he is home.

 

Another tip I find useful is to let him choose the time he is going to do the work (within limits, i.e. not at 8.20pm when his bedtime is 8.30pm so he would have no chance of finishing!) and so when it does get to that time and he starts protesting, I say "well this is when you have chosen to do the homework, so if you dont want to do it then okay but you cant play on computer, tv or go out and play till you have finished it. He knows I would stick to this, so he tends to do it, though I still have to be with him keeping him focused on completing the task again something I am trying to find a way to overcome....

 

[Sally44]

To Westie: Have a look at Executive Function Disorder. I found a really good link previously, I think it was called school behaviour.com. And it listed all of the executive functions by skill, and it became pretty obvious how some children with these types of difficulties with find it hard to plan, organise, set goals, sequence, organise time - or even have an understanding of time. You might find it helpful.

[Sally44]

I don't see a child as being a child first with autism added on. I see the child as autistic. Autism is pervasive and affects every aspect of language, social communication and behaviour. But that doesn't mean I am always allowing my child to get away with bad behaviour because he is autistic. I look at what happened, and I try, as much as I can, to get an answer from my son as to what he did and why. Many times, when the rules are explained to him, or he is told that a certain behaviour is unacceptable, he will comply because he likes rules. Sometimes the right way to do something has to demonstrated to him by his dedicated TA a number of times before he gets it right. But rules and routine help him make sense of things. However, alot of what school call bad behaviour is down to the school not understanding how the autistic child thinks. And every child will be affected by autism in different ways.

 

Regarding the term 'aliens'. I spend more than 7 years living abroad and I know how it feels to be in a country where you don't understand the language or culture. And when you are in that situation you do begin to show autistic behaviours yourself simply because you cannot communicate. You seek one to one dialogue and not group conversations. You avoid conversations because you frequently misunderstand what is said to you, or you say something wrong and everyone looks puzzled or laughs at you. You cannot concentrate on a conversation for more than a couple of minutes because listening to a language you don't understand takes such intense concentration that after a few minutes you get a headache. You take their cultural sayings literally with bizzare outcomes! And you begin to seek out others like you ie. foreigners. Eventually I did learn the language, and I remember how happy I was when I understood the first joke at the time it was said (and not when I had processed it some 5 minutes later). So maybe 'aliens' is the wrong word, but I believe someone with ASD is a 'foreigner' in their own language and culture.

 

Going back a year I had a problem in his primary school because, firstly they said that my son would not pay attention in class. In the school they had knocked two classrooms together and had divided it with only a curtain. So around 60+ children were being taught different subjects by different teachers and TAs. And although, as part of his diagnosis, it states that my son has Sensory Integration Disorder (which includes over sensitivity to noise), they seemed to think that he was at fault for misbehaving in class by covering his ears, getting under the table, banging his head on the wall, trying to leave the room, not following instructions. When infact they were at fault because they had received three reports stating he had SID and how it affected him. I had sent in a written letter stating that I thought it was inappropriate for my son to be in that classroom because he would struggle in that environment. So, in that instance, I was not prepared to allow them to dole out any punishment to my son for their ignorance.

 

On another occasion, in this same school, the children would do different topics on different tables, and would move tables when they changed topic. This caused no end of confusion to my son because he always tried to keep 'his chair' and move it to the next table and would throw a tantrum if another child took his chair. Again I was called into school. At that stage I hadn't had the private reports I got later, and at that time he was getting virtually no support in school. I now know that he has Semantic Pragmatic Speech Disorder, Auditory Processing Disorder, is Echolalic, has Auditory Memory and Working Memory difficulties as well as SID and Irlen Syndrome, problems with some executive functions, difficulties with comprehension and inference. So, in the middle of this classroom chaos, was a child who literally did not understand a thing he was supposed to be doing and the only order he could get was to claim his chair and stick with that throughout the day - and they tried to punish him for that. Since I moved him to a school that has experience of teaching children with ASDs, and he is fully supported, and has the right amount of therapies from SALT etc, this behaviour (which I would put down to severe difficulties with language, rigid thinking and anxiety), has gone. If I had just allowed them to punish him I am sure I would be home teaching him now because he was so anti school that on many days I had to drive him to school and carry him through the door. That was not the behaviour of a happy child. And there seems to be this thinking that that type of behaviour is 'typical of a diagnosis of ASD', which I totally disagree with.

 

Parents should not be left in a situation where their children are demonstrating bad behaviour at home or in school because school cannot do the job they are supposed to be doing. I don't completely blame the school. It is always down to LEA funding, but I am sick of having to swallow the LEAs latest educational craze or mantra as to what they think is right for my child. If I decide that an autism only school would suit him best, I would like one to be available. There isn't one in my area. All the special schools are slowly being closed down because 'inclusion' is the way forward. Well my experience of inclusion was that they didn't include my son at all. And if my son could 'learn' from his peer group (or his family for that matter) he wouldn't be on the autistic spectrum.

 

My son used to get so anxious about things, that just the mention of the subject would cause him to vomit. He wasn't putting his fingers down his throat, or anything like that. It was similar to the fight or flight response, or the urinating when scared. He would throw up within a second. That wasn't learnt behaviour, that was fear. Thankfully that has now gone, which in itself proves the level of anxiety he previously had.

 

Sorry, I seem to have gone off on a tangent and have just been venting. But I would love many so called professionals to come and live my life and then see what changes they would make.

[westie]

Thanks Sally I will have a look, if you remember where you saw info that would be great. I have read a little about executive functioning but the info I saw didnt really explain how I could help... Have looked at lots of ADHD sites, and many people on the forum gave some useful advice in their responses to my post about my concerns as well.

 

It is worrying thinking that your child may be punished for something they cant help/ cope with and that they have had no help to deal with (and by that I mean recognising and understanding needs such as sensory etc and finding ways round that, or being honest and recognising they cant meet needs and then the LEA letting the child go to a school which better meets their needs.

 

I read another post on a different thread about the wording on statement, and vague woolly statements not meaning much and my sons current statement is a bit like that and think when his does need changing after his annual review in Nov (to reflect needs on transfering) I am going to ensure the wording is not so woolly and that the help he needs is clearly stated on the statement, so that if the statement is not adhered to then they will have to explain why!

Edited March 28, 2009 by westie

[Sally44]

Westie: follow this link http://schoolbehaviour.com/conditions_edfoverview.htm

very simple and informative.

[Sally44]

Westie: for some reason it keeps diverting to another site.

Google: 'Executive Function Disorder', and then click on the site that has the above webpage. On my computer it is on the first page listing.

[alexmum2]

My son is in Year 7 at school. He is DX with high functioning ASD. He was doing fairly well, then all of a sudden about 3-4 weeks ago he started getting after school detentions. He has had 4 in the past 4 weeks. The school just say its for unacceptable behaviour but are never specific. We get a very nicely typed letter, and our son never really knows what he has done to warrant the detention. So far we have gone along with the school, but my instinct is telling me that the detentions are not teaching him anything or helping his behaviour improve. I wondered what others feelings on ASD amd school detentions are. Do they help or not ? We have a meeting with the SENCO in a couple of weeks (just an update) and I would like to be able to discuss these detentions. I have noticed that whenever he gets Merits or House points, he doesnt bother to record them in his home school book - he doesnt seem "proud" of them. Can anyone shed any light on that as well, as when I was a kid if you got a housepoint or a gold star on your work you were banging on about it to your parents for weeks !

 

Thanks for any advice.

My son never lets me know if he has had any house points I seem to find out by accident; dont know if he is proud of them or not or if he just forgets to tell me. Also as for detention it doesn't work for my child because if he is badly behaved there is usually a reason for it! he's been goeded or wound up by others to the point where he can't take anymore but the teacher only sees his bad behavoiur not what went before.